EVs

[cawimmer430]

Personally, I am still not convinced that EVs are the future as they are still very resource-intensive, especially when it comes to battery technology.

I like the idea of CO2-free synthetic fuels. That way the internal combustion engine can live on, provide the long range (thanks to the high energy density of liquid fuels) and quick-fill-ups that we are used to and use the existing infrastructure. What's not to like about this?

This is very interesting. 




Gerlingen, Germany – Up until recently, a carbon-neutral combustion engine was the stuff of dreams. Now it may soon become reality. The secret lies in synthetic, or carbon-neutral, fuels, whose manufacturing process captures CO2. In this way, this greenhouse gas becomes a raw material, from which gasoline, diesel, and substitute natural gas can be produced with the help of electricity from renewable sources. "Synthetic fuels can make gasoline- and diesel-powered cars carbon-neutral, and thus make a significant contribution to limiting global warming," says Dr. Volkmar Denner, chairman of the board of management of Robert Bosch GmbH. Bosch experts have put an exact figure on the contribution that could be made solely by the European car fleet: by 2050, the use of synthetic fuels as a scheduled supplement to electrification could save up to 2.8 gigatons of CO2, or 2,800,000,000,000 kilograms.1 That is three times Germany's carbon-dioxide emissions in 2016.


Low-soot combustion reduces cost of exhaust-gas treatment

A look beyond Europe's borders shows how urgent it is to further reduce traffic emissions: if the climate targets set by the Paris conference are to be achieved, CO2 emissions from traffic worldwide will have to be reduced 50 percent over the next four decades, and by at least 85 percent in the advanced economies.2 "Achieving our future climate targets calls for other intelligent solutions apart from electromobility," Denner says. After all, even if all cars were to drive electrically one day, aircraft, ships, and even trucks will still run mainly on fuel. Carbon-neutral combustion engines that run on synthetic fuels are thus a very promising path to explore – also for passenger cars. In addition, synthetic fuels can be designed to burn practically soot-free. In this way, the cost of exhaust-gas treatment can be reduced.

One further crucial advantage is that the existing filling-station network can continue to be used. The same applies to the existing combustion-engine expertise. Moreover, even though electric cars will become significantly less expensive in the years ahead, the development of these fuels may be worthwhile. Bosch has calculated that, up to a lifetime mileage of 160,000 kilometers, the total cost of ownership of a hybrid running on synthetic fuel could be less than that of a long-range electric car, depending on the type of renewable energy used.



A new lease on life for filling stations and old vehicles

Technically speaking, it is already possible to manufacture synthetic fuels. If the electricity used is generated from renewables (and thus CO2-free), such fuels are carbon-neutral and very versatile. The hydrogen (H2) that is initially produced can be used to power fuel cells, while the fuels created following further processing can be used to run combustion engines or aircraft turbines. Pilot projects to commercialize synthetic diesel, gasoline, and gas are currently underway in Norway and Germany. In addition, because synthetic fuels are compatible with the existing infrastructure and engine generation, achieving a high degree of market penetration would take far less time than electrifying the existing vehicle fleet. Nor will anything change for the drivers of older vehicles, as even classic cars will still run on synthetic gasoline – in terms of chemical structure and fundamental properties, it is still gasoline.



Q&A – More about synthetic fuels


What needs to happen before synthetic fuels become established?

Despite everything, considerable efforts are still needed before synthetic fuels can become established. The processing facilities are still expensive, and there are only a few test plants. The German Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy is thus supporting synthetic fuels as part of its "Alternative energies in transportation" initiative. The widespread use of these fuels will also be helped by the increasing availability of, and thus falling prices for, electricity from renewables.


How are synthetic fuels made?

Synthetic fuels are made solely with the help of renewable energy. In a first stage, hydrogen is produced from water. Carbon is added to this to produce a liquid fuel. This carbon can be recycled from industrial processes or even captured from the air using filters. Combining CO2 and H2 then results in the synthetic fuel, which can be gasoline, diesel, gas, or even kerosene.


How expensive will the fuel be?

At the moment, producing synthetic fuels is a complex and expensive process. However, a production ramp-up and favorable electricity prices could mean that synthetic fuels become significantly cheaper. Present studies suggest that the fuel itself (excluding any excise duties) could cost between 1.00 and 1.40 euros a liter in the long run.


What's the difference between synthetic fuels and biofuels?

Synthetic fuels do not mean a choice between fuel tank and dinner plate, as biofuels do. And if renewable energy is used, synthetic fuels can be produced without the volume limitations that can be expected in the case of biofuels because of factors such as the amount of land available.


Link: https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/carbon-neutral-cars-synthetic-fuels-turn-co2-into-a-raw-material-120448.html

[shp4man]

Easy fix! Fusion reactor cracks water to hydrogen, hydrogen powers everything, the exhaust is......water!


Ok, who can get that fusion reactor going? It has to.be possible, that's what the sun runs on.

[FoMoJo]

Personally, I am still not convinced that EVs are the future as they are still very resource-intensive, especially when it comes to battery technology.

I like the idea of CO2-free synthetic fuels. That way the internal combustion engine can live on, provide the long range (thanks to the high energy density of liquid fuels) and quick-fill-ups that we are used to and use the existing infrastructure. What's not to like about this?

This is very interesting. 
>>>>>
Link: https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/carbon-neutral-cars-synthetic-fuels-turn-co2-into-a-raw-material-120448.html

CO2-free synthetic fuels seems like an ideal solution and it's good that they are looking at it as an alternative to fossil fuel.

I would hope that it can be a feasible alternative for the future.

[Laconian]

Sounds a bit like replenishing a battery, except instead of filling up a battery, it's constructing hydrocarbon chains. Where are the energy inputs going to come from?

ICEs are so freaking inefficient with so much energy lost to heat, it's probably a lot better to not do this and just use a battery w/electric motor.

[cawimmer430]

CO2-free synthetic fuels seems like an ideal solution and it's good that they are looking at it as an alternative to fossil fuel.

I would hope that it can be a feasible alternative for the future.

[cawimmer430]

Sounds a bit like replenishing a battery, except instead of filling up a battery, it's constructing hydrocarbon chains. Where are the energy inputs going to come from?

ICEs are so freaking inefficient with so much energy lost to heat, it's probably a lot better to not do this and just use a battery w/electric motor.

Personally my biggest issue with EVs are their [still relatively] short ranges and long charging times. This might not be an issue for those who take short trips and can plan their trips, but in my case I need to be mobile at all times. There are many situations that I can think of where long range and/or quick charging times are a must.

I think the issue which really puts many people off EVs are the long charging times. We're used to the easy convenience of filling up a gasoline/diesel car. On a good day this takes like what? Seven minutes including paying at the counter. Out of habit we don't want to miss that. And now we're being told to change our whole way of thinking and take a 45 minute break every 200 km while our EV charges? To me that's a step backward.

Super fast charging will apparently also never be possible with current battery technology. I saw a documentary on this issue awhile back and the engineer explained it well. We need to think of batteries as a small conference room with 100 seats. The first 80 people who enter this small room will have no problem finding a seating position. This is an analogy as to why batteries can charge quickly to 80%. But the 20 latecomers into this same room will have to look harder for a seating position - the reason why batteries charge slower from 80 to 100%.

[Laconian]

Just like you wouldn't buy an 8 passenger SUV because there is a 0.05% chance you might need to haul your neighborhood in one car, why buy a car around the 0.1% chance you'll want to do a cross-country road trip? Especially if you're like the typical household and you can get more than one car - you can have a complementary fleet, with a gas burner for trips, and an EV to get you to the office.

The average commute distance for Americans is 16mi, so 32mi round trip. Even if you double that number for doing errands or evening activities, that all fits inside a battery.

[GoCougs]

It certainly won't happen overnight and much of how energy is generated, to this point, has been rather primitive.  Our ancestors in caves were able to control fire for their purpose utilizing some sources available and a means to ignite.  We haven't really progressed that much in the source and utilization of energy.  Certainly, generating, storing and utilizing electricity is a step forward.  We even have the formula and some practical means of utilizing energy at its elemental level; but not a lot of real expertise.  Certainly, the optimal energy solution is not yet at hand and all of what we presently do is intermediate stages.  There are possibly, and more likely, sources of energy and means of utilizing it that have yet to be discovered.  Think ahead man.

Well, this is another thing the ancients got right, and we ignore it at our peril.

Sure, "look ahead" but let the market do it and get government the hell out of it.

The untold billions$ wasted on "renweables" and EVs and hybrids not only diverts from making fossil fuel use cleaner and more efficient, but also runs screen on a legit TBD solution.

[12,000 RPM]

Europeans drive even less than Americans. Truthfully, for you Wimmer, the only real hangups will be if you can't charge overnight regularly, or actually drive far on a regular basis.

I like the idea of electric cars, but at this moment the economics just don't make sense, there aren't any offerings I can afford that I like, and I'm just not convinced that BEVs are the most efficient use of batteries for reducing emissions right now. But for most people range anxiety is bullshit. I probably drive 2x as much as the average European and I could absolutely daily an EV. Hell, we are on a little getaway now... 100 miles from home, albeit at elevation. I'm sure any ~250 mile range EV could have got us here and back with charge to spare.

[cawimmer430]

For me range is still a serious issue for current EVs IMO.

The affordable ones have a range of what? Barely 300 km.

On paper.

Factor in real-world factors and needs and that range may drop by half, especially given the congestion issue of current German highways and roads where idiots force you to brake and accelerate all the time (a real power-drainer). I also like to drive spirited, and that drains the battery on EVs.

In my line of work punctuality and time are essential (the time of day is crucial for ambient light etc.) and many of my shoots often take place in nature areas where there's no charging opportunity. And let's say the battery juice held for the shoot, but after the shoot I need to recharge to head home - it's a hassle, both in terms of time and/or the fact that the few charging stations available are always occupied. This is why I want more range, for leeway purposes. I can't charge an EV in my garage, which was recently renovated but the owners decided against the construction of EV-charging-capabilities.


Furthermore the infrastructure is severely lacking in my country. On a long Autobahn trip it's not unusual to refuel at gas stations that can service 10 to 20+ cars. Imagine the space needed to handle double, triple, quadruple the amount for EVs, as they take longer to "refuel".

I am not opposed to EVs, I just feel that in their current form and with the current lacking infrastructure they are not suitable for my driving requirements. Sure, sometimes I will have projects that are local or short range, but often times I do have projects in excess of 200/250 km outside of Munich. If anyone wants to rent me a second parking space with EV-charging capacity and buy me a Renault Zoe purely for city and short range projects, then thanks!

[FoMoJo]

For me range is still a serious issue for current EVs IMO.

The affordable ones have a range of what? Barely 300 km.

On paper.

Factor in real-world factors and needs and that range may drop by half, especially given the congestion issue of current German highways and roads where idiots force you to brake and accelerate all the time (a real power-drainer). I also like to drive spirited, and that drains the battery on EVs.

In my line of work punctuality and time are essential (the time of day is crucial for ambient light etc.) and many of my shoots often take place in nature areas where there's no charging opportunity. And let's say the battery juice held for the shoot, but after the shoot I need to recharge to head home - it's a hassle, both in terms of time and/or the fact that the few charging stations available are always occupied. This is why I want more range, for leeway purposes. I can't charge an EV in my garage, which was recently renovated but the owners decided against the construction of EV-charging-capabilities.


Furthermore the infrastructure is severely lacking in my country. On a long Autobahn trip it's not unusual to refuel at gas stations that can service 10 to 20+ cars. Imagine the space needed to handle double, triple, quadruple the amount for EVs, as they take longer to "refuel".

I am not opposed to EVs, I just feel that in their current form and with the current lacking infrastructure they are not suitable for my driving requirements. Sure, sometimes I will have projects that are local or short range, but often times I do have projects in excess of 200/250 km outside of Munich. If anyone wants to rent me a second parking space with EV-charging capacity and buy me a Renault Zoe purely for city and short range projects, then thanks!

Give it another 5 to 10 years to improve the range.

[12,000 RPM]

It sounds like they wouldn't work for you at this current time then, which is fine.

But for someone with pretty routine driving habits who doesn't go far, they can make sense. For me, just never having to go to a gas station again is a huge plus. Imagine having to go to the store every couple of days to "fill up" your phone or computer for example.

Again for me the value proposition, both financially and to a degree environmentally, just isn't there yet. But I am thinking that will change soon.

[cawimmer430]

Give it another 5 to 10 years to improve the range.

Yep. 

It sounds like they wouldn't work for you at this current time then, which is fine.

But for someone with pretty routine driving habits who doesn't go far, they can make sense. For me, just never having to go to a gas station again is a huge plus. Imagine having to go to the store every couple of days to "fill up" your phone or computer for example.

Again for me the value proposition, both financially and to a degree environmentally, just isn't there yet. But I am thinking that will change soon.

Exactly. EVs, despite having been around since the early 1900s, are pretty much still in the "development phase". They will improve with time, no doubt.

Until then I want to enjoy my outdated dead-dinosaur-burning ICE car. 

[Morris Minor]

This is notable. In terms of  resources, Britain has been described as an island of coal (floating in a sea of oil.) There were still steam trains trundling around when I was really young and our house was heated via a coal (later coke) boiler. Coal was cheap and plentiful.

I wonder if they can do enough renewables to get everyone into EVs.

Britain's power grid notches up first coal-free week since the Industrial Revolution
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-05-08/british-power-grid-notches-up-first-week-of-coal-free-operation/

[MexicoCityM3]

I am pretty sure our next purchase (other than the X5 replacement) will be an EV.

[AutobahnSHO]

If they were cheaper and I still had a garage, I'd rock an EV and Minivan.

Be sweet if the EV was a Miata....   

[Laconian]

I dunno, an EV 'vert would just be a whole lotta wind noise.

[mzziaz]

For what it's worth, my wife, - who really doesn't care about cars, - love our EV. I don't think I'll ever get her back into an ICE-car.

[Morris Minor]

For what it's worth, my wife, - who really doesn't care about cars, - love our EV. I don't think I'll ever get her back into an ICE-car.

That's the big thing with EVs - people who have zero interest in cars swoon over them.

[ChrisV]

I love my Volt. Bought it back for $8k and it covers my commute and errand running while only using gas for trips to upstate NY. it starts every day with a "full tank." My buddies with Teslas have no problem driving all over. 300 miles of range and thats' up to 5 states away here.. lol. A trip from Baltimore to Philly and back can be done on one charge.

[NomisR]

For me range is still a serious issue for current EVs IMO.

The affordable ones have a range of what? Barely 300 km.

On paper.

Factor in real-world factors and needs and that range may drop by half, especially given the congestion issue of current German highways and roads where idiots force you to brake and accelerate all the time (a real power-drainer). I also like to drive spirited, and that drains the battery on EVs.

In my line of work punctuality and time are essential (the time of day is crucial for ambient light etc.) and many of my shoots often take place in nature areas where there's no charging opportunity. And let's say the battery juice held for the shoot, but after the shoot I need to recharge to head home - it's a hassle, both in terms of time and/or the fact that the few charging stations available are always occupied. This is why I want more range, for leeway purposes. I can't charge an EV in my garage, which was recently renovated but the owners decided against the construction of EV-charging-capabilities.


Furthermore the infrastructure is severely lacking in my country. On a long Autobahn trip it's not unusual to refuel at gas stations that can service 10 to 20+ cars. Imagine the space needed to handle double, triple, quadruple the amount for EVs, as they take longer to "refuel".

I am not opposed to EVs, I just feel that in their current form and with the current lacking infrastructure they are not suitable for my driving requirements. Sure, sometimes I will have projects that are local or short range, but often times I do have projects in excess of 200/250 km outside of Munich. If anyone wants to rent me a second parking space with EV-charging capacity and buy me a Renault Zoe purely for city and short range projects, then thanks!

It's not that bad, Bolt gets about 240mi, or 380km.. that's more than enough for my daily use.  I only charge at work which is about 32 miles from home.  From what I can see, there's plenty of chargers available in the Munich area and even fast chargers.  You should be fine for regular use based on the miles you drive.

[afty]

You really need to be able to charge to work or home for an EV to make sense.  But if you can do that, it's wonderful never having to go to a gas station.

[Submariner]

I love my Volt. Bought it back for $8k and it covers my commute and errand running while only using gas for trips to upstate NY. it starts every day with a "full tank." My buddies with Teslas have no problem driving all over. 300 miles of range and thats' up to 5 states away here.. lol. A trip from Baltimore to Philly and back can be done on one charge.

Good to see you back.  How have you been?

[NomisR]

You really need to be able to charge to work or home for an EV to make sense.  But if you can do that, it's wonderful never having to go to a gas station.

Definitely, if i had to rely on public chargers that's not at work, I would never consider it.  It would be scary not to  have charger at home available if needed as well.

[Morris Minor]

Nugget lifted from C&D's test (June 2019) of the Kia Niro EV, talking about the battery...
"Today's state of the art requires 1,008 pounds to house the same energy that's found in 1.9 gallons of gasoline."

1.9 gal of gas is 12 lbs.

So that's the issue. Where are we on the trade off between gasoline's unrivalled energy density and and its environmental cost?

[12,000 RPM]

There are a couple of layers to that

EVs need like 1/3 less site energy (i.e. energy put into the vehicle) to go the same distance as gasoline, give or take. Also, that battery will last over the usable life of the car, whereas gasoline has to be continually replenished. So it's not cut and dry

IMO BEVs just aren't there yet... initial cost just kills any semblence of payback and unless you charge with renewable energy the environmental benefits are marginal too. I still believe that regular old hybrids like the Prius are the best option at this point in time.

[afty]

Per fueleconomy.gov: "EVs convert about 59%–62% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels." This is why your engine gets so hot, requires a cooling system, etc.

And regarding the weight: yes batteries are heavy, but electric motors are much lighter than an engine, transmission, and driveshaft. It comes close to balancing out — a Tesla Model 3 AWD weighs only 200 lbs. more than a comparable Audi S4.

[Soup DeVille]

CO2-free synthetic fuels seems like an ideal solution and it's good that they are looking at it as an alternative to fossil fuel.

I would hope that it can be a feasible alternative for the future.

They are not CO2 free (or rather carbon free). They are, in a way though, carbon neutral- as the manufacturing of them captures as much C as the burning of them releases (for the most part).

[Morris Minor]

Trying to reconcile street parking & EV charging. It's a big challenge.
The youth of many cities in the UK express their vibrant culture through vandalism and theft. A gaggle of shitfaced yobs vomiting its way home from the pub at 2:00 AM would make short work of this.

Anyway - this is is a good idea - charging posts that hide themselves when not in use.
https://youtu.be/Frkw6aurVUY

[shp4man]

Glorified golf carts. Bah, humbug.