The science is in. Narrow lanes are safer.
https://www.wri.org/blog/2016/12/bigger-isnt-always-better-narrow-traffic-lanes-make-cities-safer
God, I hate reporting on scientific research.
- Their own graphic indicates that the most narrow lanes are more dangerous than moderately narrow lanes, so the headline is just dumb.
- This could very easily be a correlation, not causation, situation. They're comparing a handful of cities across different countries and continents. Differences in vehicle safety, driving style, pedestrian awareness, etc. could all account for pieces of this difference. It'd be much more useful to see a comparison of a single city before and after they make changes to their lane sizes, or at least compare different cities within the same country.
Mass is the safest state to drive in. Wyoming is the most dangerous. Go figger.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 05, 2019, 01:55:02 PM
God, I hate reporting on scientific research.
- Their own graphic indicates that the most narrow lanes are more dangerous than moderately narrow lanes, so the headline is just dumb.
- This could very easily be a correlation, not causation, situation. They're comparing a handful of cities across different countries and continents. Differences in vehicle safety, driving style, pedestrian awareness, etc. could all account for pieces of this difference. It'd be much more useful to see a comparison of a single city before and after they make changes to their lane sizes, or at least compare different cities within the same country.
Narrow lanes are usually common in cities that are generally older and more pedestrian friendly in the first place.
Wider lanes are much less stressful to drive on, so this won't convince me to make them narrower. You can reduce speed limits and still have wider lanes...
Wide lanes induce people to drive faster. FL has some roads which are notorious killers, because they paved huge boulevards with wide lanes straight through school zones. The predictable result was that people were hitting kids at 50mph.
Humans are stupid and are more guided by their amygdalas than road signs.
Quote from: Laconian on June 05, 2019, 03:48:18 PM
Wide lanes induce people to drive faster. FL has some roads which are notorious killers, because they paved huge boulevards with wide lanes straight through school zones. The predictable result was that people were hitting kids at 50mph.
Humans are stupid and are more guided by their amygdalas than road signs.
Counter point: road signs are stupid.
Quote from: Laconian on June 05, 2019, 03:48:18 PM
Wide lanes induce people to drive faster. FL has some roads which are notorious killers, because they paved huge boulevards with wide lanes straight through school zones. The predictable result was that people were hitting kids at 50mph.
Humans are stupid and are more guided by their amygdalas than road signs.
This was what I was going to say.
Roads that are a little bit "unsafe/ predictable" cause drivers to be more cautious than ones that "feel" safer/faster. Saw some other study on it.
It makes sense, people pay more attention when cars are closer together. Also, with wider lanes, people tend to wander; at least around here. Drivers often infringe on the next lane for no reason.
That they mention Delhi though as having wide lanes and being more dangerous, yeah, maybe they have wider lanes but wherever there's 3 wide lanes on a road, there's 7 lanes of traffic on it; all honking their horns and yelling at each other. Lanes mean nothing to them.
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 05, 2019, 05:59:45 PM
It makes sense, people pay more attention when cars are closer together. Also, with wider lanes, people tend to wander; at least around here. Drivers often infringe on the next lane for no reason.
That they mention Delhi though as having wide lanes and being more dangerous, yeah, maybe they have wider lanes but wherever there's 3 wide lanes on a road, there's 7 lanes of traffic on it; all honking their horns and yelling at each other. Lanes mean nothing to them.
Craziness. My first time driving into Paris was in a rental car I was paranoid about, and the one-lane exit from one freeway to the "beltway" had 3 lanes of traffic on it.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on June 05, 2019, 03:33:04 PM
Narrow lanes are usually common in cities that are generally older and more pedestrian friendly in the first place.
Wider lanes are much less stressful to drive on, so this won't convince me to make them narrower. You can reduce speed limits and still have wider lanes...
You just proved the article right lol.
Speed limits are completely irrelevant. There is no traffic law enforcement in much of the country, so people drive at whatever speed and in whatever lane they like. Narrower lanes (where feasible/logical) trick people into slowing down.
The lane widths on some of the freeways going into Atlanta are high. Multi-lanes of traffic, billiard table-smooth, with all the visual cues for doing triple digit speeds. Speed limits are high too, well into the urban area.
I've long though that a ruthlessly-enforced low urban speed limit would move more traffic by reducing stop-go surging. Maybe couple that with the narrower lanes.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 05, 2019, 05:37:41 PM
This was what I was going to say.
Roads that are a little bit "unsafe/ predictable" cause drivers to be more cautious than ones that "feel" safer/faster. Saw some other study on it.
That's why I favor roundabouts; they force drivers to engage.
I like wide lanes because I can pass slow traffic without needing another lane.
Quote from: Laconian on June 05, 2019, 03:48:18 PM
Wide lanes induce people to drive faster. FL has some roads which are notorious killers, because they paved huge boulevards with wide lanes straight through school zones. The predictable result was that people were hitting kids at 50mph.
Humans are stupid and are more guided by their amygdalas than road signs.
The fact that Florida is flat as a board doesn't help either. Lots of crashes because people pulled out in front of a car, often because they had difficulty gauging how far away the oncoming vehicle actually was due to roads being arrow-straight and perfectly flat.
Quote from: MX793 on June 05, 2019, 08:38:29 PM
The fact that Florida is flat as a board doesn't help either. Lots of crashes because people pulled out in front of a car, often because they had difficulty gauging how far away the oncoming vehicle actually was due to roads being arrow-straight and perfectly flat.
That is the worst reason ever to have a crash.
Quote from: Laconian on June 05, 2019, 03:48:18 PM
Wide lanes induce people to drive faster. FL has some roads which are notorious killers, because they paved huge boulevards with wide lanes straight through school zones. The predictable result was that people were hitting kids at 50mph.
Humans are stupid and are more guided by their amygdalas than road signs.
Sure, but it seems like there are better ways to improve pedestrian safety than to literally stress the general population into submission. :huh:
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 05, 2019, 05:59:45 PM
That they mention Delhi though as having wide lanes and being more dangerous, yeah, maybe they have wider lanes but wherever there's 3 wide lanes on a road, there's 7 lanes of traffic on it; all honking their horns and yelling at each other. Lanes mean nothing to them.
Exactly. Make the lanes whatever width you want - New Delhi will probably still be more dangerous than Copenhagen.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 05, 2019, 08:43:57 PM
Sure, but it seems like there are better ways to improve pedestrian safety than to literally stress the general population into submission. :huh:
+1
Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 05, 2019, 08:43:57 PM
Sure, but it seems like there are better ways to improve pedestrian safety than to literally stress the general population into submission. :huh:
Such as?
American drivers are increasingly disengaged, which is making the roads more dangerous. I'd rather drivers be a little more "stressed" and engaged if it means higher road safety.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 06, 2019, 05:30:02 AM
Such as?
American drivers are increasingly disengaged, which is making the roads more dangerous. I'd rather drivers be a little more "stressed" and engaged if it means higher road safety.
Better pedestrian crossings? Especially making sure they match the size of the road and number of pedestrians.
Unless those crossings slow drivers down.... they're not gonna do much to slow drivers down.... which seems to be the main issue.
A red light? Lol
When there's one lane each bidirectional traffic (one lane of traffic going in one direction and an adjacent lane of traffic going in the opposite direction, without a physical lane divider or median) i sure as hell don't want more narrow lanes. Wider is better.
Quote from: veeman on June 06, 2019, 09:52:26 AM
When there's one lane each bidirectional traffic (one lane of traffic going in one direction and an adjacent lane of traffic going in the opposite direction, without a physical lane divider or median) i sure as hell don't want more narrow lanes. Wider is better.
Many back-country/rural roads up here are sort of one and a half lanes; you occupy about two thirds of the road until you see someone coming in the opposite direction and then you pull over until one side of the car is pretty much on the verge. No need to slow down and you get past with no real drama. Drivers are just more focused on what's happening. Highways around where we live, Mississauga, you many be familiar, have lanes that are quite wide, yet people are wandering all over the place on them. Crashes happen with no logical reason other than lack of attention. I often get worried that someone in the other lane may just wander over and bump me in the side.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 05, 2019, 08:43:57 PM
Sure, but it seems like there are better ways to improve pedestrian safety than to literally stress the general population into submission. :huh:
Designing to keep people's vigilance raised in areas which demand vigilance seems like a good thing to me. And TFA bears that out with statistics?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 06, 2019, 05:30:02 AM
Such as?
Ideally pedestrian bridges/tunnels, but Boulder has a bunch of crosswalks with bright flashy lights that seem to work really well.
Multi lane roads, I find, also confuse many drivers. When turning onto them from a cross street, they sometimes can't seem to tell which lane the cars approaching them are in. It's happened to me a few times, once almost being a serious collision. I was blasting along the curb lane on a local three lane 'parkway' when a driver, a woman in this case, from a side street casually pulled out a couple of hundred feet in front of me. As the conditions were quite damp, I came skiddering to a halt feet from her door after she had slammed on her brakes halfway into my lane. She saw me coming, but it didn't register with her what lane I was in. Scared the hell out of my wife.
People don't like underpasses & tunnels because of the cover they give to bad guys.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 10:22:42 AM
Ideally pedestrian bridges/tunnels, but Boulder has a bunch of crosswalks with bright flashy lights that seem to work really well.
Kirkland OD'd on that. Safety sign blindness is a real phenomenon. You need to put signs up where they're critical, but design to send unconscious cues for everything that's just sub-critical, because otherwise people become numb to signage and ignore the important things.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 10:22:42 AM
Ideally pedestrian bridges/tunnels, but Boulder has a bunch of crosswalks with bright flashy lights that seem to work really well.
Our crosswalks here, seems most of them, have flashing amber lights when the pedestrian presses the button before crossing.
Quote from: Morris Minor on June 06, 2019, 10:32:44 AM
People don't like underpasses & tunnels because of the cover they give to bad guys.
Here in Seattle, they would almost certainly turn into homeless encampments.
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 06, 2019, 10:08:42 AM
Many back-country/rural roads up here are sort of one and a half lanes; you occupy about two thirds of the road until you see someone coming in the opposite direction and then you pull over until one side of the car is pretty much on the verge. No need to slow down and you get past with no real drama. Drivers are just more focused on what's happening. Highways around where we live, Mississauga, you many be familiar, have lanes that are quite wide, yet people are wandering all over the place on them. Crashes happen with no logical reason other than lack of attention. I often get worried that someone in the other lane may just wander over and bump me in the side.
No way, those roads are awful. Lots of mountain roads around here are like that and it's downright dangerous to be a motorcycle on them. You'll go around a corner and get blindsided by a Suburban taking up the whole road
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 06, 2019, 10:41:24 AM
Our crosswalks here, seems most of them, have flashing amber lights when the pedestrian presses the button before crossing.
Yup, that's exactly what I'm talking about. At least around here, people (anecdotally) seem to be
really good at stopping for them.
Quote from: Morris Minor on June 06, 2019, 10:32:44 AM
People don't like underpasses & tunnels because of the cover they give to bad guys.
Not to mention the cost! Imagine pedestrian bridges and tunnels in NYC. Handicapped accessible ones at that. No way. Just make the road lanes narrower so everyone slows the hell down and pays attention to what they're doing. Crosswalk design can be improved as well without giving pedestrians their own separate roadways.
I really don't think narrow lanes will just solve everything. This study is far from a solid conclusion.
Pedestrians crossing at intersections with crosswalks and traffic lights is near flawless without making driving more stressful.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 06, 2019, 11:25:27 AM
Not to mention the cost! Imagine pedestrian bridges and tunnels in NYC. Handicapped accessible ones at that. No way. Just make the road lanes narrower so everyone slows the hell down and pays attention to what they're doing. Crosswalk design can be improved as well without giving pedestrians their own separate roadways.
Yeah, obviously it's not practical for every situation. But a pedestrian bridge is a perfect solution to little kids crossing a giant Florida road.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on June 06, 2019, 11:02:38 AM
No way, those roads are awful. Lots of mountain roads around here are like that and it's downright dangerous to be a motorcycle on them. You'll go around a corner and get blindsided by a Suburban taking up the whole road
Maybe, but it keeps you alert, I bet.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on June 06, 2019, 11:33:18 AM
I really don't think narrow lanes will just solve everything. This study is far from a solid conclusion.
Pedestrians crossing at intersections with crosswalks and traffic lights is near flawless without making driving more stressful.
Nobody said it would be a catch all. Pedestrian deaths are rising and this is one way to combat that.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 11:54:24 AM
Yeah, obviously it's not practical for every situation. But a pedestrian bridge is a perfect solution to little kids crossing a giant Florida road.
Well... maybe not in Florida.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/11/15/ntsb-miami-bridge-collapse-design-errors/2012020002/
People simply need to pay attention to actual driving and not be on the phone. Regardless of how wide of the road, people are paying less and less attention to driving and more to their phone. I've seen people swerve for no reason regardless of how wide the lane is, at least with wider lanes, they're still within their own lane rather than coming into mine forcing me to swerve. And even if they do come into my lane, with wide lanes, I have enough space to avoid them without crashing into someone else.
Quote from: NomisR on June 06, 2019, 12:32:21 PM
People simply need to pay attention to actual driving and not be on the phone. Regardless of how wide of the road, people are paying less and less attention to driving and more to their phone. I've seen people swerve for no reason regardless of how wide the lane is, at least with wider lanes, they're still within their own lane rather than coming into mine forcing me to swerve. And even if they do come into my lane, with wide lanes, I have enough space to avoid them without crashing into someone else.
Is being on the phone while driving not illegal in most/all states?
Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 11:54:24 AM
Yeah, obviously it's not practical for every situation. But a pedestrian bridge is a perfect solution to little kids crossing a giant Florida road.
Building bridges, underpasses and the like is part of the issue, not a solution to it. It makes walking more arduous than it has to be and encourages pedestrians to jaywalk. (across a humongous road, which is more dangerous, etc etc)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 06, 2019, 11:57:09 AM
Nobody said it would be a catch all. Pedestrian deaths are rising and this is one way to combat that.
Why are the deaths rising? Have the lanes been getting wider? Or is it due to other factors... Like smart phones usage by both drivers and pedestrians
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 06, 2019, 12:49:47 PM
Is being on the phone while driving not illegal in most/all states?
I would say so. So's speeding.
Quote from: 93JC on June 06, 2019, 12:50:30 PM
Building bridges, underpasses and the like is part of the issue, not a solution to it. It makes walking more arduous than it has to be and encourages pedestrians to jaywalk. (across a humongous road, which is more dangerous, etc etc)
Depends on how they're built and where they're put.
"The effectiveness depends largely on the likelihood that they will be used by pedestrians and bicyclists as an alternative to at-grade crossings. For bridges and underpasses that are used by a large proportion of pedestrians and bicyclists, studies have found that pedestrian-related crashes decreased by 91 percent.[24] However, other studies have determined that if the walking time to use an overpass is 50 percent longer than crossing the street at-grade, then the bridge or underpass will not be used and will be ineffective in reducing crashes.[25]" http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/engineering/pedestrian_and_bicycle_bridges_and_tunnels.cfm
FWIW, I'm not completely opposed to the idea of narrower lanes - I just don't think that this particular article is very convincing. I'd want to see more relevant data and perhaps actually drive on a width that they're proposing to really say. I recently voted (in a survey, not an official vote) to narrow a road near me so that they could put in a buffer between the car lanes and bike lanes. IIRC, the new width is 11ft, which is just barely wider than the "safe" zone proposed by this article, and I find it to be fine, though I wouldn't want to go too much more narrow.
On the other hand, there was a road in Atlanta that had really narrow lanes (not sure on exact measurement) because they added lanes without actually widening the road, and it was completely terrifying to drive on to the point where I'd take detours when possible. I don't know about pedestrian safety, but side-swipe accidents were pretty common on that road. They eventually removed some car lanes, widened the left-over lanes, and added buffered bike lanes, all of which I support.
Quote from: NomisR on June 06, 2019, 02:33:46 PM
I would say so. So's speeding.
What kind of fines are there? Here, it's up to $1000 as well as demerit points on your license for a first offence.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 02:36:21 PM
Depends on how they're built and where they're put.
"The effectiveness depends largely on the likelihood that they will be used by pedestrians and bicyclists as an alternative to at-grade crossings. For bridges and underpasses that are used by a large proportion of pedestrians and bicyclists, studies have found that pedestrian-related crashes decreased by 91 percent.[24] However, other studies have determined that if the walking time to use an overpass is 50 percent longer than crossing the street at-grade, then the bridge or underpass will not be used and will be ineffective in reducing crashes.[25]" http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/engineering/pedestrian_and_bicycle_bridges_and_tunnels.cfm
FWIW, I'm not completely opposed to the idea of narrower lanes - I just don't think that this particular article is very convincing. I'd want to see more relevant data and perhaps actually drive on a width that they're proposing to really say. I recently voted (in a survey, not an official vote) to narrow a road near me so that they could put in a buffer between the car lanes and bike lanes. IIRC, the new width is 11ft, which is just barely wider than the "safe" zone proposed by this article, and I find it to be fine, though I wouldn't want to go too much more narrow.
On the other hand, there was a road in Atlanta that had really narrow lanes (not sure on exact measurement) because they added lanes without actually widening the road, and it was completely terrifying to drive on to the point where I'd take detours when possible. I don't know about pedestrian safety, but side-swipe accidents were pretty common on that road. They eventually removed some car lanes, widened the left-over lanes, and added buffered bike lanes, all of which I support.
Speed bumps?
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 06, 2019, 02:39:53 PM
Speed bumps?
Or these twenty things (none of which explicitly involve narrowing lanes, though some do involve fewer overall lanes for a narrower roadway or might result in narrower lanes due to the addition to bike lanes, medians, etc.):
https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/provencountermeasures/
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 06, 2019, 02:36:44 PM
What kind of fines are there? Here, it's up to $1000 as well as demerit points on your license for a first offence.
California, you're looking at $20 for first offense, $50 everyone there after. But when you add in the court costs, you're looking at about $150 for 1st and then $250 thereafter. No "points" counted against you.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 03:00:26 PM
Or these twenty things (none of which explicitly involve narrowing lanes, though some do involve fewer overall lanes for a narrower roadway or might result in narrower lanes due to the addition to bike lanes, medians, etc.):
https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/provencountermeasures/
Rumble strips work well in some situations. I've noticed a few roads here that have rumble strips approaching a stop sign. They could be used elsewhere as well.
Quote from: NomisR on June 06, 2019, 03:25:30 PM
California, you're looking at $20 for first offense, $50 everyone there after. But when you add in the court costs, you're looking at about $150 for 1st and then $250 thereafter. No "points" counted against you.
Not much of a disincentive.
Didn't Seinfeld already teach us this lesson when Kramer made "extra wide comfort lanes" on a piece of highway he adopted?
They have big speed humps with crosswalks some places here. Generally it works pretty well, people are scared to go more than 2mph over them. I have verified though that 20mph is fine :thumbsup:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 06, 2019, 08:01:40 PM
They have big speed humps with crosswalks some places here. Generally it works pretty well, people are scared to go more than 2mph over them. I have verified though that 20mph is fine :thumbsup:
Speed humps/bumps are dangerous and immoral. They must be destroyed.
I'd much rather speed humps than speed bumps. They installed a bunch of speed bumps in the parking lot access roads at work. They're super aggressive. More like small curbs than bumps.
Quote from: MX793 on June 06, 2019, 08:09:34 PM
I'd much rather speed humps than speed bumps. They installed a bunch of speed bumps in the parking lot access roads at work. They're super aggressive. More like small curbs than bumps.
You mean the cheap ass rubber ones that just screw into the road. Those things really should be illegal. I will drive right the fuck around those things and onto the sidewalk/grass/pedestrians.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on June 06, 2019, 08:17:06 PM
You mean the cheap ass rubber ones that just screw into the road. Those things really should be illegal. I will drive right the fuck around those things and onto the sidewalk/grass/pedestrians.
I dunno which ones he was referring to, but I'm thinking of "speed tables."
(http://www.internetigloo.com/wildwood/images/raised%20xwalk%202.jpg)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxr9U6dG3Bg
Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 08:37:53 PM
I dunno which ones he was referring to, but I'm thinking of "speed tables."
(http://www.internetigloo.com/wildwood/images/raised%20xwalk%202.jpg)
Oh, I like speed tables. Those are fun.
Quote from: Submariner on June 06, 2019, 08:38:37 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxr9U6dG3Bg
One of the best episodes of all time. Supreme Flounder, luxury lanes, Newman in flames. :clap:
Quote from: Laconian on June 06, 2019, 09:13:56 PM
One of the best episodes of all time. Supreme Flounder, luxury lanes, Newman in flames. :clap:
Oh, the humanity
Like anything else, whether narrower or wider lanes are better depends on the circumstances. I think overly wide lanes are counterproductive on local streets, especially in residential areas and around schools. But where higher speed driving is to be expected, like on a highway, the lanes should be wider and narrow lanes can be dangerous. In certain situations, the goal should be to slow drivers down, but in others, the goal should be to make it safer for them to drive fast.
I think it is good to have some variation on a highway, for it not to be too straight. People should be engaged in their driving. But I recognize that this is a losing battle. Cars do more and more that drivers should be doing, and drivers are less and less engaged. I think it's dangerous, and will lead to a self-fulfilling prophesy that self-driving cars are necessary for safety. I have grave doubts about this, given how many computer malfunctions I deal with on a regular basis. But our society today is stuck on stupid and there seems to be little we can do to move past that point.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 05, 2019, 06:28:02 PM
Craziness. My first time driving into Paris was in a rental car I was paranoid about, and the one-lane exit from one freeway to the "beltway" had 3 lanes of traffic on it.
Driving in Paris felt similar to driving in Mexico City.