Just ordered a Bolt

Started by mzziaz, October 04, 2016, 12:10:43 AM

MX793

Quote from: GoCougs on May 09, 2017, 07:23:45 PM
Could be but why? Power supply/electronics vs. just a connector? I know what 100% of automakers are going to choose 100% of the time. EVs are enough of a money loser for automaker and consumer alike...

There's already considerable power conditioning in a Tesla Model S, seeing as the motors are AC and a battery can only provide DC power.  Not to mention that the onboard electronics, motor controllers, etc don't run on the same voltage as the battery pack and all have built in power conditioning to step the ~400VDC battery voltage down to 12, 5, 3.3, and/or whatever other voltage the processors, FPGAs, CPLDs, and other chips need to work.

Every Tesla car also ships with a portable charging unit, a cable with an inline AC/DC converter and adapter plugs to allow it to plug into either 2-phase 120V/60Hz AC or 3-phase 208/60Hz AC, both of which are "standard" power types in any commercial or residential structure with electric service.  The power brick that is built into this portable charging unit isn't much bigger than the proprietary Tesla connector itself, so packaging something like it into the car would not be difficult at all.  Not a huge leap between providing a power supply in a pouch to allow an owner to connect to a standard power source and just building that functionality into the car.  Particularly once an EV charging "standard" WRT DC voltage and current is established to support uniform recharging infrastructure.
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GoCougs

Quote from: MX793 on May 09, 2017, 08:17:46 PM
There's already considerable power conditioning in a Tesla Model S, seeing as the motors are AC and a battery can only provide DC power.  Not to mention that the onboard electronics, motor controllers, etc don't run on the same voltage as the battery pack and all have built in power conditioning to step the ~400VDC battery voltage down to 12, 5, 3.3, and/or whatever other voltage the processors, FPGAs, CPLDs, and other chips need to work.

Every Tesla car also ships with a portable charging unit, a cable with an inline AC/DC converter and adapter plugs to allow it to plug into either 2-phase 120V/60Hz AC or 3-phase 208/60Hz AC, both of which are "standard" power types in any commercial or residential structure with electric service.  The power brick that is built into this portable charging unit isn't much bigger than the proprietary Tesla connector itself, so packaging something like it into the car would not be difficult at all.  Not a huge leap between providing a power supply in a pouch to allow an owner to connect to a standard power source and just building that functionality into the car.  Particularly once an EV charging "standard" WRT DC voltage and current is established to support uniform recharging infrastructure.

If it's that simple why don't EV makers do that?

The answer is current. Tesla for example moves huge current for its supercharging which at present is a competitive advantage.

MX793

Quote from: GoCougs on May 09, 2017, 09:00:15 PM
If it's that simple why don't EV makers do that?

The answer is current. Tesla for example moves huge current for its supercharging which at present is a competitive advantage.

There is no singular "standard" for EV charging, so the EV makers are using whatever they want.  Sort of like the early days of automobiles when there was no standardized control layout and you had everybody just doing what they thought made sense.  If an industry group, like the SAE, got together and said "OK everybody, the standard charging station will provide 100kW @ 480VDC and use connector type __", every EV maker would then have a bogey and know what power supply they'd need to equip so that their battery pack could utilize that power source, just as they all know what they need to plug into a standard 110/208VAC source today.  No one has settled on that DC charging standard yet.  You've got JDM automakers favoring CHAdeMO, most US and European automakers favoring SAE J1772, and Tesla off doing their own thing.
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93JC

Quote from: MX793 on May 09, 2017, 08:17:46 PM
Every Tesla car also ships with a portable charging unit, a cable with an inline AC/DC converter and adapter plugs to allow it to plug into either 2-phase 120V/60Hz AC or 3-phase 208/60Hz AC, both of which are "standard" power types in any commercial or residential structure with electric service.  The power brick that is built into this portable charging unit isn't much bigger than the proprietary Tesla connector itself, so packaging something like it into the car would not be difficult at all.  Not a huge leap between providing a power supply in a pouch to allow an owner to connect to a standard power source and just building that functionality into the car.  Particularly once an EV charging "standard" WRT DC voltage and current is established to support uniform recharging infrastructure.

The "power brick" is really just a glorified relay and ground fault interruptor. The "charger"—the AC-to-DC rectifier and the controller—is in the car. You could cut the proprietary Tesla plug off the end and put a J1772 on it instead, and it'll work just fine with a Chevy Bolt. The Bolt will tell the connector how much power it can take.

GoCougs

Quote from: MX793 on May 09, 2017, 09:17:51 PM
There is no singular "standard" for EV charging, so the EV makers are using whatever they want.  Sort of like the early days of automobiles when there was no standardized control layout and you had everybody just doing what they thought made sense.  If an industry group, like the SAE, got together and said "OK everybody, the standard charging station will provide 100kW @ 480VDC and use connector type __", every EV maker would then have a bogey and know what power supply they'd need to equip so that their battery pack could utilize that power source, just as they all know what they need to plug into a standard 110/208VAC source today.  No one has settled on that DC charging standard yet.  You've got JDM automakers favoring CHAdeMO, most US and European automakers favoring SAE J1772, and Tesla off doing their own thing.

My point is what they want is specific to what they are doing. Volts ain't just volts, current just ain't current, and batteries just ain't batteries.

The Tesla supercharger outputs DC power at up to 400V and 250A. At that power level connectors, conductors and safety design become very specific to the use of AC vs. DC. Now wash/rinse repeat for different voltage/current/service for what may be varying vehicles types in the future - commuters vs. highway cruisers vs. pickups vs. delivery vehicles, etc.

A common connector and thus charging standard would not only hamstring EV makers, it would be a source of inefficiency, which would be a problem for the grid if EVs ever get an appreciable market share. At this stage it's just not practical to subordinate the core value proposition of an EV to a catch-all standard. At best I predict that there will be a multitude of standards for the various voltage, current and service desires of EVs.

MX793

#65
Quote from: GoCougs on May 09, 2017, 10:50:41 PM
My point is what they want is specific to what they are doing. Volts ain't just volts, current just ain't current, and batteries just ain't batteries.

The Tesla supercharger outputs DC power at up to 400V and 250A. At that power level connectors, conductors and safety design become very specific to the use of AC vs. DC. Now wash/rinse repeat for different voltage/current/service for what may be varying vehicles types in the future - commuters vs. highway cruisers vs. pickups vs. delivery vehicles, etc.

A common connector and thus charging standard would not only hamstring EV makers, it would be a source of inefficiency, which would be a problem for the grid if EVs ever get an appreciable market share. At this stage it's just not practical to subordinate the core value proposition of an EV to a catch-all standard. At best I predict that there will be a multitude of standards for the various voltage, current and service desires of EVs.


You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here.  This ain't rocket surgery, black magic, or advanced electrical circuit design, it's basic power distribution design.  The fact that the current is high doesn't make it next-level or change the physics of the problem.  The math, design, and safety concerns for designing an electrical system to carry 250A are exactly the same as designing one that carries 20A as far as selecting conductor and contact size, number of conductors/contacts, etc.  This "problem" is literally something that a first or second year electrical engineering student can solve.  Most automakers already try to follow an industry standard, like J1772, despite using different battery sizes and voltages.  And if the specs for Tesla's Supercharger became the accepted world standard, they would all have little trouble making their cars compatible with that.  "Standard" also doesn't mean it's fixed in stone for ever and ever.  They could select a "standard" power source, maybe two, and connector type and then in the future, as time and technology march on, append it, as has happened with fuel grades and qualities over the years.

