The $120K, 12x MPH question

Started by 12,000 RPM, November 09, 2017, 12:48:40 PM

Which of these ~$120K, 12x MPH trappin' cars would you actually buy?

991 C2S (3.2 0-60, 11.5@121)
9 (60%)
Z06 (3-3.2 0-60, 11-11.2 @127)
4 (26.7%)
E63 S AMG (3.4 0-60, 11.7 @ 122)
1 (6.7%)
GT-R (3 0-60, 11.2@125)
0 (0%)
Tesla P100D (2.something 0-60, 10.6@125)
1 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 15

12,000 RPM

ZR1 thread got me thinking.... for straight line speed at least, "supercar" performance has been fully democratized. (Actually, supercar performance is a step further- cars like the 488 GTB and Huracan trap in the mid 130s). So knowing now that for all intents and purposes these cars are about as fast as each other, which would you refinance your house to buy?
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

giant_mtb

Z06 because it probably has the lowest cost of living. Besides maybe the GT-R or Tesla.  But I wouldn't want the Tesla because it runs on Energizer bunnies.  GT-R would be sweet, but this is 'Murrica.

CaminoRacer

2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Xer0

911, easy.  I'd do a GS over the Z06 personally so it doesn't really appeal to me.  Hell, I'd probably do a Boxster GTS over all of them, but its not an option  :cry:

2o6

Why is the Tesla even on here? It can only do that number basically only once.

r0tor

I'll just settle for an M3 and a bunch of extra money
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on November 09, 2017, 03:08:20 PM
I'll just settle for an M3 and a bunch of extra money

Not an option dude.

Otherwise I'd be like "a C5 Z06, an NA Miata, an FJ62 Land Cruiser with trailer, and a Dixie Chopper lawn mower."
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

r0tor

Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 09, 2017, 03:33:48 PM
Not an option dude.

Otherwise I'd be like "a C5 Z06, an NA Miata, an FJ62 Land Cruiser with trailer, and a Dixie Chopper lawn mower."

It traps at 12Xmph
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

12,000 RPM

Quote from: r0tor on November 09, 2017, 03:52:51 PM
It traps at 12Xmph
Your kid will think less of you if you buy a used car :lol:

No but seriously the rules are the rules.

You guys know my choice. 911 all dayay, the rich man's GTI.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

My kid would love me getting an M3... He wears the M School shirt I bought him all the damn time
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

911.  Most well-rounded of the bunch.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on November 09, 2017, 03:52:51 PM
It traps at 12Xmph

Doing the math, I have about 40 grand left over from that collection. I could get the lawnmower to trap at 120 for that.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

12,000 RPM

I mean a $10K motorcycle will trap 120s with the shittiest rider ever on board. Maybe for my next thread I will do "Cheapest street legal cars to trap in the 120s"
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Gotta-Qik-C7

2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

r0tor

Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 09, 2017, 04:33:00 PM
Doing the math, I have about 40 grand left over from that collection. I could get the lawnmower to trap at 120 for that.

Fine... the New M3 CS and I will pay a dealer rape charge and option it out with european delivery and M School
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

12,000 RPM

There's something about a car that starts at 30K being kitted out to six figures that just rubs me the wrong way...
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

While I agree, is it any better then a $90k car kitted out to sell for $294k?
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

12,000 RPM

Yes because a 90K car can be a good base to expand on. To get a car to 30K you have to cut corners
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

Don't know... The M3 has a completely different power train, suspension, brakes, suspension mounting points, body work, electronics, ect...

In most companies, it has enough changes to be a completely different product line.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Lebowski

Probably the 911 followed by ZO6 but I would take a loaded CRV + $90k over any of them.

CALL_911

I'd probably go 991 but I do love the Z06.


2004 S2000
2016 340xi

MX793

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 09, 2017, 07:51:33 PM
Yes because a 90K car can be a good base to expand on. To get a car to 30K you have to cut corners

You're making some rather bold assumptions there.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

veeman

Mercedes because it's the only one that's good for long distance travel with family and luggage and you can have fun on highway onramps and offramps.  I would have picked the GT-R but recently in last several years reviews have indicated it's ride sucks; too racetrack.  I don't know.  I'd probably rather have a Porsche Cayman than any other Porsche right now, outside of exotics.  The Panamera wasn't on your list.  It's still not very good looking. Can you do more than a few racetrack runs with a Z06 before you have to let it cool off? 

Just for me to drive, I'd take the Tesla. 

12,000 RPM

Quote from: MX793 on November 10, 2017, 05:58:28 AM
You're making some rather bold assumptions there.
Somebody has to

And I don't think it's that bold... a car with a $90K base price has a lot more latitude for things like interior materials and suspension design than a $30K car.

Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

12,000 RPM

Also r0tor I'm a little surprised at your M3 fanboyism; seems to be the polar opposite of the RX-8 in many ways. For all its flaws the RX-8 was very special
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MX793

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 10, 2017, 11:50:11 AM
Somebody has to

And I don't think it's that bold... a car with a $90K base price has a lot more latitude for things like interior materials and suspension design than a $30K car.



One glaring hole in that argument is that the retail price actually represents the true cost of the product.  I'd point out that Porsche averages 5-figure profits per vehicle sold.  $17K per vehicle with an average selling price of $90K.  BMW averages about $5K per vehicle sold, and on a base 3er, it's probably around 2500-3K.  There's a lot of badge tax associated with Porsche (several times what BMW charges).

Secondly, ignoring brand-name markups, the cost of a vehicle is more than the cost of labor or materials that go into making it.  You have the myriad non-recurring expenses, such as tooling and development costs.  And corporate overhead (somebody's gotta pay the CEO's multi-million-dollar salary).  Here, volume comes into play, as the more you make/sell, the more those expenses are diluted.  BMW sells over twice as many 3/4 series globally as Porsche sells cars annually.  BMW moves over 500K 3/4 series models per year.  Porsche moves about 30K 911s.  BMW likely spent more money and effort in development and design of the 3er than Porsche did the 911, but since the cost is so much more diluted by the far higher volume, it doesn't show up in the sale price.

Suppose that both BMW and Porsche spent 750 million in developing their respective models.  Both set their pricing such that they recoup the development cost in 2 years.  BMW banks on 500K/year 3er sales and would need to add $750 to the price of each car to cover development costs.  Porsche, moving 30K units per year, would need to add $12,500 to the price of each 911 above and beyond recurring costs (material and labor) to cover development costs.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

12,000 RPM

I mean, even with your numbers in mind, a $30K BMW costs $26K or so to make, a $90K Porsche costs $75K. I doubt the manhours per car is much different, and even if it is that's baked into the cost. Most importantly the end result reflects my point. Aside from piddly shit like parking sensors a $90K 911 is a nicer car than a $90K M4. Dynamically, build quality wise, w/e... and that's a general trend across the board.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MX793

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 10, 2017, 02:41:49 PM
I mean, even with your numbers in mind, a $30K BMW costs $26K or so to make, a $90K Porsche costs $75K. I doubt the manhours per car is much different, and even if it is that's baked into the cost. Most importantly the end result reflects my point. Aside from piddly shit like parking sensors a $90K 911 is a nicer car than a $90K M4. Dynamically, build quality wise, w/e... and that's a general trend across the board.

Profit is just a small piece of the picture.  You'd have to extract the NRE component in the price as well, which is impossible unless you're privy to the financial details of both companies.  But if we assume that the development costs of the 911 and 3er are the same, based on differences in volume, it would be at least a full order of magnitude higher in the Porsche's pricing.  If we were talking about 2 cars that sold in comparable numbers, the argument that the more expensive one is a comensurately "better" car is much more valid.  A 911 or Boxster/Cayman vs a Miata, for example.  But given the differences in volume between the 3 series and the 911, that the Porsche is ~3x the price is a shaky argument that the Porsche has 3x the amount of engineering or 3x the complexity or 3x quality of materials, or some combination thereof, behind it.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

r0tor

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 10, 2017, 11:52:07 AM
Also r0tor I'm a little surprised at your M3 fanboyism; seems to be the polar opposite of the RX-8 in many ways. For all its flaws the RX-8 was very special

I love the 8.  It's extremely 1 dimensional in many ways though.  While it's seating gives it some flexibility, it's ultra hyper personality doesn't.

What I love the most about the M3 is it's flexibility.  It can be a weapon on the track.  It can be a great cruiser just as easily.  No problem going to get groceries and blowing by people on the way or fitting the family.  Love the somewhat simplistic interior and aggressive exterior.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Soup DeVille

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 10, 2017, 11:52:07 AM
Also r0tor I'm a little surprised at your M3 fanboyism; seems to be the polar opposite of the RX-8 in many ways. For all its flaws the RX-8 was very special

So the M3 with all of its merits is very mundane?
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator