C&D I'm not buying a minivan test

[cawimmer430]

Holy shitty line spacing, Batman. 

[MexicoCityM3]

Also: isn't it likeable instead of "likable"?

[Lebowski]

I think I could do it, but it would have to be a newer Odyssey or Sienna or something.  An old, beat to hell Town and Country is just like waving the white flag of life.

I know I could do it, but I'm not sure I actually would do it. I have suggested it to my girlfriend as her vehicle for down the road, and she has basically said "no fucking way".

I've also figured we could just rent one for the one or two times a year we need one, like when we go on a road trip with all of us including the dogs + luggage. In the past the 4Runner has sufficed for that role, but that will change in about a week.

Without the dogs, the 4runner or something say CX9 sized should suffice fine for a family trip w/ 2 kids IMO.

Why wasn't the Highlander included, is it not considered in this class?

[Tave]

I was going to say, "well you could at least get away from them on an on/off ramp"

But 0.85g for the Acadia... 350Z on OEM tires did 0.87 A competent + determined driver in one of these, empty, could give "legit" performance cars a hassle

G-numbers can be misleading, especially when you're comparing them across different classes, vehicle types, etc...

No doubt this newest crop of SUVs are objectively better across the board than their predecessors, but the high G-numbers are a function of their heavy weight, large contact patches, and good rubber. It doesn't tell us anything about the way they behave in corners, their ability to handle transitions, and so on.

Relatively low g-rated cars smoke higher rated cars all the time.

[Raza]

Also: isn't it likeable instead of "likable"?

Both are acceptable, but likable is the more common American usage. 

[giant_mtb]

Likable has always been a weird one.  In my browser, likeable gets the red underline of "you spelled that wrong."

[12,000 RPM]

In the past the 4Runner has sufficed for that role, but that will change in about a week.

I feel bad.... we don't bring our dogs anywhere.

[AutobahnSHO]

Guess who shoved 2 bikes in the back of the vehicle, 2 bikes on the rack, and 4 people inside the other day???

Guess who put a fullsize bedframe in their vehicle? Full sheet of plywood? can carry 7 full-size people plus luggage??...

[68_427]

Why wasn't the Highlander included, is it not considered in this class?

Because it didn't win the last comparison, and hasn't had any major updates since then.

[AltinD]

These prices are crazy. A bunch of mainstream SUVs around the 50K mark? If you told VW fifteen years ago that they'd be able to sell SUVs for that much, they never would have made the Phaeton.

Huh? The Touareg was engineered almost at the same time as the Phaeton, which btw went on sale in Germany on 31 May 2002

[Raza]

Huh? The Touareg was engineered almost at the same time as the Phaeton, which btw went on sale in Germany on 31 May 2002

And this is down market from that for 50K!

[93JC]

Also: isn't it likeable instead of "likable"?

Yes, yes it is. You know English better than these pinche gringos.

[Tave]

Yeah the Touareg was solidly within the luxury class here.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

They're just so....pathetic looking.  I've never seen a man driving a minivan who didn't look defeated by it.  Hell, not even women seem so thrilled about them.  It's a complete capitulation to practicality; it's a car that signifies the surrender of your entire life to the lives of your soulsucking children.  It's a car that alerts people that yeah, you're probably sticky, you don't know why, and it wasn't for a fun reason.  It says that the person you were for the first ~25-30 years of your life is dead now, and all you're doing now is waiting for your new life to come to a drooling, diaper-wearing end in some retirement home while the kids you killed your 30 year old self for go live their lives and continue the cycle of life, death, new life, and waiting to die. 

[68_427]

And this is down market from that for 50K!

Well $50K in '02 is roughly $69K now

[12,000 RPM]

They're just so....pathetic looking.  I've never seen a man driving a minivan who didn't look defeated by it.  Hell, not even women seem so thrilled about them.  It's a complete capitulation to practicality; it's a car that signifies the surrender of your entire life to the lives of your soulsucking children.  It's a car that alerts people that yeah, you're probably sticky, you don't know why, and it wasn't for a fun reason.  It says that the person you were for the first ~25-30 years of your life is dead now, and all you're doing now is waiting for your new life to come to a drooling, diaper-wearing end in some retirement home while the kids you killed your 30 year old self for go live their lives and continue the cycle of life, death, new life, and waiting to die.

