The $35,000 Hot Hatch question

[GoCougs]

Tough call, can't really say for sure.

You're creeping on the declaration that you regret your purchase...

[GoCougs]

I've only driven the Golf R, but with 98% hunch, it is what I'd choose. The others are compromised in various ways as actual cars you have to drive.

[12,000 RPM]

I still don't understand why they tuned the RS suspension the way they did. And nobody who has reviewed it does either. I wish VW would put the 3.6 in the R. Then it would be a complete no brainer

[68_427]

I still don't understand why they tuned the RS suspension the way they did. And nobody who has reviewed it does either. I wish VW would put the 3.6 in the R. Then it would be a complete no brainer

But then people could DOWNPIPE AND A TUNE and thus VW would have to warranty the cars

[GoCougs]

3.6 is heavier and probably more expensive, and the chassis configuration would be very expensive, for AFAIK nowhere else does MQB use the (transverse-centric) VR6.

[68_427]

3.6 is heavier and probably more expensive, and the chassis configuration would be very expensive, for AFAIK nowhere else does MQB use the (transverse-centric) VR6.

The Atlas, but that is also the newest MQB vehicle

[GoCougs]

Wowzers, are they ever whoring out MQB - the Atlas is pretty ginormous - some 30" longer than the Golf.

[12,000 RPM]

It's very versatile. Hopefully nothing goes wrong with it. Smart play though.

Regarding the 3.6, don't forget that all the mainstream VW blocks are iron. Making the 3.6 block aluminum would probably put it on equal footing with the EA888 weight wise. Only thing that would suffer is fuel economy, which probably isn't an issue for someone dropping 40 on anything.

[Xer0]

I'm pretty sure VW wants to move into a primarily 2.0T auto manufacturer.  Baring the US only Atlas and dated Passat/Tourag, nothing in their lineup uses more than 4 cylinders.  When was the last time they even bothered to update the VR6 anyway, 10 years ago?  Wishing for that in the Golf is like me wishing for an updated K24 in the Si; it's not gonna happen.

[MX793]

I'm pretty sure VW wants to move into a primarily 2.0T auto manufacturer.  Baring the US only Atlas and dated Passat/Tourag, nothing in their lineup uses more than 4 cylinders.  When was the last time they even bothered to update the VR6 anyway, 10 years ago?  Wishing for that in the Golf is like me wishing for an updated K24 in the Si; it's not gonna happen.

More accurately, I think VWAG as a whole is moving towards an all Forced Induction lineup.  They've put very little into the development of N/A motors over the past decade and have been systematically phasing out their naturally aspirated powerplants.  The 3.2 V6, available in the previous generation A6.  The 4.2L V8.  The 2.5L I5 (good riddance).  VR6 will be the next to go.

[MexicoCityM3]

More accurately, I think VWAG as a whole is moving towards an all Forced Induction lineup.  They've put very little into the development of N/A motors over the past decade and have been systematically phasing out their naturally aspirated powerplants.  The 3.2 V6, available in the previous generation A6.  The 4.2L V8.  The 2.5L I5 (good riddance).  VR6 will be the next to go.

The R8's / Lambo V10 is probably the last great NA engine.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

The R8's / Lambo V10 is probably the last great NA engine.

LS7?

[MX793]

LS7?

The one that was developed over a decade ago, hasn't been updated, and that hasn't been in a production vehicle since 2 model years ago?

[FoMoJo]

The one that was developed over a decade ago, hasn't been updated, and that hasn't been in a production vehicle since 2 model years ago?

...and producing less bhp per cubic inch than engines from 40 years previous.

[Xer0]

More accurately, I think VWAG as a whole is moving towards an all Forced Induction lineup.  They've put very little into the development of N/A motors over the past decade and have been systematically phasing out their naturally aspirated powerplants.  The 3.2 V6, available in the previous generation A6.  The 4.2L V8.  The 2.5L I5 (good riddance).  VR6 will be the next to go.

I meant VW as a brand more than VWAG as a company.  Larger engines will certainly continue as they are needed in Bently, higher end Audi's, and Lambos.  The company wide move to FI is 100% accurate though, but I wonder where that puts Lambo.  IIRC, the head of Lamborghini mentioned that their sports cars will remain N/A.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

The one that was developed over a decade ago, hasn't been updated, and that hasn't been in a production vehicle since 2 model years ago?

So it shouldn't be considered a great NA engine?

[MX793]

So it shouldn't be considered a great NA engine?

Sure, but it's not the last great NA engine as there are some great NA engines still in production today.

[GoCougs]

The one that was developed over a decade ago, hasn't been updated, and that hasn't been in a production vehicle since 2 model years ago?

Exactly his point - it hasn't been beat yet .

[GoCougs]

...and producing less bhp per cubic inch than engines from 40 years previous.

The LS7's 505 hp net equates to ~550 hp at the crank, and precisely NO engines ~40 years ago, not even the best of the bunch, the 426 Hemi, hit that figure (more like ~475 hp). And those of course were all 600-750 lb big blocks whereas the LS7 is a ~400 lb small block.

