BMW Says The Days Of Manuals And DCTs Are Numbered

[cawimmer430]

BMW Says The Days Of Manuals And DCTs Are Numbered



The vice-president of sales and marketing for BMW's M division says that both manual and dual clutch transmissions will die out.

The imminent death of the manual transmission has been coming for years and shouldn't surprise anyone, however Peter Quintus' belief that DCTs are also on the way out might shock a few people.

While speaking to Drive, Quintus said that the advantage of quicker shifts dual-clutch transmissions once had over traditional automatic gearboxes are dwindling.

"It's more a question of how long has the DCT got to go. How long will it last? We are now seeing automatic transmissions with nine and even 10 speeds, so there's a lot of technology in modern automatics."

"The DCT once had two advantages: it was light and its shift speeds were higher. Now, a lot of that shift-time advantage has disappeared as automatics get better and smarter," Quintus said.

The executive also revealed he isn't sure if the next-generation M3 or M4 will have the option of a manual transmission.



Link: http://www.carscoops.com/2017/04/bmw-says-days-of-manuals-and-dcts-are.html

[12,000 RPM]

I feel like we discussed this, but if we didn't I'm not surprised. The only ///M car worth talking about anymore is the M2; the rest have lost their way chasing horsepower.

[GoCougs]

Well, if the goal it to chase ever higher performance and efficiency, manuals are definitely on the way out.

DCTs are interesting but it'd be mega complicated to make them have the smoothness and driveability of a slushie AT.

The 8 sp ZF slushie was the tipping point and the new GM/Ford 10 sp AT in the ZL1 looks to be the beginning of the end.

[12,000 RPM]

People are stupid. It wasn't supposed to end this way

[MexicoCityM3]

I feel like we discussed this, but if we didn't I'm not surprised. The only ///M car worth talking about anymore is the M2; the rest have lost their way chasing horsepower.

That's all from personal experience surely. (I mean personal experience reading Car and Driver).

[MexicoCityM3]

I really don't feel it's any real loss to go from a DCT to an auto if the auto shifts as fast and can be smoother as well. The auto box in the big ///M SUV's is fantastic. It shifts instantly, I don't miss a DCT at all.

Now, leaving the manual behind is another matter. But take rates are so low that for all the bitching and moaning it's tough to blame BMW or any other manufacturer making a similar decision.

When I go looking here for used cars, even Porsches are basically all PDK. Probably a 10-1 ratio PDK to manuals here in Mexico. There were more back when Porsche had the awful tiptronic box, but these days everybody gets the PDK. (I'd still get a manual though).

[Raza]

Autos and ACTs are the same shit to me. The death of the manual has been on the cards for years now, but it is as terrible as it is inevitable.

[SJ_GTI]

I really don't feel it's any real loss to go from a DCT to an auto if the auto shifts as fast and can be smoother as well. The auto box in the big ///M SUV's is fantastic. It shifts instantly, I don't miss a DCT at all.

I agree with you in concept, but again I will say I have driven several cars with the supposedly magical ZF 8-speed auto and it felt just like any other auto for me. I would take the Audi/VW ancient 6-speed DSG over it any day of the week.  I've never driven the PDK transmission but by all accounts it surpassed the DSG.

Now, leaving the manual behind is another matter. But take rates are so low that for all the bitching and moaning it's tough to blame BMW or any other manufacturer making a similar decision.

When I go looking here for used cars, even Porsches are basically all PDK. Probably a 10-1 ratio PDK to manuals here in Mexico. There were more back when Porsche had the awful tiptronic box, but these days everybody gets the PDK. (I'd still get a manual though).

Manuals definitely more fun for me, but for a track I would prefer a DSG/DCT/PDK.

All the above being said with electric cars on the horizon the issue of manual/DCT/torque converter may be moot.

[Raza]

I agree with you in concept, but again I will say I have driven several cars with the supposedly magical ZF 8-speed auto and it felt just like any other auto for me. I would take the Audi/VW ancient 6-speed DSG over it any day of the week.  I've never driven the PDK transmission but by all accounts it surpassed the DSG.

Manuals definitely more fun for me, but for a track I would prefer a DSG/DCT/PDK.

All the above being said with electric cars on the horizon the issue of manual/DCT/torque converter may be moot.

I'd want an ACT on a track....if I were a professional.  But the days where I could be a racing god have long since passed.  Any time on the track is purely for enjoyment--and that enjoyment is enhanced by full control over the car and the involvement of a manual transmission. 

[MrH]

I'd want an ACT on a track....if I were a professional.  But the days where I could be a racing god have long since passed.  Any time on the track is purely for enjoyment--and that enjoyment is enhanced by full control over the car and the involvement of a manual transmission. 

Have you driven on a track?  There's a lot going on.  A DSG makes a lot more sense for track work.

[SJ_GTI]

Have you driven on a track?  There's a lot going on.  A DSG makes a lot more sense for track work.

Yeah that is my thinking. I am not an expert with manuals. I feel like if I am at a track I would be perfectly willing to shift with paddles in order to focus on other things happening around me. Granted manually operating a clutch becomes somewhat second nature, but I make mistakes occasionally. Not a big deal on the drive in to work but on a track where I am trying to maximize performance I think it might be more irritating than rewarding for me.

[Raza]

Have you driven on a track?  There's a lot going on.  A DSG makes a lot more sense for track work.

Yes, multiple times.  Automatic and manual and an automated manual Ferrari.

[Raza]

Yeah that is my thinking. I am not an expert with manuals. I feel like if I am at a track I would be perfectly willing to shift with paddles in order to focus on other things happening around me. Granted manually operating a clutch becomes somewhat second nature, but I make mistakes occasionally. Not a big deal on the drive in to work but on a track where I am trying to maximize performance I think it might be more irritating than rewarding for me.

Who cares about being an expert?  It's not your job; it's a hobby.  You're out there for fun, not because you have to be there.  What's the point of driving on the track if it's not to challenge yourself and have fun with it?  Part of driving is changing gear.  Might as well get on a track in a Tesla, put it on Autopilot, and start texting while you wait for the battery to die.

[CaminoRacer]

All the above being said with electric cars on the horizon the issue of manual/DCT/torque converter may be moot.

I was expecting them to say something along those lines.

[12,000 RPM]

Who cares about being an expert?  It's not your job; it's a hobby.  You're out there for fun, not because you have to be there.  What's the point of driving on the track if it's not to challenge yourself and have fun with it?  Part of driving is changing gear.  Might as well get on a track in a Tesla, put it on Autopilot, and start texting while you wait for the battery to die.

There's a lot more to driving on a track than changing gears. If that's all driving is to you, then the track is probably a waste of time.

[Raza]

There's a lot more to driving on a track than changing gears. If that's all driving is to you, then the track is probably a waste of time.

So reductive.  Of course it's only one part; I literally said "Part of driving is changing gear".  You should know that, because it's in the post that you supposedly read and definitely quoted.  So if I were to say something like "A roof is part of a house" and you say "There's a lot more to a house than a roof", it makes you seem a little silly doesn't it?  So we can both agree that changing gear is part of driving.  But why give that one part up?  To make it easier?  If you're going to give up part of your control over the car to make it easier, why not give up more?  And more?  And more still?  Until you're not challenging yourself at all.

[SJ_GTI]

Who cares about being an expert?  It's not your job; it's a hobby.  You're out there for fun, not because you have to be there.  What's the point of driving on the track if it's not to challenge yourself and have fun with it?  Part of driving is changing gear.  Might as well get on a track in a Tesla, put it on Autopilot, and start texting while you wait for the battery to die.

I guess it depends on where you gain satisfaction from.

Keeping in mind I am a bit older than you, for me the initial pull of a manual gearbox was being able to control which gear I was in while also getting a significant bump in performance. Being able to manually control the clutch with my foot was not even on my radar and it wasn't something I particularly relished. The first automated manual I ever drove was BMW's old "SMG" transmission and I thought it was great (even though it was generally panned in the press). You got the direct connection between the engine and transmission while getting guaranteed perfect shifts at a faster pace than any human could do it. I didn't end up buying it because it was still a bit clunky and there were times where it wasn't as smooth as I could do it myself with a traditional manual.

Since then automated manuals have gotten better and better. I have stuck with the traditional manual out of habit largely, but one other downside with automated manuals is that they are all sequential in nature. When I drive my car I skip gears all the time. The only times I have sequentially is when I am accelerating. I don't derive a ton of pleasure simply by operating the clutch with my foot...I just like being able to put the gear in to any gear at any time. There is also a bit of muscle memory when it comes to shifting by hand using the stickshift itself...I can pretty much tell what gear I am in based on where my hand is at when I put it on the knob.

On a track I feel like going sequentially will cover 99% of the situations you run in to (or at least a much higher percentage than when you are driving in stop and go traffic). You still control what gear you are in and every shift happens exactly when you want it with expert precision and amazing speed.

