What Does Jay Leno Think Of An Electric 1968 Porsche 912 With 536 HP?

[cawimmer430]

Here's what I think of it...   


What Does Jay Leno Think Of An Electric 1968 Porsche 912 With 536 HP?

Jay Leno is a huge fan of classic sports cars, and in the most recent episode of Jay Leno's Garage he had the opportunity to check out a 1968 Porsche 912 that has been transformed into an EV by a company named Zelectric.

Porsche first introduced the 912 back in the 1960s as a more affordable alternative to the 911 but Zelectric have removed its standard 90 hp engine and replaced it with the rear drive unit of a Tesla Model S. This motor pumps out 536 hp and is coupled to a 32 kWh battery pack. The car also features a brake regeneration system just like most EVs on the market and also allows for one-pedal driving.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEZItg7-Khg


As you would imagine, the Tesla drive unit and battery pack aren't light and weight around 620 lbs. By comparison, the 912's standard engine, transmission, and exhaust combine to weigh around 375 lbs so this electric-converted car is much heavier than when it left the Porsche factory. However, with nearly 540 hp, that extra weight is not an issue.

The compact 32 kWh battery pack allows the car to travel up to 140 miles (225 km) when the car is driven gingerly or 120 miles (193 km) when it is driven the way that a Porsche should. During this review, Zelectric mentions that it is working on a 45 kWh variant that will offer more range.



Link: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/10/what-does-jay-leno-think-of-an-all-electric-1968-porsche-912-with-536-hp/

[CaminoRacer]

I want a Zelectric Beetle. It would be a fantastic commuter.

[cawimmer430]

I want a Zelectric Beetle. It would be a fantastic commuter.

For a short-range commuter I can see an EV making sense.

But in a sports car? A sports car is supposed to be about emotions and a driving experience. Part of that experience is the character of the internal combustion engine: the sound, the build up of torque etc. I think Porsche is wise to keep the 911 ICE-only and not jump on the EV bandwagon for it. An EV might be super fast but that speed is nothing without the accompanying emotional aspect which in my opinion can only be delivered by an ICE. Fake engine noises a la Taycan or E-Tron GT just don't work for me.

[veeman]

For a short-range commuter I can see an EV making sense.

But in a sports car? A sports car is supposed to be about emotions and a driving experience. Part of that experience is the character of the internal combustion engine: the sound, the build up of torque etc. I think Porsche is wise to keep the 911 ICE-only and not jump on the EV bandwagon for it. An EV might be super fast but that speed is nothing without the accompanying emotional aspect which in my opinion can only be delivered by an ICE. Fake engine noises a la Taycan or E-Tron GT just don't work for me.

Fake engine noises are standard operating procedures for many sporty ICE car models. 

[cawimmer430]

Fake engine noises are standard operating procedures for many sporty ICE car models. 

Yeah, I know. My car even has it.

But here I can sort off "accept / believe" it since my car is an ICE. But on a pure BEV it would feel so wrong.

[Payman]

This would be akin to taking the 912 engine and sticking it in a Nissan Leaf. Neither cars are 912s anymore, so why bother.

[CaminoRacer]

This would be akin to taking the 912 engine and sticking it in a Nissan Leaf. Neither cars are 912s anymore, so why bother.

Well it's a 912 so that's not a bad thing
Not like they took a cool 911 and swapped engines.

[ChrisV]

I had a 912. The engine was decidedly NOT a big part of the driving experience other than it sounded crude AND was slower than a small child on a tricycle. A torquey electric motor would wake that car up nicely. Wimmer, have you driven a modern EV? They are pretty quick (even basic ones) and the throttle response is INSTANT. They are plenty fun to drive. I've said for a while that my Bolt's drivetrain in my MINI Roadster would be an ideal fun car.

The only thing that made my 912 fun was throwing every suspension part in the Weltmeister catalog at it so you simply carried speed in the corners. Because accelerating out of them was a long and laborious process...

[CaminoRacer]

I had a 912. The engine was decidedly NOT a big part of the driving experience other than it sounded crude AND was slower than a small child on a tricycle. A torquey electric motor would wake that car up nicely. Wimmer, have you driven a modern EV? They are pretty quick (even basic ones) and the throttle response is INSTANT. They are plenty fun to drive. I've said for a while that my Bolt's drivetrain in my MINI Roadster would be an ideal fun car.

The only thing that made my 912 fun was throwing every suspension part in the Weltmeister catalog at it so you simply carried speed in the corners. Because accelerating out of them was a long and laborious process...

Similar to our VW Beetle. It's got an upgraded 2000+ cc engine, and is decently quick off the line due to the short gearing, but once it's over 30 mph it's kinda slow and you have to shift a lot to keep it in the powerband (3-5k rpm). It mainly does well in autocross or curvy roads as a momentum car.

I'd throw our Bolt drivetrain into my ND1 if I could fit the battery pack into it without ruining the packaging.

[r0tor]

I would throw in an EV drivetrain in my RX8 if the packing was reasonable

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, have you driven a modern EV? They are pretty quick (even basic ones) and the throttle response is INSTANT. They are plenty fun to drive. I've said for a while that my Bolt's drivetrain in my MINI Roadster would be an ideal fun car.

Yes I have - Hyundai Kona E, Tesla Model 3 Long Range and Tesla Model 3 Performance. Both Teslas were driven on the Autobahn when I was helping one of my clients transfer these cars. Yes, the performance of the Teslas is insane, especially the performance model - BUT - I was strangely bored driving it. The handling is great - great steering response and a very sporty suspension. But I was annoyed with the zoom/whine sound from the batteries and extreme road noises penetrating the cockpit at a slow 120 km/h. The suspension noise and the tire noise were really bad.

Regarding the instant torque, in my current ICE car the engine delivers good low-end grunt and I never find myself asking for more power (aka instant torque) when accelerating on whatever road I am on. The only real issue I have with my current car is the horrendous torque steer when I am accelerating hard from a standstill or even from a low-speed flying start.

[ChrisV]

Teslas =/= all EVs. The Kona is closer to mainstream EVs but I drove one and bought my Bolt as it's way more fun. As for low end grunt, you're not getting it. It's about INSTANT throttle response, no matter what you are doing. No waiting for the engine to rev. Even engines with "low end grunt" are nothing like the responsiveness of a typical modern EV.

Trust me, you'd find the 912 boring to drive if you had to live with it for more than 5 minutes, which is why I sold it and moved on to 911s. The old 356 engine in the 912 didn't like moving a car that was heavier than the 356, and it was rough, sounded crap, hated to rev, and yet had no torque. And that was when it was running PERFECTLY.

[veeman]

Personally I find the instant torque of my brother in law's Model S nauseating and unsafe.  It feels like I'm going down a steep rollercoaster hill.  I guess I'm just old and prefer a slower car for more control. 

[RomanChariot]

I have known a couple of drivers who treat the gas pedal like a light switch, it is either on or off. They push the pedal hard until they get to the speed they want and then let off completely. Rinse and repeat. Riding with them is always uncomfortable. I can only imagine it would be worse with instant throttle response. On the other hand, I could definitely appreciate instant throttle response as a driver.

[Soup DeVille]

I would throw in an EV drivetrain in my RX8 if the packing was reasonable

I think the options there are going to be a lot greater in 2-3 years.

[cawimmer430]

Teslas =/= all EVs. The Kona is closer to mainstream EVs but I drove one and bought my Bolt as it's way more fun. As for low end grunt, you're not getting it. It's about INSTANT throttle response, no matter what you are doing. No waiting for the engine to rev. Even engines with "low end grunt" are nothing like the responsiveness of a typical modern EV.

This is a dumb question, but where and when exactly do I need instant throttle response? This might be useful on a racetrack, but in my daily driving I have never had an issue with "delayed throttle / no instant torque" issues. In all my daily driving situations with my past and current car, this is not an issue at all.

I know what you mean with the instant torque and throttle response in an EV, I get it. I've experienced this myself. But on my current ICE car I don't feel a "delay" in engine response when giving it gas.

Trust me, you'd find the 912 boring to drive if you had to live with it for more than 5 minutes, which is why I sold it and moved on to 911s. The old 356 engine in the 912 didn't like moving a car that was heavier than the 356, and it was rough, sounded crap, hated to rev, and yet had no torque. And that was when it was running PERFECTLY.

Actually, when it comes to a classic car or a sports car, I feel that an ICE actually gives the car a huge deal of its character. Aside from the sound/noise, the way it builds up torque or its throttle response are unique enough to give a classic/sports car a particular feel.

In a world where all sports cars are EVs (or classics have been converted to EVs), this would be rather boring: instant throttle and torque, no emotional engine noise etc. It would all feel so... "similar".

I'm not knocking EVs in this regard. I can see situations where they make perfect sense like for pure city driving. If someone gave me a small EV like a Renault Zoe, I'd totally use it for my city errands. But in a sports car it's not all about speed; emotions also play a part and to me the ICE has a clear advantage over the BEV here.

[Soup DeVille]

Personally I find the instant torque of my brother in law's Model S nauseating and unsafe.  It feels like I'm going down a steep rollercoaster hill.  I guess I'm just old and prefer a slower car for more control. 

Part of me thinks that Tesla maps the accelerator response in order to accentuate the "electricalness" of their drivetrain; which is fine, really.
But a slower responding mapping could make the drive smoother and more comfortable.

[Laconian]

The Mazda MX30 has a more progressive throttle. Or there just isn't much power to begin with.

[ChrisV]

This is a dumb question, but where and when exactly do I need instant throttle response? This might be useful on a racetrack, but in my daily driving I have never had an issue with "delayed throttle / no instant torque" issues. In all my daily driving situations with my past and current car, this is not an issue at all.

I use it all the time. Passing on two lane roads where you have to make it quick and get back in your lane, squirting through traffic on the interstates, especially when yo have to avoid the driver on their phone that suddenly has to be in your lane where you already are without even looking at you, merging onto an interstate where that difference in throttle response means making it safely out from behind a slow merger AND not getting squashed by a SUV or Semi in the right hand lane barreling down on both of you, AND just for fun on twisty backroads.

I know what you mean with the instant torque and throttle response in an EV, I get it. I've experienced this myself. But on my current ICE car I don't feel a "delay" in engine response when giving it gas.

I do when I get out of my JCW and get into my Bolt. The Bolt just feels quicker, even with no engine noise.

Do I like the pops and burbles of the JCW? Sure. Same with the manual trans. But it's really not necessary to enjoy top down motoring on a fun windy road. But MOST cars are not making those noises. Even your car could be replaced by an EV sedan and the world would not notice. 4 cyl cars tend to not be sonorous. Do Accord and Camry engine notes stir the soul? Not a chance. Like the 912: it's not got character, it has rough sounds and crude feelings that would get tiring in short order. The 911 was worlds better due to be more powerful AND smoother AND sounding much better. Listen to your average car going by (even your favorite Mercedes); they tend to be quiet because the fact it that NVH levels have been heavily engineered to make cars smoother and quieter. EVs excel at that. Not just for city cars, but for tourers and every sort of daily driver.

MINI is supposed to be coming out with a convertible version of the SE and I am seriously considering looking into it, if the pricing is right.

[Laconian]

High end cars are engineered for minimal engine noise in the interior too. Big V12 sedans are renowned for their smoothness and huge shove. EVs democratize those virtues since they can do all that for a fraction of the price.

[cawimmer430]

I use it all the time. Passing on two lane roads where you have to make it quick and get back in your lane, squirting through traffic on the interstates, especially when yo have to avoid the driver on their phone that suddenly has to be in your lane where you already are without even looking at you, merging onto an interstate where that difference in throttle response means making it safely out from behind a slow merger AND not getting squashed by a SUV or Semi in the right hand lane barreling down on both of you, AND just for fun on twisty backroads.

In my daily driving I'm never really in such situations which you described. My car has enough power (224-hp / 350 Nm of torque / 0-62 mph in 6.2 seconds) so that I can quickly overtake even on state/country roads should the situation allow it (a straight road where you can see if there is oncoming traffic). I guess the driving conditions are vastly different in the USA and Germany.

Do I like the pops and burbles of the JCW? Sure. Same with the manual trans. But it's really not necessary to enjoy top down motoring on a fun windy road. But MOST cars are not making those noises. Even your car could be replaced by an EV sedan and the world would not notice. 4 cyl cars tend to not be sonorous. Do Accord and Camry engine notes stir the soul? Not a chance. Like the 912: it's not got character, it has rough sounds and crude feelings that would get tiring in short order. The 911 was worlds better due to be more powerful AND smoother AND sounding much better. Listen to your average car going by (even your favorite Mercedes); they tend to be quiet because the fact it that NVH levels have been heavily engineered to make cars smoother and quieter. EVs excel at that. Not just for city cars, but for tourers and every sort of daily driver.

An Accord and Camry motor are definitely not designed to stir the soul. Neither is the motor in my car. In fact most of the time I don't hear it (it's rather smooth and has good NVH). When I give it gas and drive sporty, it does have a nice engine note to it. It's nothing remarkable but it sounds good enough, sporty enough. Enough to make me smile.

Again, I am not knocking EVs. I just feel that in a sports car an BEV setup kind of kills a huge aspect of the driving experience which an ICE can so easily provide. Even an old (and rather slow) sports car like an MG B or a Fiat 124 or Triumph Spitfire had pretty basic 4-cylinder (MG B also had inline-6s) engines which sounded rough and like "nothing special", but they still made noises which added something of value to that driving experience.

[CaminoRacer]

High end cars are engineered for minimal engine noise in the interior too. Big V12 sedans are renowned for their smoothness and huge shove. EVs democratize those virtues since they can do all that for a fraction of the price.

The luxury barges from the 50's-70's are ripe for EV conversion. Massive torque and no low-class noises.

[veeman]

Part of me thinks that Tesla maps the accelerator response in order to accentuate the "electricalness" of their drivetrain; which is fine, really.
But a slower responding mapping could make the drive smoother and more comfortable.

I guess, maybe...  It's just too fast.  What I've noticed is this... The Tesla owner backs out of his driveway with me in the passenger seat and straightens his car on the residential suburban house lined street.  There's good sight lines and about an 1/8 of a mile straight road before the road curves or you come to a T section with a stop sign.  The driver punches the throttle and the car takes off.  I hold onto the grab handle and my stomach feels like it's in my chest.  Then I say, "Yeah, I get it, it's fast.  This is not fun for me."  Hilarity ensues. 

It's just not my thing.  Probably because I'm the passenger and don't have any control.  The immediate torque I've never felt before in a car.  I've never been in a supercar though.  In the 80's one of my Dad's friends had a Porsche 911 and I remember him likewise racing down his suburban street with me in the backseat. That was a long time ago though so I don't remember what I felt.   

[cawimmer430]

The driver punches the throttle and the car takes off.  I hold onto the grab handle and my stomach feels like it's in my chest.  Then I say, "Yeah, I get it, it's fast.  This is not fun for me."  Hilarity ensues. 

That was my experience in the Tesla Model 3 Performance when I helped my client drive it to his warehouse. The instant acceleration and torque are just brutal and while it was definitely exciting, it was not fun on my stomach or my back. It was just too brutal.