Death of Mainstream Sedans?

[Morris Minor]

Read a piece (sorry, can't link - can't remember where is was  ) speculating that some manufacturers are considering discontinuing sales of traditional 3-box sedans in the US. Exceptions cited were Toyota & Honda, whose mainstream sedans crush the rest. Possible strategies might be to introduce hatchback/liftbacks, that have some of the utility of SUVs but still with sedan goodness.


But D-Segment-sized hatchbacks are alien to most Americans - so I dunno. But it's plausible that Ford say, could ditch the Fusion in the US & try the liftback Mondeo, or even the estate version.


Thoughts?

[Laconian]

The only things I like sedans for is for car rentals, because you can carry your luggage discretely without advertising it to everyone that peers in the window, and for sound insulation. Trunks capture the sound that comes up through the rear wheel wells.

Otherwise, I'm quite happy to see more five-door options on the road. You can do a lot more with less if you're working with a two-box shape, and I appreciate efficiency.

[giant_mtb]

As long as they don't all look like the CrossTour.

[CaminoRacer]

Otherwise, I'm quite happy to see more five-door options on the road. You can do a lot more with less if you're working with a two-box shape, and I appreciate efficiency.

Wagons and hatchbacks, yes. CUVs are stupid.

[12,000 RPM]

There are a lot of pieces to this. Just going to spit ball.

- C segment is the new D segment. Something like a Corolla + Civic are as big, fast and refined as a Camcord from ~10-15 years ago, while costing significantly less to own and operate. Functionally, aside from fitting a rear facing infant seat, there's no practical upside to an Accord over a Civic for the first 2 standard distributions (F2SDs) of the market.

- Obviously, crossovers. Again, coming back to the prior point.. the mainstream sedan market has gravitated towards a 105-107" wheelbase for probably the last 40 years. With crossovers eating the sedan market everything on the fringes has become that much more redundant.

- Luxury leases and the glut of CPO cars on the market haven't helped. Between the low rates and manufacturer incentives/subsidies, it's never been easier to get behind the wheel of something with a badge that makes you matter™. Most people are OK with buying a used car. For $25K, what sounds better... a mid grade Camry or a 5 series?

Personally, something like a top grade Civic sounds way more enticing to me than a mid grade Accord. All the C-segment needs is a little more room and a good bit more refinement, at least in higher trims. Access to bigger engines would help too... Civic with the 2.0T + 10AT would be a rocket, but not everyone wants to look like a 15 year old in the CTR.

The free market at work....

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

The sedan is dying a slow death. I'm willing to bet most car manufacturers will be carrying only one or two sedans in the near future!

[cawimmer430]

What has the world come to? A future in which everyone is literally driving around in an SUVs and CUVs?

Yuck. How depressing and how boring.


I am not opposed to SUVs as I find a handful of them quite nice, mainly the Mazda CX-5, Mercedes GLC and Citroen DS7 Crossback. But if I don't do off-roading then I don't need a frigging SUV. Period. I just can't imagine buying an SUV and using it like a car. But that's just weird old me.

[veeman]

Even Honda is feeling the sedan hate.  They have a relative glut of Accords and dealers want Honda corporate to start incentivizing them to move them off the lot.

[Xer0]

Even Honda is feeling the sedan hate.  They have a relative glut of Accords and dealers want Honda corporate to start incentivizing them to move them off the lot.

My dad just bought an Accord Sport for like 21.5K and that is A LOT of car for that price.  Strangely enough, they are not offering any finance incentives on the car which I think will get just as many people through the door, if not more.

[12,000 RPM]

What has the world come to? A future in which everyone is literally driving around in an SUVs and CUVs?

Yuck. How depressing and how boring.


I am not opposed to SUVs as I find a handful of them quite nice, mainly the Mazda CX-5, Mercedes GLC and Citroen DS7 Crossback. But if I don't do off-roading then I don't need a frigging SUV. Period. I just can't imagine buying an SUV and using it like a car. But that's just weird old me.

Sedans and hatchbacks are, for the most part, every bit as boring as CUVs and SUVs. And no, people aren't buying CR-Vs or C4 Cactii to go off road. Crossovers are essentially tall hatchbacks/wagons.

