Mercedes-AMG To Introduce '53' Line Of Vehicles

[cawimmer430]

Mercedes-AMG To Introduce '53' Line Of Vehicles



Mercedes-Benz is set to introduce a fleet of AMG 53 branded vehicles from 2018 as it looks to continue the expansion of its performance models.

As the name implies, AMG 53 models will slot between the existing AMG 43 and AMG 63 series' with the first model to receive the new badge expected to be the CLS53, as previously reported.

It is thought that the CLS53 will use a tuned version of the Mercedes M256 inline six-cylinder engine and deliver approximately 430 hp. Automotive News reports that in the CLS, the internal combustion engine will be mated to a small electric motor to improve fuel efficiency.

Following the CLS53's debut, a number of other AMG 53 models can be expected, including ones based around the E-Class Coupe and Cabriolet but there's no confirmation yet that all 53 variants will have hybrid propulsion.

Our sources suggest the CLS53 AMG will debut at November's Los Angeles Auto Show.


Link: http://www.carscoops.com/2017/08/mercedes-amg-to-introduce-53-line-of.html

[MX793]

The dilution of the AMG brand continues...

[cawimmer430]

The dilution of the AMG brand continues...

How is this "dilution?"

They are offering customers more CHOICES.

[MX793]

How is this "dilution?"

They are offering customers more CHOICES.

Are these actually built by AMG group?  Do they have AMG-built, AMG exclusive engines?  If not, they aren't real AMGs.  They are just MB whoring out the badge.

AMG represented the "top dog" offering for a given performance line.  They were special because, ignoring special edition, there was one AMG C class (C63) and one AMG E class.  Once they introduce these new 53 models, there will be as many, or more, "AMG" trim levels as non AMG.  That dilutes the brand.

[12,000 RPM]

How is this "dilution?"

They are offering customers more CHOICES.

Nobody wanted this.

[MX793]

Nobody wanted this.

Well, people who lusted after AMGs but could only afford a Benz may have wanted some lesser levels of AMG offering.

[cawimmer430]

Are these actually built by AMG group?  Do they have AMG-built, AMG exclusive engines?  If not, they aren't real AMGs.  They are just MB whoring out the badge.

All AMG engines are hand-built. Their philosophy is One Man, One Engine. The current '43, '45, '63 and '65 engines are all hand-built.

AMG represented the "top dog" offering for a given performance line.  They were special because, ignoring special edition, there was one AMG C class (C63) and one AMG E class.  Once they introduce these new 53 models, there will be as many, or more, "AMG" trim levels as non AMG.  That dilutes the brand.

I think you have to look at it from this perspective. AMG is working on becoming more of a brand within the Mercedes' brand, and that means offering models and engine choices. Giving their customers choices has never hurt anyone.

And what's to say that these smaller and lighter engines won't handle better than the heavier '63 V8? There could be potential performance and handling benefits to a lighter and equally powerful engine. If you are looking for a lighter, just-as-fast and potentially better-handling AMG car, those '43 and '53 models could be the cars for you. Less weight up front equates to better handling benefits no matter how complex a suspension is tuned. It's not like most people track them anyway, but for serious performance enthusiasts the lighter weight could be a deciding purchasing factor over a heavier V8 engine. Just saying...

And AMG is still exclusive, they are just offering more choices. I don't see the harm and I don't think it's brand dilution. You're overreacting, IMO. 

AMG has done this before and nobody complained - maybe because they don't remember. Both the W124 and W210 E-Classes were available as the E36 AMG, an inline-6 motor. Around the same time the W202 C-Class also featured that same base AMG engine in the form of the C36 AMG, and of course the V8 C43 AMG.

[cawimmer430]

E36 AMG C124, available in Sedan, Wagon, Coupe and Convertible form.





E36 AMG W210, available and sedan form and in wagon form, but wagons with this engine were very rare.

[cawimmer430]

Nobody wanted this.

Using that logic, nobody wanted a Lamborghini Gallardo LP550-2 Valentino Balboni because it has less power, no AWD and less features compared to the more hardcore Gallardo variants.

Come on, buddy. Choice is luxury.

[Xer0]

Jeez, another not-exactly-an-AMG.  I'm assuming this will be using the new Merc I6 though, which sounds like a great engine.  Still, this is causing way too much overlap in the AMG portfolio and the cars need something to differentiate them instead of just "this has more power".  Maybe these new '53's are coming in to replace the '43's and hopefully allow MB to reintroduce the 400/450 cars more focused to luxury.

[cawimmer430]

Jeez, another not-exactly-an-AMG.  I'm assuming this will be using the new Merc I6 though, which sounds like a great engine.  Still, this is causing way too much overlap in the AMG portfolio and the cars need something to differentiate them instead of just "this has more power".  Maybe these new '53's are coming in to replace the '43's and hopefully allow MB to reintroduce the 400/450 cars more focused to luxury.

But what makes an AMG?

In the past it was basically a standard Mercedes with a more powerful engine and some suspension and transmission tuning.

They've come a long way from that.

The current crop of AMGs are real driving machines and very competitive.

I personally don't have a problem with the current C/E/GLC43 AMG models. More choice is always a good thing. It's pretty straight-forward if you ask me, not confusing at all.

[Xer0]

But what makes an AMG?

In the past it was basically a standard Mercedes with a more powerful engine and some suspension and transmission tuning.

They've come a long way from that.

The current crop of AMGs are real driving machines and very competitive.

I personally don't have a problem with the current C/E/GLC43 AMG models. More choice is always a good thing. It's pretty straight-forward if you ask me, not confusing at all.

Explain to me the difference between the '43, this upcoming '53, and the current crop of '63's.  Since you love choice, I'm sure you will also be able to tell me why one choice is more compelling than the other.  Then, explain to me, if AMG as a name means nothing, why Mercedes is even using it as a brand.  Then if every Mercedes is all of a sudden an AMG, what does being an AMG even mean? 

Ultimately, AMG means whatever Mercedes wants it to mean, but if every Mercedes line is now subject to 3/4 separate AMG sub-lines within it, then AMG will no longer be anything special.  This isn't about choice, this is about diluting the brand.

[MX793]

All AMG engines are hand-built. Their philosophy is One Man, One Engine. The current '43, '45, '63 and '65 engines are all hand-built.




I think you have to look at it from this perspective. AMG is working on becoming more of a brand within the Mercedes' brand, and that means offering models and engine choices. Giving their customers choices has never hurt anyone.

And what's to say that these smaller and lighter engines won't handle better than the heavier '63 V8? There could be potential performance and handling benefits to a lighter and equally powerful engine. If you are looking for a lighter, just-as-fast and potentially better-handling AMG car, those '43 and '53 models could be the cars for you. Less weight up front equates to better handling benefits no matter how complex a suspension is tuned. It's not like most people track them anyway, but for serious performance enthusiasts the lighter weight could be a deciding purchasing factor over a heavier V8 engine. Just saying...

And AMG is still exclusive, they are just offering more choices. I don't see the harm and I don't think it's brand dilution. You're overreacting, IMO. 

AMG has done this before and nobody complained - maybe because they don't remember. Both the W124 and W210 E-Classes were available as the E36 AMG, an inline-6 motor. Around the same time the W202 C-Class also featured that same base AMG engine in the form of the C36 AMG, and of course the V8 C43 AMG.

I'm not criticizing an AMG with <8 cylinders.  I'm well aware that there is a history of 6 cylinder AMGs.  What I've criticized is selling significantly lesser AMGs, at a lower price, simultaneously with the big dog AMG.  Yes, Mercedes built an AMG C36 and C43 version of the W202, but they were never offered simultaneously.  C43 replaced the C36.

And the 43 cars do not have AMG hand-built engines.  In fact, the car sold as the AMG C43 today was sold as the C450 AMG-Sport a year ago (IOW, not a full AMG).  Nothing has changed other than Mercedes trying to market this car as a full-blooded AMG rather than a Mercedes with some AMG bits.  Great car or not, it's a cheapening of the AMG brand.  If you want an AMG C class or E class but don't want the big engine, you don't want the AMG, you just want the badge.  Not saying MB shouldn't build these cars, just that they shouldn't be branded as full-blooded AMG.  They aren't, and it cheapens the meaning of having a full-blooded AMG.

[SJ_GTI]

Taking a step back, it almost feels like there is an evolution going on at MB and BMW.

It used to be that simply owning a BMW or MB was considered an elite level of car ownership. But as those companies have drifted downmarket (to capture additional sales and profits) it has become fairly common for people to drive BMW's and MB's. Now the people who truly want to set themselves apart as driving truly elite cars will end up buying BMW M models and MB AMG models. At a certain point will seeing an M3 or M5 be about as common as it used to be to see a 3-series or 5-series? AMG is clearly now offering a line of AMG variants which seem to include "bargain" AMG's (the 43 series models). BMW so far as stuck with using "M Sport" models instead of just having different M3's...but even that is change in a way. Nowadays if you want the "true" M3 you need to get the M3 CSL, not the standard M3. BMW has sort of dipped their toe in 2-series by calling the top model the M240 (formerly M235i).

[68_427]

Power comes from a 3.0-liter twin-turbocharged V-6, which produces 362 horsepower at 6000 rpm and 384 lb-ft of torque at 2000 rpm. Mated to a nine-speed automatic, the engine makes sweet noises and revs happily up to its 6500-rpm redline. Still, it's not quite a true AMG engine—at least not to the extent of the specially developed, mostly Affalterbach-built "one-man-one-engine" powerhouses fitted into the traditional AMG models.

And from the Mercedes website:

"AMG-enhanced 3.0L V6 biturbo"

Compare that to "Handcrafted AMG 2.0L inline-4 turbocharged" and "Handcrafted AMG 4.0L V8 biturbo"

I'm with the camp that the brand is being diluted.  It's like if Chevy made a Camaro 3.6L SS

[Submariner]

And from the Mercedes website:

"AMG-enhanced 3.0L V6 biturbo"

Compare that to "Handcrafted AMG 2.0L inline-4 turbocharged" and "Handcrafted AMG 4.0L V8 biturbo"

I'm with the camp that the brand is being diluted.  It's like if Chevy made a Camaro 3.6L SS

Merc used to make a C32 (supercharged V6), a C36 (a H/O V6) and a C43 (4.3L V8)

[12,000 RPM]

At a certain point will seeing an M3 or M5 be about as common as it used to be to see a 3-series or 5-series?

No way, "true" ///M cars are still very rare.

Nowadays if you want the "true" M3 you need to get the M3 CSL, not the standard M3. BMW has sort of dipped their toe in 2-series by calling the top model the M240 (formerly M235i).

I don't necessarily agree. It is a bit of a bummer that BMW seems keen to push out ///M cars before they are fully developed, only getting it right once they get the "Competition Pack" out. And BMW has done the Mxxxi thing in the past- they had the M535i and the M635CSi I think. The 5 was just a regular 5 with a body kit and suspension but the 6 was actually the M6 with a different name in other markets.

In any case, AMG and Mercedes in general is diluting the brand. With the E class you can get an E300 in with the AMG Line exterior, or the AMG E43, or the AMG E63S. And now they are going to squeeze the E53 in between that. Why? Why not just make all MBs AMGs? None of this makes sense. The whole thing reeks of confusion and desperation, and has rendered the AMG badge meaningless.

