My recent bike buying experience has me wondering: Why, excluding repli-racers, does stepping down to a middle-weight sized engine class mean stepping down to lower-end suspension hardware? Why does no one offer a middle-weight sport/sport-touring bike with a fully, or near-fully, adjustable suspension? On most, you're lucky to get 2 out of 6 possible adjustments. Many don't even offer that. Granted, my "big boy" Bandit only offers 3 (front preload, rear preload and rebound), but that was a budget bike priced well under other liter+ sized bikes (most of which offered 5/6 adjustments) on the market at the time. You can make the price argument for some of the middleweight bikes, like the SFV650, FZ6R, or Ninja 650, which are priced thousands lower than any liter-class bike out there. The SFV and Ninja have only rear preload, the Fazer makes do with no adjustment at all. Hey, you get what you pay for and the truth of it is that a smaller engine isn't that much cheaper to make than a larger one, particularly when you're comparing engines of similar cylinder counts. Gotta shed those dollars somewhere, and if it's not in the motor, it's gotta come from the suspension and chassis. I get that. But then you have bikes like the BMW F800GT and Honda VFR800, each of which only offer 2 adjustments (rear preload and rebound), but cost much more. Like 50% more (which puts you squarely into liter-bike price territory).
What got me thinking about this is that one of the criteria I was looking for in a new bike was better suspension hardware with more adjustability. In terms of power, I'd be pretty content with a 75-85 hp middle-weight, particularly if we're talking about a bike that's 70-100 (or more) lbs lighter than what I'm used to. Fact is, the Bandit's ~100 hp (albeit served with savory gobs of low to midrange grunt) was, in my mind, bordering on stupid fast. Not to say it didn't put a smile on my face, but I rarely actually tapped into its full power. And as I write that, I contemplate the fact that my chosen replacement weighs 10% less and has 40% more power...
Leaves me to wish that manufacturers offered optional factory suspension upgrades on their middle weight sport/sport-tourers and standard/nakeds. Triumph does it with the Street Triple via the "R" model, which is sold at only a $600 premium over the standard model (which has only rear preload adjustment). Makes me wonder why other companies don't follow suit on their more affordable middle-weights. Something like the new CBR650F would be a very appealing prospect if, for an extra $600-$750, you could get fully, or near fully, adjustable suspension from the factory. It would still be far from stepping on the CBR600RR repli-racer's toes in both price and performance. For the person who wants a middle-weight sport/sport-touring bike that is capable but not as hardcore as the RR, it would make it that much better. A Ninja 800, essentially the same concept as the N1K but based on the smaller Z800, would be an interesting offering as well. Especially if made available with the N1K's optional and well-integrated panniers. As would a fully faired version of the FZ-09 with ABS and an extra gallon of fuel capacity.
And in the case of the aforementioned F800GT and VFR800, at their $12K+ price point, that sort of hardware should be standard. The completely unadjustable fork is inexcusable. Even the Bandit (and its fully faired replacement) offered front preload adjustment. The VFR doesn't even have standard ABS (that's part of a $1000 option package), which is pretty much unheard of for a bike marketed as a "sport tourer" these days, let alone one costing that much. Further, under the new bodywork, the VFR is largely the same bike it was 12 years ago. You'd think they could either drop the price or add more content after that many years of producing the same bike.
What kind of adjustability are you looking for? Adjustable preload, rebound and compression independently?
Why not just buy the bike you want and go aftermarket?
Quote from: MrH on April 26, 2014, 12:46:48 PM
What kind of adjustability are you looking for? Adjustable preload, rebound and compression independently?
Yes
QuoteWhy not just buy the bike you want and go aftermarket?
There is very, very little out there in terms of aftermarket motorcycle forks outside of the repli-racer and off-road segments (both of which come with fully adjustable forks). Much of what is out there are upgrades for internals, not complete fork assemblies. And they tend not to be cheap. Upgraded fork internals (the actual damper assembly) from Ohlins run $1200+. Prices from other companies seem similar. Ohlins sells complete fork assemblies for select supersports and those run $2500+.
The other option is to try to adapt the forks off of another bike that offers full adjustability onto a bike that doesn't, but that can get expensive in a hurry. A set of new, OEM forks for a Gixxer 600 will set you back over $2K. And then, if you're trying to fit them to, say, a Bandit like mine, you'll have to replace the entire steering assembly (both triple clamps), possibly with something custom. There may also be issues fitting the front brake calipers, which may also mean either some custom bracketry or entirely new calipers ($600+). You may have to revalve or re-spring them since they originally came off a much lighter bike, which is at least another $1K. Lot of work, lot of money. Granted, you can recoup some of it by selling the OEM hardware you removed, assuming you can find a buyer.
Rear shocks are pretty widely available for a lot of different models, but aren't necessarily cheap. An Ohlins aftermarket shock for my Bandit is over $1200 and offers no more adjustment than the stock unit. A Penske unit runs about the same.
Are upgraded forks not common simply due to lack of demand?
Quote from: hotrodalex on April 26, 2014, 04:52:46 PM
Are upgraded forks not common simply due to lack of demand?
Possibly. My guess is a lot of people just deal with whatever the bike has. People involved in competition/racing want the adjustability, hence why the aftermarket focuses mostly on repli-racers and dirtbikes (and why both types of bikes almost always come with fully adjustable suspenders from the factory). For the street, once you find a setting that works for you, you aren't apt to change it much, particularly the forks. For the rear, you may want to fiddle with it a little if you're riding 2-up vs solo. At the very least you'll want to increase the rear spring preload to keep the bike from squatting too much with the added weight of a passenger when riding 2-up (and then back it down again when riding solo).
I want the added adjustability because I suspect the roads around here are a bit rougher (particularly the prevalence of frost heaves) than what most bike manufacturer's set their suspensions up for. The repeated jolts from sharp frost heaves can really take their toll on your back on a long ride. My dad's FJR has a fully adjustable suspension and he likes to tinker with suspension clickers (got a fair bit of experience in his many years of riding and racing off-road bikes), so he took the time to dial that bike in. Last time I rode his bike, I immediately noticed how much better it absorbed the frost heaves that would buck my bike and send a nice jolt up my spine. A longer wheelbase and considerably higher weight on his bike may have helped too...
Quote from: MX793 on April 26, 2014, 04:33:14 PM
Yes
There is very, very little out there in terms of aftermarket motorcycle forks outside of the repli-racer and off-road segments (both of which come with fully adjustable forks). Much of what is out there are upgrades for internals, not complete fork assemblies. And they tend not to be cheap. Upgraded fork internals (the actual damper assembly) from Ohlins run $1200+. Prices from other companies seem similar. Ohlins sells complete fork assemblies for select supersports and those run $2500+.
The other option is to try to adapt the forks off of another bike that offers full adjustability onto a bike that doesn't, but that can get expensive in a hurry. A set of new, OEM forks for a Gixxer 600 will set you back over $2K. And then, if you're trying to fit them to, say, a Bandit like mine, you'll have to replace the entire steering assembly (both triple clamps), possibly with something custom. There may also be issues fitting the front brake calipers, which may also mean either some custom bracketry or entirely new calipers ($600+). You may have to revalve or re-spring them since they originally came off a much lighter bike, which is at least another $1K. Lot of work, lot of money. Granted, you can recoup some of it by selling the OEM hardware you removed, assuming you can find a buyer.
Rear shocks are pretty widely available for a lot of different models, but aren't necessarily cheap. An Ohlins aftermarket shock for my Bandit is over $1200 and offers no more adjustment than the stock unit. A Penske unit runs about the same.
Independent rebound and compression damping adjustability is rare for any vehicle. They exist, but mostly only for race applications, and are incredibly expensive to make. Is this common on high end bikes?
Quote from: MrH on April 27, 2014, 12:40:58 PM
Independent rebound and compression damping adjustability is rare for any vehicle. They exist, but mostly only for race applications, and are incredibly expensive to make. Is this common on high end bikes?
Yes. All repli-racers and MX bikes and many (most?) higher end performance and sport touring bikes offer independent rebound and compression adjustment on the forks. All MX bikes and most (?) repli-racers also have independent compression and rebound on the rear. Other types of bikes more often only have rebound adjustment, if they have anything. Motocross bikes not only offer independent compression and rebound damping, but also have separate adjustments for high and low speed compression damping on the rear shock.
Seems like the cheaper option would be just to step up to one of the higher end bikes?
Sounds kind of like wanting leather seats in a Versa. Market just isn't there to justify such a high end feature for that price point.
Quote from: MrH on April 27, 2014, 04:29:29 PM
Seems like the cheaper option would be just to step up to one of the higher end bikes?
Sounds kind of like wanting leather seats in a Versa. Market just isn't there to justify such a high end feature for that price point.
It is. But not everybody is comfortable (or experienced enough to be) riding a supersport or a 650+ lbs sport touring bike or a 130+ hp liter-class naked/sportbike. Yet I think they would benefit from having the added suspension adjustability. And, as I noted in my original post, there are some middleweight classed bikes that are priced comparable to liter-bike class machines but still don't offer adjustable forks (which practically all of the liter-bikes have). The Honda VFR800 sportbike starts at $12.5K and the "deluxe" model with ABS and TCS goes for $13.5K. The forks are completely non-adjustable on either trim. Meanwhile, an FZ-1 sport/standard goes for just under $11K and has fully adjustable forks as standard. As do the $12K Ninja 1000 sportbike (a similar type of bike to the Honda, but a larger engine class), the $12K Kawasaki Z1000 naked bike, and the Triumph Speed Triple 1050cc naked priced at $12.8K. The 800cc BMW sport tourer likewise is priced just under $12K (before adding options) and has a non-adjustable fork. If at the same price point, why does having a smaller engine seem to disqualify the bike from having better suspension HW? That's what I don't get.
I am surprised you didn't look at the VFR800. I think those are fully adjustable. They just came back to the states this year, I think.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 04, 2014, 05:09:17 PM
I am surprised you didn't look at the VFR800. I think those are fully adjustable. They just came back to the states this year, I think.
Nope. The "revived" (largely the same as it was back in '01) VFR800 has non-adjustable forks. What further surprised me is that the VFR1200 also has non-adjustable forks.
Quote from: MX793 on May 04, 2014, 05:29:55 PM
Nope. The "revived" (largely the same as it was back in '01) VFR800 has non-adjustable forks. What further surprised me is that the VFR1200 also has non-adjustable forks.
Wow they are charging an arm and a leg for those too. That's pretty ridiculous.
I don't know about needing full on adjustability but being able to adjust compression with oil weight and then fine tune rebound front and rear would be nice. Especially if the basic damping curve was digressive enough.