Supposedly it's coming out this year? Let's talk about it.
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-cybertruck-went-from-exoskeleton-marvel-to-unibody-honda-ridgeline-competitor-214263.html
Apparently the "stressed steel" construction that was going to revolutionize the economics of truck manufacturing is no longer an aspect of the CT's design. It's a conventional unibody "truck" with stainless panels.
They made all of those under-skin changes but didn't change the worst part - the design. Oof
Overpromise, under-deliver. The Elon Way.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 06, 2023, 11:58:13 AMThey made all of those under-skin changes but didn't change the worst part - the design. Oof
Right, the design was pitched as "form follows function", and the strong stainless steel panels were chosen specifically to support the function of holding the car together.
It's good to see that they're practicing forms of efficiency, like combining the sunroof with the windshield. Should save a few bucks there.
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 06, 2023, 01:10:52 PMIt's good to see that they're practicing forms of efficiency, like combining the sunroof with the windshield. Should save a few bucks there.
Not at all. Giant pieces of glass strong enough for automotive duty are not cheap. At all. Tesla windshields are notoriously expensive to replace...like 3-4x the cost of more "normal" windshields.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 06, 2023, 11:58:13 AMThey made all of those under-skin changes but didn't change the worst part - the design. Oof
Changes? This proves that up to this point, all Cyber Trucks were a prop - i.e., there was nothing to change.
As if I couldn't have any less respect for Tesla, then here comes the lies of Cyber Truck (that will go 100% unpunished).
It was a dumb concept they threw together last minute that they're trying to make into a production car. There was zero innovation or thought behind why an "exo skeleton" would make sense or be a good idea. It was just the science fair project they did the night before to pump the stock.
Got my name down for one but I'm something like 7 million in line.
I wasn't interested until I got the Model Y. The Model Y is a seriously impressive machine that blew me away and I figure by the time my cybertruck order comes up they'd be several years into production by then.
:wtf:
Cybertruck wiper being delivered.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvONEXJWIAYKk_2?format=jpg&name=medium)
Quote from: Morris Minor on May 07, 2023, 03:45:31 PMCybertruck wiper being delivered.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvONEXJWIAYKk_2?format=jpg&name=medium)
niiiiiiiiiiice
Quote from: MrH on May 07, 2023, 08:26:43 AMIt was a dumb concept they threw together last minute that they're trying to make into a production car. There was zero innovation or thought behind why an "exo skeleton" would make sense or be a good idea. It was just the science fair project they did the night before to pump the stock.
And the lie of course worked like a champ to pump both the stock and pre orders. It's yet another Tesla crime that will go unpunished by all - market, regulators and buyers alike.
I thought this was a troll when first aired but it's obviously true now. Seriously, WTF are you doing working at these companies if you're an engineer and know anything.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qpCYyC6xm-g
Wow, Elon's got a big belly in that interview.
https://old.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/13d1glx/elon_cybertruck_got_stuck_in_south_texas_had_to/
Are they still driving earlyprototypes around, so close to the "release date"?
Wait. A Ridgeline needing to be saved by an actual truck? No way.
Bottom photo is of the bed in the "preproduction" model.
vpnoek2vefqb1.jpg
Just cut the roof off the back a Model Y and you can have the same thing
There are @ 2 million pre-orders for the Cybertruck. To put that in perspective, I believe there were 200,000 preorders for the F-150 Lightning before Ford closed it off. I don't know what percentage but probably at least 50% and maybe much more of the Lightning preorders were cancelled but that was because Ford pulled a Ford and jacked up the price by 20 grand only to eat crow and decrease it by 10 grand after, guess what, no one wanted their truck anymore.
Even if 75% of the preorders for the Cybertruck are cancelled, that's still 500 thousand sales. How long it will take Tesla to make those 500 thousand trucks I'm not sure but...one thing Tesla knows how to do is price their vehicles to kill their competition.
Whether or not the fit and finish looks not so good, I don't think will make a difference. Most guys I know who have a Model Y or Model S will gladly replace it with a Cybertruck because guys like trucks and this variant will get a rolled eye approval from the wife because it's a Tesla.
Given the low cost of the preorder, the refundability of the pre-order, and the complete lack of details as to what the Cybertruck would actually be or how much it would actually cost, I think that the preorder volume is a weak proxy for actual demand at launch. The CT was originally promised to be a $40k truck. It's not going to be priced anywhere near that when it does come out.
It makes for good PR though, and it's a very cheap loan on extremely favorable terms for Tesla!
Imagine if preorders cost just a dollar and two billion people "got in line".
Quote from: veeman on September 25, 2023, 01:13:22 PMThere are @ 2 million pre-orders for the Cybertruck. To put that in perspective, I believe there were 200,000 preorders for the F-150 Lightning before Ford closed it off. I don't know what percentage but probably at least 50% and maybe much more of the Lightning preorders were cancelled but that was because Ford pulled a Ford and jacked up the price by 20 grand only to eat crow and decrease it by 10 grand after, guess what, no one wanted their truck anymore.
Even if 75% of the preorders for the Cybertruck are cancelled, that's still 500 thousand sales. How long it will take Tesla to make those 500 thousand trucks I'm not sure but...one thing Tesla knows how to do is price their vehicles to kill their competition.
Whether or not the fit and finish looks not so good, I don't think will make a difference. Most guys I know who have a Model Y or Model S will gladly replace it with a Cybertruck because guys like trucks and this variant will get a rolled eye approval from the wife because it's a Tesla.
Lol! 25% of reservations are not converting.
We should have a betting pool for the specs, price point, and sales figures.
It really is crazy, the lack of information so late in the game.
Tesla won't release power numbers on the new "Highland" Model 3, either.
My son saw one in Cupertino the other day.
"It's pretty ugly in person. The corners on the back are really harsh"
Snapped this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/g27Dj4kn/cybertruck.jpg)
Quote from: Laconian on September 25, 2023, 01:34:15 PMWe should have a betting pool for the specs, price point, and sales figures.
It really is crazy, the lack of information so late in the game.
Tesla won't release power numbers on the new "Highland" Model 3, either.
I will gladly bet a lot of money if people want to set the line :lol:
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 25, 2023, 01:57:56 PMMy son saw one in Cupertino the other day.
"It's pretty ugly in person. The corners on the back are really harsh"
Snapped this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/g27Dj4kn/cybertruck.jpg)
The digital camo is to deprive the peanut gallery of snark fodder. Can't critique the panel alignment if you can't see the panels!
Quote from: Laconian on September 25, 2023, 12:50:04 PMBottom photo is of the bed in the "preproduction" model.
vpnoek2vefqb1.jpg
Doesn't look like you'll be fitting a 4-wheeler in that bed like they have pictured in the renders on the website. lolol
Quote from: giant_mtb on September 25, 2023, 02:19:53 PMDoesn't look like you'll be fitting a 4-wheeler in that bed like they have pictured in the renders on the website. lolol
By Tesla 4-wheeler, I'm assuming you mean the rebadged Yamaha they rolled out on stage? :lol:
I'm not going to set the betting line:)
The Cybertruck has three versions; single motor RWD, dual motor AWD, and tri motor AWD. After the initial priciest version come out, my guess is the single motor RWD will be 50 grand and the dual motor AWD will be 60 grand. Especially with EV tax credits, it will be I think about 10 grand more than a model Y.
Elon will not price the single motor RWD more than the base model Lightning which is $49995.
So I think a middle aged guy who currently has a 50 grand Model Y will seriously think about forking over 60 grand for a Cybertruck after paying off his model Y. Because that guy will think paying slightly over a grand a month is not much more than the current grand a month he is paying for his Model Y.
Quote from: veeman on September 25, 2023, 03:17:24 PMI'm not going to set the betting line:)
The Cybertruck has three versions; single motor RWD, dual motor AWD, and tri motor AWD. After the initial priciest version come out, my guess is the single motor RWD will be 50 grand and the dual motor AWD will be 60 grand. Especially with EV tax credits, it will be I think about 10 grand more than a model Y.
Elon will not price the single motor RWD more than the base model Lightning which is $49995.
So I think a middle aged guy who currently has a 50 grand Model Y will seriously think about forking over 60 grand for a Cybertruck after paying off his model Y. Because that guy will think paying slightly over a grand a month is not much more than the current grand a month he is paying for his Model Y.
Actually, there are zero versions :lol: These are all just ideas, just like the Roadster that's going to fly, robotaxis, Optimus robots, etc.
How many Cybertrucks do you think they'll sell this year? How about Q1 of 2024?
Quote from: MrH on September 25, 2023, 04:09:15 PMActually, there are zero versions :lol: These are all just ideas, just like the Roadster that's going to fly, robotaxis, Optimus robots, etc.
How many Cybertrucks do you think they'll sell this year? How about Q1 of 2024?
I think they will sell < 200 by the end of the first quarter of 2024. By the time the next POTUS takes office (early 2025) they will be selling 25 thousand a quarter. I think this will coincide (early 2025) with Ford and GM asking govt for bailout of their EV divisions.
jdbbtnyu4jqb1.jpg
The interwebs are going to explode with videos of these being coal-rolled, vandalized & graffitirized, by the brethren of the pickup truck community.
Haha. How could it not be a traget? It looks so awful.
Honestly I think it looks great and I'm not a Tesla fanboy. Great idea to make it slightly smaller than original design making it much more real world public road and garage friendly. While it may be a fingerprint magnet, that color (silver) also hides dirt/grime the best. This car will also likely be one of if not the safest car on the road given it's weight, the low center of gravity of EVs, and likely large crush zones. Other problems with trucks of this size (fuel economy and large turning radius) are also not an issue given its an EV and standard across all models rear-wheel steering.
Most guys I think will gladly hand in the keys to their Model 3 or Model Y to get this car and most wives, I think, will, without admitting it, be happy their geeky husband feels and looks a bit more masculine with this car. This car blurs the line between small dick energy and cool. Some will think the former. Others will think the latter. This car blurs the line between practical and purely fun car. It's rear seating area is not small, it's just small enough to fit in a standard size garage (within the U.S.), and it's not a pain in the ass to maneuver in small spaces.
The only questions for me are will the NVH suck and how bad is the fit and finish going to be. Going by history, the typical Tesla buyer (of which there are a lot) has been willing to put up with poor fit and finish of the Model 3 and Model Y and most of them are tolerating (albeit griping a bit) of the poor ride quality of the Model Y.
Also Teslas are a bit less prone to random vandalizing because most people are aware those cars often have (or perhaps always come with) outside video camera surveillance.
There are 2 million people who handed over 100 bucks for a pre-order. All of them knew what the Cybertruck looked like prior to handing over their deposit and the actual rendition is faithful to the original design shown. I admit I'm wrong about 75% of people rescinding their deposit. It will be a far higher percentage. But even if 95% rescind their deposit, that's still 100,000 cars already spoken for. And because of the lack of dealership model of Tesla, there is no bullshit dealership markup on highly sought after cars which is business as usual for Ford/GM.
The preorders are cheap and refundable, not a strong demand signal. And they were made when the Cybertruck would start at $39,900. It's definitely not going to be that cheap.
Quote from: Laconian on September 27, 2023, 11:05:51 AMThe preorders are cheap and refundable, not a strong demand signal. And they were made when the Cybertruck would start at $39,900. It's definitely not going to be that cheap.
It'll be 10 grand more, for RWD single motor model, because I don't think Musk will price his truck significantly higher than the Lightning. They may not get around to making those cheaper versions until latter half of 2024 or even first quarter of 2025 but the factory (or outdoor tent) wheels are turning.
Given the starting price of base model Y is $47490 and $54490 for the performance model, it's not significantly different. And that's before potential $7500 federal tax credit.
If 1 out of 20 of those early depositers goes through with it, that's still 100,000 trucks already spoken for.
Quote from: veeman on September 27, 2023, 11:53:12 AMIt'll be 10 grand more, for RWD single motor model, because I don't think Musk will price his truck significantly higher than the Lightning. They may not get around to making those cheaper versions until latter half of 2024 or even first quarter of 2025 but the factory (or outdoor tent) wheels are turning.
Given the starting price of base model Y is $47490 and $54490 for the performance model, it's not significantly different. And that's before potential $7500 federal tax credit.
If 1 out of 20 of those early depositers goes through with it, that's still 100,000 trucks already spoken for.
And Ford will continue to sell well over half a million F-series trucks annually.
Quote from: giant_mtb on September 27, 2023, 12:36:37 PMAnd Ford will continue to sell well over half a million F-series trucks annually.
Yes.
My question is how many Lightnings will Ford sell annually?
The soon coming (within 1.5 to 2 year I predict) bailouts for GM and Ford will be for their EV divisions. They both make and I think will continue to make great profit on their ICE pickup and SUV portfolio.
The media and Ford and GM themselves reporting that all of their R&D is towards their EV division is a big error in judgement on their part, unless that's false information.
Detroit was screwed either way. They see Tesla seemingly rewriting the rules of the US auto industry, but Detroit is smart enough to know that's because it's Tesla, not because of EVs. So Detroit tiptoes into EVs, to be prepared for government mandates, and though it hasn't been a disaster, turns out there is no legit success (profitability) in sight without a mangled if not busted UAW, massive government bailouts and a complete restructuring of the US auto industry, including infrastructure (from fueling, to dealer/repair network, to the supplier base). However, had Detroit not tiptoed into EVs, they'd have been BBQ'd by various sociopolitical forces, and if mandates then became a thing, they'd be 5-10 years behind, sealing their fate.
Seems Toyota and Honda played it about right (as of now - could change), since they're not beholden to the UAW nor to the US government (or at least not the extent Detroit is).
https://www.thedrive.com/news/even-the-tesla-cybertrucks-brake-lights-dont-make-sense
The CHMSL reinvented from cost-conscious First Principles(TM)
Nah man, that's just like, the genius of Elon, man. Less lights means, like, less speed.
https://twitter.com/DimaZeniuk/status/1716556240908681538
Production ready off-roading. What's that banging sound??
Musk once called the Model X an exercise in hubris.
I think this is the same.
I was wracking my brain to think of an equivalent and came up with the Hummer H2; the Cybertruck is to the 2020s as the H2 was to the 20-aughts.
The size of this A-pillar :lol: ! This is just a total train wreck
(https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/webp/2023/05/Tesla-Cybertruck-00001-1543x2048.webp)
Quote from: Laconian on November 01, 2023, 10:38:36 AMhttps://twitter.com/DimaZeniuk/status/1716556240908681538
Production ready off-roading. What's that banging sound??
Sounded like someone banging on the Jeep.
But I'll bet that Jeep can get up hills no way this thing will....
Quote from: Laconian on November 01, 2023, 10:38:36 AMhttps://twitter.com/DimaZeniuk/status/1716556240908681538
Production ready off-roading. What's that banging sound??
Pretty sure the banging is coming from the guy untying/tying down that Jeep on the trailer she pans to at the end. lol
I like the other Tesla models, but I have not seen a single redeeming feature of the Cybertruck. Still a complete WTF.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 01, 2023, 01:24:35 PMI like the other Tesla models, but I have not seen a single redeeming feature of the Cybertruck. Still a complete WTF.
Ditto.. form over function in so many important places where competitors put function over form. I'm super curious if the the 45 degree sloped sides of the payload are going to make it to production.
Quote from: MrH on November 01, 2023, 11:08:37 AMThe size of this A-pillar :lol: ! This is just a total train wreck
(https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/webp/2023/05/Tesla-Cybertruck-00001-1543x2048.webp)
Doesn't look like much room between the front of the seat and the front edge of the door, unless I'm seeing the trailing edge of the front door in the photo
Quote from: Rich on November 01, 2023, 03:18:27 PMDoesn't look like much room between the front of the seat and the front edge of the door, unless I'm seeing the trailing edge of the front door in the photo
Yeah that's the trailing edge. You can see the latch/lock mechanism.
I've had issues with crosswalk pedestrian visibility in all of my recent cars thanks to their airbag-equipped thicker A-pillars. This is insane, though. Is it even physically possible to get a proper look around that blindspot if you're seated and belted in?
Quote from: Laconian on November 01, 2023, 03:22:58 PMI've had issues with crosswalk pedestrian visibility in all of my recent cars thanks to their airbag-equipped thicker A-pillars. This is insane, though. Is it even physically possible to get a proper look around that blindspot if you're seated and belted in?
The driver will need a mirror on a stick
It looks just as weird on the inside as on the outside. Where're the pedals?
And the yellow panic cutoff switch thingy?!
Quote from: GoCougs on November 01, 2023, 04:20:06 PMAnd the yellow panic cutoff switch thingy?!
Does it clip to your body like the safety key on a treadmill? :lol:
Quote from: FoMoJo on November 01, 2023, 04:12:33 PMIt looks just as weird on the inside as on the outside. Where're the pedals?
I can't believe it's going to sell for a hundred grand, but I guess steel prison toilets are probably pretty expensive too.
They're going to sell a handful to employees with strict NDAs. It won't be made in serious volume. It's the Tesla Semi truck all over again.
The A pillar is thick but the photo makes the outside view more blocked than what it would be for a driver whose head is positioned way above the steering wheel. The photo is taken as if one is looking at the A pillar with their head at the same elevation as the steering wheel. If you Google interior shots of the Cybertruck, the view outside in the region of the A pillar is not as bad as the photo suggests. It's not good but it's not as bad as that photo suggests it is.
The Cybertruck I think will sell very well because Tesla can afford to price it so it will sell and Elon will do that, it attracts a different clientele than the traditional half ton pickup buyer and so its market audience is not looking for pickup truck utility, it's range even with Tesla overselling is great, 4 wheel steering and smaller size than initial prototype make it multilevel indoor parking garage compatible, and all of the other positive attributes of Tesla. It's mostly pricing I think. Recent history going on since 2017 (when the Model 3 became available) has shown that customers are willing to look past Tesla ownership shortcomings (build and material quality, long wait times for repair, overselling of range, etc).
No one expects the Cybertruck or any other full size pickup to be as easy to drive as a car or small SUV in an urban setting. People will look past that though because men like trucks and this vehicle gives a suburban residing man a reason to convince their spouse to let them get one.
I want the CT to be released so we can see whose prediction wins.
Quote from: Laconian on November 02, 2023, 11:48:51 AMI want the CT to be released so we can see whose prediction wins.
Haha.
I look at myself as a typical potential EV buyer. Suburban Dad and have a house (mortgage on a house) with an enclosed garage. We bought a Kia EV6 and I was under no illusion it would save me any money compared with a hybrid or other fuel efficient ICE car. Now that we've had it for a few months, I think it unlikely I would buy another ICE car for local driving. ICE feels prehistoric.
If I was in the market for a new car (I'm not but if I was), if I was OK spending or taking on a 50 to 60 thousand dollar auto loan, and if the car was mostly for me to drive - I would almost certainly get the Cybertruck if it was readily available.
Why not? Yolo. I don't need a pickup for anything so I don't care about the ergonomics of the pickup truck bed. It looks cool, it's probably one of the safest vehicles on the road in a crash, and the interior crew cab is very roomy. Would I take a Tupperware quality interior and suboptimal outward site lines for an EV truck that looks cool with great range - yes. Particularly if it has a surround vision camera for parking.
I'd take this over the F150 Lightning because it'll probably be cheaper and I actually don't need a pickup truck. The Ford looks like a regular pickup truck which makes it not as cool looking. Plus I don't have to deal with dealership shenanigans.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. @2 million people, at least, think it looks cool based on preorders alone.
Being 50 years old and with a history of a low back herniated disk (for which I've gone to the Emergency room by ambulance before) - I have a 50 to 75 lb lift rule. Anything weighing more than that which needs to be lifted, I get it delivered and/or hire people to move it. I'm at the age and stage in life where my physical health is worth more than my masculine ego. I literally have zero reason to need a pickup truck that my hatchback Veloster can't accommodate.
I'd still get a Cybertruck though if I was in the market for a new EV and it was available. I don't care at all about the utility of the pickup truck bed. I'll put suitcases in it, small stuff from Home Depot/Lowes or small furniture my wife buys from other local homeowners via Facebook and the like, and I'll use it for garbage dump runs.
I've gotten remodeled two different bathrooms in my house over the last 5 years and the contractor saved me money each time by telling me to order all the stuff I needed instead of the contractor getting it. Most stuff I got from Home Depot, Lowes, or Amazon and everything large and/or heavy got delivered. I can buy 1000 plus pounds of porcelain tile from Home Depot and get it delivered to my garage for a relatively nominal fee or even free or I can pick it up from the local store. Why would I go to the store to pick it up? If I don't like it, I can return it just the same especially from Home Depot or Lowes. They'll pick up the return for free.
Most suburban Dads who will buy a Cybertruck I suspect won't actually need a pickup truck. I don't think it's primarily marketed to a contractor themselves who needs a pickup truck. I also don't own a motorcycle or an ATV and don't have any plans to, for which I would potentially want a pickup with a better bed than the Cybertruck has.
I don't think the preorder volume can be used as a proxy for actual demand. The tiny preorder amount and the flexible terms made their purchase a weak statement of intent from consumers. And a lot of factors have changed! The base model with the outrageously low $39.9k MSRP won't be offered. Only the dual- and tri-motor models will be offered and the tri motor price will be around a hundred grand, with the dual motor ostensibly somewhere in between ($70k?). That means the cost of getting into a CT could cost nearly _double_ what people were originally excited about.
I don't remember where I found this exactly, but I read that Tesla demand is especially strong among younger people with high income but low accumulated wealth. They rely heavily on borrowing to make the Tesla purchases work. Not only have interest rates on auto loans gone way up, but the same is true for mortgage rates as well, and all the money spent on borrowing means less money available to put into cars.
Add all that to the overall softening demand for EVs and the constant whiff of layoffs in the news. People are deferring unnecessary car purchases and driving what they own for longer.
The Young have always overspent on cars - Z-28s, Bimmers and now Teslas.
Quote from: Laconian on November 02, 2023, 02:38:28 PMI don't think the preorder volume can be used as a proxy for actual demand. The tiny preorder amount and the flexible terms made their purchase a weak statement of intent from consumers. And a lot of factors have changed! The base model with the outrageously low $39.9k MSRP won't be offered. Only the dual- and tri-motor models will be offered and the tri motor price will be around a hundred grand, with the dual motor ostensibly somewhere in between ($70k?). That means the cost of getting into a CT could cost nearly _double_ what people were originally excited about.
I don't remember where I found this exactly, but I read that Tesla demand is especially strong among younger people with high income but low accumulated wealth. They rely heavily on borrowing to make the Tesla purchases work. Not only have interest rates on auto loans gone way up, but the same is true for mortgage rates as well, and all the money spent on borrowing means less money available to put into cars.
Add all that to the overall softening demand for EVs and the constant whiff of layoffs in the news. People are deferring unnecessary car purchases and driving what they own for longer.
I've read the starting price will likely be 50 to 60 grand for the dual motor model. Musk is well aware through numerous public statements that the EV market is softening considerably and he has publicly mused that the Ford Lightning is a good EV but too expensive.
If starting price for whatever base model offered is 70 plus grand, I agree it won't be good seller. But at 50 to 60 grand with a potential large Federal tax rebate, it'll sell very well. That's the same price as most current non Tesla mainstreamer branded EV sedans and two row SUVs on the market right now.
Quote from: veeman on November 02, 2023, 11:00:17 AMThe A pillar is thick but the photo makes the outside view more blocked than what it would be for a driver whose head is positioned way above the steering wheel. The photo is taken as if one is looking at the A pillar with their head at the same elevation as the steering wheel. If you Google interior shots of the Cybertruck, the view outside in the region of the A pillar is not as bad as the photo suggests. It's not good but it's not as bad as that photo suggests it is.
The Cybertruck I think will sell very well because Tesla can afford to price it so it will sell and Elon will do that, it attracts a different clientele than the traditional half ton pickup buyer and so its market audience is not looking for pickup truck utility, it's range even with Tesla overselling is great, 4 wheel steering and smaller size than initial prototype make it multilevel indoor parking garage compatible, and all of the other positive attributes of Tesla. It's mostly pricing I think. Recent history going on since 2017 (when the Model 3 became available) has shown that customers are willing to look past Tesla ownership shortcomings (build and material quality, long wait times for repair, overselling of range, etc).
No one expects the Cybertruck or any other full size pickup to be as easy to drive as a car or small SUV in an urban setting. People will look past that though because men like trucks and this vehicle gives a suburban residing man a reason to convince their spouse to let them get one.
:confused: They haven't announced pricing, specs, range, anything. This is all just speculation that isn't rooted in reality.
They will "sell" a handful of examples to employees under strict NDAs. It's the Tesla Semi truck all over again.
They sold Semis to employees?
The Ford Lightning Pro, XLT, Lariat, and Platinum currently start at $50, $55, $70, and $92 grand respectively.
Do you guys really think Musk is going to price his lowest cost version of the Cybertruck available once production starts going at $70 plus grand knowing one can get an AWD dual motor Ford Lightning XLT for $55 grand?
If anything recent history has shown us that Tesla can and will put severe pricing pressure on their competitors; not the other way around.
Here's my question: Why would somebody that has no need for a truck buy a CT? It's heavier, less aerodynamic, and takes more energy to move than its other Tesla counterparts.
If the goal is to be as "green" as possible, why would you get the biggest, least-efficient thing you can if you don't need it? That's wasting energy for something you don't need. Especially considering that ~80% of our nation's electricity still comes from fossil fuels. You're burning more fossil fuels charging something you don't need.
It's a continued case of "out of sight, out of mind." Gee, idk, I just plug it in and it works, so it must be green.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 02, 2023, 04:00:56 PMHere's my question: Why would somebody that has no need for a truck buy a CT? It's heavier, less aerodynamic, and takes more energy to move than its other Tesla counterparts.
If the goal is to be as "green" as possible, why would you get the biggest, least-efficient thing you can if you don't need it? That's wasting energy for something you don't need. Especially considering that ~80% of our nation's electricity still comes from fossil fuels. You're burning more fossil fuels charging something you don't need.
It's a continued case of "out of sight, out of mind." Gee, idk, I just plug it in and it works, so it must be green.
Because it looks cool and men like big trucks. Most people will prioritize personal consumer materialistic wants over truly being green. I have yet to see anyone I know withhold going on a vacation flight trip because flying is very dirty for the environment. The carbon footprint of Bill Gates is likely 1000 times greater than your average Joe given the size of his house(s), his penchant for renting super yachts, and his personal jet travel. This goes for virtually all the wealthy who have public microphones and who espouse the virtues of EV in large part because of environmental considerations.
I think of it, probably wrongly, as karma. You have good karma and bad karma and most stuff is in between. Taking an EV bus or bicycling to work will probably result in better karma than taking a brodozer diesel pickup to work. A Cybertruck will likely result in better karma than a new regular ICE pickup but where on the karmic scale it lies I don't know. For social purposes, it'll get you a seat at the green cred table at the local country club anyways especially if combined with putting solar panels on your house's roof.
Quote from: veeman on November 02, 2023, 04:30:11 PMBecause it looks cool and men like big trucks. Most people will prioritize personal consumer materialistic wants over truly being green. I have yet to see anyone I know withhold going on a vacation flight trip because flying is very dirty for the environment. The carbon footprint of Bill Gates is likely 1000 times greater than your average Joe given the size of his house(s), his penchant for renting super yachts, and his personal jet travel. This goes for virtually all the wealthy who have public microphones and who espouse the virtues of EV in large part because of environmental considerations.
I think of it, probably wrongly, as karma. You have good karma and bad karma and most stuff is in between. Taking an EV bus or bicycling to work will probably result in better karma than taking a brodozer diesel pickup to work. A Cybertruck will likely result in better karma than a new regular ICE pickup but where on the karmic scale it lies I don't know. For social purposes, it'll get you a seat at the green cred table at the local country club anyways especially if combined with putting solar panels on your house's roof.
I have friends who go through new electric cars like pairs of underwear, and they complain about ICE cars being dirty. It's maddening.
We don't buy vehicles for pure utility. If we did, all Ford's truck sales would the XLs that dealers hide round the back: vinyl seats, spartan, stripped-down, sensible.
But cars are like clothes - expressions of ourselves.
https://www.reddit.com/gallery/17orflp
More pics.
The rear view mirror has got to be an LCD screen. The rear glass looks as narrow as a Countach's.
Someone on TCL saw one in person at a C&C and took a bunch of pics. Its wrapped though.
(https://www.vwvortex.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.vwvortex.com/attachments/img_4399-jpg.339652/)
(https://www.vwvortex.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.vwvortex.com/attachments/img_4385-jpg.339654/)
(https://www.vwvortex.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.vwvortex.com/attachments/img_4380-jpg.339659/)
(https://www.vwvortex.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.vwvortex.com/attachments/img_4382-jpg.339660/)
(https://www.vwvortex.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.vwvortex.com/attachments/polish_20231105_143224027-png.339626/)
9.98 microns? That's cheeky :lol:
The uneven crease lines are something too.
9.98...microns? :wtf:
He had a lot more pics too, but yeah I liked the 9.98 microns one.
A person could injure themselves on those "edges."
So where does the windshield wiper tuck in when it's not in use? Don't tell me it's stuck in that vertical position the whole time... I have a strong urge to run over, turn on the car and give the wipers a chance to park into a normal horizontal position.
I remember when it was supposed to use frickin' lasers instead.
https://www.torquenews.com/11826/elon-musk-hints-laser-windshield-wiper-tesla-cybertruck-confirms-giant-wiper-placeholder
Quote from: Laconian on November 06, 2023, 04:29:50 PMSo where does the windshield wiper tuck in when it's not in use? Don't tell me it's stuck in that vertical position the whole time... I have a strong urge to run over, turn on the car and give the wipers a chance to park into a normal horizontal position.
I remember when it was supposed to use frickin' lasers instead.
https://www.torquenews.com/11826/elon-musk-hints-laser-windshield-wiper-tesla-cybertruck-confirms-giant-wiper-placeholder
That's exactly where it sits. The wind noise alone on that is going to be awful :lol: This whole thing is such a train wreck.
Does the horn blast La Cucaracha?
How many child muzzles are there in the back?
The Cybertruck is very much the Canyonero meets The Homer.
I've never seen the Internet so hell bent on criticizing a prop-production test mule before ... To the point of mixing up the sounds of Jeep being loaded on a trailer with drivetrain noise
Quote from: r0tor on November 07, 2023, 11:56:58 AMI've never seen the Internet so hell bent on criticizing a prop-production test mule before ... To the point of mixing up the sounds of Jeep being loaded on a trailer with drivetrain noise
The truck is being "released" in a couple weeks. It's baked.
Quote from: Laconian on November 07, 2023, 03:07:56 PMThe truck is being "released" in a couple weeks. It's baked.
There however is no telling what preproduction stage the truck in any of these photos is from.
"Tesla Cybertruck on fire"
IMG_1036.jpg
Quote from: r0tor on November 07, 2023, 04:52:23 PMThere however is no telling what preproduction stage the truck in any of these photos is from.
