VW T-Roc Coming To Europe And US To Challenge The Nissan Juke

[12,000 RPM]

For MK4 VWs?

And the upgrade in interior quality on the MK4s was a huge step forward.

[2o6]

VW Says No to the US having this car



They've lost the plot

[TBR]

VW Says No to the US having this car



They've lost the plot

They lost the plot a long time ago when it comes to the US.

Showed Eric the pictures, decent chance they would have sold one right there.

[ifcar]

VW Says No to the US having this car



They've lost the plot

They'll change their mind in a few years, to give it more time to fall behind the competition.

[2o6]

They'll change their mind in a few years, to give it more time to fall behind the competition.

"No one wanted it!"

[veeman]

They can't sell it at a profit here.  They're trying to be a somewhat premium brand in the U.S. but in that small cute ute category, they have to sell it cheaper than what they want to charge for it.

[2o6]

They can't sell it at a profit here.  They're trying to be a somewhat premium brand in the U.S. but in that small cute ute category, they have to sell it cheaper than what they want to charge for it.

That's their own damn fault. This car goes against the HR-V, CH-R and Trax (Opel Mokka) overseas. None of those are "cheap", especially not the CH-R.

[2o6]

That's their own damn fault. This car goes against the HR-V, CH-R and Trax (Opel Mokka) overseas. None of those are "cheap", especially not the CH-R.

Base T-ROC - 19K EUR

Base HR-V - 20K EUR

Base Mokka X (Buick Encore) - 18K EUR (The Mokka X is missing a few features from the USA Encore)





T-ROC isn't a premium product.

[veeman]

Base T-ROC - 19K EUR

Base HR-V - 20K EUR

Base Mokka X (Buick Encore) - 18K EUR (The Mokka X is missing a few features from the USA Encore)





T-ROC isn't a premium product.

19,000 Euros base is equivalent to $22750.  Maybe this conversion doesn't take into account different tax rates but VW can't sell a "nicely" equipped version here for $26,000; at least that's what they figure.  A base VW Beetle starts at $20,000 and a base Mini Cooper starts at $21,000.

[Tave]

Called it. There's not enough room between the Tiquan/Alltrac/Sportwagen to fit another similar model if you're not going to give customers some pizzazz. Shoulda made the detachable hardtop like the concept.

[Tave]

19,000 Euros base is equivalent to $22750.  Maybe this conversion doesn't take into account different tax rates but VW can't sell a "nicely" equipped version here for $26,000; at least that's what they figure.  A base VW Beetle starts at $20,000 and a base Mini Cooper starts at $21,000.

They've got the Tiguan Limited starting at $21,995, the new Tiguan at $25,345, the Sportwagen at $21,580, and the Alltrac at $25,850.

My guess is it has less to do with them turning a profit at ~23K than it does the potential sales cannibalization of the sister models.

[2o6]

19,000 Euros base is equivalent to $22750.  Maybe this conversion doesn't take into account different tax rates but VW can't sell a "nicely" equipped version here for $26,000; at least that's what they figure.  A base VW Beetle starts at $20,000 and a base Mini Cooper starts at $21,000.

Called it. There's not enough room between the Tiquan/Alltrac/Sportwagen to fit another similar model if you're not going to give customers some pizzazz. Shoulda made the detachable hardtop like the concept.

Those cars aren't similar, and the AllTRAC wagon doesn't have the appeal of an SUV. The Tiguan is now larger, and more sized like the CR-V. This T-ROC is direct competitor to the HR-V.



That's like saying the Chevy Trax won't sell because of the Cruze Hatchback or Equinox.


Also, like 1.2 people would have bought that detachable hardtop. Jeep has one on the Renegade and no one gives a fuck.

19,000 Euros base is equivalent to $22750.  Maybe this conversion doesn't take into account different tax rates but VW can't sell a "nicely" equipped version here for $26,000; at least that's what they figure.  A base VW Beetle starts at $20,000 and a base Mini Cooper starts at $21,000.

IDK, the HR-V and other competitors get that pricey that quick. A Trax LT is like 24K. An EX AWD HR-V is like 25K. Don't even get me started on the Mazda CX-3....

They've got the Tiguan Limited starting at $21,995, the new Tiguan at $25,345, the Sportwagen at $21,580, and the Alltrac at $25,850.

My guess is it has less to do with them turning a profit at ~23K than it does the potential sales cannibalization of the sister models.

Who knows how long the Tiguan Limited will sell on, though. I feel like it's more of a burn-off type car to use up old parts rather than introduce a new model. I wouldn't be surprised if the T-ROC ends up here.

It's a lifted VW Polo - the appeal of these cars (to companies) is usually an inflated profit margin versus their B-segment bases.

[12,000 RPM]

If the Juke can't make it here neither can this

They need to decontent and MQB the little Tiguan and put it up against the likes of the HR-V. Funky + crossover = doesn't sell.

[2o6]

If the Juke can't make it here neither can this

They need to decontent and MQB the little Tiguan and put it up against the likes of the HR-V. Funky + crossover = doesn't sell.

How on earth is this "funky"? Also, the SWB Tiguan would still be at too high of a price point. That's why this car exists....


ALSO A PAGE AGO, YOU CALLED IT BLAND

[Tave]

Those cars aren't similar, and the AllTRAC wagon doesn't have the appeal of an SUV. The Tiguan is now larger, and more sized like the CR-V. This T-ROC is direct competitor to the HR-V.

Pffft! Doesn't have the appeal of an SUV? Subaru sold 180,000 Outbacks; 95,000 Crosstreks; and 178,000 Foresters last year. Honda barely piddled out 80,000 HR-Vs.

The Sportwagon and Alltrack models account for 40% of Golf's sold this year, up from 20% over last year.

That's like saying the Chevy Trax won't sell because of the Cruze Hatchback or Equinox.

The Cruze and Equinox are selling at 3-3.5X the volume of the Trax.

Also, like 1.2 people would have bought that detachable hardtop. Jeep has one on the Renegade and no one gives a fuck.

The Renegade blows, as does the Trax and HR-V.

[veeman]

The Juke has a lot more polarizing styling than this VW though and initially sales were pretty good.  The styling is very old now and Nissan might replace it with something called the Nissan Kicks.

[2o6]

Pffft! Doesn't have the appeal of an SUV? Subaru sold 180,000 Outbacks; 95,000 Crosstreks; and 178,000 Foresters last year. Honda barely piddled out 80,000 HR-Vs.


So? 80K is a lot of fuckin units! The HR-V is selling out the Fit basically 2 to 1! Remember, the HR-V is mechanically similar to the Fit, not the Civic. It's a Fit with big shocks and a bigger engine and AWD, sold for about 5K USD more. 

The Sportwagon and Alltrack models account for 40% of Golf's sold this year, up from 20% over last year.

And the Golf Alltrack sold like a whopping 3500 units for the entire year of 2016. That's terrible.




The Cruze and Equinox are selling at 3-3.5X the volume of the Trax.

Cruze is selling at like 2.5 ish to 1 Trax, but the Trax still sold 80K units. Also, the Trax is Sonic based, and like the Fit/HR-V relationship it's outselling the Sonic at a basically 2 to 1 ratio!

The Renegade blows, as does the Trax and HR-V.

Listen, this class of car is overall not our tastes - but it's basically instant profit for automakers. They're cheap B-cars lifted in the air, and sold for 5-10K USD more than their donor cars. People love this class of car, and they're selling like relative hotcakes. VW is dumb as hell for ignoring this market, and instead giving us an old car that no one really liked in the first place. (Tiguan Limited)

Jeep moved 100K+ Renedgades last year. Keep in mind, that base platform is basically a revised version of the one in use on the old as hell Fiat PUNTO - once again, a cheap B-seg car.

The Juke has a lot more polarizing styling than this VW though and initially sales were pretty good.  The styling is very old now and Nissan might replace it with something called the Nissan Kicks.

Yep, more importantly, the Kicks is a car originally designed for Brazil and India, so it's cheaper to make.

[ifcar]

I'd agree that the explosion of the subcompact crossover genre hasn't resulted in whopping volumes, there have been some respectable sales successes with relatively low development costs. Just because one car outsells another doesn't mean both shouldn't exist.

[Raza]

If the Juke can't make it here neither can this

They need to decontent and MQB the little Tiguan and put it up against the likes of the HR-V. Funky + crossover = doesn't sell.

The Juke is possibly the worst looking car made in the last 20 years. It should have been choked to death in its infancy rather than letting its stillborn corpse pollute the roads.

[Tave]

So? 80K is a lot of fuckin units! The HR-V is selling out the Fit basically 2 to 1! Remember, the HR-V is mechanically similar to the Fit, not the Civic. It's a Fit with big shocks and a bigger engine and AWD, sold for about 5K USD more. 

And the Golf Alltrack sold like a whopping 3500 units for the entire year of 2016. That's terrible.

I think the discrepancy between the Fit/HR-V figures speaks more to the failure of the Fit more than the success of the HR-V, sadly enough (the Fit is a good vehicle and we need good, cheap options). You could say the same thing for the subcompact class in general, which other than a few exceptions, has largely failed to deliver on the sort of market penetration I think a lot of us hoped it could create. That Honda has figured out a way to milk the platform while it dies a slow death is great for its bottom line, but not so great for consumers now that they're shelling out ~25K for "basic transportation." Ultimately this will hurt Honda as well, no matter the cost-savings of the platform sharing, if they sink money into a platform and multiple skins that no one wants.