Superchargers run at 480VDC, BTW.  And Euro market Tesla's don't use Tesla's proprietary connector.  They use a standard, IEC 62196 type 2 connector (a standard connector for Euro public EV charging stations) and are still capable of handling supercharger levels of current, so that completely blows the notion that Tesla had to design a proprietary connector because supercharging was so magical and cutting edge that no existing connector would do.
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GoCougs

Quote from: MX793 on May 10, 2017, 05:08:41 AM
You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here.  This ain't rocket surgery, black magic, or advanced electrical circuit design, it's basic power distribution design.  The fact that the current is high doesn't make it next-level or change the physics of the problem.  The math, design, and safety concerns for designing an electrical system to carry 250A are exactly the same as designing one that carries 20A as far as selecting conductor and contact size, number of conductors/contacts, etc.  This "problem" is literally something that a first or second year electrical engineering student can solve.  Most automakers already try to follow an industry standard, like J1772, despite using different battery sizes and voltages.  And if the specs for Tesla's Supercharger became the accepted world standard, they would all have little trouble making their cars compatible with that.  "Standard" also doesn't mean it's fixed in stone for ever and ever.  They could select a "standard" power source, maybe two, and connector type and then in the future, as time and technology march on, append it, as has happened with fuel grades and qualities over the years.

Superchargers run at 480VDC, BTW.  And Euro market Tesla's don't use Tesla's proprietary connector.  They use a standard, IEC 62196 type 2 connector (a standard connector for Euro public EV charging stations) and are still capable of handling supercharger levels of current, so that completely blows the notion that Tesla had to design a proprietary connector because supercharging was so magical and cutting edge that no existing connector would do.

This is not correct. The safety design of a 250A circuit is much different than that of a 20A circuit (as it is for AC vs. DC), particularly concerning arc flash and short circuit capacity, which puts the problem deep into the NFPA, IEEE and NEC codes and likely corresponding PE licensure (esp. for a utility or professional concern) either of which puts the task well outside the ability of an undergrad EE student.

Much the rest of the world has different power than the US. For example, in a lot of Europe, residential power for lower current circuits is 220-230VAC single phase L to N and 380-400 VAC three phase for higher current circuits at 50 Hz. This is much different than the US's corresponding residential service of 120VAC L to N and 240VAC L1 to L2 at 60 Hz. This difference means different connectors, cables and circuit design.

Tesla isn't playing around with connectors "just because." They have technical reasons why they're doing what they're doing. All of what it is I don't know, but I know as much as power and charging circuit design is way more than an undergrad EE challenge, and forcing a one-size-fits-all standard onto the process will either add cost to the vehicles and decrease charge efficiency or force EV makers into comprising their designs.

My bet is it won't happen, and if there are to be standards, there will be many of them.

CaminoRacer

I'll bet you on that. Industry standards reduce supplier costs, so the major manufacturers are gonna do the best they can to find a standard.
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AutobahnSHO

Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 10, 2017, 10:11:15 AM
I'll bet you on that. Industry standards reduce supplier costs, so the major manufacturers are gonna do the best they can to find a standard.

+1

Even if there is one standard for NA and one for Yurrup and another for Japan.
Will

MX793

Quote from: GoCougs on May 10, 2017, 09:40:17 AM
This is not correct. The safety design of a 250A circuit is much different than that of a 20A circuit (as it is for AC vs. DC), particularly concerning arc flash and short circuit capacity, which puts the problem deep into the NFPA, IEEE and NEC codes and likely corresponding PE licensure (esp. for a utility or professional concern) either of which puts the task well outside the ability of an undergrad EE student.

Much the rest of the world has different power than the US. For example, in a lot of Europe, residential power for lower current circuits is 220-230VAC single phase L to N and 380-400 VAC three phase for higher current circuits at 50 Hz. This is much different than the US's corresponding residential service of 120VAC L to N and 240VAC L1 to L2 at 60 Hz. This difference means different connectors, cables and circuit design.

Tesla isn't playing around with connectors "just because." They have technical reasons why they're doing what they're doing. All of what it is I don't know, but I know as much as power and charging circuit design is way more than an undergrad EE challenge, and forcing a one-size-fits-all standard onto the process will either add cost to the vehicles and decrease charge efficiency or force EV makers into comprising their designs.

My bet is it won't happen, and if there are to be standards, there will be many of them.

I work with high voltage, high power system design, AC and DC.  The considerations for spec'ing cables and connectors don't change just because the current goes up.  20A at 100V DC is just as deadly as 250A at 480V.  Unless you also think that a .308 caliber weapon need not be handled with as much care as a .50BMG because the .50 Cal is significantly more powerful.  Once you cross the hazardous voltage/current threshold, the safety concerns are the same.

