Star Trek or Star Wars?

Started by 12,000 RPM, May 15, 2017, 06:18:47 AM

veeman

Quote from: 93JC on June 01, 2017, 12:59:48 PM
I'm a little older than you and I was a fan of both, and grew up with Star Wars too, due entirely to home video. Like I said, by the late '80s Star Wars was in many respects passé and a fad that was seemingly over, succinctly echoed by MX793:

:lol: I remember finding a Yoda action figure buried in the playground at my school; it was like an archaeological find. I imagine it would be especially hard for people born post-1990ish to believe but by the turn of that decade Star Wars really had "gone cold" and was "played out". That's really all I was remarking on, veeman's assertion, "From 1977 to 1999, nothing inspired so many kids to act out their fantasies as did the Star Wars trilogy." I was there and I can say from about 1987 to 1997 that just wasn't true.

I feel 1987 and 1997 were the cut-offs because 1997 was when they re-released the "special editions" in theatres, which in no small part sold the idea of a prequel trilogy on Fox, and 1987 because that's the year Spaceballs came out. Interest in Star Wars hit a nadir when it became the punchline to a joke. (The cynical part of me thinks Lucas wanted to make the prequel trilogy for no other reason than, as 'Yogurt' would put it: "Moichandising! Moichandising!")

At this point I can't deny that Star Wars makes more money, but that's not really what I was remarking on in the first place. Arguing Star Trek is culturally 'niche' is a little silly, I think. It's perhaps a little morbid but I think all the evidence one needs as proof that Star Trek is still relevant is the passing of Leonard Nimoy a couple years ago. He was 83 and had done very little acting other than Star Trek movies and guest appearances on TV since the 1980s, and there was still a huge popular outpouring of grief and sadness when it was announced that he'd died. No smaller than when Carrie Fisher died six months ago.

To say "Star Wars is part of the fabric of our culture that Spock's hand gesture just can't compete with," is, at best, naive. I don't think the "it made more money" argument holds water: Avatar and Titanic made more money (worldwide) than The Force Awakens did but I wouldn't argue those movies are more culturally relevant. Adjusted for inflation ET: The Extra-Terrestrial is still far higher grossing than The Force Awakens, and I wouldn't argue it was particularly relevant past 1985ish. Avatar too was but a passing fad.

I guess my overarching point is that there's a recency bias at work here.

I stand by the statement "Star Wars is part of the fabric of our culture that Spock's hand gesture just can't compete with" 

The Star Wars saga had three consecutive movies which captured the minds of hundreds of millions of young'uns globally. That was followed by nothing for about 20 years.  That was followed by one of the biggest disappointments in cinematic history.  A collective groan was let out because the religion of the Force was neutered by its very own creator, its very own god.  One story line, one space opera, was supposed to be revived from the dead but instead of it being resurrected, it was defiled.  Star Trek had some really good movies, some bad movies, and a niche group of very devoted Trekkies. It has had big cultural impact but not at the level of Star Wars.  No collective groan or ruining of the very franchise itself ever occurred because of a poor Star Trek flick. 300 million Star Wars action figures were sold from 1978-1985.  To put that in perspective there are currently 74 million persons under age 18 in the U.S.

I'm not saying that the Star Wars saga is a better movie.  I'm saying its cultural impact was far greater. 

In recent decades Harry Potter has had the greatest cultural impact as a literary and perhaps cinematic work among young'uns globally and has surpassed the impact Star Wars had.  Nothing in the last decade or two comes close.

Soup DeVille

Star Wars made its impression on everybody, young and adult geeks alike.

Trek was and remains mostly an adult thing.

That alone makes Star Wars more influential.
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BimmerM3

Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 02, 2017, 10:31:59 AM
Star Wars made its impression on everybody, young and adult geeks alike.

Trek was and remains mostly an adult thing.

That alone makes Star Wars more influential.

Star Wars also has a larger appeal outside of the "geek" world.

93JC

Quote from: veeman on June 02, 2017, 07:37:19 AM
I stand by the statement "Star Wars is part of the fabric of our culture that Spock's hand gesture just can't compete with"

And you're still categorically wrong. :huh:  :tounge:

BimmerM3

Quote from: 93JC on June 01, 2017, 12:59:48 PM
I don't think the "it made more money" argument holds water: Avatar and Titanic made more money (worldwide) than The Force Awakens did but I wouldn't argue those movies are more culturally relevant.

I think it does. Avatar and Titanic made so much money primarily because, in one way or another, they were unique cinematic experiences, and Avatar didn't beat The Force Awakens (adjusted or not) in the domestic box office, which is an important distinction when we're talking about US/Canadian culture. The Force Awakens was damn near a remake of A New Hope. It really didn't bring anything new to the table. It was just a Star Wars movie that didn't suck, and that alone was enough for it to become the top grossing movie (unadjusted) and 11th top grossing movie (inflation adjusted) OF ALL TIME in the domestic box office.

Now I'm certainly not saying that Star Trek is culturally insignificant, and in the franchise's defense, Trek had a bigger impact through TV than in cinemas. But get a bunch of random US/Canadian citizens in a room, and I'd bet pretty good money that more people know what "No, I am your father" is from than Spock's hand gesture; that more people recognize the Millennium Falcon than the USS Enterprise; that more people could tell you who Jar Jar Binks is than any Trek character except maybe Spock. 

