Explorer Thread!

[BimmerM3]

I've been clogging up the Chat Thread with my SUV search and I figured it's about time it gets its own thread.

The situation: I like to hike and I'm planning on moving to Colorado this summer. The S2000 is not particularly great at driving on forest roads or in the snow, so I'm gonna get an SUV. Don't worry, I'm keeping the S2k too.

So I basically need something that can get me to trailheads and through Colorado winters. It will also be used for some road trips and store runs. 

There's no particular rush since I'm not moving for another few months, but I sooner would be nice just so I don't need to rely on others to get to hiking trails so much.

Requirements:
-4WD/AWD
-Manual transmission (Yes, I'm going to be a stickler about this. Yes, I know it's silly. Okay, you guys are convincing. For the sake of being thorough, you may suggest automatics though I reserve the right to complete ignore your suggestions.)
-Under $13,000
-Under 150,000 miles
-Some amount of extra ground clearance

Preferences:
-Closer to (or under!) $10,000
-Closer to (or under!) 100,000 miles
-Long distance comfort
-Most usable cargo room

Obviously, as always, better long term reliability and lower cost of ownership are huge factors.

Potentials:
-2009-2013 Subaru Forester X 5MT - test drove one on Friday (http://tinyurl.com/nrym6ep). It was a pretty nice car. A bit on the slow side (granted, I'm used to the S2k), but otherwise seems like it would fit my needs perfectly. No idea how hard they are to find in manual, so I'm not sure if I should go ahead and consider buying the one in my area. I'll probably talk to the sales guy this week to see how flexible they are on price.
-2003-2008 Subaru Forester XT or XS 5MT - Pretty quick in XT form, handles better than most SUVs. Taller cargo space than the Outback (which is a plus). Difficult to find.
-2003-2009 Subaru Outback XT or XS 5MT - Similar to Forester except less usable cargo space for bigger things. Slightly easier to find, but still difficult.
-Honda Element 4X4 5MT - Not really good enough off road for Rocky Mountains
-pre-2002 Toyota 4Runner 5MT - Looks like they stopped making the manuals in 2002, so I'd have to go pretty old. Keeping them in the search just in case a cheap, lowish mileage one pops up, but not expecting anything.
-2000 Jeep Cherokee 5MT - Drove one yesterday (http://tinyurl.com/nqhwf32). Not particularly impressed. Smaller than I was expecting, the shifter was incredibly vague, and the steering had a lot of play. I did like the engine and the ride pretty well though - went over some railroad tracks and it handled them like a champ. I've pretty much ruled them out unless I find a really cheap example.
-2002-2009 Toyota 4Runner - AT only. More expensive and/or higher mileage.
-Nissan Xterra - apparently there was some sort of overheating issue with the ATs in the 2005-2010 models. Nissan has to cover the issue if it happens, but you still wouldn't want it to happen in the middle of the wilderness. A little cheaper and/or lower mileage than most of the other choices.
-Ford Explorer AT - never really been a huge fan but I suppose Rupert is right that they're pretty capable. Probably the easiest to find around here. The newer ones are huge though.
-Jeep Liberty - Probably not because they're pretty small, but maybe.
-Toyota FJ Cruiser - Probably out of my price range, but maybe.

Anything I could I'm missing? Anything I should watch out for?

[GoCougs]

"Requiring" a manual transmission is an unnecessary restriction IMO. Not only does it add nothing to the SUV driving experience (and can actually detract) there are hardly any available.

Bump up your price point to ~$15-20k and get a previous gen 4Runner with V6. A quick look on Auto Trader shows near countless numbers of of 2006 - 2009 4Runners at $16k - $20k (which means you should be able to easily negotiate to ~$15k) with less than 100,00 miles:

2007 SR5 with V6 and 77,500 miles @ $16,900
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389969383&Log=0

2008 SR5 with V6 and 78,000 miles @ $16,900
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389361654&Log=0

2008 SR5 with V6 and 68,000 miles @ $18,000
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=367178203&Log=0

[Cookie Monster]

WRX hatch?

[hotrodalex]

I would try a 2.0XT Forester. No manual trans, but more power and you won't see a power loss at altitude.

