The display of police bashing (guess no one saw the stickied posts) in the California tuner ticket thread rose to a level rarely seen here. It is unacceptable, and the behavior of a few led to an even greater number of people joining in and piling on.
If such a response to a thread emerges again, this forum will be permanently deleted by the mods.
- Dan
This forum...is crying.
This forum has seen a lot of loves
But it's never gonna see another one like I had with you.
Quote from: the Teuton on April 07, 2008, 11:13:20 PM
This forum...is crying.
This forum has seen a lot of loves
But it's never gonna see another one like I had with you.
:lol:
Taking away the playground doesn't stop the bullies.
And finally, a Driving and the Law thread that got out of hand and it wasn't my fault! I'm thrilled.
Just close it then, seriously. If you can't criticize police actions in this forum then forget it. I could go on further, but nevermind. How absurd and biased towards one group.
Quote from: Middle_Path on April 08, 2008, 12:50:48 AM
Just close it then, seriously. If you can't criticize police actions in this forum then forget it. I could go on further, but nevermind. How absurd and biased towards one group.
1.) We need police to enforce laws.
2.) Police don't come up with the laws, politicians do. Blame them.
3.) All LEOs are different. Some are pricks, some are just regular guys. Why trash the whole group based on the actions of a few?
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on April 08, 2008, 12:54:36 AM
1.) We need police to enforce laws.
2.) Police don't come up with the laws, politicians do. Blame them.
3.) All LEOs are different. Some are pricks, some are just regular guys. Why trash the whole group based on the actions of a few?
I agree with all of the above, but if you can't bash the actions of a few then...???
Like I said before, nevermind.
The unacceptable bashing seemed to come from a relative few in that thread - that's where I'd start. (Maybe already done...)
There were immature posts from both sides, along with some that were good. Most of the police bashing that I saw seemed provoked, at least towards the end of the thread. At any rate, my point, without dragging the whole thing back up, is that it's a bit one-sided to just blame the people who were bashing the police for what that thread turned into, and it's unfair to just let the LEOs who made immature posts go just because they are LEOs, which is what sometimes seems to happen.
At any rate, that thing did get pretty retarded.
Quote from: Psilos on April 08, 2008, 03:09:13 AM
There were immature posts from both sides, along with some that were good. Most of the police bashing that I saw seemed provoked, at least towards the end of the thread. At any rate, my point, without dragging the whole thing back up, is that it's a bit one-sided to just blame the people who were bashing the police for what that thread turned into, and it's unfair to just let the LEOs who made immature posts go just because they are LEOs, which is what sometimes seems to happen.
At any rate, that thing did get pretty retarded.
I can blame people on both sides on this one but when criticism leads to insults that's a problem. When people are insulted they feel the need to respond and the cycle starts. So, at least in my opinion, the blame lies with the posters that entered the discussion with the juvenile bashing, not the response, that's another story.
Personally, I think there's some serious maturity issues going on with some members here. Not sure what to do about it yet, but something will be done.
Quote from: Middle_Path on April 08, 2008, 12:50:48 AM
Just close it then, seriously. If you can't criticize police actions in this forum then forget it. I could go on further, but nevermind. How absurd and biased towards one group.
Topics like the one in question can be discussed rationally without resorting to hurling insults and bashing the police, ricers or any other group. I've no problem with criticizm, mindless insults on the other hand only serve to derail what could be a fruitful discussion.
The problem as I see it are posts like "FUCK POLICE FUCK POLICE FUCK" that typically add no value and simply serve to stir the pot.
Leave the forum up and running and just start immediately banning those who post garbage like the above example.
Quote from: Byteme on April 08, 2008, 06:51:40 AM
Topics like the one in question can be discussed rationally without resorting to hurling insults and bashing the police, ricers or any other group. I've no problem with criticizm, mindless insults on the other hand only serve to derail what could be a fruitful discussion.
The problem as I see it are posts like "FUCK POLICE FUCK POLICE FUCK" that typically add no value and simply serve to stir the pot.
Leave the forum up and running and just start immediately banning those who post garbage like the above example.
Thank you. You said it better than I.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on April 08, 2008, 12:54:36 AM
1.) We need police to enforce laws.
2.) Police don't come up with the laws, politicians do. Blame them.
3.) All LEOs are different. Some are pricks, some are just regular guys. Why trash the whole group based on the actions of a few?
Police officer organizations do however lobby for various laws, and have a good deal of influence on the politicians who pass them. Department heads are often consulted when passing new laws as well.
I agree wthat's it's unfair to bash all cops based on he actions of a few, but to hold police entirely blameless in laws that they may have had significant influence in passing isn't the whole truth either.
And yes, it got out of hand.
I just read the thread in question and I'm in absolute shock. A few of you should be absolutely ashamed of yourselves. I couldn't believe who some of the posters were either. I typically stay out of the Law and Order forum because arguments in here do get pretty childish, but never like that.
Quote from: HEMI666 on April 08, 2008, 03:09:24 PM
I typically stay out of the Law and Order forum because arguments in here do get pretty childish.
bada-bing!
So pray tell Dan, where can one go to legitimately criticize police actions, and not have it called "bashing"? There were maybe one or two "offensive" posts before one of our resident LEO's who will remain nameless did the ole internet "appeal to authority" trick.
No one was "personally" criticized right up until that moment. You need to affix blame where it belongs this time.
Quote from: Raza on April 08, 2008, 12:32:36 AM
Taking away the playground doesn't stop the bullies.
Banning does, however. :praise:
Quote from: Byteme on April 08, 2008, 06:51:40 AM
Topics like the one in question can be discussed rationally without resorting to hurling insults and bashing the police, ricers or any other group. I've no problem with criticizm, mindless insults on the other hand only serve to derail what could be a fruitful discussion.
The problem as I see it are posts like "FUCK POLICE FUCK POLICE FUCK" that typically add no value and simply serve to stir the pot.
Leave the forum up and running and just start immediately banning those who post garbage like the above example.
Correct. The poster who made that post has been temporarily banned to get the message across.
Quote from: dsred on April 08, 2008, 03:40:56 PM
So pray tell Dan, where can one go to legitimately criticize police actions, and not have it called "bashing"?
Err... jail? A rap studio? The Democratic National Convention? :devil:
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 08, 2008, 09:15:49 AM
Police officer organizations do however lobby for various laws, and have a good deal of influence on the politicians who pass them. Department heads are often consulted when passing new laws as well.
Department heads are consulted on police budgets - that's where they have the most influence. As far as new laws, most police chiefs are asked by members of the state or local governing bodies how and if they can enforce a pending law, not whether they like it or not. Politicians are arrogant - they don't care what police officers (or citizens) think, in general.
Quote from: dsred on April 08, 2008, 03:40:56 PM
No one was "personally" criticized right up until that moment. You need to affix blame where it belongs this time.
Quote from: TurboDan on May 05, 2005, 12:28:34 AM
If there's one thing we've learned at the C&D forums, it's that the LEOs who are nice enough to come on the boards and help us out leave pretty quickly with the frequent police bashing that goes on.
At this site, we want any LEO that stumbles onto the forum to feel welcome and stick around! The vast majority of forum members respect and welcome the police officers who are kind enough to answer questions and join in on the discussions. And it does all of us some good to see things from their point of view as well!
So, while everyone is welcome to air their gripe about that nasty ticket they got or rant about "the system," remember that the police officers are out there doing a tough job. Any topics containing inappropriate bashing of law enforcement will be deleted.
We don't want to support "general" police bashing, either. It doesn't matter if it's personal or not.
Did Nick catch a ban?
Anyone else?
Quote from: Tave on April 08, 2008, 07:18:17 PM
Anyone else?
I dunno, maybe Rohan, but I'm not sure.
Quote from: thecarnut on April 08, 2008, 07:25:33 PM
I dunno, maybe Rohan, but I'm not sure.
With what he sent drinkwater, I think he deserved it more than Nick.
Randy banned himself.
Quote from: Catman on April 08, 2008, 07:44:43 PM
Randy banned himself.
How long? And why would he do that? :confused:
Quote from: thecarnut on April 08, 2008, 07:45:35 PM
How long? And why would he do that? :confused:
When car forums cease to be fun one has to take a look at some options. Cops take a lot of crap on and off work so hearing it on a forum that's supposed to be a relaxing activity can push you over the edge. If he never comes back I don't blame him. He was wrong for sending that PM but it I can understand it. Unfortunately being an LEO brings added and sometimes unwanted attention. It comes with the job but that shouldn't mean you don't get frustrated with people. LEOs on this forum are identified by their jobs quite often and it's very easy for any of us to take offense to comments like "Fuck the Police" and other blanketed, rude and childish statements. We're regular guys but we're also police officers and right or wrong we are looked at differently than most people. It's a job and it would be nice if we were treated like everyone else but we're not. It's a lot different than other professions and the isolation from general society makes us defensive. Just the way it is. :huh:
Randy took some responsibility for what he did. That's more than can be said for some people.
Greg is right that we ought to treat LEOs like everybody else when they're not on duty. They're regular people who need a place to relax from the stresses of everyday like just as much as anybody else.
I often find it hard to look at the posters who are LEOs as anything but that, especially when that mere fact seems to be brought up by them a lot. That doesn't happen with all of the LEO members, but when it does, it's detrimental to the whole "cops are people, too" thing, even though that's pretty obvious (that LEOs are regular people). The world in general, and the popular media especially, really tend to show LEOs as one-dimensional. The attitude of some LEOs is also really frat-boy like, which, aside from being annoying, sets them apart from the non-LEOs of the forum and world.
At least your honest in your opinions Psilos. Though I imagine you'd be outraged by the same comments, with some racial, ethnic or gender group substituted for LEO.
Viewing LEOs as one-dimensional only reinforces the frat boy mentality you compain about. It's a cycle to which you help contribute.
Quote from: Middle_Path on April 08, 2008, 12:50:48 AM
Just close it then, seriously. If you can't criticize police actions in this forum then forget it. I could go on further, but nevermind. How absurd and biased towards one group.
Just because a few people have absolutely no sense of restraint, or respect, doesn't mean the fun should be ruined for all of us.
[Was a bit hostile at first, edited to tone down]
If the "fun" means insulting a group of forum members, it's not "fun" for all. As Greg said, when the Driving and the Law forum becomes less of an informational place to ask questions and respectfully debate traffic laws and more of a place to bash those who enforce the laws (it's not as if they CREATED them in the first place anyway), then its purpose has been undermined and it should no longer exist.
If nothing else, if one section of the forum disrupts the forum and some of its members, it's not worth having.
Quote from: CALL_911 on April 08, 2008, 07:26:44 PM
With what he sent drinkwater, I think he deserved it more than Nick.
You don't have any room to be lobbying for others to be punished. You're always in the middle of childish name-calling and juvenile bullshit around here. Don't think the mods have not had their finger on the ban button next to your user name on several occasions. In my opinion, we've been too nice at times.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 08, 2008, 10:03:26 PM
If the "fun" means insulting a group of forum members, it's not "fun" for all. As Greg said, when the Driving and the Law forum becomes less of an informational place to ask questions and respectfully debate traffic laws and more of a place to bash those who enforce the laws (it's not as if they CREATED them in the first place anyway), then its purpose has been undermined and it should no longer exist.
If nothing else, if one section of the forum disrupts the forum and some of its members, it's not worth having.
I think what R-inge meant by "fun" is that he wanted the forum to stay open so he could talk to LEO's, not bash them.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 08, 2008, 10:03:26 PM
If the "fun" means insulting a group of forum members, it's not "fun" for all. As Greg said, when the Driving and the Law forum becomes less of an informational place to ask questions and respectfully debate traffic laws and more of a place to bash those who enforce the laws (it's not as if they CREATED them in the first place anyway), then its purpose has been undermined and it should no longer exist.
If nothing else, if one section of the forum disrupts the forum and some of its members, it's not worth having.