Arc flash and shorting can still happen at lower voltages and currents, which is why IEEE, NEC, etc all provide guidance on what dielectric strengths you need for different voltage levels, along with required conductor gauges, with deratings, needed to support different currents, both AC and DC, so you don't burn up wires.  It's why you don't use 22AWG wire to carry 15A.  All the same factors are considered.  What you need to spec (wire gauges, insulation ratings, connector pin spacing, etc) changes, but that doesn't change the fundamentals behind it.  It's not like having 250A suddenly puts you into the realm of quantum physics, or is analogous to the transition from incompressible to compressible flow problems in fluid dynamics.  This is all very fundamental stuff.  It's all a matter of scaling.

I again point out that Teslas in Europe use a standard connector instead of the Tesla proprietary one and magically can also handle the mythical power output of a Supercharger station.  Ergo, there was no technical justification for the proprietary connector design.
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GoCougs

Quote from: MX793 on May 10, 2017, 10:16:20 AM
I work with high voltage, high power system design, AC and DC.  The considerations for spec'ing cables and connectors don't change just because the current goes up.  20A at 100V DC is just as deadly as 250A at 480V.  Unless you also think that a .308 caliber weapon need not be handled with as much care as a .50BMG because the .50 Cal is significantly more powerful.  Once you cross the hazardous voltage/current threshold, the safety concerns are the same.

Arc flash and shorting can still happen at lower voltages and currents, which is why IEEE, NEC, etc all provide guidance on what dielectric strengths you need for different voltage levels, along with required conductor gauges, with deratings, needed to support different currents, both AC and DC, so you don't burn up wires.  It's why you don't use 22AWG wire to carry 15A.  All the same factors are considered.  What you need to spec (wire gauges, insulation ratings, connector pin spacing, etc) changes, but that doesn't change the fundamentals behind it.  It's not like having 250A suddenly puts you into the realm of quantum physics, or is analogous to the transition from incompressible to compressible flow problems in fluid dynamics.  This is all very fundamental stuff.  It's all a matter of scaling.

I again point out that Teslas in Europe use a standard connector instead of the Tesla proprietary one and magically can also handle the mythical power output of a Supercharger station.  Ergo, there was no technical justification for the proprietary connector design.

Well, we're in luck, I work with this stuff all the time as well, and can say that that is not correct either. 250A at 480V DC is vastly more dangerous/deadly than 20A at 100V DC, and it's more than just "scaling". When things go bad (grounding, short circuit) the level of badness is a function of the square of current as the circuit is required to absorb the heat energy of the excess current flow in order to prevent arc flash or explosion, and a 250A service needs to absorb ~16,000% more heat energy than a 20A service. This is what drives circuit and panel design (though the calculations and specs are specific to the element; breaker, cabling, etc.) and it also drives safety procedures (PPE, grounding, etc.)).

Well, as I've said, we'll never truly know why Tesla made the decision to different and proprietary connectors for AC vs. DC in the US, but they didn't do it willy-nilly. I'm guessing it came down to, like most things, cost. Designing a safe multi-use connector/cable looks like work and often times half of the cable/connector simply goes unused. It's a more efficient design to have AC-only and DC-only cables and connectors, and it starts to matter, when there are hundreds of thousands of vehicles and charging stations.

TL;DR - I don't like Tesla the company but it's really hard to argue with any of the technical decisions they've made - connectors or otherwise.



giant_mtb


93JC

Quote from: GoCougs on May 09, 2017, 10:50:41 PM
My point is what they want is specific to what they are doing. Volts ain't just volts, current just ain't current, and batteries just ain't batteries.

The Tesla supercharger outputs DC power at up to 400V and 250A. At that power level connectors, conductors and safety design become very specific to the use of AC vs. DC.


For the record Tesla's plug is used for 120 VAC to 400 VDC. So is the SAE J1772 "combo" coupler. And CHAdeMO. And the European one, which is basically the same thing as J1772 save for differences in the shape and pin layout.

I suspect Tesla cars in Europe use the European plug because there are EU product regulations that mandate the use of it, whereas the SAE standard is a voluntary thing that isn't in the FMVSS (yet).

MX793

Quote from: GoCougs on May 10, 2017, 12:31:32 PM
Well, as I've said, we'll never truly know why Tesla made the decision to different and proprietary connectors for AC vs. DC in the US, but they didn't do it willy-nilly. I'm guessing it came down to, like most things, cost. Designing a safe multi-use connector/cable looks like work and often times half of the cable/connector simply goes unused. It's a more efficient design to have AC-only and DC-only cables and connectors, and it starts to matter, when there are hundreds of thousands of vehicles and charging stations.



Yes, I'm sure it was more cost effective to develop from scratch and manufacture a proprietary connector, along with getting any UL or other certification/qualification required to sell it to the public, than it is to select an established, commoditized, standardized connector that meets your design needs.  I guess that's why the likes of GM, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Honda, and BMW, champions of penny-pinching, all developed their own, proprietary connector designs for their plug-in vehicles which sell in similar, if not greater volumes to what Tesla sells.  Oh wait...
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Morris Minor

So, reading all this, & doing a bit of background searching.....  I think the charging experience ought to be a HUGE factor when people are considering the relative merits of EVs. Right now, as far as I can see, Tesla's superchargers are head & shoulders above the rest: quicker, easier & more reliable.

But the best tech does not necessarily win.
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GoCougs

Quote from: MX793 on May 10, 2017, 04:19:26 PM
Yes, I'm sure it was more cost effective to develop from scratch and manufacture a proprietary connector, along with getting any UL or other certification/qualification required to sell it to the public, than it is to select an established, commoditized, standardized connector that meets your design needs.  I guess that's why the likes of GM, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Honda, and BMW, champions of penny-pinching, all developed their own, proprietary connector designs for their plug-in vehicles which sell in similar, if not greater volumes to what Tesla sells.  Oh wait...

Well, the premise is yours - Tesla did something just willy-nilly for the heck of it - and I can't see how that it can be validated.

GoCougs

Quote from: 93JC on May 10, 2017, 03:35:36 PM
For the record Tesla's plug is used for 120 VAC to 400 VDC. So is the SAE J1772 "combo" coupler. And CHAdeMO. And the European one, which is basically the same thing as J1772 save for differences in the shape and pin layout.

I suspect Tesla cars in Europe use the European plug because there are EU product regulations that mandate the use of it, whereas the SAE standard is a voluntary thing that isn't in the FMVSS (yet).

None of those can do supercharging however (200+ amps).

The "hi" amperage hybrid Type 2 DC plug needed for supercharging is a different animal, and uses different conductors for DC (last one):


GoCougs

Quote from: Morris Minor on May 10, 2017, 04:37:11 PM
So, reading all this, & doing a bit of background searching.....  I think the charging experience ought to be a HUGE factor when people are considering the relative merits of EVs. Right now, as far as I can see, Tesla's superchargers are head & shoulders above the rest: quicker, easier & more reliable.

But the best tech does not necessarily win.

Absolutely. Having plugged and unplugged thousands of industrial cables over the span of my career, just that simple act matters. Tesla's reasoning could have come down to simply "user experience." The 10-pin "DC-High" coupler above is huge, as are the other combo couplers. Tesla's US supercharger coupler (far right below) is small in comparison. One thing for sure, Tesla has scores if not a couple of hundred engineers working on nothing but charging. Free any sort of mandate or constraint they went with a custom couplers/cables, and they didn't do so willy-nilly.





93JC

Quote from: 93JC on May 10, 2017, 03:35:36 PM
For the record Tesla's plug is used for 120 VAC to 400 VDC. So is the SAE J1772 "combo" coupler.

You know, the one with the DC pins.

Quote from: GoCougs on May 10, 2017, 05:31:31 PM
None of those can do supercharging however (200+ amps).

The "hi" amperage hybrid Type 2 DC plug needed for supercharging is a different animal, and uses different conductors for DC

500 V x 200 A = 100 kW
400 V x 250 A = ... 100 kW...


MX793

Quote from: GoCougs on May 10, 2017, 05:43:29 PM
Absolutely. Having plugged and unplugged thousands of industrial cables over the span of my career, just that simple act matters. Tesla's reasoning could have come down to simply "user experience." The 10-pin "DC-High" coupler above is huge, as are the other combo couplers. Tesla's US supercharger coupler (far right below) is small in comparison. One thing for sure, Tesla has scores if not a couple of hundred engineers working on nothing but charging. Free any sort of mandate or constraint they went with a custom couplers/cables, and they didn't do so willy-nilly.






Euro Tesla's use the 7-pin Mennekes style connector (middle-right, without optional pins) and can be charged from a Euro Tesla Supercharging station at 120kW on DC power (same power rating as the US Superchargers).  This connector is not appreciably larger than the Tesla proprietary unit.
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GoCougs

Quote from: MX793 on May 10, 2017, 06:44:39 PM
Euro Tesla's use the 7-pin Mennekes style connector (middle-right, without optional pins) and can be charged from a Euro Tesla Supercharging station at 120kW on DC power (same power rating as the US Superchargers).  This connector is not appreciably larger than the Tesla proprietary unit.

Per the diagram above it's only good for 500V and 140A DC (70 kW), so not suitable for superchargers.

MX793

Quote from: GoCougs on May 10, 2017, 07:03:45 PM
Per the diagram above it's only good for 500V and 140A DC (70 kW), so not suitable for superchargers.


Tesla uses a slightly modified version of the Type 2 in Europe which is still fully compatible with the standard connector while supporting the higher power of the SuperCharger.
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GoCougs

Quote from: 93JC on May 10, 2017, 06:40:28 PM
You know, the one with the DC pins.

500 V x 200 A = 100 kW
400 V x 250 A = ... 100 kW...



The Wiki entry says that is only a proposal, and not yet implemented.

Even if it were, it's still a much larger connector, and easy to see why Tesla would pass on it if they could.

GoCougs

Quote from: MX793 on May 10, 2017, 08:52:04 PM
Tesla uses a slightly modified version of the Type 2 in Europe which is still fully compatible with the standard connector while supporting the higher power of the SuperCharger.

It's still only good for 70 kW per the above.

93JC

Quote from: GoCougs on May 10, 2017, 09:20:57 PM
The Wiki entry says that is only a proposal, and not yet implemented.

It's real.

Chevy Bolt:



Hyundai Ioniq:



QuoteEven if it were, it's still a much larger connector, and easy to see why Tesla would pass on it if they could.

Right, that's what I said in the first place. Tesla didn't think it was sexy enough for them so they said "fuck it, we'll make our own".

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: 93JC on May 10, 2017, 10:16:50 PM
It's real.

Chevy Bolt:




That extra orange piece of plastic seems superfluous.
Will

MX793

Quote from: GoCougs on May 10, 2017, 09:39:43 PM
It's still only good for 70 kW per the above.

So are you saying that Tesla has a network of 120kW supercharger stations in Europe, which they went to court to defend their claim as the most powerful rapid charge stations at 120kW, that cannot be used by anyone there?
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GoCougs

Quote from: 93JC on May 10, 2017, 10:16:50 PM
It's real.

Chevy Bolt:



Hyundai Ioniq:



Right, that's what I said in the first place. Tesla didn't think it was sexy enough for them so they said "fuck it, we'll make our own".

The Bolt doesn't supercharge (200A) however.

CaminoRacer

Because it's impossible for a supercharging standard to be shared among manufacturers
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

GoCougs

Exactly, and what I've been saying all along.

There is smarts (or, specifics, to Tesla batteries) in Tesla's supercharging process - it's tapping DC directly into the batteries, and it is specific to battery design. Tesla is enjoying ginormous competitive advantage because of it, particularly that they can innovate fast (up the supercharging kW) by not being hamstrung by others.

Charging standards are a bad idea, or in the very least, forcing them onto EV makers is. Let EV makers decide what they want to do. If Tesla wants proprietary connectors and processes, by all means. Just remember, if Tesla was humstrung by a standard there would likely be no supercharging (and supercharging has been the linchpin to Tesla's existence).