[GoCougs]

I'll add I drive the G37X on lots of gravel roads and I have no issues with ground clearance. Sure I can't fly down them as if in an SUV or truck but I do just fine. I put snow tires on in the winter and that works well too.

If you won't get off the beaten path a (true) SUV is probably gonna be overkill.

[Galaxy]

The first generation Audi allroad (up to 2005) was available with a manual with the 2.7 turbo  V6. It has differential locks, and a transfer case. Might be a Bit older then you would be comfortable in going with though.

[Laconian]

Cherokee's truck-grade manual transmission sucked, color me unsurprised.

[ifcar]

"Requiring" a manual transmission is an unnecessary restriction IMO.

Spoken by the master of unnecessary restrictions.

[Laconian]

Outback's seats are more comfortable than the Forester's.

Mike, how were the seats in the Element?

[68_427]

The first generation Audi allroad (up to 2005) was available with a manual with the 2.7 turbo  V6. It has differential locks, and a transfer case. Might be a Bit older then you would be comfortable in going with though.

Shoving money up his ass would be more pleasant than owning an Allroad

[BimmerM3]

"Requiring" a manual transmission is an unnecessary restriction IMO. Not only does it add nothing to the SUV driving experience (and can actually detract) there are hardly any available.

Bump up your price point to ~$15-20k and get a previous gen 4Runner with V6. A quick look on Auto Trader shows near countless numbers of of 2006 - 2009 4Runners at $16k - $20k (which means you should be able to easily negotiate to ~$15k) with less than 100,00 miles:

2007 SR5 with V6 and 77,500 miles @ $16,900
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389969383&Log=0

2008 SR5 with V6 and 78,000 miles @ $16,900
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389361654&Log=0

2008 SR5 with V6 and 68,000 miles @ $18,000
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=367178203&Log=0

Sure, I'll PM you my address so you can mail me the check for the extra $4k.

WRX hatch?

Too small, I'd prefer more ground clearance, I don't trust that they weren't abused, not actually all that better than the S2k on a road trip. 

If I were getting rid of the S2k and looking for a single car to replace it, they'd be right at the top of my list, but the sportiness isn't really necessary when I have the S2k.

I'll add I drive the G37X on lots of gravel roads and I have no issues with ground clearance. Sure I can't fly down them as if in an SUV or truck but I do just fine. I put snow tires on in the winter and that works well too.

If you won't get off the beaten path a (true) SUV is probably gonna be overkill.

I'm pretty adamant about wanting a bit of extra ground clearance. Some trailheads are down pretty long gravel roads. I don't want to be put-putting down them for hours on end trying to avoid all the potholes.

The first generation Audi allroad (up to 2005) was available with a manual with the 2.7 turbo  V6. It has differential locks, and a transfer case. Might be a Bit older then you would be comfortable in going with though.

Thought about it, but I'm worried about the maintenance costs for an older, high-mileage Audi.

[BimmerM3]

I would try a 2.0XT Forester. No manual trans, but more power and you won't see a power loss at altitude.

They're like 2x my budget?

[GoCougs]

Sure, I'll PM you my address so you can mail me the check for the extra $4k.

I'd bet a nice sum that a lightly/moderately used ~$15k 4Runner is gonna cost less overall (i.e., to own, esp. depreciation) than pretty much any equivalently-capable $10k/100,000+ vehicle you've mentioned thus far save for maybe the Element.

[CALL_911]

Shoving money up his ass would be more pleasant than owning an Allroad

[Rupert]

I'll add I drive the G37X on lots of gravel roads and I have no issues with ground clearance. Sure I can't fly down them as if in an SUV or truck but I do just fine. I put snow tires on in the winter and that works well too.

If you won't get off the beaten path a (true) SUV is probably gonna be overkill.

Forest roads in Washington and Oregon are tame compared to the Rocky Mountains. Timber money built them very well in that region, and even with low maintenance they hold up. Less timber money in the Rocky Mountains = lower quality = more deterioration with less maintenance. In my vast experience, a sedan will get you to 90%+ of the trailheads in Oregon and Washington (especially within a few hours of Seattle or Portland), but only 50% of the trailheads in the Rocky Mountains.

In other words, I agree with his need for more clearance and 4WD.