I think you misunderstood me Dan. By "fun" I mean simply the ability to discuss issues pertaining to Driving and the Law. I am enraged by the way certain posters treat LEOs on this board (though it isn't in the least surprising). All I am saying is that I wish people had some restraint so that we all didn't get our toys taken away. Unfortunately though if we are going to act like preschoolers then perhaps we should be treated as such.
I'm very disappointed by that thread. It sounds like a few people had a logical, reasonable debate (soup, bing-oh, cougs, byteme, james young, maybe some others) while the rest just sniped at police and generally threw flame-bait around. I stepped away from these boards for a period of time to make sure I had a good perspective, and I come back to a series of bannings and this crap. Too bad the mods have to deal with a bunch of children in order to keep this ship sailing...
Quote from: TurboDan on April 08, 2008, 10:05:01 PM
You don't have any room to be lobbying for others to be punished. You're always in the middle of childish name-calling and juvenile bullshit around here. Don't think the mods have not had their finger on the ban button next to your user name on several occasions. In my opinion, we've been too nice at times.
I think this is an appropiate "pwned" image:
(http://www.maj.com/gallery/ShipOfFools/FunnyStuff/pwnzored.jpg)
Quote from: Lazerous on April 08, 2008, 10:24:54 PM
I think this is an appropiate "pwned" image:
(http://www.maj.com/gallery/ShipOfFools/FunnyStuff/pwnzored.jpg)
:wtf:
:clap:
Please please please don't hijack this thread, dammit.
Quote from: Catman on April 08, 2008, 05:52:37 AM
I can blame people on both sides on this one but when criticism leads to insults that's a problem. When people are insulted they feel the need to respond and the cycle starts. So, at least in my opinion, the blame lies with the posters that entered the discussion with the juvenile bashing, not the response, that's another story.
Personally, I think there's some serious maturity issues going on with some members here. Not sure what to do about it yet, but something will be done.
Hey, even the mature insult people.
Quote from: R-inge on April 08, 2008, 10:26:37 PM
Please please please don't hijack this thread, dammit.
I normally don't but that post really deserved an accompanying "pwned" picture. Now back to the original topic.
This might be one of my more favorite forums on this board and I have learned a good amount from the LEO's that contribute here and other members. I also tend to contribute quite a few posts to this forum and would hate to see it deleted. That being said, I agree with R-inge and Raza in that deleting this forum won't really alleviate the situation and the more appropriate action would be a ban of some sorts.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 08, 2008, 04:06:47 PM
Banning does, however. :praise:
Well, beat the bullies senseless and the playground's free for everyone.
That's how I did it as a kid, anyway.
Quote from: Lazerous on April 08, 2008, 10:33:21 PM
I normally don't but that post really deserved an accompanying "pwned" picture. Now back to the original topic.
This might be one of my more favorite forums on this board and I have learned a good amount from the LEO's that contribute here and other members. I also tend to contribute quite a few posts to this forum and would hate to see it deleted. That being said, I agree with R-inge and Raza in that deleting this forum won't really alleviate the situation and the more appropriate action would be a ban of some sorts.
If we collectively can't pull our heads out of our collective rectum, then I can't blame Dan for shutting it down altogether. But really we all could use a dose of Maturity, and hopefully some people disappearing at least for a while will help.
Oh well, I guess I'll bury myself in PotBS again for a couple of weeks and check back...hopefully the drama will be over by then.
Quote from: R-inge on April 08, 2008, 10:38:57 PM
Oh well, I guess I'll bury myself in PotBS again for a couple of weeks and check back...hopefully the drama will be over by then.
You're overreacting a bit. There is currently no "drama." Maybe you should just not check this particular forum for a little while. The rest of the board seems fine to me. :huh:
What's PotBS anyway?
Quote from: R-inge on April 08, 2008, 10:36:30 PM
If we collectively can't pull our heads out of our collective rectum, then I can't blame Dan for shutting it down altogether. But really we all could use a dose of Maturity, and hopefully some people disappearing at least for a while will help.
Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down.
That's how I feel anyway. I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well. That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance.
There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police. There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too. Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police. If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.
Quote from: Raza on April 08, 2008, 10:41:44 PM
Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down.
That's how I feel anyway. I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well. That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance.
There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police. There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too. Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police. If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.
I don't want to start any arguments but I think the LEO's are being too touchy here. Yes, the bashing was very gratuitous and I don't do it, but I agree with Raza, it just seems that we can't say anything bad about cops because we'll just get flamed and shut down. :huh:
Then again I don't know what LEO's go through, but it seems like we really have to watch ourselves in this forum.
I agree with Raza. If the mods limit the freedom of speech, then what's the point of posting? I don't like a lot of the cops back home because they had nothing to do but try to find an excuse to pick up a speeder, but besides almost giving me an underage here at college, I value what they do in general.
LEOs must not be immune from criticism.
We recruit, train and equip them at public expense to perform a public purpose. We burden them with extraordinary responsibility and provide extraordinary authority with which to execute that responsibility. Because of this exalted authority, LEOs should and must be held to a higher standard of behavior than civilians and, no, it doesn?t go away when you put away the badge. It goes with the territory.
Law enforcement has isolated itself and militarized itself to a point that so demeans the Jeffersonian ideal of a constable as to make it unrecognizable. Law enforcement has largely brought the criticism on itself.
I don?t enjoy ?bashing? police but I?ll be damned if I won?t speak up to point out bad behavior and to provide a better way. The original incident that triggered so much puerile animosity in the forum has also generated a lot of criticism of law enforcement, especially among the very conservative elderly element (even older than me!) right here in Riverside County who saw a wasted federal earmark, heavy-handed police behavior and most especially the seizure/theft of private property. We cannot let that kind of abuse continue without protest.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 08, 2008, 10:05:01 PM
You don't have any room to be lobbying for others to be punished. You're always in the middle of childish name-calling and juvenile bullshit around here. Don't think the mods have not had their finger on the ban button next to your user name on several occasions. In my opinion, we've been too nice at times.
Oh, I know all too well that you wanted to ban me.
Quote from: dazzleman on April 08, 2008, 09:23:05 PM
At least your honest in your opinions Psilos. Though I imagine you'd be outraged by the same comments, with some racial, ethnic or gender group substituted for LEO.
Viewing LEOs as one-dimensional only reinforces the frat boy mentality you compain about. It's a cycle to which you help contribute.
I might argue that LEOs have done things to deserve or provoke those comments, at least in a vague large-scale way, while some ethnic group (or whomever) hasn't. Calling an LEO an idiot is like calling a plumber an idiot: might be true, probably isn't, but it's not the same as using a slur against a Jew. Additionally, and this applies fairly specifically, it's not too hard to pick out a post that promotes the frat boy mentality without offering any more dimension. Or are you saying that LEOs are fratty because the public views them as one-dimensional?
Quote from: TurboDan on April 08, 2008, 10:03:26 PM
If the "fun" means insulting a group of forum members, it's not "fun" for all. As Greg said, when the Driving and the Law forum becomes less of an informational place to ask questions and respectfully debate traffic laws and more of a place to bash those who enforce the laws (it's not as if they CREATED them in the first place anyway), then its purpose has been undermined and it should no longer exist.
If nothing else, if one section of the forum disrupts the forum and some of its members, it's not worth having.
The police might not create laws, but they seem to show up on the "the law is perfect" side of the debate more often than not. That, and their discretion as to when to enforce certain laws, leads people to think that they might as well have created the laws themselves.
Quote from: Raza on April 08, 2008, 10:41:44 PM
Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down.
That's how I feel anyway. I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well. That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance.
There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police. There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too. Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police. If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.
I don't think this is an issue of limiting freedom to criticize the government. Criticism of the government is a vital freedom within any democracy. Personally, I've tried to take criticims of LE around here as constructively and maturely as possible...I've long said that I don't care if someone disagrees with me, as long as the debate is mature. I did my best in the offending thread to live by that...though I'll freely admit that a few of my comments were less than I expect of myself (I apologive if my human nature occasionally overrides the standards I try ot set for myself as a professional LEO).
That being said, the thread in question went way past criticism. There were attacks that I took very personally, thick skin and all. Despite every individual's freedom to criticize the government, I wholeheartedly agree that the mods have the right to ask that that criticism be mature in nature on a private message board like this one. We LEO's don't ask for anything more than the common courtesy that every poster deserves around here. No matter our profession and what standard we're held to, we're still human beings and deserve the same respect that every human deserves.
Quote from: bing_oh on April 08, 2008, 11:51:08 PM
I don't think this is an issue of limiting freedom to criticize the government. Criticism of the government is a vital freedom within any democracy. Personally, I've tried to take criticims of LE around here as constructively and maturely as possible...I've long said that I don't care if someone disagrees with me, as long as the debate is mature. I did my best in the offending thread to live by that...though I'll freely admit that a few of my comments were less than I expect of myself (I apologive if my human nature occasionally overrides the standards I try ot set for myself as a professional LEO).
That being said, the thread in question went way past criticism. There were attacks that I took very personally, thick skin and all. Despite every individual's freedom to criticize the government, I wholeheartedly agree that the mods have the right to ask that that criticism be mature in nature on a private message board like this one. We LEO's don't ask for anything more than the common courtesy that every poster deserves around here. No matter our profession and what standard we're held to, we're still human beings and deserve the same respect that every human deserves.
I never defended the thread in question.
I'm just saying if you want to play hockey and not get hit, don't lace up your skates.
Quote from: Psilos on April 08, 2008, 11:50:41 PM
The police might not create laws, but they seem to show up on the "the law is perfect" side of the debate more often than not. That, and their discretion as to when to enforce certain laws, leads people to think that they might as well have created the laws themselves.
Never think that LEO's believe that the law is perfect. I can tell you that LEO's are some of the biggest critics of the law and the government as a whole that you'll ever find. The difference between us and your average citizen is, we rarely voice those opinions in a public forum. We tend to bitch amongst ourselves, believing that public criticism by a group like LE is detrimental to society and that the public won't listen to us anyways.
We work within an imperfect system and we know it. But, we're a pretty patriotic bunch and we know that, despite the flaws, we've got a damn good thing compaired to alot of other government around the world. We also hold the belief...even us older, more cynical cops (though we will rarely admit it)...that we can still change things for the better. Mix that with a big dose of blunt realism and you have the average cop attitude.
Quote from: bing_oh on April 08, 2008, 11:59:42 PM
Never think that LEO's believe that the law is perfect. I can tell you that LEO's are some of the biggest critics of the law and the government as a whole that you'll ever find. The difference between us and your average citizen is, we rarely voice those opinions in a public forum. We tend to bitch amongst ourselves, believing that public criticism by a group like LE is detrimental to society and that the public won't listen to us anyways.
We work within an imperfect system and we know it. But, we're a pretty patriotic bunch and we know that, despite the flaws, we've got a damn good thing compaired to alot of other government around the world. We also hold the belief...even us older, more cynical cops (though we will rarely admit it)...that we can still change things for the better. Mix that with a big dose of blunt realism and you have the average cop attitude.
A critic in private isn't a critic at all.
Quote from: Raza on April 08, 2008, 10:41:44 PM
Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down.
That's how I feel anyway. I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well. That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance.
There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police. There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too. Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police. If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.
+1 billion
There's a difference between criticizing specific actions certain LEOs take and generalized cop-bashing. I think Dan has objected to the latter but not the former.
I support the moderators and administration taking a hard line to ensure that ALL our members feel welcome here. Too many people who whine incessantly about their own right have zero regard for those of other people.
I'd rather see a crackdown here than see the who Driving and the Law forum deleted. But Dan and the moderators are right that we can't allow some members to make others feel unwelcome. And if we take the 'anythng goes' approach that some members seem to favor (which BTW they'd never favor if they were the ones being attacked), the forum will just turn into a cesspool like many internet forums.
Another thing I'd caution people about is forming definite opinions on anything from one newspaper article. The quality of journalism is abysmal and it is often severely slanted even to the point of misstating facts. Have any opinion you want but don't allow yourself to be used as a pawn.
Quote from: Raza on April 08, 2008, 10:41:44 PM
Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down.
That's how I feel anyway. I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well. That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance.
There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police. There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too. Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police. If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.
That wasn't my point; criticism and bashing are two different things. Criticism is something I myself have done (see my thread "Powertrip much?"). But mainly a couple of people need to cool it when it comes to using offensive speech or flamebait. I've already qouted one of them in this thread, the other was banned, and one of them seems to have been caught in the crossfire.
Quote from: Lazerous on April 08, 2008, 10:41:29 PM
You're overreacting a bit. There is currently no "drama." Maybe you should just not check this particular forum for a little while. The rest of the board seems fine to me. :huh:
What's PotBS anyway?
Pirates of the Burning Sea, an mmorpg that I got into recently. Very addicting.
And maybe I am overreacting but that thread about the kid whose parents let her die of diabetic shock rather than give her treatment was discouraging for what I percieved as a lack of civility and a general bashing of anyone with religious beliefs, and this recent thread, convince me that there are too many people who don't know how to express themselves over the internet without taking it to 11 all the time. And yeah I know I've been guilty of that myself in the past.
Like I said, a few people need to disappear, and it seems like some have already been dealt with, so I will give this place more time and energy in a bit of time and see if I think it's worth it. FWIW this place is losing me. Some may not care...I don't blame them.
Meh, that last couple of lines were silly things to say, but the rest of it I meant.
Quote from: thecarnut on April 08, 2008, 10:44:32 PM
I don't want to start any arguments but I think the LEO's are being too touchy here. Yes, the bashing was very gratuitous and I don't do it, but I agree with Raza, it just seems that we can't say anything bad about cops because we'll just get flamed and shut down. :huh:
Then again I don't know what LEO's go through, but it seems like we really have to watch ourselves in this forum.
I haven't read beyond this post so this may be old stuff by now. If so, sorry.
I think you guys are missing the point. LEOs, correct me if I am wrong.
No one is saying you can't discuss, criticize or complain about a cop or what they do or how they do it.. What is being objected to is the childish and chickensh*t way in which some of the posters did it (see my earlier post on this topic).
If I didn't know better I would swear some of those posts were written by 7th graders. That could have been an interesting topic but is got sidetracked by inmature posts and immediately went off topic.
Ever wonder why membership at Carspin stabilized at about 500 with perhaps 30-40 regular posters. It could be in part becausee any casual visitor would see that all to frequently topics typically devolve to name calling, off topic discussions, meaningless inmature posts after a couple of pages.
Quote from: R-inge on April 09, 2008, 06:41:05 AM
Pirates of the Burning Sea, an mmorpg that I got into recently. Very addicting.
And maybe I am overreacting but that thread about the kid whose parents let her die of diabetic shock rather than give her treatment was discouraging for what I percieved as a lack of civility and a general bashing of anyone with religious beliefs, and this recent thread, convince me that there are too many people who don't know how to express themselves over the internet without taking it to 11 all the time. And yeah I know I've been guilty of that myself in the past.
Like I said, a few people need to disappear, and it seems like some have already been dealt with, so I will give this place more time and energy in a bit of time and see if I think it's worth it. FWIW this place is losing me. Some may not care...I don't blame them.
Aah yes, the religious threads. They always end up going the same exact route which is why I do my best to stay out of them lately. So I can't argue with you against that one.
Lately this board does seem to have been on the edge a little bit and I'm not entirely sure why, but I don't think simply leaving a place that you yourself have contributed in its growth is the solution. The administrators and moderators are the ones responsible for keeping this place in check and they seem to be doing their job, but you can't expect immediate results. Patience is key.
Quote from: Byteme on April 09, 2008, 07:09:44 AM
I haven't read beyond this post so this may be old stuff by now. If so, sorry.
I think you guys are missing the point. LEOs, correct me if I am wrong.
No one is saying you can't discuss, criticize or complain about a cop or what they do or how they do it.. What is being objected to is the childish and chickensh*t way in which some of the posters did it (see my earlier post on this topic).
If I didn't know better I would swear some of those posts were written by 7th graders. That could have been an interesting topic but is got sidetracked by inmature posts and immediately went off topic.
Ever wonder why membership at Carspin stabilized at about 500 with perhaps 30-40 regular posters. It could be in part becausee any casual visitor would see that all to frequently topics typically devolve to name calling, off topic discussions, meaningless inmature posts after a couple of pages.
Still, it seems that we have to be much more careful around LEO's on this board than with other members... may be just me though.
And with Trep gone, hopefully the name calling and immature posts will cease too, since he was the source of all that shit.
Quote from: thecarnut on April 09, 2008, 09:20:35 AM
And with Trep gone, hopefully the name calling and immature posts will cease too, since he was the source of all that shit.
Trep and Nacar.
Quote from: Byteme on April 09, 2008, 09:47:54 AM
Trep and Nacar.
Nick hasn't started any bitchfights other than this one thread.
Quote from: thecarnut on April 09, 2008, 09:56:29 AM
Nick hasn't started any bitchfights other than this one thread.
I can think of a couple of other people who need to shape up or ship out. (That's not directed at you btw).
Quote from: thecarnut on April 09, 2008, 09:56:29 AM
Nick hasn't started any bitchfights other than this one thread.
Perhaps unfairly I was referring to him in reference to silly posts in genenral.
Sometimes I start looking at topics and have to check to see whether I am in the Carspin or the Cat Fancier's website. ;)
Quote from: Tave on April 08, 2008, 04:16:40 PM
We don't want to support "general" police bashing, either. It doesn't matter if it's personal or not.
What you call "general police bashing" I call legitmate criticism. If that's the stand this website takes, I don't want to be a part of it.
Welcome to the police state. Sheep.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 08, 2008, 04:08:54 PM
Err... jail? A rap studio? The Democratic National Convention? :devil:
Thanks for your serious answer to a serious question.
Quote from: Raza on April 08, 2008, 10:41:44 PM
Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down.
That's how I feel anyway. I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well. That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance.
There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police. There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too. Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police. If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.
Bingo.
Quote from: James Young on April 08, 2008, 10:56:35 PM
LEOs must not be immune from criticism.
We recruit, train and equip them at public expense to perform a public purpose. We burden them with extraordinary responsibility and provide extraordinary authority with which to execute that responsibility. Because of this exalted authority, LEOs should and must be held to a higher standard of behavior than civilians and, no, it doesn’t go away when you put away the badge. It goes with the territory.
Law enforcement has isolated itself and militarized itself to a point that so demeans the Jeffersonian ideal of a constable as to make it unrecognizable. Law enforcement has largely brought the criticism on itself.
I don’t enjoy “bashing” police but I’ll be damned if I won’t speak up to point out bad behavior and to provide a better way. The original incident that triggered so much puerile animosity in the forum has also generated a lot of criticism of law enforcement, especially among the very conservative elderly element (even older than me!) right here in Riverside County who saw a wasted federal earmark, heavy-handed police behavior and most especially the seizure/theft of private property. We cannot let that kind of abuse continue without protest.
It can't be stated enough.
Dave, interesting point on how the media covers police issues. Working at a newspaper, here's what I can tell you about it:
Say this happened around here and I were to write a story on it. Well, it's easy to find someone who had their car impounded and they'll be just giddy to bitch about it. If I called up the police chief, however, he's not really allowed to give personal opinions on things. He will provide the data, tell me the details of the operation and how it was funded, and any complaints or reasons why it took place. However, he's not going to cheerlead and give personal opinions to counter those of the guy who had his car taken away on a tow truck.
That's a big reason why these news stories tend to focus on the person who had the car towed away - because he's the only one giving a strong opinion.
Quote from: dsred on April 09, 2008, 03:53:39 PM
What you call "general police bashing" I call legitmate criticism. If that's the stand this website takes, I don't want to be a part of it.
Welcome to the police state. Sheep.
If you want your account deleted just say the word. If you don't understand the difference between a civil discussion and "bashing" then we don't need you here. Sorry if you think that's rude but since that's your general demeanor with your posts maybe it will come across more effectively.
Quote from: Catman on April 09, 2008, 04:22:11 PM
If you want your account deleted just say the word. If you don't understand the difference between a civil discussion and "bashing" then we don't need you here.
It started as a civil discussion. One started it, got banned. The other, who I consider committed a far more aggregious offense, "banned himself".
I understand the difference between legit criticism and bashing. Do you? Can you, given your occupation?
Feel free to think deeply before you give yourself an honest answer. Then, consider that maybe you shouldn't be a mod....
I for one refuse to walk around on eggshells because a few cops might be personally offended when others call out the dumb actions of a totally separate group of cops. Thin blue line indeed.
If that is truely a "banning offense" then everything I've said about this website is bang on...
Quote from: dsred on April 09, 2008, 04:30:27 PM
It started as a civil discussion. One started it, got banned. The other, who I consider committed a far more aggregious offense, "banned himself".
I understand the difference between legit criticism and bashing. Do you? Can you, given your occupation?
Feel free to think deeply before you give yourself an honest answer. Then, consider that maybe you shouldn't be a mod....
I for one refuse to walk around on eggshells because a few cops might be personally offended when others call out the dumb actions of a totally separate group of cops. Thin blue line indeed.
If that is truely a "banning offense" then everything I've said about this website is bang on...
Here we go. So I'm a police officer so there's a problem? I've banned many people for bashing and name calling which had nothing to do with "my occupation". Again, if you don't like it you may leave forthwith. WHy stay here just to be sour and negative?
Quote from: dsred on April 09, 2008, 04:30:27 PM
It started as a civil discussion. One started it, got banned. The other, who I consider committed a far more aggregious offense, "banned himself".
I understand the difference between legit criticism and bashing. Do you? Can you, given your occupation?
Feel free to think deeply before you give yourself an honest answer. Then, consider that maybe you shouldn't be a mod....
I for one refuse to walk around on eggshells because a few cops might be personally offended when others call out the dumb actions of a totally separate group of cops. Thin blue line indeed.
If that is truely a "banning offense" then everything I've said about this website is bang on...
Catman is pretty much the coolest and most laid back LEO here...
It's just the other people (rohan) that make it clear that they're "better" than you because they're a LEO, or at least that's the feeling I get.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 09, 2008, 04:20:47 PM
Dave, interesting point on how the media covers police issues. Working at a newspaper, here's what I can tell you about it:
Say this happened around here and I were to write a story on it. Well, it's easy to find someone who had their car impounded and they'll be just giddy to bitch about it. If I called up the police chief, however, he's not really allowed to give personal opinions on things. He will provide the data, tell me the details of the operation and how it was funded, and any complaints or reasons why it took place. However, he's not going to cheerlead and give personal opinions to counter those of the guy who had his car taken away on a tow truck.
That's a big reason why these news stories tend to focus on the person who had the car towed away - because he's the only one giving a strong opinion.
Here's a question that's not really related to the thread but related what you said.
So can't the media just post facts and information on both sides without giving too much of an opinion? Because more and more, it feels like the news stories are becoming more of an opinion piece with an agenda than actual facts or news. And most of the time, no follow up stories either.
Quote from: dsred on April 09, 2008, 04:30:27 PM
It started as a civil discussion.
If that's what you consider a "civil discussion," I'd hate to see what you'd consider a flame-fest!
In the first page alone, we have...
Quoteagencies who waste public resources hassling people instead of cracking down on real crime can suck my balls.
QuoteFUCK POLICE FUCK POLICE FUCK
QuoteIt seems like as long as the asshole police claims its purpose is street racing, they can do whatever the fuck they want, including confiscating your car and destroying it.
QuoteCops can be so full of fail sometimes.
Yes, truly the pinnacle of mature and civil discussion, there...:rolleyes:
Quote from: NomisR on April 09, 2008, 05:17:59 PM
Here's a question that's not really related to the thread but related what you said.
So can't the media just post facts and information on both sides without giving too much of an opinion? Because more and more, it feels like the news stories are becoming more of an opinion piece with an agenda than actual facts or news. And most of the time, no follow up stories either.
I was sued in federal court along with a bunch of others. I can tell you this, it is very frustrated when you are slandered with lies in the newspaper every other day and never get the opportunity to defend oneself. No, we are not afforded the same rights as the average citizen. We're ordered to "keep quiet". So people read the newspaper and all they read is the BS from these people day after day without any personal response from the accused. The only help we got was from the anonymous posters who knew these douchebags personally. Anyone else just piled on with the "cops are corrupt", etc. If people hear or read enough of something they often believe it. As an LEO you try to do the right thing and often get shit on for your effort. Had I known the reality of the job I probably would have avoided it.
We actually had one of the local "news investigator teams" go after us. They went to talk to the chief and were told that he cannot comment on an ongoing case, etc. So what did they do? The whole piece was devoted to the "victims", their lies and crocodile tears. Of course they gave us air time too, filming officers going home for lunch, camping outside their houses and following them around town. It was a real low point in my career. I lost a lot of faith in the public, the court system and my opinion of the media is even lower than it was. This case involved an officer getting kicked repeatedly in the head which resulted in a concussion that put him out of work for months.
Quote from: bing_oh on April 09, 2008, 05:22:49 PM
If that's what you consider a "civil discussion," I'd hate to see what you'd consider a flame-fest!
In the first page alone, we have...
Yes, truly the pinnacle of mature and civil discussion, there...:rolleyes:
Don't see any personal attacks there...
PS- What, no rohan quotes....?
Quote from: Catman on April 09, 2008, 04:39:11 PM
Here we go. So I'm a police officer so there's a problem? I've banned many people for bashing and name calling which had nothing to do with "my occupation". Again, if you don't like it you may leave forthwith. WHy stay here just to be sour and negative?
I don't really care about "name calling". I have stated as much in Hounddog's Thread. Honestly, these are just words. ALL should have thicker skins.
My "problem" is with the perception of what "police bashing" actually is, and how it is seemingly enforced here.
I've come to like it here as the discussions are "mature" and relevant most of the time. But if they digress a bit, who cares? Like I said, this is an internet forum, and anyone who takes ANYTHING said here to heart in an obviously negative way has SERIOUS issues in other areas of their lives.
Quote from: Catman on April 09, 2008, 05:31:20 PM
I was sued in federal court along with a bunch of others. I can tell you this, it is very frustrated when you are slandered with lies in the newspaper every other day and never get the opportunity to defend oneself. No, we are not afforded the same rights as the average citizen. We're ordered to "keep quiet". So people read the newspaper and all they read is the BS from these people day after day without any personal response from the accused. The only help we got was from the anonymous posters who knew these douchebags personally. Anyone else just piled on with the "cops are corrupt", etc. If people hear or read enough of something they often believe it. As an LEO you try to do the right thing and often get shit on for your effort. Had I known the reality of the job I probably would have avoided it.
We actually had one of the local "news investigator teams" go after us. They went to talk to the chief and were told that he cannot comment on an ongoing case, etc. So what did they do? The whole piece was devoted to the "victims", their lies and crocodile tears. Of course they gave us air time too, filming officers going home for lunch, camping outside their houses and following them around town. It was a real low point in my career. I lost a lot of faith in the public, the court system and my opinion of the media is even lower than it was. This case involved an officer getting kicked repeatedly in the head which resulted in a concussion that put him out of work for months.
I have gone thru the same thing. I am (obviously) not a LEO but I am a government employee and I feel your pain. It's not a good feeling being persecuted and second guessed by the media, taxpayers, or anyone else who feels the need to pile on.
That said, we choose a life serving the public and taking a alot of shit is part of the territory. This is an internet forum, and really, compared to "real life", nothinjg said on here can hurt anyone, really. That's why I'm surprised at the reactions I guess.
Quote from: dsred on April 09, 2008, 05:46:11 PM
Don't see any personal attacks there...
PS- What, no rohan quotes....?
Didn't say anything about personal attacks, did I? You said the discussion started out civilly. I gave you a series of less-than-civil quotes from the beginning of the discussion. Rohan didn't enter the discussion until, what, page 4? That was well after the whole thread had spiraled out of control (not that it was ever really under control).
Quote from: dsred on April 09, 2008, 05:52:39 PM
I don't really care about "name calling". I have stated as much in Hounddog's Thread. Honestly, these are just words. ALL should have thicker skins.
My "problem" is with the perception of what "police bashing" actually is, and how it is seemingly enforced here.
I've come to like it here as the discussions are "mature" and relevant most of the time. But if they digress a bit, who cares? Like I said, this is an internet forum, and anyone who takes ANYTHING said here to heart in an obviously negative way has SERIOUS issues in other areas of their lives.
A lot of us here have been together on these forums for years and one of the guys at the center of this was with me last week at the NY Auto show and two other times. So, it's a little different for some of us because we know each other a bit on a personal level if that makes any sense. On that end, it was a bit of a personal let down for me.
I've had plenty of differences with people here just ask Raza but it hasn't stopped me from liking him. We are at odds at times but I'm not afraid to bark at him on occasion. The reason this forum is a little different or has been a little different is it is a bit personal on a lot of levels.
Wait, so I guess this isn't the right thread to post a discussion analyzing NWA lyrics.....?
:lol:
Quote from: bing_oh on April 09, 2008, 06:01:30 PM
Didn't say anything about personal attacks, did I? You said the discussion started out civilly. I gave you a series of less-than-civil quotes from the beginning of the discussion. Rohan didn't enter the discussion until, what, page 4? That was well after the whole thread had spiraled out of control (not that it was ever really under control).
Bing, sorry I should have stated my position in a clearer manner. A generic "cops suck" (ya ya I know) seems to be taken as a personal affront by some. I don't think anyone meant it to be that way. If they did, they should be treated as the punks they are.
However, it takes a better man to "turn the other cheek". And like it or not, either thru self promotion by the LE community or societal image/perception, people subject their LEO's to a higher standard of behaviour. When it doesn't happen.... well, you've seen the result.
Quote from: Catman on April 09, 2008, 06:02:19 PM
A lot of us here have been together on these forums for years and one of the guys at the center of this was with me last week at the NY Auto show and two other times. So, it's a little different for some of us because we know each other a bit on a personal level if that makes any sense. On that end, it was a bit of a personal let down for me.
I've had plenty of differences with people here just ask Raza but it hasn't stopped me from liking him. We are at odds at times but I'm not afraid to bark at him on occasion. The reason this forum is a little different or has been a little different is it is a bit personal on a lot of levels.
I hear ya....
Quote from: CALL_911 on April 08, 2008, 07:26:44 PM
With what he sent drinkwater, I think he deserved it more than Nick.
Def. agree
A ceremonial "banning himself" is kinda ludicrous. I'll be frank: If Rohan wasn't a LEO, he wouldn't have gotten the "banning himself" privilege.
Catman, I like you and you represent LEO's well. You also seem to be a fair mod. However, the internet should never never never be personal. That's my opinion. The internet is the butt of the joke of humanity. It's all fun and games. Almost how real life should be, but I suppose our philosophies are different.
"The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question: "Is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey, don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride."
-- Bill Hicks. God bless him.
Quote from: Danish on April 09, 2008, 06:24:00 PM
Def. agree
A ceremonial "banning himself" is kinda ludicrous. I'll be frank: If Rohan wasn't a LEO, he wouldn't have gotten the "banning himself" privilege.
You're right we told him to ban himself before we did it. :rolleyes: He got fed up and left, end of story. It should be pretty obvious that mods came late to the problem.
Quote from: Middle_Path on April 09, 2008, 06:44:21 PM
However, the internet should never never never be personal. That's my opinion. The internet is the butt of the joke of humanity. It's all fun and games. Almost how real life should be, but I suppose our philosophies are different.
This sounds like a cover for over the top posts and personal attacks. There are real people behind these keyboards.
Quote from: Middle_Path on April 09, 2008, 06:44:21 PM
Catman, I like you and you represent LEO's well. You also seem to be a fair mod. However, the internet should never never never be personal. That's my opinion. The internet is the butt of the joke of humanity. It's all fun and games. Almost how real life should be, but I suppose our philosophies are different.
"The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question: "Is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey, don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride."
-- Bill Hicks. God bless him.
I really don't disagree in principle but there is also the realization that there needs to be some ground rules here, limits that we decided on a long time ago when we created the site. Above all, mutual respect is a good goal even on the internet. We're all still people.
Quote from: Catman on April 09, 2008, 07:00:18 PM
We're all still people.
AHHHH! So is Soylent Green! AHHHHH! :cheers:
LOL. Wait a second here, did Middle Path give me a compliment? :wtf:
Quote from: dsred on April 09, 2008, 06:10:42 PM
Bing, sorry I should have stated my position in a clearer manner. A generic "cops suck" (ya ya I know) seems to be taken as a personal affront by some. I don't think anyone meant it to be that way. If they did, they should be treated as the punks they are.
However, it takes a better man to "turn the other cheek". And like it or not, either thru self promotion by the LE community or societal image/perception, people subject their LEO's to a higher standard of behaviour. When it doesn't happen.... well, you've seen the result.
I'm sorry, dsred, but I think there were some comments made in that thread that were very intentionally personal. I recall someone telling me, in no uncertain terms, that I wasn't welcome to post here anymore (you'll notice how well I listened to him). Those kinds of comments don't exactly encourage an open exchange of ideas.
I did my damndest to "turn the other cheek" and continue with a mature debate with people like Soup who were still trying to act like adults. All I got was slapped across the other cheek from the immature hoard. I've got a thick skin and can take alot of abuse but, LEO or not, I'm still only human and can only take so much before I respond in kind.
Quote from: Catman on April 09, 2008, 07:05:23 PM
LOL. Wait a second here, did Middle Path give me a compliment? :wtf:
:lol:
Quote from: bing_oh on April 09, 2008, 07:06:18 PM
I'm sorry, dsred, but I think there were some comments made in that thread that were very intentionally personal. I recall someone telling me, in no uncertain terms, that I wasn't welcome to post here anymore (you'll notice how well I listened to him). Those kinds of comments don't exactly encourage an open exchange of ideas.
I did my damndest to "turn the other cheek" and continue with a mature debate with people like Soup who were still trying to act like adults. All I got was slapped across the other cheek from the immature hoard. I've got a thick skin and can take alot of abuse but, LEO or not, I'm still only human and can only take so much before I respond in kind.
I have to say Bing_oh, you do a fine job of trying to explain the issues much better than me. I used to do a decent job of it but I got tired of it a long time ago.
Quote from: Danish on April 09, 2008, 06:24:00 PM
Def. agree
A ceremonial "banning himself" is kinda ludicrous. I'll be frank: If Rohan wasn't a LEO, he wouldn't have gotten the "banning himself" privilege.
Personally, I tend to prefer banning the originator of the argument than the person who gets angry because they were baited.
Quote from: Byteme on April 09, 2008, 07:09:44 AM
Ever wonder why membership at Carspin stabilized at about 500 with perhaps 30-40 regular posters. It could be in part becausee any casual visitor would see that all to frequently topics typically devolve to name calling, off topic discussions, meaningless inmature posts after a couple of pages.
The reason the growth is slow is because we aren't indexed well by search engines, don't do any advertising, and there really aren't many ways for us to be found.
Quote from: dsred on April 09, 2008, 04:30:27 PM
I for one refuse to walk around on eggshells because a few cops might be personally offended when others call out the dumb actions of a totally separate group of cops. Thin blue line indeed.
Yeah, because the cops woke up that day and said, "Hey, let's all stay late and give out tickets and tow cars for hours in a parking lot." Can't say I've met many cops who would relish that assignment. Blame the politicians who approved the $500K grant if you want someone to blame.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 09, 2008, 07:19:25 PM
Yeah, because the cops woke up that day and said, "Hey, let's all stay late and give out tickets and tow cars for hours in a parking lot." Can't say I've met many cops who would relish that assignment. Blame the politicians who approved the $500K grant if you want someone to blame.
Well, that does though beg the question: who was it that applied for the grant, and who was it that decided what sort of actions that grant would enable?
Quote from: bing_oh on April 09, 2008, 07:06:18 PM
I'm sorry, dsred, but I think there were some comments made in that thread that were very intentionally personal. I recall someone telling me, in no uncertain terms, that I wasn't welcome to post here anymore (you'll notice how well I listened to him). Those kinds of comments don't exactly encourage an open exchange of ideas.
I did my damndest to "turn the other cheek" and continue with a mature debate with people like Soup who were still trying to act like adults. All I got was slapped across the other cheek from the immature hoard. I've got a thick skin and can take alot of abuse but, LEO or not, I'm still only human and can only take so much before I respond in kind.
I know. It gets heated but then most everyone calms down and has "sober second thoughts". But by then it may be too late.
That's why I (try to) take it for what it is.
The Internet. A highly impersonal form of communication. I don't know how old you are (I'm 46) but by your demeanor and intelligence I would expect you to be an individual with, uh, "life experience".
Herein lies the problem with the Internet. Individuals here, from 12 to 80, want to be perceived as "equals" when in fact that is not the case.
In a face to face conversation, you can make judgments on the competence of an individual based upon such factors as age, demaneanor, appearance, inflection of voice, etc. On the Internet, you just can't do that. This cuts two ways:
1) All expect and demand that their opinions be taken with equal weight, when in fact due to a lack of life experience they truly are not.
2) When those who are confronted with the above by those with more life experience, they rebel as they perceive others (as surely this post will be perceived) as condescending. But the fact is that due to a lack of life experience they truly do not know....
Sorry for digressing. Am I making any sense?
Quote from: Catman on April 09, 2008, 07:11:08 PM
I have to say Bing_oh, you do a fine job of trying to explain the issues much better than me. I used to do a decent job of it but I got tired of it a long time ago.
Thanks, Catman. Maybe I just havn't been banging my head against that proverbal wall as long as you have (or I have a thicker skull so the head banging hasn't done as much brain damage :lol:).
Quote from: TurboDan on April 09, 2008, 07:19:25 PM
Yeah, because the cops woke up that day and said, "Hey, let's all stay late and give out tickets and tow cars for hours in a parking lot." Can't say I've met many cops who would relish that assignment. Blame the politicians who approved the $500K grant if you want someone to blame.
I think you missed the point of the sentence you quoted. You might want to read it again.
I'd say that there is a long history of issues with street racing, illegal modifications, and so forth in the area. This is hardly the first time I've read about something like this. The grant is likely in response to the issues they've had there.
This was in response to Soup, btw.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 09, 2008, 07:19:25 PM
Yeah, because the cops woke up that day and said, "Hey, let's all stay late and give out tickets and tow cars for hours in a parking lot." Can't say I've met many cops who would relish that assignment. Blame the politicians who approved the $500K grant if you want someone to blame.
There's always the issue of people breaking various laws and being a general nuisance. If one was to actually look at that story from a a site that is not biased on the side of car enthusiasts they would notice that there were scores of violations related to (engine mods - illegal in CA), speed exhibition, possession of stolen vehicle parts, public drinking, etc. As long as society feels the need to impose laws upon its people then we should expect law enforcement to perform law enforcement.
People need to have some common sense. These types of operations are not the first option by any stretch of the imagination. These types of issues always begin as a small nuisance and complaints and are almost always handled in the least intrusive method. 99% of LEO's prefer the path of least resistance when dealing with public peace issues (i.e. approach the offenders, ask them to knock it off and leave). Sometimes that's enough and other times you get called back and see the same faces who have basically told you without speaking that they prefer to flaunt opposition to the police. Someone is put in charge of public peace and it's the police. If people choose to push back on the police when they are violating the law then the police must act. Believe me, considering the scale of this operation, it was a looooooooooooooong rode getting there and it started innocuously, it almost always does. But, in the end, it's always the police that are the bad guys in these situations and no one but them seems to be responsible for anything.
Quote from: dsred on April 09, 2008, 07:23:15 PM
I know. It gets heated but then most everyone calms down and has "sober second thoughts". But by then it may be too late.
That's why I (try to) take it for what it is.
The Internet. A highly impersonal form of communication. I don't know how old you are (I'm 46) but by your demeanor and intelligence I would expect you to be an individual with, uh, "life experience".
Herein lies the problem with the Internet. Individuals here, from 12 to 80, want to be perceived as "equals" when in fact that is not the case.
In a face to face conversation, you can make judgments on the competence of an individual based upon such factors as age, demaneanor, appearance, inflection of voice, etc. On the Internet, you just can't do that. This cuts two ways:
1) All expect and demand that their opinions be taken with equal weight, when in fact due to a lack of life experience they truly are not.
2) When those who are confronted with the above by those with more life experience, they rebel as they perceive others (as surely this post will be perceived) as condescending. But the fact is that due to a lack of life experience they truly do not know....
Sorry for digressing. Am I making any sense?
You're making perfect sense. I can understand things being said in the heat of the moment. That's one of the reasons that I didn't jump on Rohan's outburst like some others have (not because I'm a LEO defending another LEO, contrary to popular belief). I strongly suspect that Randy read the thread, got himself worked up, and shotgunned out some comments that were probably later viewed with a bit of regret. Raza got himslef a bit worked up and confrontational early on in that thread too, but we later got into a good mature debate. I didn't hold his early confrontational tone against him either.
I'm 32 and have been a cop for 10 years now. I know that I have a different perception of alot of things because of differences in age, experience, and personal bias. But, I majorly believe in mutual respect and treating people like you'd want to be treated yourself...even here on the impersonal internet. Why others can't apply that very simple rule...something that my parents taught me around the time I learned to walk...I cannot understand.
Quote from: R-inge on April 09, 2008, 06:41:05 AM
Pirates of the Burning Sea, an mmorpg that I got into recently. Very addicting.
And maybe I am overreacting but that thread about the kid whose parents let her die of diabetic shock rather than give her treatment was discouraging for what I percieved as a lack of civility and a general bashing of anyone with religious beliefs, and this recent thread, convince me that there are too many people who don't know how to express themselves over the internet without taking it to 11 all the time. And yeah I know I've been guilty of that myself in the past.
Like I said, a few people need to disappear, and it seems like some have already been dealt with, so I will give this place more time and energy in a bit of time and see if I think it's worth it. FWIW this place is losing me. Some may not care...I don't blame them.
Some people deserve to be ridiculed.
:huh:
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/pritos/MTB/1207560527709.gif)
Quote from: Catman on April 09, 2008, 07:44:34 PM
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/pritos/MTB/1207560527709.gif)
OWNED! :clap:
That cat has superior balance skillz. :praise:
Quote from: TurboDan on April 09, 2008, 07:16:11 PM
The reason the growth is slow is because we aren't indexed well by search engines, don't do any advertising, and there really aren't many ways for us to be found.
I've got to say John's issue is probably a part of it. But now with certain elements no longer on our periodic table, things should be better.
Quote from: bing_oh on April 09, 2008, 07:34:37 PM
Raza got himslef a bit worked up and confrontational early on in that thread too, but we later got into a good mature debate. I didn't hold his early confrontational tone against him either.
Oh come now, that was just a 4 on the hostility scale from me.
:lol: ;)
Quote from: TurboDan on April 09, 2008, 04:20:47 PM
Dave, interesting point on how the media covers police issues. Working at a newspaper, here's what I can tell you about it:
Say this happened around here and I were to write a story on it. Well, it's easy to find someone who had their car impounded and they'll be just giddy to bitch about it. If I called up the police chief, however, he's not really allowed to give personal opinions on things. He will provide the data, tell me the details of the operation and how it was funded, and any complaints or reasons why it took place. However, he's not going to cheerlead and give personal opinions to counter those of the guy who had his car taken away on a tow truck.
That's a big reason why these news stories tend to focus on the person who had the car towed away - because he's the only one giving a strong opinion.
A good journalist will look beyond the superficialities of the situation you describe and try to present a balanced account. Few seem to do that. This is either caused by honest but sloppy and shallow reporting and fact gathering, or deliberate distortion of facts to support a certain agenda.
I have learned over the years to deeply distrust news accounts of events.
Quote from: bing_oh on April 09, 2008, 07:34:37 PM
But, I majorly believe in mutual respect and treating people like you'd want to be treated yourself...even here on the impersonal internet. Why others can't apply that very simple rule...something that my parents taught me around the time I learned to walk...I cannot understand.
I have the same credo. But when others fail to do so, (and sometimes believe me I have to bite my tongue...errrr...fingers) I try not to lash out. But hey, nobody's perfect! If that happens I have to take it for what it is, and I hope others feel the same.
Quote from: Psilos on April 08, 2008, 11:40:59 PM
I might argue that LEOs have done things to deserve or provoke those comments, at least in a vague large-scale way, while some ethnic group (or whomever) hasn't. Calling an LEO an idiot is like calling a plumber an idiot: might be true, probably isn't, but it's not the same as using a slur against a Jew. Additionally, and this applies fairly specifically, it's not too hard to pick out a post that promotes the frat boy mentality without offering any more dimension. Or are you saying that LEOs are fratty because the public views them as one-dimensional?
Well, the foundation of racial/ethnic/gender discrimination is that members of the group, in general and/or on a large scale, have done things to deserve or provoke it. For example, statistics about crime among certain ethnic groups, genders and/or age groups, have been used to exclude them from residence in certain areas and subject them to additional police scrutiny.
Surely, you don't agree with doing that, yet you follow the same thought process with resepct to your attitude toward LEOs. Your comment that you 'can't see LEOs as anything else' falls right into the same intellectual rut. Essentially denying an LEO his humanity is far different from saying that every plumber is an idiot, as an example. I think you can see the difference.
Like many who practice political correctness, you seem to have a blind spot for your own practice of the thought processes that you condemn when used by other people.
I don't want to comment on what happened, because the points have been made, but I'd like to look at this post in a general context:
Quote from: dsred on April 09, 2008, 05:52:39 PM
I don't really care about "name calling". I have stated as much in Hounddog's Thread. Honestly, these are just words. ALL should have thicker skins.
My "problem" is with the perception of what "police bashing" actually is, and how it is seemingly enforced here.
I've come to like it here as the discussions are "mature" and relevant most of the time. But if they digress a bit, who cares? Like I said, this is an internet forum, and anyone who takes ANYTHING said here to heart in an obviously negative way has SERIOUS issues in other areas of their lives.
You're right. This forum will get awfully boring if everyone takes everything to heart.
On the other hand, most of our members saw what happened on the C&D boards when people could say anything they want and get away with it. We came here, not only because we were tired of listening to it,
but also because we were tired of getting involved. I know I'm not the only person who acted differently, or wrote differently, in that environment. We came here looking for a fresh start.
We're willing to close a thread every now and then, even at the expense of full "freedom of speech," because if we don't,
all conversation will start to suffer. Maybe the thread in question was out of line, maybe not. In the end, I leave it up to the moderators, because I trust them to keep what happened at C&D from happening here. You can't make an omlette...
Quote from: Tave on April 10, 2008, 09:58:44 AM
I don't want to comment on what happened, because the points have been made, but I'd like to look at this post in a general context:
You're right. This forum will get awfully boring if everyone takes everything to heart.
On the other hand, most of our members saw what happened on the C&D boards when people could say anything they want and get away with it. We came here, not only because we were tired of listening to it, but also because we were tired of getting involved. I know I'm not the only person who acted differently, or wrote differently, in that environment. We came here looking for a fresh start.
We're willing to close a thread every now and then, even at the expense of full "freedom of speech," because if we don't, all conversation will start to suffer. Maybe the thread in question was out of line, maybe not. In the end, I leave it up to the moderators, because I trust them to keep what happened at C&D from happening here. You can't make an omlette...
I think you make a good point, Tave. The reason most of us left C&D and came here is because the 'anything goes' mentality there caused the whole forum to degenerate.
Even though this is an internet forum where most of the members will never meet each other, it is in a sense a community and every community has to have certain standards of behavior if it is to remain a desirable place to be. Many people don't seem to realize the cost of the 'anything goes' mentality, and not ironically, it's many of the same people who place no value on law enforcement in general.
No enforcement mechanism is perfect, but that doesn't mean that it should totally be abandoned. That's the logic mistake that many people make. That goes for law enforcement in general, and this forum in particular.
I think we have good moderators and a good administrator here who have kept this site a friendly place to be, in contrast to many other internet sites. We should appreciate and support them.
Well said, Tave.
Quote from: Tave on April 10, 2008, 09:58:44 AM
We're willing to close a thread every now and then, even at the expense of full "freedom of speech," because if we don't, all conversation will start to suffer. Maybe the thread in question was out of line, maybe not. In the end, I leave it up to the moderators, because I trust them to keep what happened at C&D from happening here. You can't make an omlette...
It's probably worth remembering that this is a privately operated site. The participants (us)are here as guests of the owners. They have the right to set the rules and policies under which we are allowed to participate. This isn't Speaker's Corner in London where anybody can get up and say whatever they like with no consequences.
Quote from: Byteme on April 10, 2008, 10:48:33 AM
It's probably worth remembering that this is a privately operated site. The participants (us)are here as guests of the owners. They have the right to set the rules and policies under which we are allowed to participate. This isn't Speaker's Corner in London where anybody can get up and say whatever they like with no consequences.
Bingo. All of the arguments about censorship and freedom of speech are moot on a private webpage.
Quote from: R-inge on April 10, 2008, 12:11:27 PM
Bingo. All of the arguments about censorship and freedom of speech are moot on a private webpage.
Yeah, but the admin hasn't made a rule about bitching about it yet.
edit in a smile...
":lol:"
That leaves us then with the fact that whether or not someone's warped perspective defines a given behavior as bashing or not, the owner or the representatives of the owner have the final say in the matter. And like Catman said, anyone who can't see eye to eye with them (or at least hold their tongue if not) should find another private webpage that supports them.
Quote from: R-inge on April 10, 2008, 01:01:05 PM
That leaves us then with the fact that whether or not someone's warped perspective defines a given behavior as bashing or not, the owner or the representatives of the owner have the final say in the matter. And like Catman said, anyone who can't see eye to eye with them (or at least hold their tongue if not) should find another private webpage that supports them.
A forum is like a high school. If somebody in authority isn't controlling it to some degree, the most aggressive and loudest element will, and ruin the experience for everybody else. Ditto for law enforcement in general, as well as military power for that matter.
Quote from: Tave on April 10, 2008, 09:58:44 AM
You can't make an omlette...
Actually, I can make a pretty mean omelette.
Quote from: R-inge on April 10, 2008, 12:11:27 PM
Bingo. All of the arguments about censorship and freedom of speech are moot on a private webpage.
Right; but be aware that as an internet page, if freedoms are too restricted, people will leave. This isn't Soviet Russia that people are stuck here.
Quote from: dazzleman on April 10, 2008, 01:10:17 PM
A forum is like a high school. If somebody in authority isn't controlling it to some degree, the most aggressive and loudest element will, and ruin the experience for everybody else. Ditto for law enforcement in general, as well as military power for that matter.
Of course you're in favor of stringent control.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=14180.msg802121#msg802121 date=1207857894
Right; but be aware that as an internet page, if freedoms are too restricted, people will leave. This isn't Soviet Russia that people are stuck here.
With the right amount of controls, only troublemakers will leave, which is a good thing.
With no controls, good people leave.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=14180.msg802122#msg802122 date=1207857941
Of course you're in favor of stringent control.
:ohyeah:
You got that right, buddy. :lol:
Quote from: dazzleman on April 10, 2008, 03:56:11 PM
:ohyeah:
You got that right, buddy. :lol:
It's all about public caning! :ohyeah:
Quote from: NomisR on April 11, 2008, 10:09:17 AM
It's all about public caning! :ohyeah:
I support public caning wholeheartedly..... :lol:
Quote from: bing_oh on April 09, 2008, 07:34:37 PM
You're making perfect sense. I can understand things being said in the heat of the moment. That's one of the reasons that I didn't jump on Rohan's outburst like some others have (not because I'm a LEO defending another LEO, contrary to popular belief). I strongly suspect that Randy read the thread, got himself worked up, and shotgunned out some comments that were probably later viewed with a bit of regret. Raza got himslef a bit worked up and confrontational early on in that thread too, but we later got into a good mature debate. I didn't hold his early confrontational tone against him either.
I'm 32 and have been a cop for 10 years now. I know that I have a different perception of alot of things because of differences in age, experience, and personal bias. But, I majorly believe in mutual respect and treating people like you'd want to be treated yourself...even here on the impersonal internet. Why others can't apply that very simple rule...something that my parents taught me around the time I learned to walk...I cannot understand.
But still you must remember what it was like when you were 17 or 19 or 21 or 25 :huh:.
I think that anyone in this age bracket is exploring a lot of bounderies and, maybe, bouncing themselves off a few preconceived notions just to test it and themselves. All in all, a good thing. Therefore, those with more life experience need to set an example, as well as cut a bit of slack, when interacting with those who have experienced less of life.
I must be missing something, or maybe some posts were deleted, but the only person really out of line in that thread was Rohan. He physically threatened somebody with very little provocation, that seems worthy of a permanent ban if you ask me.
Police bashing is making derogatory remarks about cops in general, it was pretty clear that the negative posts were about the Riverside police in particular who, in reference to the article, deserved it (whether the article was biased or not, I am not going to argue, but the other side never presented an alternate POV).
To be honest, this is why I quit posting in this forum for the most part. I got tired of police officers being grouped together and being called; ignorant, lazy, uneducated, shiftless, stupid, and a myriad of other names without any (or much) challenge by the modding team.
Yet, it is interesting that it took a fit of frustration, anger, and rule breaking by a police officer, to warrant the attention of this sites "police."
I would go so far as to label that 'Irony.'
Understand, this is not an intentional slam against all of, or any of the moderators in any way. Just an observation/thought I had while reading this thread!
Quote from: hounddog on April 11, 2008, 10:17:53 PM
To be honest, this is why I quit posting in this forum for the most part. I got tired of police officers being grouped together and being called; ignorant, lazy, uneducated, shiftless, stupid, and a myriad of other names without any (or much) challenge by the modding team.
Yet, it is interesting that it took a fit of frustration, anger, and rule breaking by a police officer, to warrant the attention of this sites "police."
I would go so far as to label that 'Irony.'
Understand, this is not an intentional slam against all of, or any of the moderators in any way. Just an observation/thought I had while reading this thread!
Um, what don't you guys get about the fact that those insults were only against the Riverside police, who, as TBR said, deserved what they got (as per the article)?
Nick even said that he had nothing against police officers in general, just those in the article. Is that so hard to understand?
One other thing:
Almost every police officer has tried to make eloquent arguments, so far as he can, regarding laws, traffic enforcement, arrests, how we drive, why we drive, etc., only to have some here on this board go as far out of their way as they could to make us look "wrong."
Only a small handful here have ever attempted to understand our debate points, or even put themselves in our shoes. Most of the time we are called "nazi", or told we are selling propaganda, or even told we are just plain stupid and uneducated or on the take.
It is very difficult to remain articulate in the face of such ignorance topic after topic.
Quote from: thecarnut on April 11, 2008, 10:21:19 PM
Um, what don't you guys get about the fact that those insults were only against the Riverside police, who, as TBR said, deserved what they got (as per the article)?
Nick even said that he had nothing against police officers in general, just those in the article. Is that so hard to understand?
You assume a great deal in my post.
Quote from: hounddog on April 11, 2008, 10:25:42 PM
You assume a great deal in my post.
Care to explain?
It seemed really obvious (to me at least) that Nick wasn't talking about police officers in general. :huh:
Quote from: thecarnut on April 11, 2008, 10:28:04 PM
Care to explain?
It seemed really obvious (to me at least) that Nick wasn't talking about police officers in general. :huh:
I have no intention of explaining further. I just am not feeling like I need to.
Quote from: hounddog on April 11, 2008, 10:29:54 PM
I have no intention of explaining further. I just am not feeling like I need to.
Whatever, I've assumed nothing.
You said that the police officers were being grouped up. In fact, that was exactly what was not happening in that thread, yet you apparently missed it.
Read: forum
Look, it's only natural to take offense when somebody ridicules the job you're doing: especially when it's something you take pride in and doubly so when it's something as all-encompassing as police work.
And it's all too easy of a mistake to make to lump all of the people that have any criticism of that together as one group.
Of course the opposite is true too: that's it's all too easy to see police officers as a great undifferentiated mass, as if they were all cut from the same cloth and of the same mindset.
I think that when approaching these sorts of topics on this board we need to make a conscious effort to seperate the individual factors and not treat either side as a stereotype.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 11, 2008, 10:36:16 PM
Look, it's only natural to take offense when somebody ridicules the job you're doing:
No. I spelled out what I think is ignorant behavior which is offensive, and pretty clearly I might add.
Everyone thinks they know how to be police officers because they have watched Miami Vice or old reruns of TJ Hooker, when in fact, only the police officers here have any idea what our job even entails. None of you have the slightest idea how to do even our most basic and mundane tasks, the statutory requirements, the liability issues, the training issues, or even the basic certification processes required by law to do those tasks.
Yet, you are all Jonny on the Spot with advice on how to run a police department.
It gets old, and that is one of the three reasons I do not come to this forum much anymore.
"And it's all too easy of a mistake to make to lump all of the people that have any criticism of that together as one group"
Nevermind.
Quote from: hounddog on April 11, 2008, 10:47:16 PM
It gets old, and that is one of the three reasons I do not come to this forum much anymore.
Okay, so it's:
1.) Police bashing
2.) People have different opinions than me which are stupid and immature
3.) People tell me I'm wrong when I'm actually right
Quote from: Soup DeVille on April 11, 2008, 10:54:01 PM
"And it's all too easy of a mistake to make to lump all of the people that have any criticism of that together as one group"
Nevermind.
I do lump you into my groups, as a general laborer. Whatever that means, exactly!
You make a good point, I still stand with my post as a general statement.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on April 11, 2008, 10:56:31 PM
Okay, so it's:
1.) Police bashing
2.) People have different opinions than me which are stupid and immature
3.) People tell me I'm wrong when I'm actually right
My point concreted. Obviously, I erroneously believed there might be an opportunity for positive dialogue.
Dialogue need not be positive nor in full agreement to be "good."
Quote from: hounddog on April 11, 2008, 10:47:16 PM
No. I spelled out what I think is ignorant behavior which is offensive, and pretty clearly I might add.
Everyone thinks they know how to be police officers because they have watched Miami Vice or old reruns of TJ Hooker, when in fact, only the police officers here have any idea what our job even entails. None of you have the slightest idea how to do even our most basic and mundane tasks, the statutory requirements, the liability issues, the training issues, or even the basic certification processes required by law to do those tasks.
Yet, you are all Jonny on the Spot with advice on how to run a police department.
It gets old, and that is one of the three reasons I do not come to this forum much anymore.
You know, I think I have had more to drink than I thought originally. This actually made sense to me when I wrote it. Now, not so much.
Please disregard this post. It seems to have been slightly influenced by me being slightly under the influence. My apologies, boys. :cheers:
Quote from: the Teuton on April 11, 2008, 11:07:33 PM
Dialogue need not be positive nor in full agreement to be "good."
True. It does, however, need to be intellectual on some basic level.
Besides, I meant positive in the way of making ground and broad sense; as opposed to positive in the way of glad feelings.
Quote from: hounddog on April 11, 2008, 11:33:33 PM
True. It does, however, need to be intellectual on some basic level.
Besides, I meant positive in the way of making ground and broad sense; as opposed to positive in the way of glad feelings.
Yeah, but this is the internet, no grounds are ever made. Everyone just keeps repeating their points over and over, louder and louder until everyone keeps screaming and either gets sick of the thread and dies, or gets locked.
Quote from: hounddog on April 11, 2008, 10:17:53 PM
To be honest, this is why I quit posting in this forum for the most part. I got tired of police officers being grouped together and being called; ignorant, lazy, uneducated, shiftless, stupid, and a myriad of other names without any (or much) challenge by the modding team.
Yet, it is interesting that it took a fit of frustration, anger, and rule breaking by a police officer, to warrant the attention of this sites "police."
I would go so far as to label that 'Irony.'
Understand, this is not an intentional slam against all of, or any of the moderators in any way. Just an observation/thought I had while reading this thread!
Simply posting "where's the mods" doesn't send up smoke signals or set off alarms. It took me days to even figure out what Randy was talking about before he left. Mods can't be in every thread any more than an LEO can be in every neighborhood. If someone needs to report a post than they should use the "Report to moderator: link. And, if the mod feels there's an issue it'll be addressed.
As for the issue, I do find it amusing that people don't have a problem with stereotyping and prejudice until it's their group being targeted. It's OK to refer to police in general and insulting terms but when someone does the same to some group they're a part of they can't report the post fast enough. Being a police officer is an occupation but unlike a lot of jobs it has a lot more social structure within society in general. I don't really think a lot of people "get it", especially the younger posters. As is usually the case, if one practices mutual respect than things take care of itself.
Quote from: Catman on April 12, 2008, 05:46:17 AM
Simply posting "where's the mods" doesn't send up smoke signals or set off alarms. It took me days to even figure out what Randy was talking about before he left. Mods can't be in every thread any more than an LEO can be in every neighborhood. If someone needs to report a post than they should use the "Report to moderator: link. And, if the mod feels there's an issue it'll be addressed.
As for the issue, I do find it amusing that people don't have a problem with stereotyping and prejudice until it's their group being targeted. It's OK to refer to police in general and insulting terms but when someone does the same to some group they're a part of they can't report the post fast enough. Being a police officer is an occupation but unlike a lot of jobs it has a lot more social structure within society in general. I don't really think a lot of people "get it", especially the younger posters. As is usually the case, if one practices mutual respect than things take care of itself.
:hesaid:
I think it's very true that those who complain the loudest when their own perceived group or demographic are stereotyped are only too happy to do it to others. I pointed this out to Psilos in an earlier post.
I'll paraphrase something that Mao Zedong said to Gerald Ford in 1975 about the Soviet Union: "Today, it is the country that most zealously preaches peace that is the most dangerous source of war." In our society today, it is those who most zealously preach 'tolerance' who are among the biggest sources of intolerance.
I don't a lot of people are so smug and self-righteous that they have a total blind spot for the fact that they're doing themselves what they loudly condemn others for doing in a different context.
Dazzleman's post above is an example of extreme irony, kids.....
Quote from: TBR on April 11, 2008, 10:10:30 PM
I must be missing something, or maybe some posts were deleted, but the only person really out of line in that thread was Rohan. He physically threatened somebody with very little provocation, that seems worthy of a permanent ban if you ask me.
Police bashing is making derogatory remarks about cops in general, it was pretty clear that the negative posts were about the Riverside police in particular who, in reference to the article, deserved it (whether the article was biased or not, I am not going to argue, but the other side never presented an alternate POV).
You are missing something. Perhaps if the post here included....
FUCK HOME SCHOOLERS FUCK HOME SCHOOLERS FUCK HOME SCHOOLERS
You've gotten huffy when some people here have criticized home schooling in general. But, since you fell into that category you felt you needed to defend the stereotyping going on. Whould you have felt better if they came back and said that they had meant "Idiana Home Schoolers" and not Texas?
Regarding the police article there was no other POV presented because the story was taken from an enthusiast web site. They don't care what the police intent was.
http://www.instantriverside.com/riverside-news/inland-empire-news/watch-the-street-racing-sting-unfold/2008/03/29/
Modified engines and racing are illegal in CA. I guess the police should not enforce the law because you like cars. :rolleyes:
Modified engines are not illegal in California nor should they be.
It's just that the car haters in Sacremento tend to produce a lot of unnecessary red-tape trying to make it as hard as possible.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on April 12, 2008, 10:56:50 AM
Modified engines are not illegal in California nor should they be.
It's just that the car haters in Sacremento tend to produce a lot of unnecessary red-tape trying to make it as hard as possible.
I shouldn't say they all are illegal, most are. If one doesn't want to be cited they should follow the state law in CA. There's plenty of info about mods on the CHP site. If you do something illegal and get called on it, that's your fault not the police.
http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/streetlegal.html
Quote from: Catman on April 12, 2008, 11:47:32 AM
If you do something illegal and get called on it, that's your fault not the police.
http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/streetlegal.html
It pisses me off to no end when I read stuff on NASIOC from some real mental wonder about how the Cops are a bunch of "pigs" when he gets caught doing something illegal. Everyone has a responsibility to follow the law, whether they are ignorant of it or not.
Quote from: R-inge on April 12, 2008, 12:18:23 PM
It pisses me off to no end when I read stuff on NASIOC from some real mental wonder about how the Cops are a bunch of "pigs" when he gets caught doing something illegal. Everyone has a responsibility to follow the law, whether they are ignorant of it or not.
Exactly. Everyone KNOWS that modified cars are ba-aa-addd.... :rolleyes:
Quote from: Catman on April 12, 2008, 11:47:32 AM
I shouldn't say they all are illegal, most are. If one doesn't want to be cited they should follow the state law in CA. There's plenty of info about mods on the CHP site. If you do something illegal and get called on it, that's your fault not the police.
http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/streetlegal.html
I'd blame the bureaucrats in Sacramento who would rather restrict the personal freedom of their constituents than make a logical compromise.
Quote from: dsred on April 12, 2008, 12:41:22 PM
Exactly. Everyone KNOWS that modified cars are ba-aa-addd.... :rolleyes:
The context is not whether modified cars are bad, it's whether the police are wrong for enforcing laws. For whatever reason CA decided they don't want cars with engines that pollute more or whatever the reason. A representative body enacted the laws. It's the responsibility of the public to follow the law and the police to enforce it. When one decides to break the law you would think that they are acknowledging the possibility of punishment.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on April 12, 2008, 12:58:19 PM
I'd blame the bureaucrats in Sacramento who would rather restrict the personal freedom of their constituents than make a logical compromise.
Get over it, already. I stayed out of the controversy of that thread, but I can't stay silent anymore. The bulk of the folks who have these types of cars drive recklessly and without regard for any other motorists. Going fast on the highway is fine, but swerving to beat people to be first after a red light, narrowly missing other cars during lane changes to get ahead and following too closely are all things these "enthusiasts" do almost every time I see them.
I say "GOOD JOB" to the police who finally cracked down on this crew. I really believe it made the road safer by getting these people to comply with the laws that are there for a GOOD reason. They all deserved what they got.
Now, flame me, trash me, whatever. But there's a fine line between "enthusiast" and "asshole" that most of the people like those the Riverside police cited cross far too often.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 12, 2008, 01:04:36 PM
Get over it, already. I stayed out of the controversy of that thread, but I can't stay silent anymore. The bulk of the folks who have these types of cars drive recklessly and without regard for any other motorists. Going fast on the highway is fine, but swerving to beat people to be first after a red light, narrowly missing other cars during lane changes to get ahead and following too closely are all things these "enthusiasts" do almost every time I see them.
I say "GOOD JOB" to the police who finally cracked down on this crew. I really believe it made the road safer by getting these people to comply with the laws that are there for a GOOD reason. They all deserved what they got.
Now, flame me, trash me, whatever. But there's a fine line between "enthusiast" and "asshole" that most of the people like those the Riverside police cited cross far too often.
I don't understand where you're coming from here. I was never a police basher and I have never street raced before. Am I a dangerous driver for not using CARB approved parts and doing an engine swap on my Z?
As someone who does not enjoy working on cars and just drives modern bone-stock cars, you cannot appreciate the bureaucracy and stupidity of these car laws.
So you want to keep gross polluters off the road, so be it. You simply say that passenger vehicles can only release "X amount of C0, NOx gases, etc.". It shouldn't matter what parts you use to get to that point, simply that what comes out of the tailpipe meets the minimum standard.
The lawmakers should drop all of this fire and brimstone "EVERY SINGLE NUT AND BOLT MUST BE CARB APPROVED OR ELSE YOUR CAR WILL BE CRUSHED AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ALL OF ETERNITY" bullshit and use their brains.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 12, 2008, 01:04:36 PM
Get over it, already. I stayed out of the controversy of that thread, but I can't stay silent anymore. The bulk of the folks who have these types of cars drive recklessly and without regard for any other motorists. Going fast on the highway is fine, but swerving to beat people to be first after a red light, narrowly missing other cars during lane changes to get ahead and following too closely are all things these "enthusiasts" do almost every time I see them.
I say "GOOD JOB" to the police who finally cracked down on this crew. I really believe it made the road safer by getting these people to comply with the laws that are there for a GOOD reason. They all deserved what they got.
Now, flame me, trash me, whatever. But there's a fine line between "enthusiast" and "asshole" that most of the people like those the Riverside police cited cross far too often.
I was lead to believe that this was a random gathering of guys showing off thier cars.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on April 12, 2008, 01:14:57 PM
I don't understand where you're coming from here. I was never a police basher and I have never street raced before. Am I a dangerous driver for not using CARB approved parts and doing an engine swap on my Z?
As someone who does not enjoy working on cars and just drives modern bone-stock cars, you cannot appreciate the bureaucracy and stupidity of these car laws.
So you want to keep gross polluters off the road, so be it. You simply say that passenger vehicles can only release "X amount of C0, NOx gases, etc.". It shouldn't matter what parts you use to get to that point, simply that what comes out of the tailpipe meets the minimum standard.
They should drop all of this fire and brimstone "EVERY SINGLE NUT AND BOLT MUST BE CARB APPROVED OR ELSE YOUR CAR WILL BE CRUSHED AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ALL OF ETERNITY" bullshit and use their brains.
+1 Doesn't California test emmissions yearly?
Quote from: gotta-qik-z28 on April 12, 2008, 01:16:59 PM
I was lead to believe that this was a random gathering of guys showing off thier cars.
If I had to guess, the police knew there were plans race at that gathering among other things. Many of these groups post on public websites and
ahem police monitor them.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 12, 2008, 01:04:36 PM
Get over it, already. I stayed out of the controversy of that thread, but I can't stay silent anymore. The bulk of the folks who have these types of cars drive recklessly and without regard for any other motorists. Going fast on the highway is fine, but swerving to beat people to be first after a red light, narrowly missing other cars during lane changes to get ahead and following too closely are all things these "enthusiasts" do almost every time I see them.
I say "GOOD JOB" to the police who finally cracked down on this crew. I really believe it made the road safer by getting these people to comply with the laws that are there for a GOOD reason. They all deserved what they got.
Now, flame me, trash me, whatever. But there's a fine line between "enthusiast" and "asshole" that most of the people like those the Riverside police cited cross far too often.
You're right about streetracers. They deserve to be cracked down upon.
The media may have one believe that this gathering in Riverside was just innocent, but I wouldn't rush to believe that. There's always a part of the story that they leave out. Police these days aren't going out of their way looking for bad publicity, so I would guess they had information about the nature of the gathering, as well as lots of complaints about what has transpired from these gatherings in the past.
Quote from: gotta-qik-z28 on April 12, 2008, 01:19:27 PM
+1 Doesn't California test emmissions yearly?
Most people who skirt those laws keep the original parts and use them when they get it inspected.
Quote from: dsred on April 12, 2008, 10:14:01 AM
Dazzleman's post above is an example of extreme irony, kids.....
You're so very clever. :praise:
Quote from: Catman on April 12, 2008, 01:32:50 PM
Most people who skirt those laws keep the original parts and use them when they get it inspected.
Yeah. A friend of mine does that here.
Quote from: Catman on April 12, 2008, 01:32:50 PM
Most people who skirt those laws keep the original parts and use them when they get it inspected.
The nice part about old muscle cars - you don't get checked for smog/emissions (at least, it's a lot less strict) :praise:
Quote from: dsred on April 12, 2008, 12:41:22 PM
Exactly. Everyone KNOWS that modified cars are ba-aa-addd.... :rolleyes:
What does it matter whether they know or not? It's my responsibility as a motor vehicle operator to know and understand the law, not the LEOs job to politely let me in on the secret when I break it.
Oh, and you missed my point anyway; I enjoy modifying cars, and in fact I plan on performing some illegal modifications. But I sure as hell am not going to piss and moan about it when I get caught. ;)
Quote from: R-inge on April 12, 2008, 03:10:23 PM
What does it matter whether they know or not? It's my responsibility as a motor vehicle operator to know and understand the law, not the LEOs job to politely let me in on the secret when I break it.
Oh, and you missed my point anyway; I enjoy modifying cars, and in fact I plan on performing some illegal modifications. But I sure as hell am not going to piss and moan about it when I get caught. ;)
I quoted your post because it was last but my point is more directed at Catman and his "support the law because it's the law" nanny state train of thought.
Frankly, people that can't see the slippery slope we're on are ostriches.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 12, 2008, 01:04:36 PM
Get over it, already. I stayed out of the controversy of that thread, but I can't stay silent anymore. The bulk of the folks who have these types of cars drive recklessly and without regard for any other motorists. Going fast on the highway is fine, but swerving to beat people to be first after a red light, narrowly missing other cars during lane changes to get ahead and following too closely are all things these "enthusiasts" do almost every time I see them.
I say "GOOD JOB" to the police who finally cracked down on this crew. I really believe it made the road safer by getting these people to comply with the laws that are there for a GOOD reason. They all deserved what they got.
Now, flame me, trash me, whatever. But there's a fine line between "enthusiast" and "asshole" that most of the people like those the Riverside police cited cross far too often.
Are you saying it's hard for me to drive like a jackass in a stock car? :huh:
I guess those powerful sports cars should be banned too. In fact, every car that can go over 65 mph should be banned because we can all drive recklessly in any current car, right?
Quote from: TurboDan on April 12, 2008, 01:04:36 PM
Get over it, already. I stayed out of the controversy of that thread, but I can't stay silent anymore. The bulk of the folks who have these types of cars drive recklessly and without regard for any other motorists. Going fast on the highway is fine, but swerving to beat people to be first after a red light, narrowly missing other cars during lane changes to get ahead and following too closely are all things these "enthusiasts" do almost every time I see them.
I say "GOOD JOB" to the police who finally cracked down on this crew. I really believe it made the road safer by getting these people to comply with the laws that are there for a GOOD reason. They all deserved what they got.
Now, flame me, trash me, whatever. But there's a fine line between "enthusiast" and "asshole" that most of the people like those the Riverside police cited cross far too often.
This was the jist of my argument in the other thread, and I think it still clearly applies here:
Doing busts like these is going to do nothing but discourage gatherings like the one it targetted. it's not going to make an iota of difference in street racing, aggressive driving, reckless behavior, or bad taste.
If you want to stop street racng; you need to catch people street racing and prosecute them so severely that people get the message. Hanging out in a parking may be being a nuisance, but it's not street racing; and not by a long shot.
Quote from: Catman on April 12, 2008, 10:32:53 AM
You are missing something. Perhaps if the post here included....
FUCK HOME SCHOOLERS FUCK HOME SCHOOLERS FUCK HOME SCHOOLERS
You've gotten huffy when some people here have criticized home schooling in general. But, since you fell into that category you felt you needed to defend the stereotyping going on. Whould you have felt better if they came back and said that they had meant "Idiana Home Schoolers" and not Texas?
I'd have felt better if there talking about one specific family or association of homeschoolers. That is what is going on here. Yes, Nicks first post was too general, but who actually takes him seriously anyway? Upon first reading it I thought it was just sarcastic, the follow up posts made it clear that that wasn't the case, but it also made it clear his issue was with police who behave in this manner.
Quote
Regarding the police article there was no other POV presented because the story was taken from an enthusiast web site. They don't care what the police intent was.
I am aware of that, the burden is on the opposing side (LEOs in this case) to provide an alternate POV.
Quote
Modified engines and racing are illegal in CA. I guess the police should not enforce the law because you like cars. :rolleyes:
And the other article enforces that they had pretty good reasons for impounding the vehicles, the original article didn't state that.
Also, rereading the article (and somehow I missed the second article in the thread, it still doesn't go into much depth though), shouldn't car owners have the right to tell the police no to an unwarranted/not required inspection?
Nick's first post was the lyrics of a song...
Quote from: TBR on April 12, 2008, 10:59:13 PM
Also, rereading the article (and somehow I missed the second article in the thread, it still doesn't go into much depth though), shouldn't car owners have the right to tell the police no to an unwarranted/not required inspection?
I think that may be a provision of the law specific to California.
Quote from: TBR on April 12, 2008, 10:49:58 PMI am aware of that, the burden is on the opposing side (LEOs in this case) to provide an alternate POV.
You're forgetting the LE has to follow certain rules about the release of information regarding pending prosecution. The evidence collected by LE during any case is collected for the sole purpose of prosecuting a crime in a court of law, not to inform the public of that information. LE will not release information that may jeopardize a case just because the media or the public wants to know what happened. Also, most departments have very strict policies against individual officers releasing information to the media. So, while those people who are being prosecuted love to talk to the media, only specific LEO's can release only specific information. Needless to say, the story from the people being "victimized" as these kinds of busts makes for much better (ie, more sensational) news.
Quote from: thecarnut on April 12, 2008, 10:59:50 PM
Nick's first post was the lyrics of a song...
Reading his Unthusiast post, I actually kinda agree with him.
Unthusiast post?
Quote from: TBR on April 12, 2008, 10:59:13 PM
Also, rereading the article (and somehow I missed the second article in the thread, it still doesn't go into much depth though), shouldn't car owners have the right to tell the police no to an unwarranted/not required inspection?
A search and an inspection are really two different things when in this context. Even a search doesn't often require a warrant under the automobile exception rule.
Quote from: thecarnut on April 12, 2008, 10:59:50 PM
Nick's first post was the lyrics of a song...
Aren't the actual lyrics "FUCK DA POLICE"?
Correct me if I'm wrong. :lol:
Quote from: Lazerous on April 13, 2008, 10:23:11 AM
Aren't the actual lyrics "FUCK DA POLICE"?
Correct me if I'm wrong. :lol:
I think that's a different song.
He showed me the lyrics of the song he quoted, and that's how it goes.
Quote from: bing_oh on April 12, 2008, 11:41:47 PM
You're forgetting the LE has to follow certain rules about the release of information regarding pending prosecution. The evidence collected by LE during any case is collected for the sole purpose of prosecuting a crime in a court of law, not to inform the public of that information. LE will not release information that may jeopardize a case just because the media or the public wants to know what happened. Also, most departments have very strict policies against individual officers releasing information to the media. So, while those people who are being prosecuted love to talk to the media, only specific LEO's can release only specific information. Needless to say, the story from the people being "victimized" as these kinds of busts makes for much better (ie, more sensational) news.
I was talking about the LEOs on this board.
Here's a little more fuel to the fire:
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read/4/1917304
It seems an old Z failed the emissions test because the inspector couldn't read the timing marks. Stuff like this happens everyday in California.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on April 13, 2008, 03:33:19 PM
Here's a little more fuel to the fire:
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read/4/1917304
It seems an old Z failed the emissions test because the inspector couldn't read the timing marks. Stuff like this happens everyday in California.
Wait, so if a car fails the smog tests in California, the state will buy it for $1000 and crush it?
You know what this sounds like? A gold mine for anybody with a car carrier and access to a yard full of $200 beaters!
Quote from: thecarnut on April 13, 2008, 10:28:18 AM
I think that's a different song.
He showed me the lyrics of the song he quoted, and that's how it goes.
Was it by NWA?
Quote from: Tave on April 13, 2008, 08:07:51 PM
Was it by NWA?
I think so.
What's the difference between the NWA one and the Rage against the Machine one?
Quote from: thecarnut on April 13, 2008, 08:15:28 PM
I think so.
What's the difference between the NWA one and the Rage against the Machine one?
Nothing. I've only heard the chorus "Fuck tha Police."
Quote from: TBR on April 13, 2008, 11:07:39 AM
I was talking about the LEOs on this board.
I thought that's what I did...:huh:
To be fair, I bash a lot of groups of people, not just cops. Accountants, for one, movie ticket takers, and others.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=14180.msg804623#msg804623 date=1208220344
To be fair, I bash a lot of groups of people, not just cops. Accountants, for one, movie ticket takers, and others.
Don't forget the elderly. :heated:
Quote from: Catman on April 14, 2008, 07:04:48 PM
Don't forget the elderly. :heated:
And BMW drivers.
Quote from: TurboDan on April 12, 2008, 01:04:36 PM
Get over it, already. I stayed out of the controversy of that thread, but I can't stay silent anymore. The bulk of the folks who have these types of cars drive recklessly and without regard for any other motorists. Going fast on the highway is fine, but swerving to beat people to be first after a red light, narrowly missing other cars during lane changes to get ahead and following too closely are all things these "enthusiasts" do almost every time I see them.
I say "GOOD JOB" to the police who finally cracked down on this crew. I really believe it made the road safer by getting these people to comply with the laws that are there for a GOOD reason. They all deserved what they got.
Now, flame me, trash me, whatever. But there's a fine line between "enthusiast" and "asshole" that most of the people like those the Riverside police cited cross far too often.
ok, I'll flame you for being an ignorant anti-car asshole. You don't have a freaking CLUE about hobbyists and what they are going through mnationwide. People in California who mod their cars to race at sanctioned SCCA autocrosses are getting their cars confiscated by people that think like you and these cops and legislators do: modding cars is ONLY done for street racing. And that's BULLSHIT of the stinkiest order.
(http://charmcityracing.net/What%20is%20autocross%20pic%205.jpg)
You know, I had a page of things I wanted to say right now. But I'm too fucking pissed at people like you to even want to type this out anymore.
(http://www.raceindustry.com/ART/MIGI/100484_A_2005Solo2SouthBilstein-web.jpg)
I've spent decades building customs, race cars, and modified cars for show and track. I've been involved in the "scene" from the days of the cruis nights to the modern gatherings of enthusiasts. the number of people who stret race are a SMALL fucking percentage of the enthusiast crowd. But they are not the only ones being targetted. People like you say that EVERYONE should be targetted BEFORE they are proven to be street racers. You support this sort of BULLSHIT enforcement of BULLSHIT laws, so you can sleep better at night knowing that car enthusiasts are being targetted.
(http://69.108.208.137/ryang/drive/autocross/autocross.jpg)
Quote from: ChrisV on April 15, 2008, 07:03:54 AM
ok, I'll flame you for being an ignorant anti-car asshole..... You support this sort of BULLSHIT enforcement of BULLSHIT laws, so you can sleep better at night knowing that car enthusiasts are being targetted.
Well, this thread just took an interesting turn.
:popcorn:
Quote from: Byteme on April 15, 2008, 07:20:18 AM
Well, this thread just took an interesting turn.
:popcorn:
He's right, you know.
Quote from: NomisR on April 15, 2008, 09:06:55 AM
:popcorn:
Now is a good time to be banned anyway. You ain't cool unless you've been banned.
If we start banning more people, there wouldn't be many left in the forum.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on April 15, 2008, 08:54:48 AM
He's right, you know.
+1
For once I agree with ChrisV.
That was an excellent p0st. People who support the police and say that car modders should have their cars confiscated is an unthusiast.
I think I've had enough listening to this crap. If people can't say their piece in a civil manner then lets not say it at all. Locked.