2018 Camry XSE V6 - The Centimation of the Poser Class Confirmed.

[cawimmer430]

The new Camry is not bad-looking, but if you really want a performance-oriented Camry then you can't beat the ultra rare 1980-1982 A50 Celica Camry.

The only REAR-WHEEL-DRIVE "Camry" ever made. And technically it wasn't a Camry, it was a sportier Toyota Carina sedan.

[2o6]

RWD =! Performance oriented

[Tave]

Not for at least twice the price

From a roll I see a 328i/330i having a hard time getting away... and a 320i, forget about it

I'm not disputing the Camry is a better value dollar-for-dollar over every luxer. I'm responding to the factual assertion that any 3 short of the M "would eat Camcord V6 dust." It's not true now and never has been.

There is something there WRT Mercedes, which wasn't serious about the C-Class until relatively recently, and Audi, which does tend to limit engine upgrades outside of their performance lines, but the assertion falls flat with the 3-series.

[Raza]

Are there really people that will buy a performance Camry? I mean I picture the typical Camry owner of being someone who does not care about cars and wants good value and reliability and nothing more.

They'll buy it without regard to its performance because it's a Camry.  All they need to do is be competitive within the class and remain competent within the class and people will continue to buy it.  The performance is a luxury.

[Raza]

Yeah, but weren't those 250/270-hp models with zero sporting pretensions?

Body kit. 

I drove an I4 SE manual transmission model once.  It was....floaty.  But it looked sporty.

[12,000 RPM]

I'm not disputing the Camry is a better value dollar-for-dollar over every luxer. I'm responding to the factual assertion that any 3 short of the M "would eat Camcord V6 dust." It's not true now and never has been.

There is something there WRT Mercedes, which wasn't serious about the C-Class until relatively recently, and Audi, which does tend to limit engine upgrades outside of their performance lines, but the assertion falls flat with the 3-series.

Fair enough

[veeman]

The V6 makes up about 10% of Camry sales.  I think people shopping for it are not looking for a sporty ride.  They want a Lexus ES ride at a cheaper price point. 

[GoCougs]

???

The 3-series has always had an engine option short of the M's that will beat a Camry in a straight line.

Never said otherwise.

(Be very careful of trying too hard.)

[12,000 RPM]

The V6 makes up about 10% of Camry sales.  I think people shopping for it are not looking for a sporty ride.  They want a Lexus ES ride at a cheaper price point.

I disagree

Toyota knows what its customers want and the SE has got sportier with each iteration. The 07-11s got the 3.5; 12-14 got paddle shifters and chassis bracing; current one retained all the stuff the 12-14 got. I see this new XSE V6 as a legitimate alternative to something like a Maxima or TLX, which are def more focused on driver engagement than the ES.

[GoCougs]

The V6 makes up about 10% of Camry sales.  I think people shopping for it are not looking for a sporty ride.  They want a Lexus ES ride at a cheaper price point. 

History says you're right, in the form of whatever the top end lux Camy is (XLE V6). The video days SE/XSE V6 take rate is ~3% so at least some want the "performance" Camry.

[CaminoRacer]

That's ~600/month. So it does sell, about half as well as the poor selling models in the poser class

[ifcar]

I disagree

Toyota knows what its customers want and the SE has got sportier with each iteration. The 07-11s got the 3.5; 12-14 got paddle shifters and chassis bracing; current one retained all the stuff the 12-14 got. I see this new XSE V6 as a legitimate alternative to something like a Maxima or TLX, which are def more focused on driver engagement than the ES.

The first Camry SE had its own unique engine -- it had the 3.3-liter while the LE and XLE had the 3.0. For 2007, it switched to having the same engine as the rest of the lineup. It was a better engine, to be sure, but it reduced the SE distinction.

[12,000 RPM]

That's ~600/month. So it does sell, about half as well as the poor selling models in the poser class

10%? By my calcs that's 3,000-3,500/mo (10% of ~360-420K/yr)... better than only the top sellers (3 series, C-class, ES, 5er). I'd argue the XLE/XSE are nicer than the 328i as well

[CaminoRacer]

10%? By my calcs that's 3,000-3,500/mo (10% of ~360-420K/yr)... better than only the top sellers (3 series, C-class, ES, 5er). I'd argue the XLE/XSE are nicer than the 328i as well

He said 3%

(I don't have a clue what the % is, just going off that & average monthly sales of 20k)

[Char]

I would take a V6 Camry over a 320i. The 320i is everything that is wrong with BMW - It's ugly, slow and has no good features. It drives like a buick, it looks cheap as hell and it would get werked by a Camry in almost every objective measure.

[12,000 RPM]

He said 3%

(I don't have a clue what the % is, just going off that & average monthly sales of 20k)

OK.... quick check of Autotrader inventory of 2012+ cars = ~6%. At the Camry's volumes, enough to keep around. That extra power should make a nice difference too. Last Camry V6 was quick, but the power didn't impress me like the 300HP Maxima did. With the conventional 8AT this should have shorter gearing off the line, which will make it feel even peppier.

[68_427]

#coilovernation

[Morris Minor]

$35K plus taxes etc. Not bad. Plus a 14-pound sledge hammer to smack the rear bumper for the obligatory dent... and you'd be running with the big dogs.
I'd get the silver with the red interior.

[12,000 RPM]

Thinking more about it, I think Toyota may have priced these things in dangerous territory. The $25K 4 banger SE puts it right in the middle of GTI/Civic Si territory, and the $35K V6 is Golf R or even BMW 330i fodder. Back when the V6 was like $25K it was a more compelling package.

[68_427]

The only relevant comparison there is the 330i, and that's only barely relevant IMO.  A Camry buyer isn't going to even know what a GTI or Civic Si is most likely, and they're buying a Camry for value/comfort/reliability which pretty much rules out a BMW.  (trying to think like a Camry buyer here)

Yes there are exceptions but that's all they are.

[12,000 RPM]

IDK man. I could see someone like Cougs cross shopping the Camry XSE V6 and Golf R. And the market for sedans is shrinking, which could make such weird cross shopping more relevant. The fact that Toyota has sought to make the Camry sportier makes such comparisons more relevant.

[68_427]

IDK man. I could see someone like Cougs cross shopping the Camry XSE V6 and Golf R. And the market for sedans is shrinking, which could make such weird cross shopping more relevant. The fact that Toyota has sought to make the Camry sportier makes such comparisons more relevant.

I guess if you consider just the ultra low volume V6 XSE your argument makes more sense to me as a much larger % of buyers for that particular model will be "enthusiasts" even if only slightly, but I still don't think the comparison to the Golf R is a very good one.  They are only comparable on price and that's really it.  Someone buying a Golf R is unlikely to look at the Camry IMO, and someone looking at the Camry has priorities that are probably not going to be met by the Golf R.

[MX793]

IDK man. I could see someone like Cougs cross shopping the Camry XSE V6 and Golf R. And the market for sedans is shrinking, which could make such weird cross shopping more relevant. The fact that Toyota has sought to make the Camry sportier makes such comparisons more relevant.

Cougs only considers straight line performance relevant in a performance car.  The typical GTI/R buyer does not.