Wide traffic lanes are much less safe than narrow lanes

Started by Laconian, June 05, 2019, 01:39:23 PM

Laconian

Quote from: Morris Minor on June 06, 2019, 10:32:44 AM
People don't like underpasses & tunnels because of the cover they give to bad guys.

Here in Seattle, they would almost certainly turn into homeless encampments.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

CaminoRacer

Quote from: FoMoJo on June 06, 2019, 10:08:42 AM
Many back-country/rural roads up here are sort of one and a half lanes; you occupy about two thirds of the road until you see someone coming in the opposite direction and then you pull over until one side of the car is pretty much on the verge.  No need to slow down and you get past with no real drama.  Drivers are just more focused on what's happening.  Highways around where we live, Mississauga, you many be familiar, have lanes that are quite wide, yet people are wandering all over the place on them.  Crashes happen with no logical reason other than lack of attention.  I often get worried that someone in the other lane may just wander over and bump me in the side.



No way, those roads are awful. Lots of mountain roads around here are like that and it's downright dangerous to be a motorcycle on them. You'll go around a corner and get blindsided by a Suburban taking up the whole road
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

BimmerM3

Quote from: FoMoJo on June 06, 2019, 10:41:24 AM
Our crosswalks here, seems most of them, have flashing amber lights when the pedestrian presses the button before crossing.

Yup, that's exactly what I'm talking about. At least around here, people (anecdotally) seem to be really good at stopping for them.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Morris Minor on June 06, 2019, 10:32:44 AM
People don't like underpasses & tunnels because of the cover they give to bad guys.
Not to mention the cost! Imagine pedestrian bridges and tunnels in NYC. Handicapped accessible ones at that. No way. Just make the road lanes narrower so everyone slows the hell down and pays attention to what they're doing. Crosswalk design can be improved as well without giving pedestrians their own separate roadways.

Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

CaminoRacer

I really don't think narrow lanes will just solve everything. This study is far from a solid conclusion.

Pedestrians crossing at intersections with crosswalks and traffic lights is near flawless without making driving more stressful.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

BimmerM3

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 06, 2019, 11:25:27 AM
Not to mention the cost! Imagine pedestrian bridges and tunnels in NYC. Handicapped accessible ones at that. No way. Just make the road lanes narrower so everyone slows the hell down and pays attention to what they're doing. Crosswalk design can be improved as well without giving pedestrians their own separate roadways.

Yeah, obviously it's not practical for every situation. But a pedestrian bridge is a perfect solution to little kids crossing a giant Florida road.

FoMoJo

Quote from: CaminoRacer on June 06, 2019, 11:02:38 AM
No way, those roads are awful. Lots of mountain roads around here are like that and it's downright dangerous to be a motorcycle on them. You'll go around a corner and get blindsided by a Suburban taking up the whole road
Maybe, but it keeps you alert, I bet.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

12,000 RPM

Quote from: CaminoRacer on June 06, 2019, 11:33:18 AM
I really don't think narrow lanes will just solve everything. This study is far from a solid conclusion.

Pedestrians crossing at intersections with crosswalks and traffic lights is near flawless without making driving more stressful.
Nobody said it would be a catch all. Pedestrian deaths are rising and this is one way to combat that.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Laconian

Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 11:54:24 AM
Yeah, obviously it's not practical for every situation. But a pedestrian bridge is a perfect solution to little kids crossing a giant Florida road.

Well... maybe not in Florida.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/11/15/ntsb-miami-bridge-collapse-design-errors/2012020002/
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

NomisR

People simply need to pay attention to actual driving and not be on the phone.  Regardless of how wide of the road, people are paying less and less attention to driving and more to their phone.  I've seen people swerve for no reason regardless of how wide the lane is, at least with wider lanes, they're still within their own lane rather than coming into mine forcing me to swerve.  And even if they do come into my lane, with wide lanes, I have enough space to avoid them without crashing into someone else. 

FoMoJo

Quote from: NomisR on June 06, 2019, 12:32:21 PM
People simply need to pay attention to actual driving and not be on the phone.  Regardless of how wide of the road, people are paying less and less attention to driving and more to their phone.  I've seen people swerve for no reason regardless of how wide the lane is, at least with wider lanes, they're still within their own lane rather than coming into mine forcing me to swerve.  And even if they do come into my lane, with wide lanes, I have enough space to avoid them without crashing into someone else. 
Is being on the phone while driving not illegal in most/all states?
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

93JC

Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 11:54:24 AM
Yeah, obviously it's not practical for every situation. But a pedestrian bridge is a perfect solution to little kids crossing a giant Florida road.

Building bridges, underpasses and the like is part of the issue, not a solution to it. It makes walking more arduous than it has to be and encourages pedestrians to jaywalk. (across a humongous road, which is more dangerous, etc etc)

CaminoRacer

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 06, 2019, 11:57:09 AM
Nobody said it would be a catch all. Pedestrian deaths are rising and this is one way to combat that.

Why are the deaths rising? Have the lanes been getting wider? Or is it due to other factors... Like smart phones usage by both drivers and pedestrians
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

NomisR

Quote from: FoMoJo on June 06, 2019, 12:49:47 PM
Is being on the phone while driving not illegal in most/all states?

I would say so.  So's speeding.

BimmerM3

Quote from: 93JC on June 06, 2019, 12:50:30 PM
Building bridges, underpasses and the like is part of the issue, not a solution to it. It makes walking more arduous than it has to be and encourages pedestrians to jaywalk. (across a humongous road, which is more dangerous, etc etc)

Depends on how they're built and where they're put.

"The effectiveness depends largely on the likelihood that they will be used by pedestrians and bicyclists as an alternative to at-grade crossings. For bridges and underpasses that are used by a large proportion of pedestrians and bicyclists, studies have found that pedestrian-related crashes decreased by 91 percent.[24] However, other studies have determined that if the walking time to use an overpass is 50 percent longer than crossing the street at-grade, then the bridge or underpass will not be used and will be ineffective in reducing crashes.[25]" http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/engineering/pedestrian_and_bicycle_bridges_and_tunnels.cfm



FWIW, I'm not completely opposed to the idea of narrower lanes - I just don't think that this particular article is very convincing. I'd want to see more relevant data and perhaps actually drive on a width that they're proposing to really say. I recently voted (in a survey, not an official vote) to narrow a road near me so that they could put in a buffer between the car lanes and bike lanes. IIRC, the new width is 11ft, which is just barely wider than the "safe" zone proposed by this article, and I find it to be fine, though I wouldn't want to go too much more narrow.

On the other hand, there was a road in Atlanta that had really narrow lanes (not sure on exact measurement) because they added lanes without actually widening the road, and it was completely terrifying to drive on to the point where I'd take detours when possible. I don't know about pedestrian safety, but side-swipe accidents were pretty common on that road. They eventually removed some car lanes, widened the left-over lanes, and added buffered bike lanes, all of which I support.

FoMoJo

Quote from: NomisR on June 06, 2019, 02:33:46 PM
I would say so.  So's speeding.
What kind of fines are there?  Here, it's up to $1000 as well as demerit points on your license for a first offence.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

FoMoJo

Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 02:36:21 PM
Depends on how they're built and where they're put.

"The effectiveness depends largely on the likelihood that they will be used by pedestrians and bicyclists as an alternative to at-grade crossings. For bridges and underpasses that are used by a large proportion of pedestrians and bicyclists, studies have found that pedestrian-related crashes decreased by 91 percent.[24] However, other studies have determined that if the walking time to use an overpass is 50 percent longer than crossing the street at-grade, then the bridge or underpass will not be used and will be ineffective in reducing crashes.[25]" http://guide.saferoutesinfo.org/engineering/pedestrian_and_bicycle_bridges_and_tunnels.cfm



FWIW, I'm not completely opposed to the idea of narrower lanes - I just don't think that this particular article is very convincing. I'd want to see more relevant data and perhaps actually drive on a width that they're proposing to really say. I recently voted (in a survey, not an official vote) to narrow a road near me so that they could put in a buffer between the car lanes and bike lanes. IIRC, the new width is 11ft, which is just barely wider than the "safe" zone proposed by this article, and I find it to be fine, though I wouldn't want to go too much more narrow.

On the other hand, there was a road in Atlanta that had really narrow lanes (not sure on exact measurement) because they added lanes without actually widening the road, and it was completely terrifying to drive on to the point where I'd take detours when possible. I don't know about pedestrian safety, but side-swipe accidents were pretty common on that road. They eventually removed some car lanes, widened the left-over lanes, and added buffered bike lanes, all of which I support.
Speed bumps?
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

BimmerM3

Quote from: FoMoJo on June 06, 2019, 02:39:53 PM
Speed bumps?

Or these twenty things (none of which explicitly involve narrowing lanes, though some do involve fewer overall lanes for a narrower roadway or might result in narrower lanes due to the addition to bike lanes, medians, etc.):

https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/provencountermeasures/

NomisR

Quote from: FoMoJo on June 06, 2019, 02:36:44 PM
What kind of fines are there?  Here, it's up to $1000 as well as demerit points on your license for a first offence.

California, you're looking at $20 for first offense, $50 everyone there after.  But when you add in the court costs, you're looking at about $150 for 1st and then $250 thereafter.  No "points" counted against you.

FoMoJo

Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 03:00:26 PM
Or these twenty things (none of which explicitly involve narrowing lanes, though some do involve fewer overall lanes for a narrower roadway or might result in narrower lanes due to the addition to bike lanes, medians, etc.):

https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/provencountermeasures/
Rumble strips work well in some situations.  I've noticed a few roads here that have rumble strips approaching a stop sign.  They could be used elsewhere as well.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

FoMoJo

Quote from: NomisR on June 06, 2019, 03:25:30 PM
California, you're looking at $20 for first offense, $50 everyone there after.  But when you add in the court costs, you're looking at about $150 for 1st and then $250 thereafter.  No "points" counted against you.
Not much of a disincentive.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Didn't Seinfeld already teach us this lesson when Kramer made "extra wide comfort lanes" on a piece of highway he adopted?
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

AutobahnSHO

They have big speed humps with crosswalks some places here. Generally it works pretty well, people are scared to go more than 2mph over them. I have verified though that 20mph is fine :thumbsup:
Will

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 06, 2019, 08:01:40 PM
They have big speed humps with crosswalks some places here. Generally it works pretty well, people are scared to go more than 2mph over them. I have verified though that 20mph is fine :thumbsup:

Speed humps/bumps are dangerous and immoral. They must be destroyed.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

MX793

I'd much rather speed humps than speed bumps.  They installed a bunch of speed bumps in the parking lot access roads at work.  They're super aggressive.  More like small curbs than bumps.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: MX793 on June 06, 2019, 08:09:34 PM
I'd much rather speed humps than speed bumps.  They installed a bunch of speed bumps in the parking lot access roads at work.  They're super aggressive.  More like small curbs than bumps.

You mean the cheap ass rubber ones that just screw into the road. Those things really should be illegal. I will drive right the fuck around those things and onto the sidewalk/grass/pedestrians.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

BimmerM3

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on June 06, 2019, 08:17:06 PM
You mean the cheap ass rubber ones that just screw into the road. Those things really should be illegal. I will drive right the fuck around those things and onto the sidewalk/grass/pedestrians.

I dunno which ones he was referring to, but I'm thinking of "speed tables."



Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: BimmerM3 on June 06, 2019, 08:37:53 PM
I dunno which ones he was referring to, but I'm thinking of "speed tables."



Oh, I like speed tables. Those are fun.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

Laconian

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