So they let it out knowing it looked like garbage weeks before release?
Quote from: r0tor on November 07, 2023, 04:52:23 PMThere however is no telling what preproduction stage the truck in any of these photos is from.
The trucks actually have decals that indicate what stage they're in: RC. Release Candidate
https://electrek.co/2023/09/06/cybertruck-release-candidate-spotted-supercharging-shows-why-we-need-v4/#:~:text=In%20software%2C%20%E2%80%9CRC%E2%80%9D%20stands,and%20beta%20versions%20would%20be.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 07, 2023, 08:38:17 PMSo they let it out knowing it looked like garbage weeks before release?
Typical Tesla build quality. Their existing customers won't notice any difference.
Quote from: Laconian on November 07, 2023, 08:43:38 PMThe trucks actually have decals that indicate what stage they're in: RC. Release Candidate
https://electrek.co/2023/09/06/cybertruck-release-candidate-spotted-supercharging-shows-why-we-need-v4/#:~:text=In%20software%2C%20%E2%80%9CRC%E2%80%9D%20stands,and%20beta%20versions%20would%20be.
They are not production units though
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 07, 2023, 08:38:17 PMSo they let it out knowing it looked like garbage weeks before release?
Every automakers has mules running around. Most are camo'd , but with this thing it's a bit too distinctive
(https://i.postimg.cc/65cZb9V2/cybertruck.jpg)
:lol:
https://www.theonion.com/elon-musk-fans-explain-why-they-love-cybertrucks-1850991183
Quote from: r0tor on November 07, 2023, 04:52:23 PMThere however is no telling what preproduction stage the truck in any of these photos is from.
Allegedly this was a prototype, not a release candidate, that Holzhausen took somewhere.
(https://preview.redd.it/wiflbrl5gc0c1.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=da7348833c491c5972ed2b2c7ac530ff7103214c)
Useful for scale
So ugly.
So much wasted space.
Lol Ford throws shade
https://www.thedrive.com/news/ford-f-150-lightning-breezes-up-obstacle-where-tesla-cybertruck-struggled
that picture is probably Ai generated. The whole cybertruck is matte finished and then you have a gloss finish in the back where the bike is?
no
I don't think the videos of the Cybertruck vs the Lightning going up the same hill are comparable either.
They both made it up the hill. The Cybertruck took longer and wasn't as smooth about it but we have no idea if the driver was focusing on getting up the hill as fast and smoothly as possible or was just testing various aspects of the vehicle. It also looks like a first attempt. For the Lightning it could have been the driver's 10th attempt for all we know.
Quote from: veeman on November 17, 2023, 07:28:01 AMI don't think the videos of the Cybertruck vs the Lightning going up the same hill are comparable either.
They both made it up the hill. The Cybertruck took longer and wasn't as smooth about it but we have no idea if the driver was focusing on getting up the hill as fast and smoothly as possible or was just testing various aspects of the vehicle. It also looks like a first attempt. For the Lightning it could have been the driver's 10th attempt for all we know.
Agree, there also may be a spotter behind the lightning coaching them.
But it's fun that they are direct competitors in the segment. Scrappy upstart vs established leader. In a couple years wonder which electric truck will be leading in sales?
Too many factors. Dude driving the Tesla seemed like a noob, or the truck just wasn't in the right "mode" to get power down efficiently/smoothly. Tesla has the much better tires (DuraTracs) in that situation, so seemed to be just more of a smoothness problem with either the computer or - more likely - the person modulating the ol' gas pedal.
https://cleanenergyrevolution.co/2023/11/28/tesla-cybertruck-payload-capacity-29-less-than-promised/
QuoteTherefore, the Cybertruck's towing capacity is 21% less than promised, and its payload capacity is 29% less than promised.
The Tesla Cybertruck falls in line with its electric pickup competitors in terms of towing capacity. According to TheStreet, the Rivian R1T also has an 11,000 pound towing capacity, while the Ford F-150 Lightning can tow a maximum of 10,000 pounds.
In addition, the Cybertruck beats the R1T and the F-150 Lightning in terms of payload capacity. The R1T has a capacity of 1,760 pounds, while the F-150 Lightning has a capacity of 2,235 pounds.
However, the Cybertruck falls quite short of Musk's promise that it would be the "world's toughest truck." The Ram 3500 pickup has a towing capacity of up to 23,000 pounds.
You can't tow with an EV so it's a bit pointless... Well unless you are towing a charging station anyway
Quote from: r0tor on November 28, 2023, 12:23:42 PMYou can't tow with an EV so it's a bit pointless... Well unless you are towing a charging station anyway
Towing a running Generac while you drive. Genius.
Quote from: Laconian on November 28, 2023, 12:42:26 PMTowing a running Generac while you drive. Genius.
Isn't that basically what the Ram EV truck is doing.
Quote from: r0tor on November 28, 2023, 12:23:42 PMYou can't tow with an EV so it's a bit pointless... Well unless you are towing a charging station anyway
Plenty of people near me only tow their boat 20-40 miles one way.
Why are we comparing this thing to pickup trucks? Nobody is buying it for its utility.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 28, 2023, 02:13:49 PMWhy are we comparing this thing to pickup trucks? Nobody is buying it for its utility.
Which is part of the problem, IMO. It's the same reason people started getting upset with SUVs a decade or two ago for being "gas guzzlers." People are buying this thing because it's "cool," not because they need it...EVs are allegedly all about being green and using less energy, but this behemoth isn't if it's just gonna be your DD. And anybody who actually uses a pickup truck for pickup truck things knew that from day one.
I struggle to wrap my brain around it.
Quote from: Laconian on November 28, 2023, 11:24:05 AMhttps://cleanenergyrevolution.co/2023/11/28/tesla-cybertruck-payload-capacity-29-less-than-promised/
When you don't validate anything and deny basic warranty claims, why not just pick numbers slightly higher than competitors?
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 28, 2023, 03:25:47 PMI struggle to wrap my brain around it.
Everyone except the most ardent Muskers do :lol:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 28, 2023, 01:04:25 PMIsn't that basically what the Ram EV truck is doing.
Well now that you say that... It's probably the most accurate way of describing that thing!
Quote from: r0tor on November 28, 2023, 04:44:29 PMWell now that you say that... It's probably the most accurate way of describing that thing!
aka, the only potentially useful EV truck to exist thus far.
The Cybertruck is similar to an oversized hybrid RAV4 with a hatch, which has a retractable roof, separated from the main cabin. It is a passenger vehicle which probably has similar "fueling" costs for the end user and is not designed to be a work truck or carry or tow heavy loads. Similar to the hybrid RAV4, it'll sell like hotcakes. It's much more expensive but it looks cool (to at least 2 million people who put deposits on one) and purchase of it will get you membership in the Tesla cult and a better seat at the green cred table.
I think the covers are off EVs at this point - psycho Musk, falling sales and realization that EVs are not any sort of material environmental solution. The Cybertruck was hatched in the days of yore whereby it was all rainbows and unicorns.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 29, 2023, 11:23:04 AMI think the covers are off EVs at this point - psycho Musk, falling sales and realization that EVs are not any sort of material environmental solution. The Cybertruck was hatched in the days of yore whereby it was all rainbows and unicorns.
I'm not disagreeing with you but you should get one (an EV). Once you daily drive a well sorted EV which has the creature comforts you want, I think it hard to go back to ICE as a daily driver, especially in traffic congested local roads. This question of ultimate range is a bit silly to me. My opinion they're not meant for going outside the home range and they're not meant to be charged by public fast charging. At least for a good ownership experience perspective. They're meant as a second car for people who can install a level 2 charger at home. Leave the ICE for longer drives.
Irrespective of their pros and cons of their impact on climate change vs ICE, it's so much nicer a daily drive experience. You feel like you're in a vehicle of the future compared with all the ICE around you. Lack of NVH, really stable because of low center of gravity heavy weight, and instant speed. It's never "get up to speed". It's always "I am already at the speed I want to be at."
Marques Brownlee is testing the CT and shared this picture from the driver's seat.
media_GAHbvL6a8AEKV0d.jpg
Everybody is talking about the range, the power... but how about that A-pillar?!?!
It's a fucktastrophe.
At least the dash is suede-like material, that's a nice touch to reduce glare from that massive flat expanse.
I bet some of the same dorks that whine "these darn big gas guzzlin' SUVs, how are you supposed to see a child in front of you!" are the same people that'll be buying these monstrosities and say how great the visibility is.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 29, 2023, 01:37:58 PMI bet some of the same dorks that whine "these darn big gas guzzlin' SUVs, how are you supposed to see a child in front of you!" are the same people that'll be buying these monstrosities and say how great the visibility is.
I doubt it.. it's not all granola folks buying EVs, there are plenty of psychopaths behind the wheels of them too :lol: My area used to be thick with BMWs but now they are all Teslas.
Quote from: veeman on November 29, 2023, 11:47:06 AMreally stable because of low center of gravity heavy weight, and instant speed. It's never "get up to speed". It's always "I am already at the speed I want to be at."
Most of these things are $50k+. At that price tag I don't think there are many cars that you couldn't say those same things about
Quote from: Laconian on November 29, 2023, 01:41:10 PMI doubt it.. it's not all granola folks buying EVs, there are plenty of psychopaths behind the wheels of them too :lol: My area used to be thick with BMWs but now they are all Teslas.
Me and my friends call them "granola eatin' fucks."
Quote from: r0tor on November 29, 2023, 05:59:09 PMMost of these things are $50k+. At that price tag I don't think there are many cars that you couldn't say those same things about
EVs punch way above their weight (or price) class compared with equivalent priced ICE regarding silence/speed combo. It's not a fair comparison. EVs don't have an engine so mostly the only noise you hear is tire and wind noise.
Quote from: veeman on November 30, 2023, 03:58:38 AMEVs punch way above their weight (or price) class compared with equivalent priced ICE regarding silence/speed combo. It's not a fair comparison. EVs don't have an engine so mostly the only noise you hear is tire and wind noise.
Speed wise a Tesla Model 3 2WD models have roughly the same acceleration as my Alfa for basically the same price range. Sound wise I installed an aftermarket exhaust because I enjoy engine sounds.
So that's a double negative for me on EV advantage.
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 05:43:22 AMSpeed wise a Tesla Model 3 2WD models have roughly the same acceleration as my Alfa for basically the same price range. Sound wise I installed an aftermarket exhaust because I enjoy engine sounds.