[68_427]

Merc used to make a C32 (supercharged V6), a C36 (a H/O V6) and a C43 (4.3L V8)

The difference is those were all the top of the line C-Class and the only AMG C-Class at the time.  We aren't saying that they are diluting the brand by offering a V6 powered AMG C-Class, but because they are offering a V6 C-Class with an engine not built by AMG with a full fledged AMG badge alongside the C63 AMG.

Using the W202 as an example it's the same as them offering the C43 AMG, and then introducing a cheaper AMG model using the C280 engine and calling it the C30 AMG or something like that.

[MX793]

Merc used to make a C32 (supercharged V6), a C36 (a H/O V6) and a C43 (4.3L V8)

I don't believe they were ever sold simultaneously.  At any given time, there was only 1 AMG C class for sale.  C43 replaced C36.  C32 replaced C43.  Merc wasn't offering multiple AMG C classes in any given model year.

[Galaxy]

No way, "true" ///M cars are still very rare.

Yes, but you also have the ///M logo on non M cars, with the M performance stuff. Audi has also diluted the S cars, with the whole S Line, that 80% of Audis seem to have. However,  Audi did something right in that the RS cars are separated.

[12,000 RPM]

Is there a solution? I want to say I liked the German brands when they were simpler and more spartan... but has the market forced their hand?

I get the feeling a lot more people would be into better design and build quality than the deluge of tech that has come to define luxury (and in the end ALWAYS ends up democratized, cheapening it). What can be done to make ///M+AMG+S matter again?

[cawimmer430]

Explain to me the difference between the '43, this upcoming '53, and the current crop of '63's.

'43 and '53 are V6s, the '63 is a V8; biggest difference. Think of the '43 and '53 as "entry-level" AMG engines.

Since you love choice, I'm sure you will also be able to tell me why one choice is more compelling than the other.  Then, explain to me, if AMG as a name means nothing, why Mercedes is even using it as a brand.  Then if every Mercedes is all of a sudden an AMG, what does being an AMG even mean?

I'm not the target market of these cars, but performance wise for my tastes a '43 would be more than sufficient. I also expect the lighter weight upfront to have handling benefits than the heavier '63s.

Why offer customers only one engine when they can have a choice of three? AMG would be foolish to develop these if there weren't a potential market for them. Their market research has shown that their customers perhaps want more engine choices, and this is the reaction to that demand.

[cawimmer430]

I'm not criticizing an AMG with <8 cylinders.  I'm well aware that there is a history of 6 cylinder AMGs.  What I've criticized is selling significantly lesser AMGs, at a lower price, simultaneously with the big dog AMG.  Yes, Mercedes built an AMG C36 and C43 version of the W202, but they were never offered simultaneously.  C43 replaced the C36.

The V8 C43 replaced the inline-6 C36 (and a year after the C43 hit the scene a C55 AMG was also available) in the W202, yes, true.

The successor model in the W203 was the V6 Supercharged C32 AMG, and later the V8 C55 AMG in the facelifted W203 C-Class, which necessitated the nose of then CLK. Do you consider the original W203 C32 AMG a step down over the W202 V8 C43 and C55s?

Is this next example also "brand dilution"? The facelifted W203 sedan, wagon and Sportcoupe were available as C30 CDI AMG - DIESELS. Not many were made, but it remains a historical fact that AMG experimented with performance diesels.

And the 43 cars do not have AMG hand-built engines.  In fact, the car sold as the AMG C43 today was sold as the C450 AMG-Sport a year ago (IOW, not a full AMG).  Nothing has changed other than Mercedes trying to market this car as a full-blooded AMG rather than a Mercedes with some AMG bits.  Great car or not, it's a cheapening of the AMG brand.  If you want an AMG C class or E class but don't want the big engine, you don't want the AMG, you just want the badge.  Not saying MB shouldn't build these cars, just that they shouldn't be branded as full-blooded AMG.  They aren't, and it cheapens the meaning of having a full-blooded AMG.

My bad, you're right about the C43 AMG engine. But it's still an engine that was tuned by AMG, albeit developed by Mercedes.