[Morris Minor]

My CR-V is a better vehicle for the bendy, twisty, hilly narrow roads here; it's sure-footed, nimble and the CVT is always in the perfect sweet-spot ratio.Very practical. The G37 is much less happy in this environment.
But for long journeys on wide open highways - I'll take the G.

[ifcar]

Even Honda is feeling the sedan hate.  They have a relative glut of Accords and dealers want Honda corporate to start incentivizing them to move them off the lot.

That's less about the death of sedans and more that Toyota has better deals on the Camry. Same with CR-V vs. RAV4, though to less of an extreme.

[2o6]

Yeah, Honda hasn't really had any lease deals on the Accord.

[12,000 RPM]

I can respect that. Volume doesn't mean shit without profit and it seems like everyone is willing to give cars away just to retain market share. IT's a big race to the bottom.

[cawimmer430]

Sedans and hatchbacks are, for the most part, every bit as boring as CUVs and SUVs. And no, people aren't buying CR-Vs or C4 Cactii to go off road. Crossovers are essentially tall hatchbacks/wagons.

True, but there are also a handful of exciting hatchbacks just like there are some exciting SUVs.

[veeman]

Every single winter season, at least a few times at work and just out and about, I hear comments to the effect that someone can't get to work or someone needs to leave early from work because of the winter storm and that person doesn't have an SUV.

This is why sedans are failing to a large part. There's other reasons for sure but in the northern half of the U.S. there is a general feeling that these vehicles are suboptimal for winter driving. Dealerships keep reinforcing this idea to new buyers too. Many many drivers have no clue to disable to traction control when they're stuck in their driveway. They have no clue that AWD does nothing for braking.

My sister in law kept getting flat tires in her Elantra from pot holes. Her father changed the tires to run flats and she still had to keep getting them replaced. The Costco tire department, where she got the run flats, knew her by her first name she brought her car in so many times.  Even though she was underwater and owed more for the car than the car was worth, she traded it in for a used Rogue. I told her I would get her car fixed for her on my dime. I told her the problem was the sport wheels the car came with and I would change out her wheels and get a wheel/tire combo that wouldn't be as prone to flats. My wife and mother in law nixed it. "She needs an SUV."

[12,000 RPM]

True, but there are also a handful of exciting hatchbacks just like there are some exciting SUVs.

Which is why they can coexist in peace.

If anything, the only sedans and hatchbacks left will be the exciting ones, as those are the ones anyone will want to buy.

[Morris Minor]

Every single winter season, at least a few times at work and just out and about, I hear comments to the effect that someone can't get to work or someone needs to leave early from work because of the winter storm and that person doesn't have an SUV.

This is why sedans are failing to a large part. There's other reasons for sure but in the northern half of the U.S. there is a general feeling that these vehicles are suboptimal for winter driving. Dealerships keep reinforcing this idea to new buyers too. Many many drivers have no clue to disable to traction control when they're stuck in their driveway. They have no clue that AWD does nothing for braking.

I'd take an FWD sedan on decent snow tires over an AWD CUV on all seasons.

[SJ_GTI]

I'd take an FWD sedan on decent snow tires over an AWD CUV on all seasons.

Heck, I would take a RWD pickemup truck with snow tires over an AWD CUV. 

[MX793]

Every single winter season, at least a few times at work and just out and about, I hear comments to the effect that someone can't get to work or someone needs to leave early from work because of the winter storm and that person doesn't have an SUV.

This is why sedans are failing to a large part. There's other reasons for sure but in the northern half of the U.S. there is a general feeling that these vehicles are suboptimal for winter driving. Dealerships keep reinforcing this idea to new buyers too. Many many drivers have no clue to disable to traction control when they're stuck in their driveway. They have no clue that AWD does nothing for braking.

My sister in law kept getting flat tires in her Elantra from pot holes. Her father changed the tires to run flats and she still had to keep getting them replaced. The Costco tire department, where she got the run flats, knew her by her first name she brought her car in so many times.  Even though she was underwater and owed more for the car than the car was worth, she traded it in for a used Rogue. I told her I would get her car fixed for her on my dime. I told her the problem was the sport wheels the car came with and I would change out her wheels and get a wheel/tire combo that wouldn't be as prone to flats. My wife and mother in law nixed it. "She needs an SUV."

Maybe your SIL should learn to pay attention to the road and not plow into potholes at full speed?

[12,000 RPM]

Maybe your SIL should learn to pay attention to the road and not plow into potholes at full speed?

SHE NEEDS AN SUV.

[veeman]

Maybe your SIL should learn to pay attention to the road and not plow into potholes at full speed?

Oh she's a bad driver for sure.  Not confident, not great vision, impatient personality, etc etc.  The truth is though that pot holed filled roads are not a great setting for low profile tires on 17 inch alloy rims especially given the shitty suspension of the car.  There's barely any sidewall. They look good but it's a really bad wheel tire combo for winter driving on crappy pot hole filled roads.  I was gonna replace them with 16 inch wheels on Michelins but everyone except me told her she needs an SUV.  The truth of the matter is a Rogue is a better car for her. 

[Xer0]

An Ex girlfriend of mine owns a Rogue.  I hate that car just cause of her lol.  Besides, the average AWD system in the cute-ute segment is pretty crappy.  Although I do wonder if maybe auto makers should start offering some wheel and tire packages that aren't all devoted to looks.

[CALL_911]

Maybe your SIL should learn to pay attention to the road and not plow into potholes at full speed?

Duh, but to the average person who doesn't give a shit about how they drive, their car, or anything pertaining to their car, it's much easier to just blame it on the car and get a "stronger" tool that can "deal with" her abuse.

I'm not saying it's correct, but that's how lots and lots of people think. Veeman's got a point.

[CALL_911]

I'd take an FWD sedan on decent snow tires over an AWD CUV on all seasons.

Keep in mind you're posting on a car forum which puts you in the 99.8th percentile WRT automotive knowledge.

Most of my friends who dont know shit about cars think AWD (no matter how shitty the system) is a substitute for snow tires. This is another reason why CUVs are taking off.

Operating under the assumption that AWD and snow tires are substitutes, why on earth wouldn't I spend the extra money on something that is capable year round without the need for swapping tires out once a year?

Honestly, if that was how it worked, I'd probably go for AWD and all seasons year round too.

[2o6]

As I've said before, even the "shit" AWD systems are still good in winter for most drivers.

[Morris Minor]

Heck, I would take a RWD pickemup truck with snow tires over an AWD CUV. 

/Morris scampers out to check whether tires on AWD CUV are lame or not.

[Morris Minor]

Keep in mind you're posting on a car forum which puts you in the 99.8th percentile WRT automotive knowledge.

Most of my friends who dont know shit about cars think AWD (no matter how shitty the system) is a substitute for snow tires. This is another reason why CUVs are taking off.

Operating under the assumption that AWD and snow tires are substitutes, why on earth wouldn't I spend the extra money on something that is capable year round without the need for swapping tires out once a year?

Honestly, if that was how it worked, I'd probably go for AWD and all seasons year round too.

That's the rub - managing two sets of tires is a pain in the arse - particularly if you don't have anywhere to store them.

[MX793]

Oh she's a bad driver for sure.  Not confident, not great vision, impatient personality, etc etc.  The truth is though that pot holed filled roads are not a great setting for low profile tires on 17 inch alloy rims especially given the shitty suspension of the car.  There's barely any sidewall. They look good but it's a really bad wheel tire combo for winter driving on crappy pot hole filled roads.  I was gonna replace them with 16 inch wheels on Michelins but everyone except me told her she needs an SUV.  The truth of the matter is a Rogue is a better car for her. 

Nearly 20 years driving on crappy upstate NY roads, most of those in vehicles with 17+ inch wheels and 50 series or smaller rubber.  Knock on wood, I've yet to have a pothole claim a tire.

Even with tall sidewalls, hammering into sharp edges potholes can damage a tire.  Instead of immediately popping, it will just break radial belts instead, leading to potential blowouts later.

[MX793]

Keep in mind you're posting on a car forum which puts you in the 99.8th percentile WRT automotive knowledge.

Most of my friends who dont know shit about cars think AWD (no matter how shitty the system) is a substitute for snow tires. This is another reason why CUVs are taking off.

Operating under the assumption that AWD and snow tires are substitutes, why on earth wouldn't I spend the extra money on something that is capable year round without the need for swapping tires out once a year?

Honestly, if that was how it worked, I'd probably go for AWD and all seasons year round too.

I do FWD and all seasons in the winter...