I'm not sure how much can be made of VW's sale figures given the recent public backlash over Dieselgate.

Cruze is selling at like 2.5 ish to 1 Trax, but the Trax still sold 80K units. Also, the Trax is Sonic based, and like the Fit/HR-V relationship it's outselling the Sonic at a basically 2 to 1 ratio!

Listen, this class of car is overall not our tastes - but it's basically instant profit for automakers. They're cheap B-cars lifted in the air, and sold for 5-10K USD more than their donor cars. People love this class of car, and they're selling like relative hotcakes. VW is dumb as hell for ignoring this market, and instead giving us an old car that no one really liked in the first place. (Tiguan Limited)

Jeep moved 100K+ Renedgades last year. Keep in mind, that base platform is basically a revised version of the one in use on the old as hell Fiat PUNTO - once again, a cheap B-seg car.

Yes, totally agreed on what Automakers in general are doing, but IMO, they're sacrificing too much long-term quality for short-term profits. VW has 4 entrants in the segment (or near to it), all for 25K or less. They don't need another stretched/shrunk/lifted/plasticladded/wagoned Golf at this point, they're set.

Jeep, even though both you and I were negative on it earlier, at least has the cheesy styling, decent space, and enough paper frills to give it some of the pizzazz I was talking about.

I'd agree that the explosion of the subcompact crossover genre hasn't resulted in whopping volumes, there have been some respectable sales successes with relatively low development costs. Just because one car outsells another doesn't mean both shouldn't exist.

I didn't mean to imply that they shouldn't exist. 2o6 made the argument that an Outback-type vehicle doesn't have the same appeal as this class, to which I was responding, not only does the Outback have a larger appeal, but the entire compact CUV market has a larger appeal.

Which is fine, subcompacts don't need to exceed compact sales volumes to stay viable, but why buy the smaller car if you're paying roughly the same or more for the penalty? Space is already at such a premium in the compact segment, I can't see VW getting away with charging 23K+ for a relatively tiny T-Roc when they've got 4 options for right around the same money.

[2o6]

I think the discrepancy between the Fit/HR-V figures speaks more to the failure of the Fit more than the success of the HR-V, sadly enough (the Fit is a good vehicle and we need good, cheap options). You could say the same thing for the subcompact class in general, which other than a few exceptions, has largely failed to deliver on the sort of market penetration I think a lot of us hoped it could create. That Honda has figured out a way to milk the platform while it dies a slow death is great for its bottom line, but not so great for consumers now that they're shelling out ~25K for "basic transportation." Ultimately this will hurt Honda as well, no matter the cost-savings of the platform sharing, if they sink money into a platform and multiple skins that no one wants.

The Fit is a global small car platform; it's sold here in the US as one variant, but it's still in the top 10 sales numbers in it's home market. It's not dying a "slow death". Honda sending a few thousand Fit hatcbacks our way is no big deal.


Honda has a hell of a lot of Fit-Based cars;

Insight
WR-V
HR-V
XR-V
Grace
Shuttle
Brio/Amaze (sort of)
Freed
Spike


Secondly, 50K units is still a lot of units, and it still makes profit and captures at least 50K Honda-loyal buyers a year who want something of this style from Honda.


I'm not sure how much can be made of VW's sale figures given the recent public backlash over Dieselgate.

Yes, totally agreed on what Automakers in general are doing, but IMO, they're sacrificing too much long-term quality for short-term profits. VW has 4 entrants in the segment (or near to it), all for 25K or less. They don't need another stretched/shrunk/lifted/plasticladded/wagoned Golf at this point, they're set.

Yes, they do. Really, VW is dumb for selling the lame Tiguan Limited. It should be the T-roc. IDFK how you get that selling a small SUV at a mainstream brand has to do with "long-term quality"; it's not like a Jetta is the paragon of brand longevity

Jeep, even though both you and I were negative on it earlier, at least has the cheesy styling, decent space, and enough paper frills to give it some of the pizzazz I was talking about.

It's also got a trusted name and easy credit

I didn't mean to imply that they shouldn't exist. 2o6 made the argument that an Outback-type vehicle doesn't have the same appeal as this class, to which I was responding, not only does the Outback have a larger appeal, but the entire compact CUV market has a larger appeal.

But this is a compact CUV. (Well, subcompact CUV). And arguably, the Outback treatment only works for Subaru. Kia might be onto something with the Niro, but we shall see,

Which is fine, subcompacts don't need to exceed compact sales volumes to stay viable, but why buy the smaller car if you're paying roughly the same or more for the penalty? Space is already at such a premium in the compact segment, I can't see VW getting away with charging 23K+ for a relatively tiny T-Roc when they've got 4 options for right around the same money.

Ask Chevrolet. Or Buick. Or Toyota. Or Honda. Also, these cars come with AWD as an option - something their sedan/hatch counterparts don't.

[Tave]

The Fit is a global small car platform; it's sold here in the US as one variant, but it's still in the top 10 sales numbers in it's home market. It's not dying a "slow death". Honda sending a few thousand Fit hatcbacks our way is no big deal.


Honda has a hell of a lot of Fit-Based cars;

Insight
WR-V
HR-V
XR-V
Grace
Shuttle
Brio/Amaze (sort of)
Freed
Spike


Secondly, 50K units is still a lot of units, and it still makes profit and captures at least 50K Honda-loyal buyers a year who want something of this style from Honda.

Yes, but we're talking about VW's decision to pull the T-Roc from the US market, not it's viability overseas.

Yes, they do. Really, VW is dumb for selling the lame Tiguan Limited. It should be the T-roc. IDFK how you get that selling a small SUV at a mainstream brand has to do with "long-term quality"; it's not like a Jetta is the paragon of brand longevity

It's also got a trusted name and easy credit

But this is a compact CUV. (Well, subcompact CUV). And arguably, the Outback treatment only works for Subaru. Kia might be onto something with the Niro, but we shall see,

Ask Chevrolet. Or Buick. Or Toyota. Or Honda. Also, these cars come with AWD as an option - something their sedan/hatch counterparts don't.

Every additional product line involves a cost trade-off, even that magical modular platform. More money spent on producing T-Rocs for the US market will result, directly or indirectly, in less money spent on improving US Jettas and Golfs. Or selling more at a lower price point. That is what I mean by long-term quality, not that I think the Jetta is a particularly notable brand.

Honda has two entrants in the sub/compact classes and the CR-V absolutely murders the HR-V. Ditto for Chevy. Toyota only recently got its second but the Rav4 is crushing it. Buick is the only one that flips, but their numbers have been so bad lately it's hard to discern anything. I will say that with Toyota in particular, but to a lesser extent the Trax and HR-V too, they're all new models, so maybe we'll see something change.

If your argument is that the T-Roc should have been the Tiguan, or Alltrack, etc..., then I respect that. I just don't see where they had room for a fifth, or fourth if you we discount the Sportwagen, car in that demo.

[2o6]

Yes, but we're talking about VW's decision to pull the T-Roc from the US market, not it's viability overseas.

....they wouldn't be spending (well, they SHOULDN'T BE) spending $$$$$ to develop a new car from the ground up. All of the engineering and styling legwork is done.

Every additional product line involves a cost trade-off, even that magical modular platform. More money spent on producing T-Rocs for the US market will result, directly or indirectly, in less money spent on improving US Jettas and Golfs. Or selling more at a lower price point. That is what I mean by long-term quality, not that I think the Jetta is a particularly notable brand.

Yeah, maybe if it was an entirely new platform and car designed just for us, sure. But it's not. Also, the Jetta and Golf sales aren't lighting the world on fire (especially the Golf) so IDK what the hell VW is spending it's money on. This argument seems like a slippery slope.

Honda has two entrants in the sub/compact classes and the CR-V absolutely murders the HR-V. Ditto for Chevy. Toyota only recently got its second but the Rav4 is crushing it. Buick is the only one that flips, but their numbers have been so bad lately it's hard to discern anything. I will say that with Toyota in particular, but to a lesser extent the Trax and HR-V too, they're all new models, so maybe we'll see something change.

CR-V outsells the HR-V, but the HR-V outsells the Fit. Does that mean the Fit and HR-V shouldn't exist?
because? The Fit and HR-V have their own clientele that may not be happy in a Civic or CR-V.


Also, the HR-V outsells the Encore.

If your argument is that the T-Roc should have been the Tiguan, or Alltrack, etc..., then I respect that. I just don't see where they had room for a fifth, or fourth if you we discount the Sportwagen, car in that demo.

No, the T-ROC should be the Tiguan Limited. Not the Tiguan itself. Chevy has a lot of cars in this segment - The Trax LT, upper-level Sonic, base Equinox, Cruze Sedan, Cruze Hatchback, and base Malibu all are priced around the same. The T-ROC is different because it's a small B-SUV; something that VW doesn't have and every other automaker has. The Tiguan Limited (old Tiguan) was never a strong seller, and now that it's notably older - it's gonna sell even weaker than before.


I mean, VW is giving us the Arterion; and that model has flop written all over it.