But what exactly is your issue with this motor/model? The performance numbers are impressive as is the power output. Wouldn't you agree? It's got AMG DNA, even if it was developed by MB. And in the past AMG took existing Mercedes' engines and tuned them for their cars. They still do that. The only in-house-developed engine that AMG has made which I can think of is the naturally aspirated 6.2-l V8.

[cawimmer430]

Out of curiosity, do you guys have issues with companies offering sportier body kits for their more base models? Do you consider that "brand dilution" as well?

For example, you can get an A180 CDI with an AMG body kit.

A BMW 2-Series Active Tourer can be ordered with an M-Sport body kit.

An Audi A3 could be visually improved with an S-Line body kit.

The Lexus CT200h had an F-Sport body kit option.


Hell, my dad's 2010 E350 CGI has an AMG body kit, but it's not an AMG...

[Xer0]

The issue that people have isn't that MB shouldn't offer people choice, its that offering too much AMG makes the brand worth less.  There is no reason that a 43/53 can't just be a Mercedes 430/530; there is nothing that makes them an AMG.  Assuming this '53 applies to the C class, the US will have a C300, a C43AMG, a C53AMG, a C63AMG, and a C63AMG S so, more AMG's than the normal model.  Brands mean something, and AMG is a strong brand, but MB needs to be careful not dilute it to the ground.  Everyone also wants a Ferrari, but that's only because no one can have them.

[MX793]

The V8 C43 replaced the inline-6 C36 (and a year after the C43 hit the scene a C55 AMG was also available) in the W202, yes, true.

The successor model in the W203 was the V6 Supercharged C32 AMG, and later the V8 C55 AMG in the facelifted W203 C-Class, which necessitated the nose of then CLK. Do you consider the original W203 C32 AMG a step down over the W202 V8 C43 and C55s?

Not sure where you're getting the notion that I think less of the car because it has a 6-cylinder instead of an 8.  That has nothing to do with it.  If Merc had replaced the last C63 with a new one that has a similarly powerful turbo I6, I wouldn't think any less of it (well, maybe a little since I do love me some NA V8).  And, no, I don't think the C32 was a lesser car than the C43.  Why?  Because it matched the performance of the older V8 car and was the top-dog C class of its vintage.  It was not "a" AMG C class available in 2001.  It was the AMG C class available in 2001.  The one-and-only AMG C class available.    Mercedes didn't also offer a cheaper, slower, weaker, C30 or C28 AMG as a sister or companion car.  They had one AMG C class and if you wanted the fastest, baddest C-class with a 3-pointed star on the grille, that was what you bought.  When somebody saw the C32 AMG badge on it, they knew that there was no faster C class available.  That made it special.

As an aside, the W202 C55 was not a standard, or "official", AMG offering.  It was essentially a tuner car out of AMG's custom vehicle shop, specially built to order customers who wanted their C43 upgraded above and beyond.  You couldn't order one at a dealership showroom, you bought a C43 and then paid to have it upgraded.  Sort of like the Shelby Super Snake, in which a customer buys a Shelby GT500 and then pays Shelby to further upgrade it.

Is this next example also "brand dilution"? The facelifted W203 sedan, wagon and Sportcoupe were available as C30 CDI AMG - DIESELS. Not many were made, but it remains a historical fact that AMG experimented with performance diesels.

Wasn't a fan of the diesels, personally.  Also note that the AMG diesel C class was the one and only time AMG delved into performance diesels.  I give them a nod for trying something different, I guess.

My bad, you're right about the C43 AMG engine. But it's still an engine that was tuned by AMG, albeit developed by Mercedes.

Great, but that doesn't make it an AMG motor.  An AMG engine is hand built by one of the master craftsman at AMG.  This is a mass produced motor that AMG group helped develop some tuning for.  Does the fact that Harley Davidson had Porsche's help developing the V-rod motor make that a Porsche engine?  Should Harley put a Porsche badge on their bike?  Should Pontiac have put a Lotus badge on the later Fieros that had Lotus tuned suspensions?