Rupert

I think the impact of Trek and Wars have been about equally deep, but Wars' impact has been much wider. I think anyone who knows who Luke is knows who Spock is, but I would guess far more people are familiar with the basics of Wars (the movies) than the basics of Trek (like maybe the best 20% of TOS and TNG episodes).
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giant_mtb

#66
Quote from: Raza  on May 30, 2017, 09:52:28 PM


Alien, Aliens, Alien III, Alien: Resurrection, Alien vs. Predator (crossover), Alien vs. Predator Requiem (crossover), Prometheus (prequel), Alien: Covenant (prequel). 

There are as many Alien movies as there are Fast and Furious movies and Star Wars movies.  A quadrilogy, two crossovers, and two prequels.  And I bet Alien: Covenant will have a sequel too. 

Indeed, and I've never seen or really intend to see any of those sequels/prequels. ;)

(but I see your point :lol:)

giant_mtb

Of course, I've seen Prometheus.  May watch the new Alien movie. But I don't watch them because I want to connect them...they can be viewed as totally stand-alone movies. Connecting all the dots is too much rabbit hole for me.

shp4man


Galaxy

Here is Star Trek vs. Star Wars for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFCBwob65Nw

That is surprisingly well done. I would say it is fair and balanced. Star Wars fans do not get upset until the end.

Raza

Quote from: giant_mtb on June 03, 2017, 02:07:40 PM
Of course, I've seen Prometheus.  May watch the new Alien movie. But I don't watch them because I want to connect them...they can be viewed as totally stand-alone movies. Connecting all the dots is too much rabbit hole for me.

Just watch Alien and Aliens and burn the rest.
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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

giant_mtb

#71
Quote from: Raza  on June 04, 2017, 01:50:00 PM
Just watch Alien and Aliens and burn the rest.

I believe that. I've never seen Alien, but the tidbits I've seen regarding its many sequels is part of what has kept me away from it...they look like trash. AvP looked like such a garbage series when the previews came out.  I honestly didn't know they were connected for quite some time. I know the original Alien is highly regarded, but I haven't done it yet!  Maybe this weekend.

Rupert

Alien is brilliant! I also stayed away for a long time because the sequels looked horrible.
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MX793

Alien was excellent.  Jaws in space.  Aliens was also excellent.  The rest of them ranged from mediocre to bad (haven't seen Covenant yet).
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Raza

Quote from: giant_mtb on June 06, 2017, 09:55:34 PM
I believe that. I've never seen Alien, but the tidbits I've seen regarding its many sequels is part of what has kept me away from it...they look like trash. AvP looked like such a garbage series when the previews came out.  I honestly didn't know they were connected for quite some time. I know the original Alien is highly regarded, but I haven't done it yet!  Maybe this weekend.

Alien is fantastic. It's a true horror movie, extremely well done. Aliens is a flat out action movie, but also extremely well done.
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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Raza  on June 08, 2017, 07:51:52 AM
Alien is fantastic. It's a true horror movie, extremely well done. Aliens is a flat out action movie, but also extremely well done.

The director's cut is the better version there; although there are too many aliens. 
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

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Raza

Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 08, 2017, 08:30:01 AM
The director's cut is the better version there; although there are too many aliens.

I think I've only seen the director's cut.
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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

MX793

Anybody remember SeaQuest DSV?
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Soup DeVille

Quote from: Raza  on June 08, 2017, 05:04:25 PM
I think I've only seen the director's cut.

Did it have the remote sentry guns?
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Soup DeVille

Quote from: MX793 on June 08, 2017, 05:17:47 PM
Anybody remember SeaQuest DSV?

Yes. Haven't heard anything of it in a long time though.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator


Raza

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If you can read this, you're too close


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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Raza

Quote from: MX793 on June 08, 2017, 05:17:47 PM
Anybody remember SeaQuest DSV?

Yes.  Talking dolphin, right?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Soup DeVille

Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Raza

Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 09, 2017, 04:43:15 AM

That was the directors cut then.

That wasn't in the theatrical version?!
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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Soup DeVille

Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Raza

Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 09, 2017, 01:31:13 PM
Nope.

Well I'll be.  Next you're going to tell me that in the director's cut of Titanic, the ship doesn't sink.
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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

93JC

The director's cut of Titanic has a scene where the ship's crew set up sentry posts in the corridors in steerage, mowing down the Irishmen as they crash the gates to second-class.

MX793

Quote from: 93JC on June 11, 2017, 03:06:46 PM
The director's cut of Titanic has a scene where the ship's crew set up sentry posts in the corridors in steerage, mowing down the Irishmen as they crash the gates to second-class.

:lol:

It just dawned on me that both films were directed by the same person...
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Raza

Quote from: 93JC on June 11, 2017, 03:06:46 PM
The director's cut of Titanic has a scene where the ship's crew set up sentry posts in the corridors in steerage, mowing down the Irishmen as they crash the gates to second-class.

:lol:
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.