New 2019 BMW 1-Series Hatch: What It Will Look Like And Everything Else We Know

Started by cawimmer430, April 01, 2018, 11:41:19 AM

93JC

Quote from: Xer0 on April 03, 2018, 12:42:07 PM
I haven't driven a CLA/GLA, but I kind of want to just so that I can understand why the cars are so universally panned by  everyone.

They're not 'bad' per se. The CLA is stupid because of the cramped interior. The GLA is a little more spacious, but neither is particularly 'luxurious' or 'premium' otherwise. They're just 'meh', especially for ~$40,000. The problem with them, as I explained above, is that a $40,000 car from a 'mainstream' brand is objectively better at pretty much everything, so you're not paying a premium for the CLA/GLA because the car feels 'premium', you're paying a premium for a badge that the car can't back up.

MexicoCityM3

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2o6

Quote from: 93JC on April 03, 2018, 01:56:07 PM
They're not 'bad' per se. The CLA is stupid because of the cramped interior. The GLA is a little more spacious, but neither is particularly 'luxurious' or 'premium' otherwise. They're just 'meh', especially for ~$40,000. The problem with them, as I explained above, is that a $40,000 car from a 'mainstream' brand is objectively better at pretty much everything, so you're not paying a premium for the CLA/GLA because the car feels 'premium', you're paying a premium for a badge that the car can't back up.

This.

I liked the CLA. Kevin and I fooled around in one in seattle.


But the one I drove was 35k USD.

I had a GLA rental for a full day. It was the same as the CLA but with a worse ride and higher price tag.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on April 03, 2018, 02:10:07 PM
The CLA's differentiation is the way it looks.
It looks like a CLS that *juuuuuuuust* escaped the crusher. Or was dried on high heat when the instructions *CLEARLY* said "AIR DRY ONLY". Or like a Chinese CLS built around the bones of a Chevy Cruze. Sometimes differentiation isn't a good thing.
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MexicoCityM3

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 03, 2018, 03:48:33 PM
It looks like a CLS that *juuuuuuuust* escaped the crusher. Or was dried on high heat when the instructions *CLEARLY* said "AIR DRY ONLY". Or like a Chinese CLS built around the bones of a Chevy Cruze. Sometimes differentiation isn't a good thing.

So you don´t like it. That´s ok.
Founder, BMW Car Club de México
http://bmwclub.org.mx
'05 M3 E46 6SPD Mystic Blue
'08 M5 E60 SMG  Space Grey
'11 1M E82 6SPD Sapphire Black
'16 GT4 (1/3rd Share lol)
'18 M3 CS
'16 X5 5.0i (Wife)
'14 MINI Cooper Countryman S Automatic (For Sale)

93JC

Rented a GLA on my way home tonight: bounced so hard on a dip in the asphalt I hit my head on the damned sunroof. Fuck those cars, seriously, fuck 'em. :rage:


CaminoRacer

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giant_mtb


cawimmer430

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 03, 2018, 11:06:43 AM
Edgy and stylish, I guess. That's up to the individual. Premium, very debatable. Seating position, interior design, material quality... better than something like a Sentra, but premium?

Design is subjective. With the AMG package the CLA looks quite edgy, IMO.

What constitutes premium can also be subjective. I personally differentiate somewhat between premium and luxury. To me premium is above mainstream but below luxury, generally speaking.

Regarding the interior, the the interior of my dad's '89 500SL for example comes across as "poorly built" and "cheap" when compared to the CLA cockpit. The plastics in the 500SL feel and look cheap and so does the wood. The panel gaps are pretty big - and yet at the time it was considered state-of-the-art and a high-quality car; which it is. But it's also a car that was developed in the 1970s through the 1980s. Compare the cockpits side by side and honestly the CLA cabin makes a better impression.

Modern interiors are pretty good, on pretty much all cars. Some are better than others, bit arguing about trivial things seems like a waste of time. The cockpit in my 2007 BMW looks pretty cheap - but it's still well-made and the overall solid feel of the car makes me feel as if I am driving something premium and well-engineered.

For what it is I feel the CLA can be considered a premium car. And in the end all that matters is that the buyers/owners are happy with their purchase - right? Don't like the CLA, don't buy one.  ;)
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giant_mtb

Yeahhh...just about any new car is gonna feel premium compared to a car from 30 years ago...doesn't make it premium. :nutty:

93JC

"Subjectively I feel the CLA is a premium car," said the Mercedes-Benz fanboy.

Payman

To many people, buying a car that's engineered by MB, built by MB, with a MB engine, MB technology, an MB interior, and purchased and serviced at an MB dealership, all adds up to a premium product, no matter if it's their lowest cost model.

Payman

Quote from: 93JC on April 05, 2018, 09:53:40 AM
"Subjectively I feel the CLA is a premium car," said the Mercedes-Benz fanboy.

Said the MB hating Char wannabe.  :devil:

93JC

I'm not blindly hating anything and everything Mercedes-Benz, I'm just telling y'all why a $38,000 Mercedes-Benz compact is stupid. I'm not arguing the following isn't true:

Quote from: Rockraven on April 05, 2018, 01:27:15 PM
To many people, buying a car that's engineered by MB, built by MB, with a MB engine, MB technology, an MB interior, and purchased and serviced at an MB dealership, all adds up to a premium product, no matter if it's their lowest cost model.

There are people that believe this. The point I've been reiterating over and over and over and over again is that that thinking is asinine! If you slapped a Hyundai emblem on a CLA or GLA people would say "This car fucking suuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks it's so overpriced!" The same fucking car!

Tave

I was very underwhelmed by the CLA. It's a pretty car but that plasticky-feeling interior and lurching tranny felt decidedly unMB-like to me.
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

MexicoCityM3

Whatever spinian opinion about the CLA it has been a great success for Merc so lots of people have been willing to pay the premium it costs.



Founder, BMW Car Club de México
http://bmwclub.org.mx
'05 M3 E46 6SPD Mystic Blue
'08 M5 E60 SMG  Space Grey
'11 1M E82 6SPD Sapphire Black
'16 GT4 (1/3rd Share lol)
'18 M3 CS
'16 X5 5.0i (Wife)
'14 MINI Cooper Countryman S Automatic (For Sale)

Payman

Quote from: 93JC on April 05, 2018, 04:39:13 PM
I'm not blindly hating anything and everything Mercedes-Benz, I'm just telling y'all why a $38,000 Mercedes-Benz compact is stupid. I'm not arguing the following isn't true:

There are people that believe this. The point I've been reiterating over and over and over and over again is that that thinking is asinine! If you slapped a Hyundai emblem on a CLA or GLA people would say "This car fucking suuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks it's so overpriced!" The same fucking car!

It's not asinine. Those are all tangible benefits of owning a Mercedes, even the cheapest one. I'll also add resale value, because a 5 yr old MB CLA will hold it's value far better than a similarly priced Buick Regal. If you slapped a Hyundai badge on a CLA, you'd have a well engineered yet pricey sedan, bought and serviced at a Hyundai dealer.

93JC

NO THEY ARE NOT 'TANGIBLE'. Is this one big elaborate April Fools joke? Are we all living in la-la land now? Did IQs suddenly drop around here? "Engineered by MB, built by MB, with a MB engine, MB technology, an MB interior" are all completely and utterly subjective and intangible. Those attributes only have the worth that someone subjectively ascribes to them; it is entirely founded on perception. Entirely.

The only thing you could maybe, possibly argue is "purchased and serviced at a MB dealership". I'll admit they're more likely to give you a loaner (although maybe not to plebes buying CLAs and GLAs), have a cappuccino machine in the lobby and shit like that. Again, this really only has whatever value one subjectively ascribes to it. One could also argue it's more likely a Hyundai won't NEED to go back to the dealership as often (one of the CLAs I rented had substantial electrical gremlins, the likes I had never experienced before), and there's a lot of value in not having the hassle of an unreliable car.

With respect to resale value you are absolutely 100% wrong. Entry-level 'luxury' cars have some of the WORST depreciation in the industry. From a quick google search: "These 11 Cars Embarrassingly Lose Half Their Value in Three Years". I'll save you a click, here's the list:

11. Ford Focus
10. Ford Fusion
9. Volkswagen Jetta
8. Infiniti Q50
7. BMW 3-series

6. Nissan Maxima
5. BMW 5-series
4. Mercedes-Benz C-class
3. Mercedes-Benz E-class
2. Cadillac ATS
1. Cadillac CTS


Resale value of a CLA/GLA will likely be dogshit.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on April 05, 2018, 06:39:52 PM
Whatever spinian opinion about the CLA it has been a great success for Merc so lots of people have been willing to pay the premium it costs.
Something being popular doesn't make it good. Would you accept the argument that a Lexus ES is better than a 5 series? More Americans buy them.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Payman

Quote from: 93JC on April 05, 2018, 08:34:44 PM
NO THEY ARE NOT 'TANGIBLE'. Is this one big elaborate April Fools joke? Are we all living in la-la land now? Did IQs suddenly drop around here? "Engineered by MB, built by MB, with a MB engine, MB technology, an MB interior" are all completely and utterly subjective and intangible. Those attributes only have the worth that someone subjectively ascribes to them; it is entirely founded on perception. Entirely.

The only thing you could maybe, possibly argue is "purchased and serviced at a MB dealership". I'll admit they're more likely to give you a loaner (although maybe not to plebes buying CLAs and GLAs), have a cappuccino machine in the lobby and shit like that. Again, this really only has whatever value one subjectively ascribes to it. One could also argue it's more likely a Hyundai won't NEED to go back to the dealership as often (one of the CLAs I rented had substantial electrical gremlins, the likes I had never experienced before), and there's a lot of value in not having the hassle of an unreliable car.

With respect to resale value you are absolutely 100% wrong. Entry-level 'luxury' cars have some of the WORST depreciation in the industry. From a quick google search: "These 11 Cars Embarrassingly Lose Half Their Value in Three Years". I'll save you a click, here's the list:

11. Ford Focus
10. Ford Fusion
9. Volkswagen Jetta
8. Infiniti Q50
7. BMW 3-series

6. Nissan Maxima
5. BMW 5-series
4. Mercedes-Benz C-class
3. Mercedes-Benz E-class
2. Cadillac ATS
1. Cadillac CTS


Resale value of a CLA/GLA will likely be dogshit.

Cute list, but I can't seem to find the CLA/GLA on it. Anyways, time for a reality check, my excited Cowgary bumpkins...

Used BMW 1-Series and Mercedes CLAs...

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/bmw/1%20series/niagara%20falls/ontario/19_10554412_/?showcpo=ShowCpo&orup=18_15_236&pc=K0K%201L0&sprx=-1

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/bmw/1%20series/boisbriand(north%20of%20montr%c3%a9al)/quebec/5_37430081_2005815182610706/?showcpo=ShowCpo&orup=19_15_236&pc=K0K%201L0&sprx=-1

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/bmw/1%20series/vancouver/british%20columbia/19_10512678_/?showcpo=ShowCpo&orup=25_15_236&pc=K0K%201L0&sprx=-1

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/bmw/1%20series/vaughan/ontario/5_38090288_20090806102017371/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ursrc=hl&orup=30_15_236&pc=K0K%201L0&sprx=-1

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/mercedes-benz/cla-class/oakville/ontario/19_10509661_/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ursrc=pl&urp=6&urm=8&pc=K0K%201L0&sprx=-1

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/mercedes-benz/cla-class/montr%c3%a9al/quebec/5_38078302_ct2004722103748706/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ursrc=pl&urp=5&urm=8&pc=K0K%201L0&sprx=-1

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/mercedes-benz/cla-class/grimsby/ontario/5_37081275_20121205103727722/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ursrc=pl&urp=5&urm=8&pc=K0K%201L0&sprx=-1

And now, its closest domestic competitor... ie, the "premium" $35-40,000 domestic...

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/buick/regal/st-eustache/quebec/5_35561953_ct20046210470456/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ursrc=pl&urp=4&urm=8&pc=K0K%201L0&sprx=-1

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/buick/regal/vancouver/british%20columbia/5_35720400_bs2007618226/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ursrc=pl&urp=5&urm=8&pc=K0K%201L0&sprx=-1

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/buick/regal/st%20catharines/ontario/5_37560776_20080621144633703/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ursrc=pl&urp=5&urm=8&pc=K0K%201L0&sprx=-1

Payman

That list is also pointless because the mid-level luxury cars on that list (3 series, 5 series, E class, C class, CTS) all play in that area of diminished returns... the $50-80,000 MSRP zone new. I say diminished returns because there's not much of a market for 3-5 year old cars priced at $30-50,000. People just won't pay that for a used mainstream albeit "premium" car, no matter what it is. Entry lux cars priced at $40K fare much better, because people WILL pay high 20's to low 30's for used German cars. Equivalent domestic "premium" cars fare much worse though, as can be seen in my examples above. I can post more examples if you want.

12,000 RPM

Well I think a bigger point here is that the entry point of luxury has moved a good bit downmarket. Back in my day the C-Class was the way into MB, and the cost of entry was a good bit higher than something like a top end Accord. And even though the MB was slower and had less equipment, it was better built with nicer materials and a higher overall sense of luxury.

Base CLA250 is way cheaper than an Accord Touring, and is a much worse car. I'd even compare the CLA250 to a Civic Touring. In Europe it's a different ball game and the precedent for a $25K Benz was set decades ago.... but here in the US I think it just cheapens the brand. The market agrees- CLA sales peaked in 2016; GLA in 2015 (though GLA sales haven't fallen as far as the CLA). Sometimes you can go a bridge too far. I think Americans would have been OK with a more decontented C/GLC.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

SJ_GTI

I kind of like the idea of smaller luxury cars, but they do need to do something to differentiate themselves IMHO.

I do think the styling on the CLA is well above average, but based on the posts here it doesn't sound like it has the driving feel of a MB. If they could make a small CLA sized car that drove like a "real" MB that could have some real value (in theory).

The BMW in the oh pee looks like a Golf though. I am not saying that is bad (since I drive a Golf) but I think BMW would have a tough time selling that in the US. The Audi A3 didn't really do well when it was a hatchback but when they switched it to sedan only (in the US) it has done really well. If the BMW 1-series is a stylish sedan for the US market I could see it doing really well even if it is just a glorified Golf/Civic type car.

Payman

Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 06, 2018, 09:04:27 AM
I kind of like the idea of smaller luxury cars, but they do need to do something to differentiate themselves IMHO.

I do think the styling on the CLA is well above average, but based on the posts here it doesn't sound like it has the driving feel of a MB. If they could make a small CLA sized car that drove like a "real" MB that could have some real value (in theory).

The BMW in the oh pee looks like a Golf though. I am not saying that is bad (since I drive a Golf) but I think BMW would have a tough time selling that in the US. The Audi A3 didn't really do well when it was a hatchback but when they switched it to sedan only (in the US) it has done really well. If the BMW 1-series is a stylish sedan for the US market I could see it doing really well even if it is just a glorified Golf/Civic type car.

No, lux hatches don't do well in the US, although they do better up here (relatively) and especially in Europe.

12,000 RPM

Yes I agree SJ_GTI. The X1 is also doing well here as it is in a body style we like.

But the CLA is a sedan and still not doing well. It just needs to be better. Ironically enough the MK7 Golf is pretty Benz like.
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93JC

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 06, 2018, 08:44:59 AM
The market agrees- CLA sales peaked in 2016; GLA in 2015 (though GLA sales haven't fallen as far as the CLA).

And where does this talk about "the CLA has been a great success for Merc" come from? The Buick Verano—a compact 'luxury' car that perhaps was not as 'premium' if only because of the badge—had 50% higher annual sales and it was axed for being a 'failure'!

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93JC

:rage::rage::rage:

God dammit it just pisses me off that that's why a some people defend these stupid fucking cars.

2o6

Quote from: 93JC on April 06, 2018, 03:21:59 PM
And where does this talk about "the CLA has been a great success for Merc" come from? The Buick Verano—a compact 'luxury' car that perhaps was not as 'premium' if only because of the badge—had 50% higher annual sales and it was axed for being a 'failure'!


I'm not sure if the Verano was a "failure". I don't think GM had the manufacturing capacity for it, and with the PSA sale there's no incentive to rebadge a product that is no longer theirs