But what exactly is your issue with this motor/model? The performance numbers are impressive as is the power output. Wouldn't you agree? It's got AMG DNA, even if it was developed by MB. And in the past AMG took existing Mercedes' engines and tuned them for their cars. They still do that. The only in-house-developed engine that AMG has made which I can think of is the naturally aspirated 6.2-l V8.

I have no problem with the car itself.  My grief is with the way they are branding it.  When they were selling it as a C450 AMG-sport last year, did you hear me complaining?  Why do they have to pawn it as a full-blooded AMG model?  What's wrong with selling it as the Mercedes Benz C400 or 450 or whatever the latest number-that-doesn't-actually-reflect-either-the-engine-size-or-output is?  If they absolutely must include an AMG tie-in, they can put a little "tuned by AMG" badge on the trunk or wherever.  If they must, I'd even tolerate a the "AMG-Sport" moniker as a way of denoting models that aren't full AMG but that had AMG contribution.  But at the end of the day, the AMG model should represent the fastest model in the line.  If I see a car with "Cxx AMG" emblazoned on the tail, I shouldn't have to wonder, or ask the owner, if that's the top dog AMG or the next one, or two, tiers down.  By inserting other, lesser AMG models within the C or E or whatever class lineup alongside the top dog, they have cheapened the meaning of having the AMG model.  Especially when that lower tier AMG isn't even a real, full-blooded AMG with a proper, hand-built AMG engine.

[MX793]

Out of curiosity, do you guys have issues with companies offering sportier body kits for their more base models? Do you consider that "brand dilution" as well?

For example, you can get an A180 CDI with an AMG body kit.

A BMW 2-Series Active Tourer can be ordered with an M-Sport body kit.

An Audi A3 could be visually improved with an S-Line body kit.

The Lexus CT200h had an F-Sport body kit option.


Hell, my dad's 2010 E350 CGI has an AMG body kit, but it's not an AMG...

I have no problem with offering body kits or things like the "M sport package" provided the car isn't badged as a full-blooded M/AMG/S/RS model. 

[MX793]

The issue that people have isn't that MB shouldn't offer people choice, its that offering too much AMG makes the brand worth less.  There is no reason that a 43/53 can't just be a Mercedes 430/530; there is nothing that makes them an AMG.  Assuming this '53 applies to the C class, the US will have a C300, a C43AMG, a C53AMG, a C63AMG, and a C63AMG S so, more AMG's than the normal model.  Brands mean something, and AMG is a strong brand, but MB needs to be careful not dilute it to the ground.

Exactly.  If most of the line up is an "AMG", why not just change the entire brand from Mercedes Benz to Mercedes-AMG, or just AMG, and brand everything they build that way?

[SJ_GTI]

Yes, but you also have the ///M logo on non M cars, with the M performance stuff. Audi has also diluted the S cars, with the whole S Line, that 80% of Audis seem to have. However,  Audi did something right in that the RS cars are separated.

Yeah with the B8 the S4 was really just the top level A4 model (essentially competed with the 335i), but only offered in a "sport" trim. The B9 is similar, but even more luxury oriented. The normal A4 (with sport package) is offered with 6MT and a 7-speed DSG while the S4 is only offered with a traditional torque converter automatic.

[Raza]

Are these actually built by AMG group?  Do they have AMG-built, AMG exclusive engines?  If not, they aren't real AMGs.  They are just MB whoring out the badge.

AMG represented the "top dog" offering for a given performance line.  They were special because, ignoring special edition, there was one AMG C class (C63) and one AMG E class.  Once they introduce these new 53 models, there will be as many, or more, "AMG" trim levels as non AMG.  That dilutes the brand.

Competing with BMW slapping M-Sport badges on everything, I suppose.