[Rupert]

I also think the manual transmission requirement is silly, given that you have the S2k, and especially if your get a modern 5-speed auto. My Explorer is a manual, and I wish it wasn't. Harder to drive off-pavement, not exactly a quick-shifting snick snick box, etc. But, if you're determined to find a stick...

I actually don't know which SUVs do and don't have a stick, so general advice. Yes, clearance is important. More so than 4WD, but I would still be looking for something with either legit 4WD or good AWD (Subaru, pretty much). I don't think you need a hardcore off-roader like the old Cherokee or Wrangler. IRS and no low range should be fine with a little driving care now and then. I would suggest good tires, AT tread and LT type at least, Load Range E preferred (more plies). If you have to buy different wheels to do that, you should. Might also consider skid plates if it's a Subaru. In addition to cargo space, you might also consider sleeping space (fold flat rear seats and enough length).

From that list, I would go with a Forester or 4Runner. You might also consider an Explorer, though manuals are extremely rare in the four-door models and they're old. If you're not dead-set on an SUV, it's not too hard to find Tacomas with manual tranmissions. You could put a cap on the back. If you decide that you don't need a manual after all, the 2003 (2001?) to ? ( ) Explorer is a great rig. I wouldn't look at any cute utes outside the Forester/Outback.

[Cookie Monster]

Don't listen to Rupert and Cougs! I love the manual on my 4Runner. It makes it so much more enjoyable to drive, even with the long throws and notchy shifter. It's surprisingly not vague for being a truck transmission, though.

Honestly your best bet IMO is the 3rd gen 4Runner. Yes, they're older but they're also so damn reliable. I still see tons of 3rd gens and a couple 2nd gens (like mine) running around. IMO the 2nd gen is nicer than the 3rd gen 4Runner (3rd gens got too late-'90's funky for me) but they're still excellent vehicles.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Rendezvous.

[Rupert]

Don't listen to Rupert and Cougs! I love the manual on my 4Runner. It makes it so much more enjoyable to drive, even with the long throws and notchy shifter. It's surprisingly not vague for being a truck transmission, though.

Honestly your best bet IMO is the 3rd gen 4Runner. Yes, they're older but they're also so damn reliable. I still see tons of 3rd gens and a couple 2nd gens (like mine) running around. IMO the 2nd gen is nicer than the 3rd gen 4Runner (3rd gens got too late-'90's funky for me) but they're still excellent vehicles.

But you've never driven your 4Runner in the places he's buying this vehicle to go, so how would you know?. Further, any old car, even and especially an old "super reliable" Toyota (i.e. it's hasn't been well-maintained), is going to have more issues than a newer lower mileage car. Plus of course the silly Toyota premium you pay.

However, 4Runners are good trucks, so I can't argue too much.

[Rupert]

Rendezvous.

Aztec.

[GoCougs]

Don't listen to Rupert and Cougs! I love the manual on my 4Runner. It makes it so much more enjoyable to drive, even with the long throws and notchy shifter. It's surprisingly not vague for being a truck transmission, though.

Honestly your best bet IMO is the 3rd gen 4Runner. Yes, they're older but they're also so damn reliable. I still see tons of 3rd gens and a couple 2nd gens (like mine) running around. IMO the 2nd gen is nicer than the 3rd gen 4Runner (3rd gens got too late-'90's funky for me) but they're still excellent vehicles.

No offense of course but a 4th gen (2003 - 2009) 4Runner is gonna be 100x better vehicle than any 4Runner generation before it, MT or otherwise. Sure no MT but the 4th gen has SO much more hp (70-100 hp, depending) and is so much quicker it's really a non issue. Plus, most notably, 4th gen V6 uses a timing chain.

[BimmerM3]

But you've never driven your 4Runner in the places he's buying this vehicle to go, so how would you know?. Further, any old car, even and especially an old "super reliable" Toyota (i.e. it's hasn't been well-maintained), is going to have more issues than a newer lower mileage car. Plus of course the silly Toyota premium you pay.

However, 4Runners are good trucks, so I can't argue too much.

Are the forest service roads really that bad out there? I plan on being out in the mountains hiking a lot - it's most of the reason I'm moving out there. I know that automatics are generally considered better for proper off-roading, but I figured forest service roads would be alright. The fact that the Forester is smaller and drives more like a car is what attracts me to it compared to a 4Runner or Explorer, but I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a car that really has to be pushed to do what I want it to do on a regular basis.

