Saw a lady this morning standing outside her Matrix on the side of the road on her phone looking at the car. I noticed the chunky snow tires at about the same time I noticed that she had cleared the curb with all 4 of them.
Granted this is a fairly tight corner on a downhill, but I made it on Goodyear all-seasons that have pretty shitty wet weather grip lately.
What's going to happen when it actually freezes?
I prompt the question because the topic of making snows a requirement has come up from time to time here (law in Quebec), and it always pisses me off. I've never had snows and have driven through some pretty miserable shit and always made it home in one piece.
I guess I'm not really surprised that they wouldn't focus on the root cause, poor drivers, but I needed to rant.
Winter tires are law in BC too and I like the law. Too many dumbasses try to navigate our high mountain passes on all-seasons and end up causing huge accidents. Our highway accident rates have dropped dramatically since the law came into effect. Your tires are the only thing connecting you to the road, and I have no idea why people think tires don't matter.
Dedicated snow tires are borderline dangerous on wet pavement so no surprise there.
The consequences for poor driving are so lax that laws like this are inevitable.
Some of it is poor driving sure but dedicated snows offer a HUGE advantage in snow and ice. A moderate portion of "good driving" is recognizing the need for proper equipment.
I can see not having winter tires in areas like Vancouver or Seattle or Portland, but in areas that actually get snow and/or sub-freezing temperatures all winter and not just every couple years, snow tires should be mandatory.
A lot of times, it's not about the tires...it's the driver's ability.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 01, 2012, 08:06:26 AM
Winter tires are law in BC too and I like the law. Too many dumbasses try to navigate our high mountain passes on all-seasons and end up causing huge accidents. Our highway accident rates have dropped dramatically since the law came into effect. Your tires are the only thing connecting you to the road, and I have no idea why people think tires don't matter.
I'm not suggesting that tires don't matter, rather that a dumbass is a dumbass no matter what tires are on his/her car. I have a buddy that swears by the things, maybe I would too if we actually had winters here, but its difficult to argue the fact that I've never had any trouble driving on all-seasons, I've just gone slower.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 01, 2012, 10:50:21 AM
A lot of times, it's not about the tires...it's the driver's ability.
You live in Ontario. You get lots of snow and cold weather. Winter tires would benefit you a great deal. I used to think the same way until I actually was forced into buying them because my car had summer tires. That first winter with proper snow tires was all the convincing I needed.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 01, 2012, 10:50:21 AM
A lot of times, it's not about the tires...it's the driver's ability.
Sure, but why would you purposefully put yourself at a huge disadvantage by not having winter tires?
Quote from: SVT666 on November 01, 2012, 12:14:14 PM
You live in Ontario. You get lots of snow and cold weather. Winter tires would benefit you a great deal. I used to think the same way until I actually was forced into buying them because my car had summer tires. That first winter with proper snow tires was all the convincing I needed.
I live in Ontario, as well (Ottawa, but grew up in Toronto).
I never had snow tires until last year. And, the only reason I have them is that a pal had an extra set and I took them off his hands. With decent all-season tires, you can cope quite well.
When the current set wear out, I doubt I'll replace them.
Sorry, I just think that's fucking stupid. Winter tires provide massive improvements in braking and traction, not just on snow or ice, but also on dry pavement that is below freezing. One thing you guys get in Ontario is really cold temperatures and winter tires dramatically improve performance. All-Seasons get worse the colder it gets regardless of ice or snow.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 01, 2012, 01:11:39 PM
Sorry, I just think that's fucking stupid. Winter tires provide massive improvements in braking and traction, not just on snow or ice, but also on dry pavement that is below freezing. One thing you guys get in Ontario is really cold temperatures and winter tires dramatically improve performance. All-Seasons get worse the colder it gets regardless of ice or snow.
Well, thank fuck you're not an MPP in Ontario. ;)
I'm not suggesting specialized equipment doesn't work better for the circumstance, for which, it was designed, but I'm not prepared to be legislatively told to purchase a product I might have a proper use 11 days a year (keep in mind the roads are salted tae fuck 'round here and nothing short of metal studs works on ice).
Quote from: GoCougs on November 01, 2012, 09:33:37 AM
Dedicated snow tires are borderline dangerous on wet pavement so no surprise there.
The consequences for poor driving are so lax that laws like this are inevitable.
Some of it is poor driving sure but dedicated snows offer a HUGE advantage in snow and ice. A moderate portion of "good driving" is recognizing the need for proper equipment.
I have Continental ExtremeWinterContacts and they are fine for dry and wet driving. Sure, I wouldn't run them at Road America on an 80 degree day, but they are a huge advantage in the winter months. The softer compound compensates for below freezing temps.
Quote from: Habitual Speeder on November 01, 2012, 01:27:36 PM
Well, thank fuck you're not an MPP in Ontario. ;)
I'm not suggesting specialized equipment doesn't work better for the circumstance, for which, it was designed, but I'm not prepared to be legislatively told to purchase a product I might have a proper use 11 days a year (keep in mind the roads are salted tae fuck 'round here and nothing short of metal studs works on ice).
11 days a year? Whatever man. That's BS and you know it. Ottawa has no less than 3 months where the average daily high is well below freezing. The temperature alone affects the performance of your tires, and all-seasons start suffering quite badly once the temperature gets below freezing...salt or not. Ottawa also receives an average of 92" of snow over 60-70 days every year. So 11 days, my ass.
It's people with your thought process that make me glad our government legislated winter tires for our highways. Our winter accident rates have dropped dramatically since the legislation came into effect.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 01, 2012, 01:47:38 PM
11 days a year? Whatever man. That's BS and you know it. Ottawa has no less than 3 months where the average daily high is well below freezing. The temperature alone affects the performance of your tires, and all-seasons start suffering quite badly once the temperature gets below freezing...salt or not. Ottawa also receives an average of 92" of snow over 60-70 days every year. So 11 days, my ass.
It's people with your thought process that make me glad our government legislated winter tires for our highways. Our winter accident rates have dropped dramatically since the legislation came into effect.
It's funny: I just typed out a lengthy response and I realized I can't be bothered, so, I erased it.
You buy the accessories you let your local government force on you, and I'll fight to ensure this province isn't as daft. Sadly, Ontario might not listen to me...
Quote from: Habitual Speeder on November 01, 2012, 02:28:03 PM
It's funny: I just typed out a lengthy response and I realized I can't be bothered, so, I erased it.
You buy the accessories you let your local government force on you, and I'll fight to ensure this province isn't as daft. Sadly, Ontario might not listen to me...
I was buying winter tires a long time before I was ever forced to because it's the smart thing to do. Ontario has some of the dumbest traffic and highway legislation in the country, so if they mandate winter tires, it will be one of the first smart things they have ever done.
I don't think it could ever happen in Michigan. Someone who works at a factory for $8.75 an hour barely gives a shit about life.
They sure as hell don't care about their rusted piece of shit '87 Regal. They don't have money for snow tires. They don't even have money for regular tires.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on November 01, 2012, 02:51:02 PM
I don't think it could ever happen in Michigan. Someone who works at a factory for $8.75 an hour barely gives a shit about life.
They sure as hell don't care about their rusted piece of shit '87 Regal. They don't have money for snow tires. They don't even have money for regular tires.
In Quebec, I believe the law is that winter tires are mandatory everywhere, but here in BC the law is that winter tires are mandatory on highways. Almost all of our highways go through or over mountain ranges in BC so you're an idiot to travel those roads without winter tires anyway.
Winter Tires are generally better at tempretures below 7 deg Celsius. Not all winter tires are optimized for deep snow. Many work well on dry, wet, or roads with only think layers of snow.
Take the Michelin Alpin PA2 for example.
(http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/images/tyres/Michelin-Pilot-Alpin-PA2.jpg)
Quote from: SVT666 on November 01, 2012, 12:14:14 PM
You live in Ontario. You get lots of snow and cold weather. Winter tires would benefit you a great deal. I used to think the same way until I actually was forced into buying them because my car had summer tires. That first winter with proper snow tires was all the convincing I needed.
What?? I live in Michigan. :confused:
I don't have winter tires because I can't afford them. My parents have winter tires and they're great.
My point is that people try too often to drive beyond the limits of their tires. It's often user error, not the tire. The tire performed as well as it possibly could but the driver was too inexperienced to realize that limit.
I wish I could have winter tires.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 01, 2012, 04:33:11 PM
What?? I live in Michigan. :confused:
I don't have winter tires because I can't afford them. My parents have winter tires and they're great.
My point is that people try too often to drive beyond the limits of their tires. It's often user error, not the tire. The tire performed as well as it possibly could but the driver was too inexperienced to realize that limit.
I wish I could have winter tires.
Sorry dude. I quoted the wrong post. :lol:
Quote from: SVT666 on November 01, 2012, 01:11:39 PM
Sorry, I just think that's fucking stupid. Winter tires provide massive improvements in braking and traction, not just on snow or ice, but also on dry pavement that is below freezing. One thing you guys get in Ontario is really cold temperatures and winter tires dramatically improve performance. All-Seasons get worse the colder it gets regardless of ice or snow.
That's, pretty much, true. Especially for an inexperienced or marginal driver. I make sure that the snows are on my wife's car before the first snowfall. That's, usually, the most dangerous one.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 01, 2012, 10:50:21 AM
A lot of times, it's not about the tires...it's the driver's ability.
100% of the time you can outrun your talent level, and grip, if you drive like a coked-out squirrel.
Snows a great, but they don't mean you can continue to text and be a retard when it's slick out.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 01, 2012, 09:33:37 AM
Dedicated snow tires are borderline dangerous on wet pavement so no surprise there.
The consequences for poor driving are so lax that laws like this are inevitable.
Some of it is poor driving sure but dedicated snows offer a HUGE advantage in snow and ice. A moderate portion of "good driving" is recognizing the need for proper equipment.
When the ambient temps drop below a certain temp, all-seasons and summer tires are rock-hard. Winter tires remain pliable.
It's foolish to say that snow tires on all vehicles in the snow would not prevent accidents.
No, I'd say it's completely accurate. you couldn't state that it prevents *all* accidents, but it does prevent some. I watched 2 out of an eventual total of 7 cars slide off the road on the same 100yd stretch, and I passed through at the speed limit without issues. Tires were the only discernable difference that I could see between those two cars and my own.
Quote from: S204STi on November 01, 2012, 07:14:18 PM
if you drive like a coked-out squirrel.
Do you know about Achewood?
Quote from: SVT666 on November 01, 2012, 09:37:11 AM
I can see not having winter tires in areas like Vancouver or Seattle or Portland, but in areas that actually get snow and/or sub-freezing temperatures all winter and not just every couple years, snow tires should be mandatory.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on November 01, 2012, 09:31:38 PM
It's foolish to say that no driving in the snow would not prevent accidents.
Driving in actual winter conditions without dedicated winter tires is fucking stupid. I use studded snow tires on all three of my cars.
Quote from: Rupert on November 02, 2012, 12:08:12 AM
Do you know about Achewood?
Will have to google that.
Quote from: mzziaz on November 02, 2012, 10:00:24 AM
Driving in actual winter conditions without dedicated winter tires is fucking stupid.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: SVT666 on November 02, 2012, 10:15:20 AM
:rolleyes:
5 Chicago winters, RWD, all-season tires. Drove several times in blizzards. Never had a problem. Don't know a single person who runs two sets of tires.
I apologize for disagreeing with the assertion that we're all stupid.
Quote from: 850CSi on November 02, 2012, 10:18:51 AM
5 Chicago winters, RWD, all-season tires. Drove several times in blizzards. Never had a problem. Don't know a single person who runs two sets of tires.
I apologize for disagreeing with the assertion that we're all stupid.
Disagreeing doesn't change reality.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 02, 2012, 10:23:09 AM
Disagreeing doesn't change reality.
Hope the horse you rode in on has snow hooves
Quote from: 850CSi on November 02, 2012, 10:24:23 AM
Hope the horse you rode in on has snow hooves
I'm allergic to horses.
Quote from: 850CSi on November 02, 2012, 10:18:51 AM
5 Chicago winters, RWD, all-season tires. Drove several times in blizzards. Never had a problem. Don't know a single person who runs two sets of tires.
I apologize for disagreeing with the assertion that we're all stupid.
You know what, why don't you rip out the seatbelts on the car too, while you're at it. I'm sure you haven't needed those the last five years either.
Quote from: mzziaz on November 02, 2012, 11:05:57 AM
You know what, why don't you rip out the seatbelts on the car too, while you're at it. I'm sure you haven't needed those the last five years either.
You're actually comparing using all-season tires in the winter to driving without a seatbelt?
Are you serious, or am I getting trolled?
FWIW, my dad has never purchased dedicated snows for his last two vehicles, but he does run fairly aggressive A/T tires. He's never been off the road or wrecked in the snow.
He has also performed some impressive driving feats on snow-covered passes on worn all-seasons on our old Geo Prizm.
Driver skill is of first priority. Then tires, but the tires are a huge deal IMO, and I prefer to have the best available grip.
Quote from: S204STi on November 02, 2012, 10:02:28 AM
Will have to google that.
There's a coked out squirrel.
Not buying these "never had a problem" declarations...
Quote from: GoCougs on November 02, 2012, 12:53:37 PM
Not buying these "never had a problem" declarations...
I've never had a problem in FWD or RWD on all seasons. Of course, that depends on how you define problem. I got stuck twice in the Passat trying to ram snowbanks, but that's my fault, not the tires. I'm not saying that it wasn't more work on all seasons, but it's easily doable--I'd say the VAST majority of drivers run all seasons all year round and don't ever have serious issues.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 02, 2012, 12:53:37 PM
Not buying these "never had a problem" declarations...
I've had a RWD car with rear snows stuck in the deep stuff (off the edge of my 'rents groomed driveway in the mountains). That was driver error. Other than that, I drove it successfully in the snow for a season without issue.
Quote from: 850CSi on November 02, 2012, 10:18:51 AM
5 Chicago winters, RWD, all-season tires. Drove several times in blizzards. Never had a problem. Don't know a single person who runs two sets of tires.
I apologize for disagreeing with the assertion that we're all stupid.
Did the same, except replace "Chicago" with "Syracuse" (much snowier). Oh, and my RWD car didn't have any driver aids (ABS/TCS/ESP).
Quote from: GoCougs on November 02, 2012, 12:53:37 PM
Not buying these "never had a problem" declarations...
Whats not to buy?
I have as a fact never had a problem without having dedicated snows during my entire driving career. I've gotten stuck all of twice and it was because the snow was so deep the car got high sided on it. My closest incident was solely due to my stupidity.
I've even driven through a blizzard on worn out all-seasons that had little right to be used on a summers day without issue, I just drove ridiculously slow.
It seems the pro-snow crowd here are suggesting that a car will instantly swirl into a 360 the instant its all-season tires touch a surface near freezing.
Quote from: MX793 on November 02, 2012, 03:47:35 PM
Did the same, except replace "Chicago" with "Syracuse" (much snowier). Oh, and my RWD car didn't have any driver aids (ABS/TCS/ESP).
Quote from: VTEC_Inside on November 02, 2012, 07:27:44 PM
It seems the pro-snow crowd here are suggesting that a car will instantly swirl into a 360 the instant its all-season tires touch a surface near freezing.
Nah bros you guys are
per se stupid for driving without winter tires/seat belts.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 02, 2012, 12:53:37 PM
Not buying these "never had a problem" declarations...
If you look for the problems and avoid them, its not that hard to believe.
Have I ever really gotten in trouble driving with poor tires in the snow? No. But, I've also adjusted my driving accordingly, and sometimes avoided areas altogether that I wouldn't have to if i'd had the proper equipment.
On the other hand, driving in the snow would be faster, easier, and wholly better with snows, and it's pretty hard to deny that.
[/stirthepotSPIN]
Quote from: Rupert on November 02, 2012, 10:49:04 PM
On the other hand, driving in the snow would be faster, easier, and wholly better with snows, and it's pretty hard to deny that.
[/stirthepotSPIN]
On the other hand, I once spent a couple of weeks driving a car around with one working brake; and never got into any trouble doing that either!
Quote from: Rupert on November 02, 2012, 10:49:04 PM
On the other hand, driving in the snow would be faster, easier, and wholly better with snows, and it's pretty hard to deny that.
[/stirthepotSPIN]
On the other hand, not faster, easier, and wholly better enough to justify the assertion that not having two sets of tires = stupid . . . unless you live in Alaska.
Stupid
Impressed with all the testosterone-laden "I don't need no stinkin' snow tires meself, a REAL driver doesn't need that shit." going on here.
Everything about driving is managing traction on your 4 contact patches. Said traction is incredibly better on snow tires on snow vs all-seasons on snow. Why would anyone not want that added margin in a place with significant snow every year is beyond me.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 03, 2012, 10:41:38 AM
Impressed with all the testosterone-laden "I don't need no stinkin' snow tires meself, a REAL driver doesn't need that shit." going on here.
Everything about driving is managing traction on your 4 contact patches. Said traction is incredibly better on snow tires on snow vs all-seasons on snow. Why would anyone not want that added margin in a place with significant snow every year is beyond me.
:lol: Very true.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 03, 2012, 10:41:38 AM
Impressed with all the testosterone-laden "I don't need no stinkin' snow tires meself, a REAL driver doesn't need that shit." going on here.
Everything about driving is managing traction on your 4 contact patches. Said traction is incredibly better on snow tires on snow vs all-seasons on snow. Why would anyone not want that added margin in a place with significant snow every year is beyond me.
Simply for the challenge. :praise:
Mandating winter tires is fucking stupid. First of all, you can't predict when it snows. I've seen snow well into May back in my home province. Here in SoOntario, I pushed 3-4" of snow off my driveway 3 whole times last year, and we didn't have much more than 11 days of sub-zero temperatures. Secondly, snow tires and rims cost at least $1000/set. Mandating winter tires forces people to buy bald winter tires off Kijiji... tires that are far more dangerous than the all-seasons that were on their car. All in the name of a stupid provincial law. Lastly, many new all-season tires, like the Hankook Optimo 4S, are even better than many winter tires. Any way you cut it, Craig, BC can keep its communism ICBC, its carbon tax, and its stupid winter tire law. Remember, I lived there 6 years and my wife is from there, so I'm well aware of how such a beautiful place can be so ass-backward.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 03, 2012, 01:23:19 PM
Mandating winter tires is fucking stupid. First of all, you can't predict when it snows. I've seen snow well into May back in my home province. Here in SoOntario, I pushed 3-4" of snow off my driveway 3 whole times last year, and we didn't have much more than 11 days of sub-zero temperatures. Secondly, snow tires and rims cost at least $1000/set. Mandating winter tires forces people to buy bald winter tires off Kijiji... tires that are far more dangerous than the all-seasons that were on their car. All in the name of a stupid provincial law. Lastly, many new all-season tires, like the Hankook Optimo 4S, are even better than many winter tires. Any way you cut it, Craig, BC can keep its communism ICBC, its carbon tax, and its stupid winter tire law. Remember, I lived there 6 years and my wife is from there, so I'm well aware of how such a beautiful place can be so ass-backward.
I agree (besides the BC part since I've never lived there). Buying shitty used tires (which is what many people can only afford) would be a terrible idea in the snow instead of just using what they already have, provided what they already have is in better condition.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 03, 2012, 02:09:38 PM
I agree (besides the BC part since I've never lived there). Buying shitty used tires (which is what many people can only afford) would be a terrible idea in the snow instead of just using what they already have, provided what they already have is in better condition.
I wouldn't be surprised if some 80% buy used over new just so they are in compliance with the law.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 03, 2012, 10:41:38 AM
Impressed with all the testosterone-laden "I don't need no stinkin' snow tires meself, a REAL driver doesn't need that shit." going on here.
I think you're misunderstanding the argument.
I think snow tires are an excellent investment. I just don't think it makes you an irresponsible stupid person to drive in the snow without them, I don't think they're remotely the same thing as seat belts, and I don't think they should be
mandatory.
Quote from: 850CSi on November 03, 2012, 03:01:37 PM
I think you're misunderstanding the argument.
I think snow tires are an excellent investment. I just don't think it makes you an irresponsible stupid person to drive in the snow without them, I don't think they're remotely the same thing as seat belts, and I don't think they should be mandatory.
Exactly the way I see it.
Quote from: 850CSi on November 03, 2012, 03:01:37 PM
I think you're misunderstanding the argument.
I think snow tires are an excellent investment. I just don't think it makes you an irresponsible stupid person to drive in the snow without them, I don't think they're remotely the same thing as seat belts, and I don't think they should be mandatory.
^This^
Quote from: 850CSi on November 03, 2012, 03:01:37 PM
I think you're misunderstanding the argument.
I think snow tires are an excellent investment. I just don't think it makes you an irresponsible stupid person to drive in the snow without them, I don't think they're remotely the same thing as seat belts, and I don't think they should be mandatory.
Got it. However, there is some line beyond which it would be irresponsible. I can't place it very well but think about this. Say for example you lived in Alaska and decided that all-seasons were fine. It would probably be as irresponsible as going on a camping trip without enough equipment for the conditions you would likely face. Can you manage with less? Possibly. Responsible. Probably not.
It is a matter of degree. If all you get are say, 10 days of snow per year I'd think all seasons are responsible. If however you get more than a month, that would probably cross that line in my opinion.
It's funny how some of the people saying they refuse to buy winter tires are also the same people who buy or would buy sticky summer rubber.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 03, 2012, 08:17:49 PM
It's funny how some of the people saying they refuse to buy winter tires are also the same people who buy or would buy sticky summer rubber.
(all seasons, all the time)
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 03, 2012, 06:43:43 PM
Got it. However, there is some line beyond which it would be irresponsible. I can't place it very well but think about this. Say for example you lived in Alaska and decided that all-seasons were fine. It would probably be as irresponsible as going on a camping trip without enough equipment for the conditions you would likely face. Can you manage with less? Possibly. Responsible. Probably not.
It is a matter of degree. If all you get are say, 10 days of snow per year I'd think all seasons are responsible. If however you get more than a month, that would probably cross that line in my opinion.
Eh there are complicating factors, it's not
that simple.
Chicago gets a fair bit of snow, but it's also an urban environment with adequate plowing and lots of salt. Illinois is also flat as a surfboard.
I probably had to drive with actual snow accumulation on the street less than 5 times a year. Slush and ice was a lot more common.
Would I go a winter in the NC mountains without snows? Fuck no. If I had a commute on rural roads in a place with Chicago-like weather? Probably not.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 03, 2012, 10:41:38 AM
Impressed with all the testosterone-laden "I don't need no stinkin' snow tires meself, a REAL driver doesn't need that shit." going on here.
Everything about driving is managing traction on your 4 contact patches. Said traction is incredibly better on snow tires on snow vs all-seasons on snow. Why would anyone not want that added margin in a place with significant snow every year is beyond me.
Nothing wrong with them. But why take on the added cost and hassle (and if you live in an apartment like I do, I don't even have a place to store them when not in use) if you've been managing fine without them?
Most of the main roads are clear within a day of snowfall. Even with snowfall, ice and cold/wet, I have never felt out of control with all seasons.
Why should I need to put snow tires on the Mazda when it only gets out of the garage anymore on nice dry days?
Quote from: 850CSi on November 02, 2012, 10:18:51 AM
5 Chicago winters, RWD, all-season tires. Drove several times in blizzards. Never had a problem. Don't know a single person who runs two sets of tires.
I apologize for disagreeing with the assertion that we're all stupid.
I run them on the Durango and on ALL of our patrol cars. Winter tires are way way better in the winter then any all season and dispute what Cougs says they are perfectly safe in all weather conditions below 60 degrees. In fact below 60 they're safer which is why several roads in the US won't even allow you on without dedicated snow tires no matter what the conditions. ;)
Several roads? Which ones? Chains or studded tires or snow tires or 4WD or AWD or some combination are frequently required in mountain passes during snow events, I know, but I've never heard of anywhere that has a snow tires only no matter what requirement.
Quote from: Rupert on November 05, 2012, 09:31:36 PM
Several roads? Which ones? Chains or studded tires or snow tires or 4WD or AWD or some combination are frequently required in mountain passes during snow events, I know, but I've never heard of anywhere that has a snow tires only no matter what requirement.
lol, he just makes things up.
(No, really? rohan?)
Quote from: Rupert on November 05, 2012, 09:31:36 PM
Several roads? Which ones? Chains or studded tires or snow tires or 4WD or AWD or some combination are frequently required in mountain passes during snow events, I know, but I've never heard of anywhere that has a snow tires only no matter what requirement.
I'm pretty sure there are some in Alaska, but since none of us live in Alaska...
Winter tires are mandated in all of Norway during the season. I believe all seasons are OK, though so it is more of a prohibition against summer tires in the winter.
Quote from: Rupert on November 05, 2012, 09:31:36 PM
Several roads? Which ones? Chains or studded tires or snow tires or 4WD or AWD or some combination are frequently required in mountain passes during snow events, I know, but I've never heard of anywhere that has a snow tires only no matter what requirement.
I accidentally left off "winter" in the conditions part. There are several roads that require dedicated snow tires no matter the conditions during winter.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 05, 2012, 10:01:31 PM
lol, he just makes things up.
Quote from: Rupert on November 05, 2012, 10:03:37 PM
(No, really? rohan?)
That's just comical coming from you two. :rolleyes:
I figured that was what you meant. Shockingly, I gave you the benefit of the doubt.
However, I'm still curious which roads these are. :huh:
Quote from: mzziaz on November 05, 2012, 11:50:40 PM
Winter tires are mandated in all of Norway during the season. I believe all seasons are OK, though so it is more of a prohibition against summer tires in the winter.
I can see that. That makes more sense.
Quote from: Rupert on November 06, 2012, 09:37:03 PM
I figured that was what you meant. Shockingly, I gave you the benefit of the doubt.
However, I'm still curious which roads these are. :huh:
I'm not in the US, but there is a road just 5 minutes from my house that mandates chains or dedicated winter tires between November and March. There are several roads like that around here. I will take a picture of the sign the next time I go that way. Since I can't drive right now, I probably won't be going that way for about 4 or 5 weeks.
We've always gotten 2-3 days of snow per year here (none last year) so I have no experience with this. In the northern part of NJ they get a lot more snow and I think some people buy chains, etc.
That said, do these tires give you better traction on just snow, or snow and ice too? And what's the benefits of studded vs non-studded?
Quote from: TurboDan on November 07, 2012, 07:41:27 PM
We've always gotten 2-3 days of snow per year here (none last year) so I have no experience with this. In the northern part of NJ they get a lot more snow and I think some people buy chains, etc.
That said, do these tires give you better traction on just snow, or snow and ice too? And what's the benefits of studded vs non-studded?
Studded tires will be better on ice, but they tend to skate a bit on bare pavement. On ice, you really need either studs or chains. All-rubber snows aren't going to be appreciably better than all-seasons.
Quote from: MX793 on November 07, 2012, 07:48:27 PM
Studded tires will be better on ice, but they tend to skate a bit on bare pavement. On ice, you really need either studs or chains. All-rubber snows aren't going to be appreciably better than all-seasons.
They will be, but ice is ice. There are tires that are designed for ice use that are noticeably better on ice than even winter specific tires, but studs and chains reign king on ice. When I was in Calgary, ice was a big problem because they had a lot of "Chinooks" (warm winds warm the area and then the area freezes when the winds stop). I had winter tires that were more ice oriented and they made a big difference, but still not ideal compared to studs.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 07, 2012, 10:13:14 AM
I'm not in the US, but there is a road just 5 minutes from my house that mandates chains or dedicated winter tires between November and March. There are several roads like that around here. I will take a picture of the sign the next time I go that way. Since I can't drive right now, I probably won't be going that way for about 4 or 5 weeks.
Yes, but he specified snow tires, not snow tires/chains/4WD, etc. in addition to being in the U.S.
I'll get a chance to put these to use this weekend, it sounds like.
I've done numerous snow-drives without them, but with tires as wide as mine, snow/ice rubber makes sense.
All our highways are covered in snow as of this morning. The news is calling the conditions "treacherous".
I forget how laughably narrow the treads were on my first Subaru. I forget the size... like 165/55r14 or something like that. Even the crappiest all-seasons were fine in most conditions.
Quote from: S204STi on November 09, 2012, 12:39:59 PM
I forget how laughably narrow the treads were on my first Subaru. I forget the size... like 165/55r14 or something like that. Even the crappiest all-seasons were fine in most conditions.
I think my Passat was 195/
65/15 and I thought those were really narrow.
Quote from: Raza on November 09, 2012, 01:25:58 PM
I think my Passat was 195/55/15 and I thought those were really narrow.
My 240SX was I think 195/60R15. Factor in vehicle weight, and the Mustang has more pounds per mm of tire width than my 240SX did. I'd need 245s to be comparable.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=28310.msg1805908#msg1805908 date=1352492758
I think my Passat was 195/55/15 and I thought those were really narrow.
That's crazy. My Yaris wears 185/55/15's, and it's a class size down.
It has been snowing here for a few days, the roads are sloppy, it's -17 ?c/1 ?F, and I don't have snow/winter tires. These are just about the worst winter driving conditions this city experiences in a given winter. I have no problem getting around. I have not been a danger to my fellow motorists. The winter weather is so variable here, vacillating between bitterly cold and pleasantly warm, between wet snow and desert-like aridness, that I don't see the point in buying winter tires. More than half the winter they'd be used on relatively warm dry pavement. I'd wear them out.
Yeah, no.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IxroxDO8g8&feature=related
Another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrJuigh2aCc&feature=related
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2012, 10:29:58 AM
Yeah, no.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IxroxDO8g8&feature=related
That's obviously glare ice beneath. Anything less than studs isn't going to cut it in those conditions.
So, what you're saying here Cougs is : Ice is slippery?
My God, why didn't I realize that before?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 10, 2012, 02:19:37 PM
So, what you're saying here Cougs is : Ice is slippery?
My God, why didn't I realize that before?
Why does Cougs even have snows? Doesn't Seattle get far less snow and ice than us in OH and MI?
We basically have no snowplows.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 10, 2012, 07:51:12 PM
Why does Cougs even have snows? Doesn't Seattle get far less snow and ice than us in OH and MI?
Yes, but like many snow-lite states, they don't have much of an infrastructure to deal with it.
In MI and OH, unless its an ungodly amount- measured in feet, not inches- it gets plowed and salted within hours of it falling. In some places, well- it just sits there.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 10, 2012, 07:51:12 PM
Why does Cougs even have snows? Doesn't Seattle get far less snow and ice than us in OH and MI?
Seattle gets practically no snow. Ice is more a problem there. But not far to the east, there are places in the mountains that get considerable snowfall. That said, locales with heavy snowfall are pretty isolated. You can have one town or pass that gets 20+ ft per year, and another town <20 miles away that gets less than 5. So if you avoid venturing into those particularly snowy areas, you can largely avoid facing really snowy conditions. Very different from a place like upstate NY where you see a large and more uniform amount of annual snowfall over a large geographical area.
I am buying these damage-free wheels and brand new tires
(http://images.craigslist.org/3Gf3F13N15Lb5Eb5K4cb778340d34ec6314fc.jpg)
for $400 on Wednesday. Awww yeeeee. Winter wheels, yeee.
Where did you find them?
Quote from: SVT666 on November 10, 2012, 08:34:54 PM
Where did you find them?
Craigslist. If all goes well I'll have them on Wed.
I ski a lot, and travel on the eastern side of the mountains a couple of time a month. The Seattle area gets a few snow storms a year on average. Add in the hills, the lousy traffic, little in the way snow removal equipment, etc., it's totally worth it.
Quote from: Laconian on November 10, 2012, 08:40:21 PM
Craigslist. If all goes well I'll have them on Wed.
Do you have the bigger brakes? If so have you confirmed that the 17" sedan stockers will fit?
No, regular brakes. I don't have a Sport.
I think I have have to have 18s because mine is a Sport.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2012, 10:13:00 PM
The Seattle area gets a few snow storms a year on average. Add in the hills, the lousy traffic, little in the way snow removal equipment, etc., it's totally worth it.
I'd be curious how much snow has to fall before folks out there call it a "snow storm". Last winter was one of the least snowiest winters on record for us (I believe it was 3rd) and we still got as much snow as the past 5 winters combined have dropped on Seattle.
If you can't see the grass poking though the snow, it was a storm. :lol:
From: Kevin
Subject: Half an inch of snow on the ground, working from home <eom>
Again, though, the problem in Seattle is that it snows, warms, melts part way, and then freezes into a sheet of ice. And Seattle is a hilly place. It's harder to drive in Seattle after that happens than anywhere where it's just snow.
Correct; it's not the amount it's the result; anything from pavement type to bunches of elevated roadways makes Seattle quite susceptible. The snow followed by the ice storm last January was particularly difficult (I was without power for 3 days).
Well, I've chosen to get the upgraded Infiniti 18" wheels so my choices just plummeted. I can't get the Pilot Aplin PA3 like I wanted. The closest equivalent is the Blizzak LM-60. I'm ordering the wheels next week and will have them refinished, and then get the snows. Google Kev, if those don't work out let me know as I'll let my 17" stockers with RS-A all seasons (though only 10-15% tread) go cheap.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 10, 2012, 11:12:34 PM
I think I have have to have 18s because mine is a Sport.
AWD sport does/can not get the bigger brakes...
Quote from: GoCougs on November 11, 2012, 01:19:57 PM
Well, I've chosen to get the upgraded Infiniti 18" wheels so my choices just plummeted. I can't get the Pilot Aplin PA3 like I wanted. The closest equivalent is the Blizzak LM-60. I'm ordering the wheels next week and will have them refinished, and then get the snows. Google Kev, if those don't work out let me know as I'll let my 17" stockers with RS-A all seasons (though only 10-15% tread) go cheap.
Cool, thanks.
Quote from: Rupert on November 11, 2012, 12:53:57 PM
Again, though, the problem in Seattle is that it snows, warms, melts part way, and then freezes into a sheet of ice. And Seattle is a hilly place. It's harder to drive in Seattle after that happens than anywhere where it's just snow.
We solve that issue by throwing shit tons of salt on the roads prior to a predicted weather event, and then tons of sand and salt afterwards.
And regardless of the thaw/re-freeze cycles after any snowfall, an inch of snow is not a "snow storm". That's a snow shower.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 11, 2012, 01:15:45 PM
Correct; it's not the amount it's the result; anything from pavement type to bunches of elevated roadways makes Seattle quite susceptible. The snow followed by the ice storm last January was particularly difficult (I was without power for 3 days).
I've been through a few of those living in Eugene and Bellingham, and it ain't pretty. Walking down a slight hill on ice is bad enough; let alone driving!
Quote from: MX793 on November 11, 2012, 01:52:57 PM
We solve that issue by throwing shit tons of salt on the roads prior to a predicted weather event, and then tons of sand and salt afterwards.
And regardless of the thaw/re-freeze cycles after any snowfall, an inch of snow is not a "snow storm". That's a snow shower.
How's the rust on that Mustang, BTW? Or can't you drive it for four months a year? ;) :lol:
Boise gets a bunch of 0.5 - 2 inch snows every year (except last year), and the city puts down blue de-icer stuff. Seems to work pretty well. I don't think it's great for car parts, either though.
Quote from: Rupert on November 11, 2012, 02:16:55 PM
How's the rust on that Mustang, BTW? Or can't you drive it for four months a year? ;) :lol:
Boise gets a bunch of 0.5 - 2 inch snows every year (except last year), and the city puts down blue de-icer stuff. Seems to work pretty well. I don't think it's great for car parts, either though.
The salt is why I park it in the winter, not the snow/ice. I got caught in a late season snowfall last year (left maybe .25" accumulated on the ground). Had no issues driving in those conditions. Had a little fun in the parking lot at work.
Regardless, our roads are passable in all but the ugliest of weather because we take the necessary precautions. Can't say I like having to expose my vehicles to the salt, but it sure beats not being able to leave the house every time we get an inch of snow.
Yeah, that's my point.
Considering that Seattle only gets snow twice a year... :huh:
I refuse to buy used cars that spent any time at all anywhere East of the Rocky Mountains in Canada or in the Northern Mid West US or Northeast US simply because of the salt usage. It's outrageous. We have mountains, steep grades on highways and city streets and we use a fraction of the salt they do back east.
It was around 10F in south park when I passed through this weekend. The deicer stuff didn't do shit.
There is some complaining about the magnesium chloride they lay down, but the only significant damage it does is to chrome; pits it pretty badly. Otherwise I have five winters on these roads with zero corrosion other than exposed iron parts (i.e. brake rotors/wheel bearing faces).
Quote from: 2o6 on November 09, 2012, 08:58:34 PM
That's crazy. My Yaris wears 185/55/15's, and it's a class size down.
It's two class sizes down, isn't it? I thought the Yaris was a subcompact.
Also, wheels didn't use to be as big. My B5's design dated back to the 90s, before beltlines were so high that they necessitated larger wheels to visually offset the massive amount of metal on the sides of cars.
Lost traction yesterday driving to my mom's house. It was an inclined left hander that I didn't take too aggressively. They salted when they were expecting snow last week, so all that is crushed up and lowering the traction of tires now. Where I live, there's no salt yet.
Quote from: MX793 on November 07, 2012, 07:48:27 PM
Studded tires will be better on ice, but they tend to skate a bit on bare pavement. On ice, you really need either studs or chains. All-rubber snows aren't going to be appreciably better than all-seasons.
That's not actually true anymore - snow tires are comprised of pretty high levels of silica - a remarakbly sticky compound that really improves grip on ice. We get alot of snow here and our road comission loves to "pre-salt" which means we get a lot of ice during snow storms and under the snow. We get huge amounts of snow at once due to lake effect. modern dedicated snow tires do remarkably well in both snow and ice conditions which is how they are designed now.
Silica is not sticky. Rocks are made of silica. Glass is made of silica. Silica is very hard. Some other shit in there possibly with silica makes things sticky.
Quote from: Rupert on November 12, 2012, 02:39:04 PM
Silica is not sticky. Rocks are made of silica. Glass is made of silica. Silica is very hard. Some other shit in there possibly with silica makes things sticky.
The silica may give it bite on ice.
Silicon isn't silica. Silica is SiO2. Silicon can be combined with stuff to make it very sticky (see caulk for example), but I'm pretty sure silica is silica and silica is hard.
Quote from: Rupert on November 12, 2012, 02:56:45 PM
Silicon isn't silica. Silica is SiO2. Silicon can be combined with stuff to make it very sticky (see caulk for example), but I'm pretty sure silica is silica and silica is hard.
I'm not talking "stickiness", I'm talking bite. Lots of hard silica particles in the rubber should make it course/rough. That would be a benefit on ice as the particles could bite into the surface. Almost like having a little sand dispenser right in front of your tires.
But rohan was talking stickiness, and do you know if tire makers actually do stick sand in their tires?
We got some heavy wet snow yesterday, so the roads got panked down into ice rather quickly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeqG0CqzHq4&noredirect=1
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 13, 2012, 07:14:25 AM
We got some heavy wet snow yesterday, so the roads got panked down into ice rather quickly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeqG0CqzHq4&noredirect=1
Did you take that video? Pretty funny. :lol:
Nope, wasn't me; that's on the other side of town...people were posting/re-posting it on Facebook. That hill just got re-paved over the summer...fun as hell to bomb down at 35mph on the moped, too. :devil: :lol:
Nice! It would've been awesome if the guy drifted around the left hand turn instead of spinning out and then turning. He did a good job of not crashing though.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 13, 2012, 09:28:21 AM
Nice! It would've been awesome if the guy drifted around the left hand turn instead of spinning out and then turning. He did a good job of not crashing though.
Yeah, he definitely got lucky there...the main road through town was just one block farther than that and it looks like there was a big truck stopped in the road just past where he stopped, too. Could've been bad!
Quote from: Rupert on November 12, 2012, 03:16:12 PM
But rohan was talking stickiness, and do you know if tire makers actually do stick sand in their tires?
There's a visible grid pattern in the tread of blizzaks that clearly comes from a somewhat harder material than rubber, and is slightly more reflective. This may be the silica the ads mention. Whether it is indeed silica or one of the many other compounds of silicon 9and I never trust ad print for technical features like this) I don't know.
Just got the Blizzak LM-60s on my new wheels. They're a lot quieter and smoother than anticipated. Still some squishiness at freeway speeds though. I can tell there's more drag too. MPG are gonna drop for sure but I'm gonna be quite a snow machine now!
I haven't used snow tires since the early 1980s.
I think I may actually spring for snow tires this season. We had such a mild winter last year that it wouldn't surprise me if this year is extra snowy. Additionally, I need new tires anyway since the all seasons on my winter rat are more than half worn. OK for summer driving, but they aren't going to be much good in anything deeper than a fraction of an inch. I suppose if I buy them already mounted on a set of steelies, I can always sell them slightly used if I end up getting rid of the Mazda after this winter and they don't fit on whatever I get as a replacement winter/practical car.
Manbearpig is making the winters mild. I'm hoping that the south will come to me, rather than me having to go south to enjoy good weather. Consequences be damned!
Quote from: GoCougs on November 20, 2012, 07:48:55 PM
Just got the Blizzak LM-60s on my new wheels. They're a lot quieter and smoother than anticipated. Still some squishiness at freeway speeds though. I can tell there's more drag too. MPG are gonna drop for sure but I'm gonna be quite a snow machine now!
Too bad they're so unsafe.
and just ordered a set of Blizzak WS70s on steelies.
So the tires on the CSX are pretty much done. Got 50,000kms out of them from when I got the car so they've paid their dues.
Problem is that this happened in winter. I haven't had any major issues driving on them, but I have had to drive painfully slow to compensate. After taking my gfs brand new Civic for a drive I realized just how bad my tires were since I was barely setting off the VSA in that car.
So I'm browsing the ClubRSX for sale section and I see a set of RSX Premium wheels with snows mounted for $430, I offer $380, dude says $360 if I come there (he doesnt have to meet me half way.)
2 of them are practically new, the others, well, they'll make it through the season (All Hankook W300s). The wheels aren't mint, but there is no major damage to any of them, just a couple small scuffs here and there. Heck $90 a wheel with tires? Pretty good deal IMO.
Put them on yesterday in the middle of a snow storm and went for a short drive last night. It should be noted that this is the worst we've gotten dumped on in a long time and that most major roads still had a skim coat of packed snow on them, so this is about as bad as it gets.
This is my first time driving on snows. I noticed extra bite just pulling out of the driveway. The car still wandered a bit going down the road, but I still had steering control. Accelerating/braking/steering were all a bit better than the Continental all-seasons on the Civic.
Stalled the car twice when trying to get into a parking lot, was spinning them a bit and the sudden bite under light throttle caught me twice. I did get into the lot pretty easy though.
All in all, I still don't think I would spend money on a new set of winters. I think they caused a bit of an SUV complex. They made it seem better than it really was, but the laws of physics remain. Comparing again to the Conti all-seasons, well, IMO, the relatively new Contis hold their own pretty darn well. Given that yesterday was about as bad is gets, and I didn't even need to go out, well....
Now, IF, yesterday was a regular occurrence around here then sure, but I can easily live without that little bit of extra bite on the 3-5 days a year that its likely to help. The rest of the time I won't have to endure the whir they are going to make (speculating at this point because I haven't driven them on asphalt yet)
(http://www.ferfolia.net/james/forumpics/csx_w_rsx_rims.jpg)
My snows are actually quieter on bare pavement than my all-seasons were :confused:
Quote from: MX793 on February 09, 2013, 10:31:19 AM
My snows are actually quieter on bare pavement than my all-seasons were :confused:
As I said, speculation at this point. I've been in cars with snows where it sounds like your in a dually with mud boggers on it. Others have been quite a bit better.
Quote from: VTEC_Inside on February 09, 2013, 10:33:04 AM
As I said, speculation at this point. I've been in cars with snows where it sounds like your in a dually with mud boggers on it. Others have been quite a bit better.
My all-seasons were especially loud even when new (and after 50K+ miles and some light cupping, they were even more so). Fairly blocky tread design. They handled snow quite well, though. I pulled through snow up to the rockers with those tires.
Quote from: Raza on November 12, 2012, 09:20:03 AM
Lost traction yesterday driving to my mom's house. It was an inclined left hander that I didn't take too aggressively. They salted when they were expecting snow last week, so all that is crushed up and lowering the traction of tires now. Where I live, there's no salt yet.
Lost traction = spun out?
😈
Couple of comments. By the time you notice decreased tread depth on a dedicated snow tire the tire is shot. Also the W300 is a "performance" snow tire it won't be as effective in the snow as something like the WS70 or X-Ice. Yes, you will have more road noise and ride will be a bit rougher too. Also MPG will drop ~15%.
Getting stuck is a major hassle, and can be dangerous if done late at night and/or out in the middle of nowhere. Since I started buying cars again ('05) I've had dedicated snow tires each season. It is an inconvenience/tradeoff but worth it.
Looks pretty good with the RSX wheels if I don't say so...
(http://www.ferfolia.net/james/forumpics/20130208-Snowmageddon/9.jpg)
Quote from: GoCougs on February 09, 2013, 01:39:38 PM
Couple of comments. By the time you notice decreased tread depth on a dedicated snow tire the tire is shot. Also the W300 is a "performance" snow tire it won't be as effective in the snow as something like the WS70 or X-Ice. Yes, you will have more road noise and ride will be a bit rougher too. Also MPG will drop ~15%.
Interesting... I know nothing about the different snow tires... These were on an RSX so I assume the owner wanted something with a bit more "performance".... Plenty more bite than I've ever had in the snow that's for sure. I was really surprised the way the car pulled out of the rut I got in. I thought for sure I was gonna have to at least get out and clear a bit of snow, then when I stalled it I was like whoa... lol..
Got going about 120kph on them today.
They are a little louder than the worn goodyears but not significantly.
They are def balanced better.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 09, 2013, 01:39:38 PM
Couple of comments. By the time you notice decreased tread depth on a dedicated snow tire the tire is shot. Also the W300 is a "performance" snow tire it won't be as effective in the snow as something like the WS70 or X-Ice. Yes, you will have more road noise and ride will be a bit rougher too. Also MPG will drop ~15%.
Getting stuck is a major hassle, and can be dangerous if done late at night and/or out in the middle of nowhere. Since I started buying cars again ('05) I've had dedicated snow tires each season. It is an inconvenience/tradeoff but worth it.
My Continentals actually have a secondary indication which tells you when they're no longer useful in the snow. I'm pretty close, but they still rock in even deeper stuff. Snow pack is still respectable; ice not as much. But then without studs that was always expected. I'm pretty happy with this tire, and I suspect I'll buy them again.
Update: Dry weather grip? Nope...
B-b-b-but what if it's cold? Winter tires are needed when it's cold, even if it's dry!
Lol... The smell of burning rubber doesn't lie. It makes for some fun burnouts but cornering blows. Had the RSX out on the weekend and it was sheer joy to feel some cornering Gs again.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 03, 2012, 01:23:19 PM
Mandating winter tires is fucking stupid. First of all, you can't predict when it snows. I've seen snow well into May back in my home province. Here in SoOntario, I pushed 3-4" of snow off my driveway 3 whole times last year, and we didn't have much more than 11 days of sub-zero temperatures. Secondly, snow tires and rims cost at least $1000/set. Mandating winter tires forces people to buy bald winter tires off Kijiji... tires that are far more dangerous than the all-seasons that were on their car. All in the name of a stupid provincial law. Lastly, many new all-season tires, like the Hankook Optimo 4S, are even better than many winter tires. Any way you cut it, Craig, BC can keep its communism ICBC, its carbon tax, and its stupid winter tire law. Remember, I lived there 6 years and my wife is from there, so I'm well aware of how such a beautiful place can be so ass-backward.
This^. I live near Windsor ON, and mandating snows for Essex County would be overkill. Don't need em here.
People buy things off of Kijiji?
i've always had a hard time deciding whether to get snow tires. I've lived in cleveland, chicago, baltimore, new york city, lower new york, and now connecticut. In every place except baltimore, it wouldn't be unusual to have the temperature fluctuate up to 25 - 30 degrees in the same week and occasionally even the same day. It'll be 30 degrees F at night and up to 60 degrees F in the mid day. The winters are very unpredicatable with usually no more than 3 or 4 heavy snowfalls which clear within a week. My AWD enclave is so heavy and relatively tall it plows through whatever winter throws at us without any problem with my all seasons. I've never even been close to getting stuck (knock on wood). I had some trouble with my sonata last year and had to keep flipping on and off the traction control in order to get any bite on the roads when it was really slushy out. I "might" spring for snow tires for my beetle but I'm not sure if it's worth it given the temperature fluctuations here and relatively mild snow. Getting stuck would really suck though and that car is pretty small and light. Still deciding.
My perspective, as someone who constantly speeds, steers, and stops hard, is that with snow tires, while you do perhaps lose a marginal amount of dry grip, it doesn't ruin a car's handling and braking as much as is indicated by some. The numbers don't lie, in warm dry weather they don't stop or steer as well as some all-seasons, but with my commute occurring before the sun rises and after it sets, with a mean temperature of 40F or lower through the winter the snows I run manage to have considerable grip even on dry roads, and I'm far more confident pushing these than I would be on my summer tires. I could compromise and run all-seasons, but then I'd be compromising, and I don't like doing that with tires. And, when it is snowy/icy, I'm not worried in the least.
If dry grip was that important then we should all be driving around in sports cars instead of trucks and SUVs.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on November 02, 2013, 07:49:17 AM
If dry grip was that important then we should all be driving around in sports cars instead of trucks and SUVs.
It is that important if you don't drive like an old lady.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 02, 2013, 08:41:58 AM
It is that important if you don't drive like an old lady.
Most people do.
Sportswagon :rockon:
Quote from: S204STi on November 02, 2013, 07:41:15 AM
My perspective, as someone who constantly speeds, steers, and stops hard, is that with snow tires, while you do perhaps lose a marginal amount of dry grip, it doesn't ruin a car's handling and braking as much as is indicated by some. The numbers don't lie, in warm dry weather they don't stop or steer as well as some all-seasons, but with my commute occurring before the sun rises and after it sets, with a mean temperature of 40F or lower through the winter the snows I run manage to have considerable grip even on dry roads, and I'm far more confident pushing these than I would be on my summer tires. I could compromise and run all-seasons, but then I'd be compromising, and I don't like doing that with tires. And, when it is snowy/icy, I'm not worried in the least.
You speed?! Shame on you... :nono:
:dance:
I could really go for a greasy burger right about now.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 03, 2013, 01:23:54 PM
I could really go for a greasy burger right about now.
Better put your snow tires on
WHO NEEDS SNO TIREZ?
http://jalopnik.com/lets-settle-the-winter-tires-vs-all-wheel-drive-debat-1462180324?utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_facebook&utm_source=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow (http://jalopnik.com/lets-settle-the-winter-tires-vs-all-wheel-drive-debat-1462180324?utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_facebook&utm_source=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow)
You've gotta be joking. A car with summer tires didn't make it as far on snow as a car with snow tires?
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 12, 2013, 08:15:10 AM
You've gotta be joking. A car with summer tires didn't make it as far on snow as a car with snow tires?
The argument was rather: Winter tyres + 2WD > Summer tyres + AWD
Summer tires are useless in the snow...doesn't matter if it's 4WD or not. I don't know why that even had to be asked or tested. lol
2WD with snows and 4WD with all-seasons would have been more interesting to see.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 13, 2013, 09:27:46 AM
Summer tires are useless in the snow...doesn't matter if it's 4WD or not. I don't know why that even had to be asked or tested. lol
2WD with snows and 4WD with all-seasons would have been more interesting to see.
My wife's '09 Escape 2WD needs snow tires otherwise we'd never get out of the driveway after a snowfall. My AWD '01 Escape doesn't. Even with a set of all-season Hankooks with 100K km, it has better traction than the '09 with snows.
Drove my brother's S4 on all seasons in some decent snow. The thing was amazing.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 13, 2013, 09:27:46 AM
Summer tires are useless in the snow...doesn't matter if it's 4WD or not. I don't know why that even had to be asked or tested. lol
2WD with snows and 4WD with all-seasons would have been more interesting to see.
That is exactly what that video was.
I've always used all-seasons on the Audis and haven't had a problem yet. Of course, if getting to my office was a 100% life or death commitment, I'd have to get snows. I live in NH and we have 4+ months of winter, last year getting over 100" of snow. I run all winter on Conti all-seasons with quattro and never miss a beat unless it's a crazy blizzard, then I'll stay home and wait it out. But for the usual 6-10" snowfall spread over a 12 hour period, it's a non-issue.
Quote from: Rupert on November 13, 2013, 07:24:35 PM
That is exactly what that video was.
Since when are summer tires all-season tires?
Got my LM-60s put on today. Every year I debate the tradeoff in drop in safety on bare roads vs. improvement on snow/ice. It is noticeable. The 18" Dunlops that come stock on the AWD G are "ultra high performance A/S" which to me sounds almost like a summer tire. For the mountain pass driving I do I feel I need something.
I used to have snow tires put on my car every year, but it's probably been 30 years since I've done it. I just use all season tires now. Even with my RWD BMWs, I've gotten by on those. If I get the Audi A6, my snow driving performance should be significantly improved.
The main reason why put on snow/ice tires on the car is for stopping. My cars with all seasons typically are pretty good, but the vastly decreased stopping distances on ice makes it all worth it for me.
Quote from: Northlands on November 19, 2013, 07:52:19 PM
The main reason why put on snow/ice tires on the car is for stopping. My cars with all seasons typically are pretty good, but the vastly decreased stopping distances on ice makes it all worth it for me.
Yeah. I definitely have to get used to longer stopping distances and slower turn speeds. That's why so many people get into accidents early in the winter or during the first few good snowfalls...they're still getting used to the slippery driving again. Snow tires would be great to have for when emergency stopping or turning is necessary. I've never had the luxury, but I've been accident-free with all-seasons in FWD, RWD, and 4/AWD. Well, I put the Bravada in a snow bank when I was being Colin McRae while it was stuck in 2WD because the AWD locker pump thing or whatever wasn't working.
I primarily want/need traction in ski resort parking lots/roads (varying states of incline, pot holes, snow depth, etc.) and mountain pass driving (can have stop-n-go traffic on steep highways in deep snow).
It's about time for the snows to go back on.
They're getting old. Still have tread left, but they're hardening, I think.
I switched to studded tires couple of weeks ago. No snow yet, but black ice on mornings and nights.
I definetly prefer studs for the winter, although for lot of the situation you could probably do with non-stud winter tires.
I had studded tires two tire sets ago on the Accord. I found them marginal on dry bare roads and downright dangerous on wet bare roads.
Well, studded tires are not fun to have on pavement, specially the noise is pretty bad. In my experience, they are not that much worse on wet pavement, but I would say that also model has a lot to do with it. But for sure, they are not made for cornering on pavement.
My volvo has Nokian Hakkapelita's and they are pretty rough and loud on pavement. Can't remember which brand are the tires on CR-V, but they are a lot smoother and also provide a better lateral grip in the corners.
Once the winter hits here, bye bye dry pavement, welcome the snow, slush and ice!
I'm still running my summer tires on the BRZ. These Pilot Super Sports are ridiculous. The shitty Bridgestones RE-50s I had on the miata wouildn't stick in anything remotely wet under 50 degrees. The Super Sports grip like crazy in the wet down near freezing temps.
We haven't had any serious snow fall yet, and now I've got the element to drive when it does happen. I might just keep the summers on year round and get rid of my snow tires.
Quote from: autokomppania on November 20, 2013, 07:18:26 AM
Well, studded tires are not fun to have on pavement, specially the noise is pretty bad. In my experience, they are not that much worse on wet pavement, but I would say that also model has a lot to do with it. But for sure, they are not made for cornering on pavement.
My volvo has Nokian Hakkapelita's and they are pretty rough and loud on pavement. Can't remember which brand are the tires on CR-V, but they are a lot smoother and also provide a better lateral grip in the corners.
Once the winter hits here, bye bye dry pavement, welcome the snow, slush and ice!
That's my issue. Most of my winter driving is on bare roads but when I need snow traction I REALLY need it.
On truly frozen asphault, winter compound > not. Just before I put the Mustang away for the season, we had a cold snap where it was getting into the low 20s over night. One morning I was driving to work at 6AM (roads were nicely cold-soaked and no solar loading to heat them) and when I pulled out onto the highway, the back end broke lose and I fishtailed under power. Didn't accelerate really any harder than I normally would in dry conditions. In fact, I took off from the stop in 2nd gear. That was shod in some fairly grippy hi-po summer compound tires. The performance all seasons I used to run on my Mazda likewise noticeably lost grip when the road surfaces got to be well below freezing.
Testing and my real-world experience says all-seasons beat snow tires' grip on any temp (or at least down to the coldest I've ever seen - say 15F) bare pavement. By a long shot.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 20, 2013, 03:57:38 PM
Testing and my real-world experience says all-seasons beat snow tires' grip on any temp (or at least down to the coldest I've ever seen - say 15F) bare pavement. By a long shot.
But was the asphault actually 15F? If the sun's out, asphault will be above freezing even in a 15F degree ambient air temperature environment.
Quote from: MX793 on November 20, 2013, 04:06:37 PM
But was the asphault actually 15F? If the sun's out, asphault will be above freezing even in a 15F degree ambient air temperature environment.
Generally, yes (at night too).
C&D winter tire test (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2009-winter-tire-test-comparison-tests): A/S stopped up to 30' shorter on 23F dry road vs. studless snows.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 20, 2013, 04:14:01 PM
Generally, yes (at night too).
C&D winter tire test (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2009-winter-tire-test-comparison-tests): A/S stopped up to 30' shorter on 23F dry road vs. studless snows.
Done at 23 ambient air temperature, not 23 surface temperature. If you look at the photos from the test day, it was pretty bright out. Surface temperatures were likely north of 35F, perhaps as high as 40F, with solar loading. I'd also point out that their "wet" skidpad was also reported at 23F. A thin film of water doesn't stay water very long on 23F asphalt, so the surface had to be above freezing or their wet skidpad would have been an ice-rink. That or they tested in salt water.
Quote from: MrH on November 20, 2013, 01:22:56 PM
... now I've got the element to drive when it does happen. I might just keep the summers on year round and get rid of my snow tires.
:rockon: I miss having seasonal cars...
Quote from: MX793 on November 20, 2013, 04:27:11 PM
Done at 23 ambient air temperature, not 23 surface temperature. If you look at the photos from the test day, it was pretty bright out. Surface temperatures were likely north of 35F, perhaps as high as 40F, with solar loading. I'd also point out that their "wet" skidpad was also reported at 23F. A thin film of water doesn't stay water very long on 23F asphalt, so the surface had to be above freezing or their wet skidpad would have been an ice-rink. That or they tested in salt water.
Unless the car was driven at speed for a time, the tires would have been at about ambient temp, not road surface temp. Also, to me it doesn't look bright out and the ground is concrete (or at least not black asphalt).
Quote from: GoCougs on November 20, 2013, 07:06:57 PM
Unless the car was driven at speed for a time, the tires would have been at about ambient temp, not road surface temp. Also, to me it doesn't look bright out and the ground is concrete (or at least not black asphalt).
I can see a pretty clear shadow of the car in the dry pictures.
Ambient temp was -9C, snow-pack on the asphalt with fresh powder above it, and snow tires ftw.
So we got a little dusting last night and my Potenzas RE670/970 w/e pole positions are horrible in this weather.
We had like a few inches here, and every car I drove wanted to slide off the road, with the exception of the Malibu with WS70s on it. Shitty tires on everything else.