Man, you REALLY care a lot about the image you project to complete strangers.

[Raza]

Man, you REALLY care a lot about the image you project to complete strangers.

Everyone does.

[BimmerM3]

Everyone does.

Not to that extent.

If I cared about image, I wouldn't have bought the S2000. I specifically did NOT want to be seen as the young guy with too much money driving around in a fancy car to show off, which I'm certain is how a lot of people viewed me. But fuck those people - the S2k is awesome.

Likewise, if a minivan drove as good or better than the other vehicles that fit my needs, I'm not going to avoid buying one just because some stuck-up dude in a Z4 thinks I look pathetic.

[Raza]

Not to that extent.

If I cared about image, I wouldn't have bought the S2000. I specifically did NOT want to be seen as the young guy with too much money driving around in a fancy car to show off, which I'm certain is how a lot of people viewed me. But fuck those people - the S2k is awesome.

Your statements are incongruous.  "I don't care about image" and "I didn't want to project a certain image" are not the same thing.  Sporty disparages image projection, but if past conversations are any indication, he certainly chooses his clothes very carefully--all part of image projection.  Car, clothes, watch, hair, whatever; everyone cares about the image they project.

Likewise, if a minivan drove as good or better than the other vehicles that fit my needs, I'm not going to avoid buying one just because some stuck-up dude in a Z4 thinks I look pathetic.

As well you shouldn't.  Anyone who wants one is free to buy one.  Never said no one should buy them.  I don't recall advocating a law that says people shouldn't be allowed to buy minivans unless they sign a sworn statement affirming how pathetic they are.  I'm not aware of any proposal to make publicly shame minivan buyers. 

[BimmerM3]

Your statements are incongruous.  "I don't care about image" and "I didn't want to project a certain image" are not the same thing.  Sporty disparages image projection, but if past conversations are any indication, he certainly chooses his clothes very carefully--all part of image projection.  Car, clothes, watch, hair, whatever; everyone cares about the image they project.

Not to that extent.

[Cookie Monster]

I feel like the average consumer doesn't really care that much about how they are perceived driving a minivan. I thought SUV's mainly became popular to the average person because of the higher seating made it feel safer to drive?

Only reason I wouldn't get a minivan now is because they're all automatics. I'd definitely get a Previa or Mazda5 manual if I needed one, though.

[93JC]

Anecdotally, speaking as a thirty-something with friends who're popping out kids, there's a colossal stigma against minivans. Every friend I've had who has had a kid in the last couple years bought an SUV or crew-cab pickup. Minivans weren't even in consideration.

[Rich]

When the generation that grew up in the back seat of an SUV gets old enough to buy on their own, the mall special SUVs will have the same connotation as the minivan.

Hell, I have it now and didn't grow up in the back of one. There's no way ever I'll be caught dead owning an SUV.

[Raza]

I don't think there's anything extreme or unusual about not wanting to drive a minivan--there's a multibillion dollar SUV market that exists because of it. It's about as extreme as wearing a jersey of your home team to watch a football game.

[Raza]

When the generation that grew up in the back seat of an SUV gets old enough to buy on their own, the mall special SUVs will have the same connotation as the minivan.

Hell, I have it now and didn't grow up in the back of one. There's no way ever I'll be caught dead owning an SUV.

Not while they continue to control the narrative and lean into the image. Compare this ad:
http://youtu.be/G1Ci2UGrv1M

To this one:
http://youtu.be/kT07_c9mJLM

I mean, we're talking about one of the best SUV ads against one of the best minivan ads. And the connotations are clear. SUVs are about the independent and indefatigable spirit. Minivans are for your small children.