[12,000 RPM]

So reductive.  Of course it's only one part; I literally said "Part of driving is changing gear".  You should know that, because it's in the post that you supposedly read and definitely quoted.  So if I were to say something like "A roof is part of a house" and you say "There's a lot more to a house than a roof", it makes you seem a little silly doesn't it?  So we can both agree that changing gear is part of driving.  But why give that one part up?  To make it easier?  If you're going to give up part of your control over the car to make it easier, why not give up more?  And more?  And more still?  Until you're not challenging yourself at all.

It's not a necessary part for driving enjoyment. To expand on your house metaphor, it's like saying a house is no good if it doesn't have a mud room. Plus in the context of your car philosophy it's not reductive. You write off anything with an automatic as not fun, and anyone with an automatic sports car as lazy. No exceptions.

I think stickshift can add to the driving experience in the right car and context, but unlike you, I actually believe there are other fun aspects of driving besides using a 3rd pedal... I don't just say so to appear impartial

[Raza]

It's not a necessary part for driving enjoyment. To expand on your house metaphor, it's like saying a house is no good if it doesn't have a mud room. Plus in the context of your car philosophy it's not reductive. You write off anything with an automatic as not fun, and anyone with an automatic sports car as lazy. No exceptions.

I think stickshift can add to the driving experience in the right car and context, but unlike you, I actually believe there are other fun aspects of driving besides using a 3rd pedal... I don't just say so to appear impartial

I get what you're saying.  For me, though, still with the houses, it's like a nice house with no doors.  Sure, it seems great at first, but then I can't get in. 

[Tave]

Such a shame, but BMW traded in their "ultimate driving machine" for "efficient dynamics" years ago, so no big surprise. Oh well, just another car I'll never buy as long as someone else still makes a decent stick.

[AutobahnSHO]

I don't care how many speeds an automatic has- is that awful Torque Converter lag any better in the fancier high-HP autos??

[MexicoCityM3]

I don't care how many speeds an automatic has- is that awful Torque Converter lag any better in the fancier high-HP autos??

Yes. In the best autos there is no lag. Not your father's torqueflite.

[r0tor]

DCT is great on the track... No doubt about it.

These however are street cars and 99% of the cars will spend 99% of their time on the street - where a manual is still more involving and a better driver experience.

[MexicoCityM3]

Automatics are great for boring stop and go city traffic. And in that case, the sooner we get to full automation the better.

DCTs/Fast sports automatics can be good on a track too. As some have said, in that setting there is so much going on that you don't really think "I wish this was a manual" during a lap. If driving a manual on track, however, you feel that "I'm a driving god" plus if you pull off a perfect heel'n'toe downshift.

Newer manuals blip the throttle for you so they take that bit away....but.....again....on a track setting you don't really miss that. The GT4 does that automatic throttle blipping. Like with a DCT, so much going on that I don't really miss manually blipping on track driving. Plus, it sounds fantastic since the car does it perfectly every time. That sound counts for something too.

Manuals are great on a fast mountain drive IMO. Can't be beat there for pleasure.

[CaminoRacer]

I don't care how many speeds an automatic has- is that awful Torque Converter lag any better in the fancier high-HP autos??

High HP does a good job of making the transmission less relevant no matter what.

[r0tor]

One issue I had with the DCT was getting a decent launch in the rain... It's hard to control the clutch engagement pressure, what rpm it dumps the rpms at, and then deal with the turbo spooling and boost when you only have a single pedal 

[MX793]

One issue I had with the DCT was getting a decent launch in the rain... It's hard to control the clutch engagement pressure, what rpm it dumps the rpms at, and then deal with the turbo spooling and boost when you only have a single pedal 

Lack of control when launching is my biggest gripe with all autos, including SMG/DSG boxes.  Particularly in inclement weather.  On a race track, you are seldom launching from a dead stop, so that largely falls out of the equation.  In daily driving, not so much.

[12,000 RPM]

That is my one annoyance with the G. When it's wet it's like starting on ice.

[giant_mtb]

I've never driven on a track, but I know I prefer an automatic off road and that's about it.  Granted, it will be a long time before I own another car/sedan and I wouldn't want a truck with a manual anyways.  But damn, A4 spoiled me on manuals. I've yet to drive one as nice.  Thing was a joy to row.

[AutobahnSHO]

When I bought my Miata in 2013 I hadn't driven a manual car since 2003. That car's clutch and transmission were so beautiful I hopped in and it was like I had been driving manual every day. Never stalled the car, never had any issues with mis-shifts or spinning the tires (except when it was raining and the kids were outside ).