If I went with the Forester, do you think the NA motor would be powerful enough, even at higher altitude? Or should I really limit myself to the XTs? And it sounds like the Element is pretty much out for the Rocky Mountain area, would you agree? It also doesn't look like there are any all terrain tires on Tire Rack for Foresters, at least in the stock tire size.

One option would be to wait until after I move out there. My dad has an Outback (2008 LL Bean, IIRC) as his second car that he rarely uses in the summer, so I could take it up for some hikes, see how it does, and make a decision from there. There's probably a greater availability out there too. The downside is that I'll have to continue to rely on other people to drive to trails in the meantime, or limit myself to trails that I know will have paved roads. 

[ifcar]

One thing to keep in mind if you stick to the Element idea is that it has pretty low ground clearance -- I think it was the gas tank that was pushed low to make more interior room.

Are you looking at Nissan Xterras? They seem to be somewhat common with a stick, and are of course capable off-road.

And lastly, are you considering four-door pickups in addition to SUVs?

[BimmerM3]

Are you looking at Nissan Xterras? They seem to be somewhat common with a stick, and are of course capable off-road.

I hadn't really, but that might be something to look into. They seem cheaper/lower mileage than the other cars I'm looking at. Any known problems with them?

[AutobahnSHO]

Don't fret too much about the altitude- everyone else's cars suffer the same so you don't notice it all that much.

Otherwise I think you're on the right track, unless you go full-blown SUV or Jeep the Subies are the best. (Element is really not an off-road vehicle.)

[BimmerM3]

And lastly, are you considering four-door pickups in addition to SUVs?

Not really. I'd like to get a dog in a year or two, and I wouldn't want to make a dog ride around in a truck bed in the winter, even with a cover. And I don't really want dog hair in my back seat.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Not really. I'd like to get a dog in a year or two, and I wouldn't want to make a dog ride around in a truck bed in the winter, even with a cover. And I don't really want dog hair in my back seat.

Dog rides in front seat, dude. With the top down. Dogs love convertibles.

[BimmerM3]

Dog rides in front seat, dude. With the top down. Dogs love convertibles.

So much hair though.

[68_427]

My neighbor is on his second current gen xterra manual.  He's never had any issues.  It isn't very refined and drives like a truck but that's what its meant for so...

[Rupert]

Are the forest service roads really that bad out there? I plan on being out in the mountains hiking a lot - it's most of the reason I'm moving out there. I know that automatics are generally considered better for proper off-roading, but I figured forest service roads would be alright. The fact that the Forester is smaller and drives more like a car is what attracts me to it compared to a 4Runner or Explorer, but I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a car that really has to be pushed to do what I want it to do on a regular basis.

If I went with the Forester, do you think the NA motor would be powerful enough, even at higher altitude? Or should I really limit myself to the XTs? And it sounds like the Element is pretty much out for the Rocky Mountain area, would you agree? It also doesn't look like there are any all terrain tires on Tire Rack for Foresters, at least in the stock tire size.

One option would be to wait until after I move out there. My dad has an Outback (2008 LL Bean, IIRC) as his second car that he rarely uses in the summer, so I could take it up for some hikes, see how it does, and make a decision from there. There's probably a greater availability out there too. The downside is that I'll have to continue to rely on other people to drive to trails in the meantime, or limit myself to trails that I know will have paved roads.

I'm not familiar with CO, but I am with UT and ID. The roads aren't great, so if you're buying something for the express purpose of hiking, I would definitely go for not-a-car. I think the Forester would do it in terms of clearance. You're probably not going to need to do any serious off-roading to get places, and even if you do, some finesse with get you there with a manual. The only thing you might think about is the Forester doesn't have a low range, so if you're in a tricky spot, you might have some trouble. However, these are trailheads, not off-road tracks, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I would not worry about the altitude, but power is a preference. Personally, I don't care about it in a car like this. You won't have trouble with not being able to get up stuff if that's what you're worried about. As for tires, yeah, with the Forester, I think you have to get 16" wheels and then get tires to fit. Kind of silly, but entirely worth it. I would say the Element is pretty much out, yeah.

XTerra is a pretty good idea. They're big, though. If money were no object to me, it's probably what I would get (assuming I could sleep in the back ).