[CALL_911]

I think I'd have to go with the STI, though the CTR and FoRS are both really interesting. Honestly, if I had $40k to drop on a DD, the STI would probably be very high on my list.

[MX793]

Exactly his point - it hasn't been beat yet .

Didn't say "greatest", just "great".  There have been many and still are some great NA engines over the years.  LS7 definitely makes the list, though as it is no longer used in a production car it's not the "last great NA engine".  Current production NA motors that I think earn the "great" adjective include the new LT1, the Audi/Lambo V10, the Ford Voodoo (Coyote is no slouch either), and the H6 in the 911 GT3.

[GoCougs]

Ferrari V12 too of course.

I just hope said automakers can hold on through this F/I malaise. I think the epic diesel problems are harbingers of what's to come with F/I motors. I'm not sure if automakers are similarly cheating on F/I motors, but in general, turbo motors do not deliver on real-world economy (and probably emissions), and the sooner they are recognized as such, the sooner we can get back to great motors.

[GoCougs]

I would also throw in the Camaro's 335 hp 3.6L V6 - sounds fantastic, great performance, good economy. 

[12,000 RPM]

It's bizarre + sad that we are moving to a time where NA engines are becoming the niche + special edition engines. Porsche has adopted this model, as to a degree has Audi (R8) and Ferrari

I still think + wish companies would go more with hybrid tech to boost performance. I'd much rather have a V6 + hybrid setup than a 2.0T

[Payman]

Although my pick of these 4 is the Golf, I wouldn't be in the market for any of them. Realistically, up here these cars are more like $45,000 CAD, and to me that's stupid. The thought of a do-all daily driver "sports car" doesn't appeal to me. I'd rather take that $45k and buy a Miata or 124 Spider, plus a used SUV like an Escape for daily driver and winter duty.

[FoMoJo]

The LS7's 505 hp net equates to ~550 hp at the crank, and precisely NO engines ~40 years ago, not even the best of the bunch, the 426 Hemi, hit that figure (more like ~475 hp). And those of course were all 600-750 lb big blocks whereas the LS7 is a ~400 lb small block.

The 426 HEMI was, of course, a locomotive engine, weighing in at a ridiculous figure.  The best of the bunch was this one churning out 616 hp at 7,000 rpm and 515 lb-ft torque at 3,800 rpm; at a much more reasonable weight.

These engines, including the HEMI, are are iconic for the era.  I just don't see anything for this era, considering the advancements in technology, that are comparable, including the Voodoo.

[SJ_GTI]

You're creeping on the declaration that you regret your purchase...

[GoCougs]

The 426 HEMI was, of course, a locomotive engine, weighing in at a ridiculous figure.  The best of the bunch was this one churning out 616 hp at 7,000 rpm and 515 lb-ft torque at 3,800 rpm; at a much more reasonable weight.

These engines, including the HEMI, are are iconic for the era.  I just don't see anything for this era, considering the advancements in technology, that are comparable, including the Voodoo.

Although formidable, the Ford 427 SOHC was never available in a production car - it was a parts-counter special - plus, 616 hp was NASCAR guise. It was at least as heavy as the Hemi, as Ford copied the Hemi heads, and then to that add the weigh of the SOHC hardware. Few were ever purchased OTC, whereas many thousands of Hemi-powered cars were purchased by the public.

[FoMoJo]

Although formidable, the Ford 427 SOHC was never available in a production car - it was a parts-counter special - plus, 616 hp was NASCAR guise. It was at least as heavy as the Hemi, as Ford copied the Hemi heads, and then to that add the weigh of the SOHC hardware. Few were ever purchased OTC, whereas many thousands of Hemi-powered cars were purchased by the public.

Well, the HEMI was developed for NASCAR and then homologated with a detuned street version.  The FE 427 also was developed for racing, but also available in a number of street cars.  Ford just went a step too far for the SOHC version of the FE 427 and the competition just couldn't compete with it; so it was disqualified for NASCAR and never really put on the street; but sought after world wide for racing. 

As for the weight, we had this discussion before.  It was well below the weight of the locomotive HEMI.

[GoCougs]

Both engines were banned from NASCAR in '65 because they weren't street engines - after the Hemi's domination in '64, NASCAR did not want one or two very expensive engines developed for racing, and then forced into a token number of street cars, dominating the field. That changed in '66 when Chrysler offered the 426 Hemi as a legit option in multiple factory-produced cars. The SOHC 427 was simply too expensive to do so, ergo, it never competed in NASCAR (and the Hemi went on to change the face of not only NASCAR but of drag racing and the muscle car era in general).

The 427 FE had virtually identical bore and stroke, heads were the same size, plus it had the SOHC hardware. Simply look at the width of the intake manifold. The Hemi was called the "elephant" for good reason, but it was smaller than the SOHC 427: