So BMW has always remained faithful to their R6 engine, and Mercedes, after around 1 decade with V6s, has also transitioned back. Now Jaguar/Land Rover is making I6 engines, and apparently Chrysler will replace the Hemi V8 with an I6s. What has happened here? I do understand the advantage of the inherently balanced engine, but why all of the enthusiasm now?
I'm assuming all of these new motors will be turbocharged like BMW's and MB's current offerings? There are certainly some packaging advantages when it comes to turbo 6-pots using inline instead of V in a longitudinally mounted engine.
Quote from: MX793 on May 05, 2019, 04:13:19 AM
I'm assuming all of these new motors will be turbocharged like BMW's and MB's current offerings? There are certainly some packaging advantages when it comes to turbo 6-pots using inline instead of V in a longitudinally mounted engine.
Turbocharged for sure, and the Mercedes inline-6 also has an EQ boost setup.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANd1d2q6T5w
Quote from: Galaxy on May 05, 2019, 01:44:42 AM
So BMW has always remained faithful to their R6 engine, and Mercedes, after around 1 decade with V6s, has also transitioned back. Now Jaguar/Land Rover is making I6 engines, and apparently Chrysler will replace the Hemi V8 with an I6s. What has happened here? I do understand the advantage of the inherently balanced engine, but why all of the enthusiasm now?
Seriously? That's a bad move. People love those Hemis.
Maybe they can call the new I6 a
slant-six.
Hey, does that thing got a
slant-six?Yeah.
Sweet!
:wtf:
They could still call 'em hemis.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 05, 2019, 07:19:46 AM
They could still call 'em hemis.
Kinds of like how I called the 1.9L in my Ford Escort a Hemi?
Quote from: MX793 on May 05, 2019, 04:13:19 AM
I'm assuming all of these new motors will be turbocharged like BMW's and MB's current offerings? There are certainly some packaging advantages when it comes to turbo 6-pots using inline instead of V in a longitudinally mounted engine.
What is the advantage? The 6 is longer.
Packaging is better in a RWD vehicle. Sound is better, too.
153624!
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 05, 2019, 07:19:46 AM
They could still call 'em hemis.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 05, 2019, 07:20:58 AM
Kinds of like how I called the 1.9L in my Ford Escort a Hemi?
(http://car-from-uk.com/ebay/carphotos/full/ebay147956425989016.jpg)
Australian Chryslers had their own six-cylinder Hemi engines. (Totally unrelated to the Slant-Six.)
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 05, 2019, 07:34:38 AM
What is the advantage? The 6 is longer.
It's also quite a bit narrower. :huh:
Quote from: 93JC on May 05, 2019, 08:57:55 AM
It's also quite a bit narrower. :huh:
How does narrower help, you still have to have a longer engine bay and it won't be any narrower; unless the whole car is narrower.
Quote from: shp4man on May 05, 2019, 08:33:41 AM
Packaging is better in a RWD vehicle. Sound is better, too.
153624!
That's debatable :huh:.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEfRr7GTHmY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0jEmmc7Wbs
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 05, 2019, 09:12:26 AM
How does narrower help, you still have to have a longer engine bay and it won't be any narrower; unless the whole car is narrower.
I6 allows for a more phallic profile.
I think the packaging is a wash. Compare the 2 series to a Mustang for example.
I think it's about easier turbocharging and cost cutting (less heads and associated parts). The hot V engines have been... Problematic, which sucks as I wanted that to be a thing. Imagine a hot V pooprod... Could probably do 30mpg on the highway but also pull a loaded commuter train
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 05, 2019, 07:20:58 AM
Kinds of like how I called the 1.9L in my Ford Escort a Hemi?
The second gen Challengers used a 2.6 mitsubishi four cylinder. Guess what they called it.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 05, 2019, 09:59:04 AM
The second gen Challengers used a 2.6 mitsubishi four cylinder. Guess what they called it.
A Japanese shit bomb?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 05, 2019, 09:58:39 AM
I think the packaging is a wash. Compare the 2 series to a Mustang for example.
I think it's about easier turbocharging and cost cutting (less heads and associated parts). The hot V engines have been... Problematic, which sucks as I wanted that to be a thing. Imagine a hot V pooprod... Could probably do 30mpg on the highway but also pull a loaded commuter train
So, more cost effective?
As Sporty notes, when it comes to hanging The Funny Business of the side or stuffing it in between, then there are reliability/durability/maintenance issues.
Some locales still have the lol displacement taxes, whereby above 3.0L of displacement is expensive. A N/A V6 of 3.0L or less is not going to cut it these days.
There will be no inline-6 motors that aren't turbo charged.
It's all quite a shame.
I wonder if having two banks of heads was getting costly. More and more output and efficiency tweaks are implemented by jamming more technology in the cylinder heads.
I think all engines should be small block Chevys. A 4.3 V6 works just as well in a midsized sedan, SUV, pickup truck, UPS truck, or boat.
Quote from: MX793 on May 05, 2019, 04:13:19 AM
I'm assuming all of these new motors will be turbocharged like BMW's and MB's current offerings?
Not sure about Chrysler's future offering, but the ones from BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar/Land Rover are all turbocharged.
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 05, 2019, 09:12:26 AM
How does narrower help, you still have to have a longer engine bay and it won't be any narrower; unless the whole car is narrower.
VR6 would be much shorter, and only slightly wider.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 05, 2019, 09:58:39 AM
I think the packaging is a wash. Compare the 2 series to a Mustang for example.
I think it's about easier turbocharging and cost cutting (less heads and associated parts). The hot V engines have been... Problematic, which sucks as I wanted that to be a thing. Imagine a hot V pooprod... Could probably do 30mpg on the highway but also pull a loaded commuter train
Who has run a hot V configuration outside of '70s Formula One cars and mid engine Ferraris?
Quote from: Galaxy on May 05, 2019, 11:16:56 AM
Not sure about Chrysler's future offering, but the ones from BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar/Land Rover are all turbocharged.
VR6 would be much shorter, and only slightly wider.
...and one head?
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 05, 2019, 11:46:33 AM
...and one head?
Yes, technically- but needing pretty much all the working parts of two.
I think maybe my 2001 BMW 530i had an inline 6. I think my current car has a V-6.
I don't really know the difference. I only know how much I loved having a 6-cylinder again after about 15 years of driving only 4-cylinder engines. I started out with V-8 engines which I drove my first few years of driving, then went to 4-cylinder engines for about 15 years and now I've had 6-cylinder engines for the past 20+ years.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 05, 2019, 11:40:42 AM
Who has run a hot V configuration outside of '70s Formula One cars and mid engine Ferraris?
L Current BMW, M-B and Audi turbo V8s, Audi's 2.9L V6, upcoming Cadillac turbo V8, and probably others, are all "hot V."
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 05, 2019, 11:46:33 AM
...and one head?
Yes.
(http://vr6parts.com/onlinestore/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1800x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/d/s/dscn1622_resize_2.jpg)
But yes:
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 05, 2019, 11:48:13 AM
Yes, technically- but needing pretty much all the working parts of two.
Although with tech like a cam less engine one could simplify that. I am actually surprised that cam less tech is not taking off.
Quote from: dazzleman on May 05, 2019, 11:52:39 AM
I think maybe my 2001 BMW 530i had an inline 6. I think my current car has a V-6.
I don't really know the difference. I only know how much I loved having a 6-cylinder again after about 15 years of driving only 4-cylinder engines. I started out with V-8 engines which I drove my first few years of driving, then went to 4-cylinder engines for about 15 years and now I've had 6-cylinder engines for the past 20+ years.
Inline sixes can feel "creamier", at least the BMW ones I've driven. I imagine diesel I6es still feel like popcorn pumpers, though ;)
Quote from: Galaxy on May 05, 2019, 12:08:00 PM
Although with tech like a cam less engine one could simplify that. I am actually surprised that cam less tech is not taking off.
What's holding it back? I've been reading about solenoid-driven valvetrains for what seems like decades now, but nobody's managed to bring a design to market.
Quote from: Galaxy on May 05, 2019, 12:08:00 PM...
Although with tech like a cam less engine one could simplify that. I am actually surprised that cam less tech is not taking off.
You mean 2-strokes?
Quote from: Laconian on May 05, 2019, 12:20:50 PM
What's holding it back? I've been reading about solenoid-driven valvetrains for what seems like decades now, but nobody's managed to bring a design to market.
Fiat uses a cam less design on the intake valves of their Multiair engine family. On the exhaust side they apparently are having problems preventing the solenoids from being cooked. Only I4s. Would be neat to see that put on Chrysler engines. Koenigsegg has a valveless engine.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 05, 2019, 12:22:56 PM
You mean 2-strokes?
No, a four stroke operated with electric (or electromagnetic, or some other form) valves.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 05, 2019, 11:40:42 AM
Who has run a hot V configuration outside of '70s Formula One cars and mid engine Ferraris?
All the current German V8s are TT hot Vs. I think they all use the heads and probably pistons/con rods from their ubiquitous 2.0T 4 poppers.
I think we have crossed the event horizon of dieselly 500cc/cylinder turbo DI gas engines. Kinda sucks :(
I don't want to go all retro on you guys, but the inline 6 is regarded as possibly the most dependable engines of all time. Why, you ask? Because it's easy to work on, no hidden, buried in parts removal problems issues. Chevrolet and other manufacturers used it for years for that reason.
Think of the reputation of the Chrysler slant 6, still talked about today, and the GM and Ford I6's. Now, add modern technology and metallurgy to these legendary engines. It's a win-win.
In case you haven't googled it, 153624 is the firing order for all inline 6's.
And yes, they can make power, if that's what the design specification calls for.
Quote from: Laconian on May 05, 2019, 12:20:50 PM
What's holding it back? I've been reading about solenoid-driven valvetrains for what seems like decades now, but nobody's managed to bring a design to market.
My first guess is cost/benefit ratio. What with CVTs and 8-10 sp ATs the norm, engines don't need a wide powerband anymore.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 05, 2019, 12:55:54 PM
My first guess is cost/benefit ratio. What with CVTs and 8-10 sp ATs the norm, engines don't need a wide powerband anymore.
Diesel time.
Quote from: shp4man on May 05, 2019, 12:52:25 PM
I don't want to go all retro on you guys, but the inline 6 is regarded as possibly the most dependable engines of all time. Why, you ask? Because it's easy to work on, no hidden, buried in parts removal problems issues. Chevrolet and other manufacturers used it for years for that reason.
Think of the reputation of the Chrysler slant 6, still talked about today, and the GM and Ford I6's. Now, add modern technology and metallurgy to these legendary engines. It's a win-win.
In case you haven't googled it, 153624 is the firing order for all inline 6's.
And yes, they can make power, if that's what the design specification calls for.
I don't think anyone is questioning the I6's advantages. Just sucks that we are losing choice. In time the only non-exotic engines available will be turbo I4s or I6s.
Quote from: Galaxy on May 05, 2019, 12:35:52 PM
Fiat uses a cam less design on the intake valves of their Multiair engine family. On the exhaust side they apparently are having problems preventing the solenoids from being cooked. Only I4s. Would be neat to see that put on Chrysler engines. Koenigsegg has a valveless engine.
My understanding is that MultiAir still uses cams, but the lobes push poppets which can be hydraulically disengaged by solenoids which are physically separate from the combustion chamber.
I used to be more excited about MultiAir, but it seems to be rather underwhelming in practice.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 05, 2019, 11:53:04 AM
L Current BMW, M-B and Audi turbo V8s, Audi's 2.9L V6, upcoming Cadillac turbo V8, and probably others, are all "hot V."
I see.
That is not what that term used to mean. (when it applied to NA racing engines)
Quote from: Galaxy on May 05, 2019, 12:08:00 PM
Although with tech like a cam less engine one could simplify that. I am actually surprised that cam less tech is not taking off.
Quote from: Laconian on May 05, 2019, 12:20:50 PM
What's holding it back? I've been reading about solenoid-driven valvetrains for what seems like decades now, but nobody's managed to bring a design to market.
Koennigsegg, I believe, has the best solution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZWeNPi2XkE
looks expensive.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 05, 2019, 01:09:10 PM
I see.
That is not what that term used to mean. (when it applied to NA racing engines)
What's the difference? As a casual observer it looks identical to me - exhaust on the inside of the V.
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 05, 2019, 01:18:39 PM
Koennigsegg, I believe, has the best solution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZWeNPi2XkE
My second guess is it is very expensive/difficult to make reliable/durable over the long haul.
Each valve is actuated by an extremely precise, high bandwidth, and relatively powerful (i.e., current consuming/heat producing) actuator and requires a fair amount of processing power.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 05, 2019, 01:45:48 PM
My second guess is it is very expensive/difficult to make reliable/durable over the long haul.
Each valve is actuated by an extremely precise, high bandwidth, and relatively powerful (i.e., current consuming/heat producing) actuator and requires a fair amount of processing power.
We should see how it all works out in the not too distance future...
Koenigsegg's Next Supercar Will Have a Camless Engine (https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a26098563/koenigsegg-hybrid-supercar-camless-freevalve-engine/).
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 05, 2019, 01:09:10 PM
I see.
That is not what that term used to mean. (when it applied to NA racing engines)
What does it mean then? I always assumed hot V means that essentially the engine runs in reverse, with the exhaust in the center, and the intake outside.
Quote from: Laconian on May 05, 2019, 01:07:18 PM
My understanding is that MultiAir still uses cams, but the lobes push poppets which can be hydraulically disengaged by solenoids which are physically separate from the combustion chamber.
I used to be more excited about MultiAir, but it seems to be rather underwhelming in practice.
You are right, I was under the impression that it works without a cam, and yes it is disappointing that the Fiat engines do not seem to have any fuel economy benefits.
Just learned that the Jaguar/Land Rover Ingenium engine family (including the new I6) uses the Fiat system.
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 05, 2019, 07:34:38 AM
What is the advantage? The 6 is longer.
Plumbing for the turbo is cleaner on an I6 than V, and takes up less space, width-wise, than a V6.
Quote from: Galaxy on May 05, 2019, 02:41:00 PM
What does it mean then? I always assumed hot V means that essentially the engine runs in reverse, with the exhaust in the center, and the intake outside.
Never seen it applied to turbos, that's all. In retrospect, that's probably not a definitive difference.
Usually the simplest solutions work best, which is why Toyota is often tops in fuel economy and reliability.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 05, 2019, 04:34:43 PM
Usually the simplest solutions work best, which is why Toyota is often tops in fuel economy and reliability.
By using and BMW engine... :ohyeah:
153624? I thought it was 25 or 6 to 4?
142635
Add Mazda to the companies that are going to Inline 6. Both diesel and gasoline.
Oh god, really? When was this announced? And if the SkyactiveX and the diesel are any indication, it will not meet any deadlines or promises.
Quote from: Xer0 on May 09, 2019, 09:48:24 AM
Oh god, really? When was this announced? And if the SkyactiveX and the diesel are any indication, it will not meet any deadlines or promises.
https://www.mazda.com/globalassets/en/assets/investors/library/presentation/files/pre190509_e.pdf
Page 25. I believe that this is the first mention, with no formal announcement, so it may have been leaked unintentionally.
I would be pretty excited about a I6 turbo in a Mazda with a longitudinal layout
Quote from: r0tor on May 09, 2019, 10:26:12 AM
I would be pretty excited about a I6 turbo in a Mazda with a longitudinal layout
You and all the other actual buyers of this thing could probably fit in one (1) of said vehicles
Like Xer0 said, diesel, Skyactiv-X and now this... Mazda needs to focus on what makes sense, including leveraging its partnership with Toyota, who has great hybrid tech, a brand new RWD platform and a brand new turbo 6 popper to go with it
This rumor has Alpha platform vibes :facepalm:
Quote from: Galaxy on May 05, 2019, 02:46:38 PM
You are right, I was under the impression that it works without a cam, and yes it is disappointing that the Fiat engines do not seem to have any fuel economy benefits.
Just learned that the Jaguar/Land Rover Ingenium engine family (including the new I6) uses the Fiat system.
Actually the Giulia 2.0T is about the best in class for fuel efficiency and power output (among the 4 cylinders). Multiair is rather simplistic and effective.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 09, 2019, 11:38:08 AM
You and all the other actual buyers of this thing could probably fit in one (1) of said vehicles
Like Xer0 said, diesel, Skyactiv-X and now this... Mazda needs to focus on what makes sense, including leveraging its partnership with Toyota, who has great hybrid tech, a brand new RWD platform and a brand new turbo 6 popper to go with it
This rumor has Alpha platform vibes :facepalm:
Mazda has run out of growth potential with generic 4 fwd 4 cylinders
Mazda needs to do a sportscar with the Skyactiv 6. Maybe partner with Alfa. Offer a stick and make it $10k cheaper than the Supra. :rockon:
I wonder if Mazda would just use the Giulia platform for a rwd platform
Quote from: r0tor on May 09, 2019, 01:40:43 PM
Mazda has run out of growth potential with generic 4 fwd 4 cylinders
A couple of people on the internet saying "that would be cool id buy one" is not meaningful growth potential
Quote from: 93JC on May 05, 2019, 08:57:22 AM
(http://car-from-uk.com/ebay/carphotos/full/ebay147956425989016.jpg)
Australian Chryslers had their own six-cylinder Hemi engines. (Totally unrelated to the Slant-Six.)
The Jag XK6 engine was hemi.
There's so much creamy goodness in inline sixes - hard to beat for smoothness & inherent balance.
Mazda in some ways is the "new BMW" because of their focus on driving joy. This will only make it truer.
We´ll see but it sounds very promising.
Unfortunately, BMW is in someways the new Mercedes with their focus on luxury :lol:
Quote from: Xer0 on May 10, 2019, 09:28:56 AM
Unfortunately, BMW is in someways the new Mercedes with their focus on luxury :lol:
I won't disagree with that. Other than full M cars and very few regular models (2 series).
So Mercedes is the new..?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 10, 2019, 09:45:16 AM
So Mercedes is the new..?
Best interior manufacturer?
Affordable Rolls Royce?
BMW Luxury +1?
HCCI inline sixes. Jizzzzzz
Volume is a different story but I think Mazda's cars are already up to Acura's levels, if not higher, sans the NSX.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 10, 2019, 05:26:16 AM
A couple of people on the internet saying "that would be cool id buy one" is not meaningful growth potential
Quote from: HurricaneSteve on May 10, 2019, 01:29:05 PM
Volume is a different story but I think Mazda's cars are already up to Acura's levels, if not higher, sans the NSX.
Oh for sure. As far as a combo of form and function go I'd say Mazda is the best in the business. Everyone else either has interiors that work but are ugly, or interiors that are better looking with awful functionality. (Sometimes both... for more money :mask: ) And that actually matters to customers, unlike cylinder count or drive wheels.
If this happened, this would be the first non-Porsche premium product in a while (since the announcement of the M2) to excite me. I'd buy one (but I suspect few others would).
I keep comparing this and the Stinger/Genesis and the fact that Mazda makes it gives me a lot of hope for its real-world performance.
I also believe that their quality control would exceed that of Kia/Hyundai. Infiniti was on their way to becoming a reliable alternative to the old BMW but fell off the wagon along the way. Perhaps Mazda can pick up where they left off.
Quote from: CALL_911 on May 10, 2019, 02:07:37 PM
If this happened, this would be the first non-Porsche premium product in a while (since the announcement of the M2) to excite me. I'd buy one (but I suspect few others would).
I keep comparing this and the Stinger/Genesis and the fact that Mazda makes it gives me a lot of hope for its real-world performance.
What's wrong with the Stinger and Genesis? Aren't they supposed to be great cars?
Infiniti's turned into a broken record with VQ engines and the FM platform. They provided tremendous performance and value when they were new, but it seems like their R&D dollars are being frittered away on nonsense. Steer by wire? Ferrrrrrrrrrrt! Variable compression engines? Ferrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt!
Quote from: Laconian on May 10, 2019, 09:45:40 PM
What's wrong with the Stinger and Genesis? Aren't they supposed to be great cars?
They are only 3/4 baked
Quote from: Laconian on May 10, 2019, 09:45:40 PM
What's wrong with the Stinger and Genesis? Aren't they supposed to be great cars?
Infiniti's turned into a broken record with VQ engines and the FM platform. They provided tremendous performance and value when they were new, but it seems like their R&D dollars are being frittered away on nonsense. Steer by wire? Ferrrrrrrrrrrt! Variable compression engines? Ferrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt!
The stick in the Genesis is bad and only available with mealy 4 popper
V6T is OK but w/e.
VQ is dead, VR twin turbo is the move now. Not sure what people want from Infiniti mechanically. Cadillac and Jaguar focused on dynamics... look what it got em. BMW.... Beee Em Double You.... can't sell a stickshift 3 series in the US. Truthfully all the Q50 needs is a better transmission, some weight savings and an improved infotainment system.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 11, 2019, 10:03:41 AM
The stick in the Genesis is bad and only available with mealy 4 popper
V6T is OK but w/e.
VQ is dead, VR twin turbo is the move now. Not sure what people want from Infiniti mechanically. Cadillac and Jaguar focused on dynamics... look what it got em. BMW.... Beee Em Double You.... can't sell a stickshift 3 series in the US. Truthfully all the Q50 needs is a better transmission, some weight savings and an improved infotainment system.
The notion that stick-shift 3ers don't sell is bullshit. Sales data showed that the number of 3ers equipped with MTs sold in the US was relatively constant from the E30 up through the E9x generation, if not slightly increasing.
Quote from: MX793 on May 11, 2019, 12:01:30 PM
The notion that stick-shift 3ers don't sell is bullshit. Sales data showed that the number of 3ers equipped with MTs sold in the US was relatively constant from the E30 up through the E9x generation, if not slightly increasing.
Back when the E9x was still on sale new 9 years ago you could get a stick from pretty much all its competitors. You could also get a 6 pot with 3 pedals and 4 doors from a wide range of mainstream manufacturers. Shit's changed
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 11, 2019, 02:54:08 PM
Back when the E9x was still on sale new 9 years ago you could get a stick from pretty much all its competitors. You could also get a 6 pot with 3 pedals and 4 doors from a wide range of mainstream manufacturers. Shit's changed
So MT sales vanished the instant the F generation 3er showed up? Don't think so. Number of manuals held constant. Number of total 3ers sold went up as BMW chased sales volume. Those new buyers largely preferred autos, so percentage of MTs fell. BMW went from targeting enthusiasts, connoisseurs, and drivers to poseurs and badge snobs. Ultimate Driving Machine to Ultimate Marketing Machine. Interestingly, BMW officially dumped their Ultimate Driving Machine slogan in 2013, same time the F20 came out.
Quote from: MX793 on May 11, 2019, 03:13:46 PM
So MT sales vanished the instant the F generation 3er showed up? Don't think so. Number of manuals held constant. Number of total 3ers sold went up as BMW chased sales volume. Those new buyers largely preferred autos, so percentage of MTs fell. BMW went from targeting enthusiasts, connoisseurs, and drivers to poseurs and badge snobs. Ultimate Driving Machine to Ultimate Marketing Machine. Interestingly, BMW officially dumped their Ultimate Driving Machine slogan in 2013, same time the F20 came out.
I agree with much of this, but I don't see how dropping a transmission choice makes sense in the context of chasing volume. It's prob a chicken and egg situation but for whatever reason selling sticks in the US was no longer worth it to BMW. Can't say they didn't make a legit effort; 6MT 340i checked off all the boxes.
A big part of the blame goes to dealers... they dictate a lot of what customers buy. But they also know what customers want, and to a large degree 3rd pedals = lot cancer. Why do you think that is?
For "enthusiast" cars, MTs are far from a cancer. When the Frisbees came out, local dealers here couldn't get them in anything but auto. Any MT they got was snapped up instantly. Autos languished on the lots. An associate who worked for a Scion dealer was bemoaning the sales he lost because Toyota kept forcing them to accept slushies.
BMW has gone after volume, trying to appeal to those who might otherwise buy high end Camcords. Unthusiasts and status-chasers. Their volume went up, but the clientele wasn't traditional BMW. People wanting bigger, softer cars. Percentage of MTs went down as volume went up. Beancounters cite the percentage as justification. Doesn't make sense to certify/federalize a drivetrain that so relatively few opt for.
The other factors at play are fuel economy and emissions. Automatics can be programmed to be optimized for EPA and similar tests. More ratios than are practical in an MT, shifts tied directly to engine load and throttle position instead of vehicle speed alone. GM played games with skip-shift lockouts in their MTs to try to cheat the EPA tests, but if you really want to game the system, you need full control of the variables.
If Ford can keep making the GT350 and Honda can make the CTR then BMW could def have kept making 3 pedal non M 3s
The reality is the demand just dried up. Automatics these days are good enough for even some hardcore cloverleaf carvers. People who still want 3 pedals seem to be willing to give up damn near anything for them.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 12, 2019, 06:36:18 PM
If Ford can keep making the GT350 and Honda can make the CTR then BMW could def have kept making 3 pedal non M 3s
The reality is the demand just dried up. Automatics these days are good enough for even some hardcore cloverleaf carvers. People who still want 3 pedals seem to be willing to give up damn near anything for them.
GT350 doesn't sell in nearly the volume of the 3 series. The entire Mustang family doesn't sell in the same volume as the 3 series. Likewise the CTR. The 3-series is BMWs CamCord. It's not a niche model. They need to make sure their volume sellers get the best fuel economy and emit the least CO2/emissions possible because those models have the biggest impact on CAFE and similar fleet averages. This is why Ford abandoned cars in the American market. Truck CAFE average is easier to meet, especially with car-based crossovers. And the CUVs help offset the gas-guzzling F150s for the truck fleet average. That more and more people were opting for CUVs instead of cars anyway just added further incentive to cut bait and run. It's not that people weren't still buying cars, it's that it was advantageous, financially, to stop making them.
Additionally, the masses don't buy stick. So even though the enthusiast crowd who were buying MT 3ers were still buying, the influx of unthusiasts who BMW lured to the brand, the "volume segment", didn't, which diluted the percentage of models sold with a stick. Beancounters look at percentages, not total sales. When the percentage dropped below a certain threshold, they killed it.