[MX793]

The image of the SUV is backed up by capability in a number of cases.  Minivans are built to haul people.  Their ability to tow is limited.  They aren't any better than a car off road or in deep snow.  Meanwhile, many SUVs can tow a small to medium sized boat or a snowmobile trailer or camper.  Those with legit 4WD systems and decent ground clearance can go off-road to reach remote campsites or go crawling on the dunes at the beach.  Ground clearance and a decent AWD/4WD system allows them to get through deep snow.  They also have space inside for people and their stuff.  If a single person or childless couple buys a Grand Cherokee, nobody thinks there's much strange about it.  Perhaps they have a boat or enjoy camping or own dogs or all 3.  What sort of response does a childless couple get if they buy a new minivan?  Or a single, childless individual?

[AutobahnSHO]

I feel like the average consumer doesn't really care that much about how they are perceived driving a minivan. I thought SUV's mainly became popular to the average person because of the higher seating made it feel safer to drive?

Minivan was practically the same as early SUVs. It's mostly the image and this

The image of the SUV is backed up by capability in a number of cases.  Minivans are built to haul people.  Their ability to tow is limited.  They aren't any better than a car off road or in deep snow.  Meanwhile, many SUVs can tow a small to medium sized boat or a snowmobile trailer or camper.  Those with legit 4WD systems and decent ground clearance can go off-road to reach remote campsites or go crawling on the dunes at the beach.  Ground clearance and a decent AWD/4WD system allows them to get through deep snow.  They also have space inside for people and their stuff.  If a single person or childless couple buys a Grand Cherokee, nobody thinks there's much strange about it.  Perhaps they have a boat or enjoy camping or own dogs or all 3.  What sort of response does a childless couple get if they buy a new minivan?  Or a single, childless individual?

is a part of that image. A vast majority of SUV drivers never take their vehicle off pavement. Yet they want the "option" to do ^^ and the different image instead of more space inside their vehicle. Minivans can tow popup campers and up to 3000lbs so small towing stuff is no sweat.

[MX793]

is a part of that image. A vast majority of SUV drivers never take their vehicle off pavement. Yet they want the "option" to do ^^ and the different image instead of more space inside their vehicle. Minivans can tow popup campers and up to 3000lbs so small towing stuff is no sweat.

Minivan can tow about the same as the typical midsize family sedan (or crossover ute).  Not much.  A small popup camper.  Maybe a light, open utility trailer for an ATV, jet ski, or a couple of dirtbikes.  Granted, that's about all a midsize crossover will handle as well (CX-9, Edge, Venza).  Many crossovers can't handle more than 2000 lbs (the GM crossovers are 1500-2000 lbs).  Some can handle a couple tons (Highlander, Pilot, and Explorer, in certain trims).  The GranCho can haul up to 7000 lbs, depending on trim and drivetrain.  Touaregs can pull 7700.  Back in the days of body-on-frame SUVs, 10-15 years ago, they were much more capable.  Trailblazers were 5000-7000 lbs.  Early 00s Explorers were rated for 5000-7000 lbs.  S10 Blazers were 5500-6000 lbs.  1st generation Jeep Liberties were rated at 5000 lbs.  4Runner, which is among the last of the old-school, pickup-based, BOF midsized SUVs is rated at 5000 lbs.  By around 2010, a lot of even the BOF rigs started losing towing capacity.  Last generation of BOF Explorers were only 3500 lbs.  Second generation Liberties were only 2000 lbs.

Still, modern crossovers, by virtue of aping the look of their sturdier forebears, carry an air of capability.  Most people probably have no clue that a new Jeep Cherokee or Chevy Traverse can't even tow half of what their predecessors of a decade or so ago could manage.  Looks like a duck, must quack like a duck.

[93JC]

When the generation that grew up in the back seat of an SUV gets old enough to buy on their own, the mall special SUVs will have the same connotation as the minivan.

I don't doubt it. One of these days I think it'll come back full circle and wagons will be cool again.

[68_427]

I don't doubt it. One of these days I think it'll come back full circle and wagons will be cool again.

They already are