So that's a double negative for me on EV advantage.
If you like noise & smoke & oil & complex mechanicals, an EV is not for you. For those for whom these attributes are less important, Veeman is right; keep an ICE vehicle around for the rare beyond-home-charging-radius events, while using the EV as your daily driver.
Most people will need to put the ICE vehicle on a battery tender.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 30, 2023, 06:12:47 AMIf you like noise & smoke & oil & complex mechanicals, an EV is not for you. For those for whom these attributes are less important, Veeman is right; keep an ICE vehicle around for the rare beyond-home-charging-radius events, while using the EV as your daily driver.
Most people will need to put the ICE vehicle on battery tender.
My point is really I see all these "eeeevvvveeeess are so fast!" comments.
My working assumption is most of these comments are from people who traditionally didn't sped a whole lot on a car and never bought a high performance model but then suddenly pluck down $50k on a 400+ hp EV.
Anything with a decent power to weight ratio is going to feel fast and most cars in the $50k range fall into that category if it's ICE or EV. EVs are a bit faster off the line (but not huge difference compared to a modern turbo engine) and significantly slower for the most part at higher speeds.
EVs are fine for an appliance application.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 30, 2023, 06:12:47 AMIf you like noise & smoke & oil & complex mechanicals, an EV is not for you. For those for whom these attributes are less important, Veeman is right; keep an ICE vehicle around for the rare beyond-home-charging-radius events, while using the EV as your daily driver.
Most people will need to put the ICE vehicle on a battery tender.
Agree 100%. The only reason my two ICE cars are not on a battery tender is my wife drives the EV to work. I loved driving my manual transmission Veloster. It's slow but it's fun to, pedal to the metal, go through the gear changes. The EV feels better to me however. I feel like I'm driving something from Blade Runner 2049 except it doesn't fly. Surreally quiet and at speed once on a straight road seemly instantaneously. I have to take turns slower than in my Veloster because it's so heavy but the heavy weight actually feels gratifying too because I feel more protected. The same sort of feeling I get when sitting in a large German luxury sedan. When sitting in it while it's being driven you can feel the heavy weight of the car being effortlessly propelled.
I think that EVs make good commuter vehicles, but for the enthusiast, IC is still desired by enthusiasts. It needs to be a real sports car though. Not just a sedan or SUV with a big motor. Camaro, for those inclined, Mustang, hear it roar, or Alfa sports sedans would all qualify. Most commuters are really not enthusiasts, so an EV would be just right for them.
An example of an "enthusiasts" sports car...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU8GMEsc0SI&t=1s
You can never get that from an EV, no matter how quick or sporty.
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 06:24:18 AMMy point is really I see all these "eeeevvvveeeess are so fast!" comments.
My working assumption is most of these comments are from people who traditionally didn't sped a whole lot on a car and never bought a high performance model but then suddenly pluck down $50k on a 400+ hp EV.
Anything with a decent power to weight ratio is going to feel fast and most cars in the $50k range fall into that category if it's ICE or EV. EVs are a bit faster off the line (but not huge difference compared to a modern turbo engine) and significantly slower for the most part at higher speeds.
EVs are fine for an appliance application.
I don't know how to respond to this other than to say you're wrong. EVs don't have any shift lag, turbo lag, etc. Even at highway speeds, flooring it in an EV is much quicker to shoot a gap in traffic than an ICE. My BMW has more HP than the Bolt but it takes a minute to spool up and go. Your comments sound like magazine bench racing more than experience with both EV & ICE.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 30, 2023, 09:27:12 AMI don't know how to respond to this other than to say you're wrong. EVs don't have any shift lag, turbo lag, etc. Even at highway speeds, flooring it in an EV is much quicker to shoot a gap in traffic than an ICE. My BMW has more HP than the Bolt but it takes a minute to spool up and go. Your comments sound like magazine bench racing more than experience with both EV & ICE.
8sp auto plus small turbo? Come on, the spool time is practically non existent. Being in the right gear before accelerating is a voluntary move I enjoy doing.
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 09:39:23 AM8sp auto plus small turbo? Come on, the spool time is practically non existent. Being in the right gear before accelerating is a voluntary move I enjoy doing.
The EV doesn't need that voluntary move, it's always in the right gear
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 30, 2023, 11:02:33 AMThe EV doesn't need that voluntary move, it's always in the right gear
I find enjoyment in downshifting so again I don't see the lack of sound or effort to be a benefit.
A fast car is a fast car is a fast car. All cars still obey physics
Saying this though, it's rather interesting in the tuning practices between ICE and EVs at the moment.
ICE turbo cats for the last 20 or so years now have electronic.controlled wastegate which regulate boost pressure to provide a fairly constant torque and linear power feel. They give up low rpm performance for smoothness. Aftermarket tunes reverse this and just let the engine produce all it can which ends up giving you the 80s/90s era turbo spool surge.
Most EVs on the other hand are being tuned to provide that initial shock - often times with short lived time periods that "over boost" the battery.
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 11:09:12 AMI find enjoyment in downshifting so again I don't see the lack of sound or effort to be a benefit.
A fast car is a fast car is a fast car. All cars still obey physics
There's speed and there's latency. You can have equivalently fast cars but one can be snappier than the other.
On Sport mode the EV6 has zero perceivable latency. The motors feel like they're hard wired to your nervous system. Just a hint of desire to accelerate and the car explodes forward. That capability doesn't exist outside of the hypercar ICE sphere.
Quote from: Laconian on November 30, 2023, 11:39:21 AMThere's speed and there's latency. You can have equivalently fast cars but one can be snappier than the other.
On Sport mode the EV6 has zero perceivable latency. The motors feel like they're hard wired to your nervous system. Just a hint of desire to accelerate and the car explodes forward. That capability doesn't exist outside of the hypercar ICE sphere.
See my post above why predominantly that is.
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 11:44:42 AMSee my post above why predominantly that is.
But there are fewer mechanical constants dictating the tune or feel of an EV's drivetrain. The software abstraction layer gives the user a tremendous amount of latitude to dynamically adjust the performance of the car based on their preferences. The same car can go from Chill to Ludicrous with no compromise on either.
Quote from: veeman on November 29, 2023, 11:47:06 AMI'm not disagreeing with you but you should get one (an EV). Once you daily drive a well sorted EV which has the creature comforts you want, I think it hard to go back to ICE as a daily driver, especially in traffic congested local roads. This question of ultimate range is a bit silly to me. My opinion they're not meant for going outside the home range and they're not meant to be charged by public fast charging. At least for a good ownership experience perspective. They're meant as a second car for people who can install a level 2 charger at home. Leave the ICE for longer drives.
Irrespective of their pros and cons of their impact on climate change vs ICE, it's so much nicer a daily drive experience. You feel like you're in a vehicle of the future compared with all the ICE around you. Lack of NVH, really stable because of low center of gravity heavy weight, and instant speed. It's never "get up to speed". It's always "I am already at the speed I want to be at."
Not a chance. It's been 10+ years and EVs and charging infrastructure are limited to the point that the average driver still needs access to an ICEV. Battery tech seems to be asymptotically nearing peak and no one is that interested in public charging infrastructure given how abysmal it is - all of which will be exacerbated as EV sales decline and the hype dies down. Like an electric fork lift, electric bus, electric train, etc., EVs can have good value proposition, but it is within a very narrow set of circumstances and customers (wealthy-ish, can afford cost and space of an ICEV, has standalone housing, used for local commuting).
Quote from: GoCougs on November 30, 2023, 12:02:22 PMNot a chance. It's been 10+ years and EVs and charging infrastructure are limited to the point that the average driver still needs access to an ICEV. Battery tech seems to be asymptotically nearing peak and no one is that interested in public charging infrastructure given how abysmal it is - all of which will be exacerbated as EV sales decline and the hype dies down. Like an electric fork lift, electric bus, electric train, etc., EVs can have good value proposition, but it is within a very narrow set of circumstances and customers (wealthy-ish, can afford cost and space of an ICEV, has standalone housing, used for local commuting).
So I disagree that battery nearing peak. Solid state batteries will come out with massive energy density
But that battery development is utterly useless without the charging infrastructure. A decent EV still takes 3-4kwh/mile regardless of battery tech. There is still inherently the same amount of minutes charge time per mile required if you have a 100kwh pack or a 300keh pack - so the larger pack you can travel further but then spend 3x longer at the charger. Therefore really the infrastructure is more important than the battery tech at the moment and to solve that still is a mind-blowing amount of work.
EV trucks are a victim of this. Yes you can put a battery to travel 300 miles in a Lightening or Cybertruck, but now you are sitting at a charger 2x longer than a crossover EV... and could reach the point where even home charging is not rapid enough to keep up with daily travels. I know someone trying to use a Lightening for commercial use and had to ditch it because of this.
https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck/design#payment
$60k RWD, "available 2025". No power numbers, but a claim for 6.5s 0-60.
$80k AWD, "delivery 2024". 600hp.
$100k AWD Cyberbeast, "delivery 2024".
What's with those torque numbers? 7,435 lb*ft? Is that number after a reduction gearbox?
7435 at whaaaat?
That's gotta be with gear reduction. Which is exactly the type of dumb stat Tesla likes to promote. (Just like their website is covered in "price after savings" and asterisks on their 0-60 times)
GM is guilty of the same douchebagrity
From the Hummer EV webpage...
QuoteHOW POWERFUL
Electricity has never been more electrifying. HUMMER EV Pickup is available with up to 1,000 horsepower,† 11,500 lb-ft of torque† and, with available Watts To Freedom,† 0-60 mph acceleration in about 3 seconds.† When properly equipped, HUMMER EV SUV offers up to an available 830 horsepower† and 11,500 lb-ft of torque.† And with available Watts To Freedom, 60 mph is yours in approximately 3.5 seconds.†
So why are they reinventing that stat?
Quote from: Laconian on November 30, 2023, 03:31:00 PMSo why are they reinventing that stat?
EV motors spin around 2x faster so therefore they would have 1/2 the torque of an ICE engine with equivalent hp
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 06:24:18 AMMy point is really I see all these "eeeevvvveeeess are so fast!" comments.
My working assumption is most of these comments are from people who traditionally didn't sped a whole lot on a car and never bought a high performance model but then suddenly pluck down $50k on a 400+ hp EV.
Anything with a decent power to weight ratio is going to feel fast and most cars in the $50k range fall into that category if it's ICE or EV. EVs are a bit faster off the line (but not huge difference compared to a modern turbo engine) and significantly slower for the most part at higher speeds.
EVs are fine for an appliance application.
Definitely not true. After driving around for a while in the Model Y, I have to recalibrate passing distances for my other vehicles because of how much longer they take. Though the 114mph trap of the Model Y is the slowest of the fleet, it's got by far the best passing numbers.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a32934240/2020-tesla-model-y-long-range-by-the-numbers/
Long range 50 to 70 2.0 secs
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a44213462/2023-bmw-x3-m-competition-by-the-numbers/
X3m comp 50 to 70 3.1 sec
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37418534/2022-cadillac-ct5-v-blackwing-by-the-numbers/
CT5 V blackwing 6MT 50 to 70 6.2 seconds top gear. Even with the 10speed auto 50 to 70 doesnt beat the long range model Y at 2.3 seconds.
For shits and giggles
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a39429194/2022-bugatti-chiron-super-sport-by-the-numbers/
Bugatti Chiron supersport 50 to 70 2.3 seconds
Compare that to a lowly Model 3 performance that is only .1 seconds slower in the 5 to 60 street start and blows the Chiron away in the passing tests. For EVs the 0 to 60 and the 5 to 60 are very similar, for ICEs it's very different. Unless you are launch controlling your Chiron from every light, the EV is going to be right there for a fraction of the price.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36329678/2019-tesla-model-3-performance-by-the-numbers/
In terms of putting your foot down and getting somewhere EVs are in another league. The Model S plaid does those passing tests in like 1 second. It literally does it in less than half the time of the fastest ICE cars.
Merci for digging up the stats
CT is 800V. Excellent, this bodes well for rapid Supercharging of the EV6.
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 03:00:20 PMGM is guilty of the same douchebagrity
From the Hummer EV webpage...
Ugh yeah that is terrible too. My El Camino has 3600 lb-ft!!! :mrcool: :rolleyes:
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 01:19:29 PMSo I disagree that battery nearing peak. Solid state batteries will come out with massive energy density
But that battery development is utterly useless without the charging infrastructure. A decent EV still takes 3-4kwh/mile regardless of battery tech. There is still inherently the same amount of minutes charge time per mile required if you have a 100kwh pack or a 300keh pack - so the larger pack you can travel further but then spend 3x longer at the charger. Therefore really the infrastructure is more important than the battery tech at the moment and to solve that still is a mind-blowing amount of work.
EV trucks are a victim of this. Yes you can put a battery to travel 300 miles in a Lightening or Cybertruck, but now you are sitting at a charger 2x longer than a crossover EV... and could reach the point where even home charging is not rapid enough to keep up with daily travels. I know someone trying to use a Lightening for commercial use and had to ditch it because of this.
"They" have been talking SS batteries for years, but no dice yet - still only fit for very small devices. But as you point out, that doesn't solve a lot - if/when SS batteries ever make it, charge times will still be about the same, so in theory, for wide adoption, you'd need 5-10x the number charging stations as gas stations (since it takes 5-10x as long to "fuel" an EV vs. ICEV). Granted, charging stations are vastly cheaper and easier to install but the problems with the infrastructure rollout is the canary in the coal mine WRT wide adoption.
Quote from: 565 on November 30, 2023, 03:50:11 PMDefinitely not true. After driving around for a while in the Model Y, I have to recalibrate passing distances for my other vehicles because of how much longer they take. Though the 114mph trap of the Model Y is the slowest of the fleet, it's got by far the best passing numbers.
C&D 50-70mph passing tests should really not be compared between ICE and EVs as it's simply not comparable due to the fact they start accelerating in the highest gear in ICE vehicles. Manual trans cars aren't even allowed to doenshift. The Model Y is gear limited to 135-155 depending on model, so a compatible test in say the X3M might be starting in 4th or 5th gear instead of 8th.
Simply put in an EV the test shows the fastest time from 50-70 possible while the ICE tests show the slowest times.
Someone in the real world wanting to pass someone could easily drop a few gears first. Thas how the test should be done. The CarWow vid shows an actual test of accelerating from highway speed starting in the correct gear and the difference is negligible.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a32018270/how-we-test-cars/
Tesla also likes to boost power for short periods of time under right conditions (full battery, normal batter temps, ect). You can get a Model X/Y to dyno >500hp for a few seconds to increase the shock effect.... Yet won't make a single lap around a circuit even at rated power
TUNDRA 5.7 4x4 has 15,512 lb-ft of torque at the axles, not including torque converter multiplication.
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 06:24:18 AMEVs are a bit faster off the line (but not huge difference compared to a modern turbo engine) and significantly slower for the most part at higher speeds.
LOL
Two EVs blew away the fastest of the fast cars in Car & Driver's 0-150-0mph testing. A cheap Kia EV beat cars costing $15k more.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a45765297/0-150-0-mph-speed-test-2023/
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 30, 2023, 04:47:17 PMLOL
Two EVs blew away the fastest of the fast cars in Car & Driver's 0-150-0mph testing. A cheap Kia EV beat cars costing $15k more.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a45765297/0-150-0-mph-speed-test-2023/
They have >1000hp. They better win the damn races with 2x the power. CarWow also ran a Tesla Plaid against 1,000 hp tuned ICE cars and suddenly it didn't look so buff.
Look at the Kia EV6 GT in the C&D test. 567ho and it got stomped by a Supra with >100 hp less
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 04:31:21 PMC&D 50-70mph passing tests should really not be compared between ICE and EVs as it's simply not comparable due to the fact they start accelerating in the highest gear in ICE vehicles. Manual trans cars aren't even allowed to doenshift. The Model Y is gear limited to 135-155 depending on model, so a compatible test in say the X3M might be starting in 4th or 5th gear instead of 8th.
Simply put in an EV the test shows the fastest time from 50-70 possible while the ICE tests show the slowest times.
Someone in the real world wanting to pass someone could easily drop a few gears first. Thas how the test should be done.
But that's the beauty of EVs. It's always in the right gear. You can go from cruising quietly to full brutal acceleration in the blink of an eye.
In terms of real world usable power, it's by far the best of my cars.
Quote from: 565 on November 30, 2023, 05:22:02 PMBut that's the beauty of EVs. It's always in the right gear. You can go from cruising quietly to full brutal acceleration in the blink of an eye.
In terms of real world usable power, it's by far the best of my cars.
That of course means that manuals are shit since you actually have to operate the car? That's a terrible argument.
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 05:32:07 PMThat of course means that manuals are shit since you actually have to operate the car? That's a terrible argument.
Uhhh no one is arguing that.
It's an argument now. Argue.
Quote from: 565 on November 30, 2023, 05:41:46 PMUhhh no one is arguing that.
The simple act of changing gears assures you are always in the right gear
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 06:14:04 PMThe simple act of changing gears assures you are always in the right gear
And how long does that take?
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 30, 2023, 06:40:31 PMAnd how long does that take?
0.0 seconds as you do it ahead of time
Quote from: r0tor on November 30, 2023, 06:45:27 PM0.0 seconds as you do it ahead of time
Okay well next time someone asks me how long it takes to charge an EV, I'm gonna say that :lol:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 30, 2023, 07:02:13 PMOkay well next time someone asks me how long it takes to charge an EV, I'm gonna say that :lol:
Logical if it's something like overnight charging and not costing you time on a commute -shrug-
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 30, 2023, 07:02:13 PMOkay well next time someone asks me how long it takes to charge an EV, I'm gonna say that :lol:
:internetry:
Quote from: 565 on November 30, 2023, 05:22:02 PMIn terms of real world usable power, it's by far the best of my cars.
That's the difference. EVs aren't necessarily faster on a racetrack for a few reasons but they're the king of the street IMO. Bolts are not actually fast cars but it's easy to roast people at a stop light. It helps that they're quiet at full throttle, so people have a harder time realizing that you are using all your HP. If you're full throttle in a V8, everyone knows.
Quote from: 565 on November 30, 2023, 03:50:11 PMDefinitely not true. After driving around for a while in the Model Y, I have to recalibrate passing distances for my other vehicles because of how much longer they take. Though the 114mph trap of the Model Y is the slowest of the fleet, it's got by far the best passing numbers.
<snip>
What is even going in the world. Here I am agreeing with (new) BFF r0tor once again. EV daily driving performance is outsized but EV legit performance is indeed rather lackluster.
0-60 and passing times (which are only very approximate due to variances in starting speed (can't ever be exact) and when to start the clock (pedal down vs. downshift started vs. ?) are parlor tricks in the performance world. Sure, they're indicators of response and such in daily driving, but daily driving is not performance driving.
To wit, let's look at the legit performance stats of rolling starts and 0-triple digits. As one can see, The Model Y LR isn't even in the discussion WRT the CT5-V (even with M/T):
Cadillac CT5-V: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37418534/2022-cadillac-ct5-v-blackwing-by-the-numbers/
60-100: 4.1 s
60-130: 8.8 s
0-130: 12.4 s
Tesla Model Y LR: https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-y
60-100: 5.5 s
60-130: 14.2 s
0-130: 17.8 s
As I'm sure many are aware, Tesla product has only one gear, and road speed is modulated by electric motor RPM. Works OK overall however a goodly portion of legit performance is negated by not keeping the electric motor in its power band (which tends to be lower down in the RPM range), as does the typical ICEV. Hence, EVs' reputation of over performance on the parlor tricks and under perform on the legit performance stats (the latter of which is typically at higher road speeds where the single speed EV gasses).
Here's a Model 3 Performance dyno run (https://www.dragtimes.com/2018-Tesla-Model-3-Dyno-Results-Graphs-30722.html) showing peak power at ~55 MPH and then it's all downhill from there. I've superimposed a blue dyno curve of a hypothetical multiple multi-speed ICEV. Note that by ~110 mph the M3P is down ~30% on power yet the ICEV is down ~0%, and by ~150 mph the M3P is down ~50% and the ICEV is down ~0%. This is the how and why EVs gas and my hunch, is the root of r0tor's comment (and mine too of course). Oh and suffice it to say, add a gear or two (*cough* Taycan *cough*) and an EV claws back a goodly portion of its performance potential:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdS6DyYk/two-speed-tesla.png)
https://youtu.be/L6WDq0V5oBg?si=wo0Ioh0uOsRvz0wf
Gougs and r0tor becoming BFF's might be the best thing of 2023.
I'll remember to take the CT5 the next time I need to pass someone at 130mph
Quote from: SJ_GTI on December 01, 2023, 06:36:25 AMGougs and r0tor becoming BFF's might be the best thing of 2023.
I know, right? I'm so optimistic for 2024.
Quote from: 565 on December 01, 2023, 05:51:34 AMhttps://youtu.be/L6WDq0V5oBg?si=wo0Ioh0uOsRvz0wf
Good production but always a bit hyperbolic that Jason that detracts from the overall intent. Anyway...
Today I learned about the Cybertruck: doesn't look nearly as bad as the prototype (esp. ride height/wheel gaps and wheel backspacing - but still looks bad), 800V main battery architecture, 48V accessories, legit steer-by-wire and legit stainless steel body that delivers on strength/durability.
F-150 Lightning and Hummer EV do indeed look ~70 years older and exactly what you get with design by committee (w/a union and governmental reach-around). Traditional full-size pickup trucks are in general absolutely awful vehicles but that's why WtP love them. Can the Cybertruck change that?
The environmental premise zeitgeist of EVs is eroding, so whether the Cybertruck is any sort of legit answer has probably already been answered (not better, just different, esp. WRT NIMBY environmentalism) but we'll see where it goes!
Marques is a good show & tell guy:
Certainly is different... Just not sure if it's a good different or a Model X different
Also kudos to Jason calling the Hummer EV what it really is - a lazy engineering monstrosity
My favorite is seeing an article which noted the Cybertruck is unibody "like the Ford Maverick". :thumbsup:
https://electrek.co/2023/11/30/tesla-cybertruck-range-extender-separate-battery-pack-bed/
You can get a big toolbox shaped battery pack installed in the payload for $16k in order to almost get the originally promised/hyped range. It uses about a third of the cargo capacity.
It can only be installed and removed at a service center.
$16k? Wah.
Quote from: Laconian on December 01, 2023, 12:11:31 PMhttps://electrek.co/2023/11/30/tesla-cybertruck-range-extender-separate-battery-pack-bed/
You can get a big toolbox shaped battery pack installed in the payload for $16k in order to almost get the originally promised/hyped range. It uses about a third of the cargo capacity.
It can only be installed and removed at a service center.
:lol:
To be honest I like the idea of supplemental batteries but only if they can be easily installed and removed.
A semi permanent battery mounted way up high on a vehicle that's getting pretty poor mi/kWh is not great, though.
Just saw the Camissa video. The steer by wire implementation looks impressive.
The ten trucks which have been "delivered" have a lot of beta testing ground to cover. That is an awful lot of new things to ship all at once. Each quirk is a potential risk.
Quote from: Laconian on December 01, 2023, 01:01:36 PMTo be honest I like the idea of supplemental batteries but only if they can be easily installed and removed.
Agreed. A supplemental battery would be great for when you have road trips planned.
But on the other side of the coin...if you are planning a road trip, you're also likely to be carrying more people and/or stuff than usual, so suddenly you have less space, while also needing more...:lol:
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 01, 2023, 01:51:48 PMAgreed. A supplemental battery would be great for when you have road trips planned.
But on the other side of the coin...if you are planning a road trip, you're also likely to be carrying more people and/or stuff than usual, so suddenly you have less space, while also needing more...:lol:
Yeah, it's that EV efficiency spiral all over again.
It probably weighs 500 lbs so I can see why they would want a service shop installing it.
Quote from: r0tor on December 01, 2023, 02:15:07 PMIt probably weighs 500 lbs so I can see why they would want a service shop installing it.
For sure. Most people don't have a chain hoist or a forklift layin' around. :lol:
OK, how about battery rentals from a company like UHaul?
Quote from: Laconian on December 01, 2023, 02:27:18 PMOK, how about battery rentals from a company like UHaul?
It will be cheaper and easier to just take the ICE Suburban sitting in the garage for the occasional longer trip rather than going to Uhaul and renting and having them install a range extender battery. An extra 120 miles of range from range extender battery wouldn't be worth it to rent. Plus I don't know how trustworthy a used range extender battery would be from Uhaul.
It's not just plopping in a battery and plugging it in. Gotta secure it to the truck but most importantly, hook up coolant hoses/ sensors too.
https://youtu.be/uefydJUbRhc?si=0hXWUyCbb-_i0DM1
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on December 01, 2023, 03:54:27 PMIt's not just plopping in a battery and plugging it in. Gotta secure it to the truck but most importantly, hook up coolant hoses/ sensors too.
Good point, thermal management is definitely a Thing with these packs.
I have to admit, I am a bit impressed, esp. with the 800V architecture and SS body panels. It still just looks so goddamned bad though.
One also has to ponder the repair/maintenance drama and environmental toll that has always surrounded painted vehicles . Sure, SS is boring esp. if all other copies of the marque are the same, but still.
https://youtu.be/teRRk-0KHus?si=upiYQDa4qsKnU-cZ
I'm impressed with this lead cybertruck engineer actually knowing his guns.
Maybe police departments will start using the Cybertruck. Wonder how much more it would be to install bullet proof glass? Most police officers don't drive more than 200 miles a day.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 01, 2023, 06:57:51 PMI have to admit, I am a bit impressed, esp. with the 800V architecture and SS body panels. It still just looks so goddamned bad though.
The steer by wire is clever:
180° 170° turn on the steering wheel lock to lock. Echoes of the super quick steering on the Citroën SM & Maserati Khamsin.
Quote from: veeman on December 01, 2023, 09:51:32 PMMaybe police departments will start using the Cybertruck. Wonder how much more it would be to install bullet proof glass? Most police officers don't drive more than 200 miles a day.
I would suspect a CT with bulletproof glass and all other necessary equipment would be out of the budget range for most police departments. I imagine a bulletproof pane the size of that windshield alone would be many many thousands of dollars. :lol:
Other than that, though, how well do EVs "idle?" A police car has to be "on" for an officer's entire 8-12 hour shift powering all of the equipment (computer, radio, radars, cameras, lights, etc) and also take care of climate control for the officer(s) inside of it. Plus driving, of course.
Like how much battery gets sucked up by air conditioning on hot days or the heater on cold days (where the battery life is already compromised by the cold).
I suppose with modern fast charging, going back to the station (or whatever local fast charger) for the occasional 10-15 minute top-off wouldn't be out of the question, just like they do at gas stations now...I imagine cops in ICE cop cars like to keep at least 1/4-1/2 a tank at all times to avoid running out if something comes up where lots of driving or multiple hours on a scene may be involved. ICEs can idle for a lonnnnnng time using very little fuel. Are EVs similar in that regard?
On really cold or really hot days the car uses about a kilowatt hour per hour. So my car could idle for about two or three days.
Quote from: Laconian on December 02, 2023, 01:29:58 PMOn really cold or really hot days the car uses about a kilowatt hour per hour. So my car could idle for about two or three days.
That's impressive. Makes sense...I suppose EVs use an a/c compressor akin to what you'd find in a household window unit or refrigerator as opposed to the belt-driven units ICEs use?
How much does your "average" range tend to drop on really cold/hot days with the usual driving included?
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 02, 2023, 01:40:10 PMThat's impressive. Makes sense...I suppose EVs use an a/c compressor akin to what you'd find in a household window unit or refrigerator as opposed to the belt-driven units ICEs use?
How much does your "average" range tend to drop on really cold/hot days with the usual driving included?
It's a heat pump driven with a linear inverter from the high voltage pack. It's pretty efficient at pumping heat into the cabin and then running very slowly to maintain the temperature once the cabin's at the set point.
Hybrids, PHEVs, and EVs are all so much better at idling versus bare ICE drivetrains. The hybrid Police Interceptors have been wildly successful with police departments because they cut fuel costs so dramatically.
My range in the winter is about 20% worse than summer (3.7-4.0 summer, 3.0 winter). Some of that is climate control, but I think that all the drivetrain systems in general are less efficient when they're cold.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 01, 2023, 06:57:51 PMI have to admit, I am a bit impressed, esp. with the 800V architecture and SS body panels. It still just looks so goddamned bad though.
800V is old hat for me by now :lol: but I am impressed by the change to 48V for the low voltage electronics.
The rest of the truck, especially the panels, is pretty repulsive to me. For all the talk about the truck being a radical, from-scratch rethink, it seems like a huge missed opportunity. They brag about never focus grouping their product but I don't see the Cybertruck as being particularly grounded for customers or use cases that actually exists in the real world. Throwing baseballs at body panels. Beating a 911 in a 1/8th mile drag race. Are those practical concerns that people actually care about? It's all purely a fashion statement.
It didn't have to end up like this. I could see, in an alternate universe, Tesla putting out a sensibly priced Maverick-alike, cleverly built for tradesmen and govt agencies, fully electrified and bristling with V2L outlets. I would have been all over that. Leave the long distance towing to the diesel trucks.
But instead of something clever and interesting and compelling, we have a wasted chance, a squandering of the public's attention, a failure of imagination.
(I'm pretty down about the Hummer EV too, it's definitely The Worst. The F150 Lightning is a sensible base hit but it just scratches at the surface of what's possible.)
Quote from: veeman on December 01, 2023, 09:51:32 PMMaybe police departments will start using the Cybertruck. Wonder how much more it would be to install bullet proof glass? Most police officers don't drive more than 200 miles a day.
A LOT... You also have to reinforce every door panel, though that may be less necessary depending on how the stainless steel works and what is inside the doors...
For how great the initial reviews of this truck are, the main problem is the price. 80 grand (well ten dollars less than 80 grand which is the upper limit in price for a vehicle to qualify for the federal tax subsidy). So even if you get the federal tax subsidy, that's near 80 grand total price once you include state tax etc. At 5% apr for 60 months that's $1500/month.
Unlike other Tesla vehicles, the Cybertruck is also not going to be sold in Europe.
Musk: "we dug our own grave with Cybertruck"
Tesla will be fine. Model 3 and Model Y, especially with recent updates, will continue to sell very well. I don't know if an 80 grand vehicle with likely extremely high auto body repair costs (and therefore high insurance costs) will sell > 100,000 a year.
Quote from: veeman on December 03, 2023, 10:23:26 AMFor how great the initial reviews of this truck are, the main problem is the price. 80 grand (well ten dollars less than 80 grand which is the upper limit in price for a vehicle to qualify for the federal tax subsidy). So even if you get the federal tax subsidy, that's near 80 grand total price once you include state tax etc. At 5% apr for 60 months that's $1500/month.
Unlike other Tesla vehicles, the Cybertruck is also not going to be sold in Europe.
Musk: "we dug our own grave with Cybertruck"
Tesla will be fine. Model 3 and Model Y, especially with recent updates, will continue to sell very well. I don't know if an 80 grand vehicle with likely extremely high auto body repair costs (and therefore high insurance costs) will sell > 100,000 a year.
You can still get a $7500 lease credit... So the price ends up being in the meat of the premium "truck" market.
Quote from: veeman on December 03, 2023, 10:23:26 AMFor how great the initial reviews of this truck are, the main problem is the price. 80 grand (well ten dollars less than 80 grand which is the upper limit in price for a vehicle to qualify for the federal tax subsidy). So even if you get the federal tax subsidy, that's near 80 grand total price once you include state tax etc. At 5% apr for 60 months that's $1500/month.
Unlike other Tesla vehicles, the Cybertruck is also not going to be sold in Europe.
Musk: "we dug our own grave with Cybertruck"
Tesla will be fine. Model 3 and Model Y, especially with recent updates, will continue to sell very well. I don't know if an 80 grand vehicle with likely extremely high auto body repair costs (and therefore high insurance costs) will sell > 100,000 a year.
Tesla will adjust prices based on demand.
Other car manufacturers do it through their dealers with large discounts. BMW famously does it through heavily subsidized leases.
Tesla sells direct and has to do it with very public price cuts or incentives.
Thus Tesla is one of the few car companies that has actually reduced prices over the years.
A Tesla model S plaid now costs less (90k) than the performance trim did when it was introduced in 2012 (106k). That's not even accounting for inflation. The original S performance had something like 414hp and 265 milez of range and the plaid has 1020hp and nearly 400 miles of range.
The Model X also costs less, is far more powerful and has more range than when it was introduced. Similar story for the 3 and Y when prices were cut by 10 to 15k.
On the Tesla forums they can pretty much predict when another price cut is coming by looking at the number of in inventory units.
Tesla has priced the cybertruck at a high price because it thinks it has the demand and they know supply will be low due to manufacturing challenges. When/If production picks up and inventory piles up, the price cuts will come.
Which is funny, as other companies do the opposite- start low and raise prices (profit also goes up as manufacturing cost goes down) as a model proves popular.
Quote from: 565 on December 03, 2023, 06:30:22 PMTesla will adjust prices based on demand.
Other car manufacturers do it through their dealers with large discounts. BMW famously does it through heavily subsidized leases.
Tesla sells direct and has to do it with very public price cuts or incentives.
Thus Tesla is one of the few car companies that has actually reduced prices over the years.
A Tesla model S plaid now costs less (90k) than the performance trim did when it was introduced in 2012 (106k). That's not even accounting for inflation. The original S performance had something like 414hp and 265 milez of range and the plaid has 1020hp and nearly 400 miles of range.
The Model X also costs less, is far more powerful and has more range than when it was introduced. Similar story for the 3 and Y when prices were cut by 10 to 15k.
On the Tesla forums they can pretty much predict when another price cut is coming by looking at the number of in inventory units.
Tesla has priced the cybertruck at a high price because it thinks it has the demand and they know supply will be low due to manufacturing challenges. When/If production picks up and inventory piles up, the price cuts will come.
ok, but based on Elon's public statements:
- The Ford Lightning is a good vehicle, just somewhat expensive, especially given the high interest rates these days for any kind of loan
- We dug our own grave with the Cybertruck
I have a feeling he's not trying to price the Cybertruck as high as it currently is because of the demand for it but instead he underestimated how expensive the truck would be to make and how difficult it would be to scale up production of it given the materials used.
You are right though that if he can scale up production because of the continuous demand, he'll probably be able to drop the price a little bit.
I don't know what the long term demand will be for an 80 thousand dollar truck, which can't do well many pickup truck things, no matter how cool it is. 100 thousand vehicles a year, perhaps some sort of benchmark, is a lot.
Steer by wire. A system OEMs have been playing with for awhile and require multiple back ups and tons of testing.
Tesla just throwing it out there. A company with deep experience in redundant systems and validation. Surely this will go well.
Again: Tesla's competitive edge is risk tolerance. And it's not good for the consumer or anyone else on the road.
It's clearly rocket science...
Quote from: MrH on December 04, 2023, 08:17:02 AMSteer by wire. A system OEMs have been playing with for awhile and require multiple back ups and tons of testing.
Tesla just throwing it out there. A company with deep experience in redundant systems and validation. Surely this will go well.
Again: Tesla's competitive edge is risk tolerance. And it's not good for the consumer or anyone else on the road.
WtP and Tesla fanbois love the drama though, without which Tesla wouldn't be 10% of what it is today.
Xxx-by-wire has been in effective use (esp. aerospace) for 50+ years. Tesla may have screwed it up, but unlike the hoax of autonomous driving, xxx-by-wire is proven engineering (as is electric motors and power electronics), meaning it's relatively easy to do.
Quote from: MrH on December 04, 2023, 08:17:02 AMSteer by wire. A system OEMs have been playing with for awhile and require multiple back ups and tons of testing.
Tesla just throwing it out there. A company with deep experience in redundant systems and validation. Surely this will go well.
Again: Tesla's competitive edge is risk tolerance. And it's not good for the consumer or anyone else on the road.
Apparently when asked about this by people doing the factory tour* the guy there said there's the primary system, a redundant system, and a third backup on top of that allows it to operate for a short while without the 48V system.
*edit
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 04, 2023, 10:55:32 AMApparently when asked about this by people doing the factory the guy there said there's the primary system, a redundant system, and a third backup on top of that allows it to operate for a short while without the 48V system.
Yes, yes. I'm sure this company that comically misses on so many basic things has it totally under control.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 04, 2023, 10:55:32 AMApparently when asked about this by people doing the factory the guy there said there's the primary system, a redundant system, and a third backup on top of that allows it to operate for a short while without the 48V system.
Which guy? I'm extremely skeptical about that last claim. It implies an extremely large capacitor or yet another 48V battery acting as a buffer - and a pretty large battery at that, to deal with the big loads.
Quote from: Laconian on December 04, 2023, 02:05:06 PMWhich guy? I'm extremely skeptical about that last claim. It implies an extremely large capacitor or yet another 48V battery acting as a buffer - and a pretty large battery at that, to deal with the big loads.
Honestly I don't know - someone in the factory doing show & tell. They gave tours of the production line to people who'd been invited to the (unrehearsed & unchoreographed) delivery event. But yes, if true, it would have to be super beefy - there are two 5 HP actuators to deal with.
Tours of the production line...not actually running or ready to run in any way.
The Greatest Show on Earth ™ !
The comment at the bottom. :lol:
Screenshot_20231204-171239.jpg
Saw a clip that doors stop rifle rounds if they're at 45deg angle, but not as much straight perpendicular..
I'm not overly familiar with what is going on WRT the Cybertruck, but nearly every negative remark I've herd in the past few weeks could be replaced with "Model 3" or "Model S" going back a decade and the conversation would be virtually unchanged. That goes for here, Reddit, other car forums, social media, etc.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 04, 2023, 03:14:33 PMThe comment at the bottom. :lol:
Screenshot_20231204-171239.jpg
The same argument could be applied to any new car purchase.
Quote from: Submariner2 on December 04, 2023, 05:00:13 PMI'm not overly familiar with what is going on WRT the Cybertruck, but nearly every negative remark I've herd in the past few weeks could be replaced with "Model 3" or "Model S" going back a decade and the conversation would be virtually unchanged. That goes for here, Reddit, other car forums, social media, etc.
This one's a positive take: I wouldn't mind seeing the "How to Design a 48V Vehicle" pdf.
(production style is very Top Gear.)
I found out that Audi's been running 48V since 2017. Their mild hybrids use a primary system running at 48V with DC-DC converters for the legacy electronics. 48V is not uncommon on new boats, particularly sailboats with hybrid diesels. Tally Ho on YouTube uses it.
Personally I would be pretty surprised if the Cybertruck was pure 48V from bow to stern. There are so many electric bits and bobs that are shared with higher volume cars like the Model 3 and Model Y - door latches, window motors, seat heaters, etc. It would frontload a ton of unnecessary costs onto the CT. I'm guessing they also have a DC-DC converter just like the Audi.
Wouldn't it be nice if actual journalists got a chance to review the CT? By being considered "released" isn't it fair game for getting some actual answers?
Quote from: Submariner2 on December 04, 2023, 05:00:13 PMI'm not overly familiar with what is going on WRT the Cybertruck, but nearly every negative remark I've herd in the past few weeks could be replaced with "Model 3" or "Model S" going back a decade and the conversation would be virtually unchanged. That goes for here, Reddit, other car forums, social media, etc.
In what ways is it similar? My recollection of the Model S launch and reaction must be very different from yours.
Quote from: Laconian on December 05, 2023, 11:09:19 AMI found out that Audi's been running 48V since 2017. Their mild hybrids use a primary system running at 48V with DC-DC converters for the legacy electronics. 48V is not uncommon on new boats, particularly sailboats with hybrid diesels. Tally Ho on YouTube uses it.
Personally I would be pretty surprised if the Cybertruck was pure 48V from bow to stern. There are so many electric bits and bobs that are shared with higher volume cars like the Model 3 and Model Y - door latches, window motors, seat heaters, etc. It would frontload a ton of unnecessary costs onto the CT. I'm guessing they also have a DC-DC converter just like the Audi.
Wouldn't it be nice if actual journalists got a chance to review the CT? By being considered "released" isn't it fair game for getting some actual answers?
There are 10, hand built examples that were "delivered" to employees under strict NDAs. This isn't a production vehicle still. Who knows how long until it will be. Regardless, I'm sure we'll hear the sad song from Elon about "production hell" and how hard it is to start up a line for a new model, despite every other OEM doing it multiple times a year, every year, ad infinitum.
Yes, I'm aware. I don't know why the press isn't doing a better job of calling a spade a spade.
Kevin (2o6) has been raging to me over IM about how feeble and tame automotive journalists are now. Writers are too cowed by the need to maintain "access" to industry stories to actually write anything critical anymore. He was physically disgusted by Camissa's commercial for the Cybertruck and unsubscribed in a huff. :lol:
Camissa was actually fairly critical of Tesla during his Lucid review on the Engineering Explained channel
Quote from: Laconian on December 05, 2023, 11:40:31 AMYes, I'm aware. I don't know why the press isn't doing a better job of calling a spade a spade.
Kevin (2o6) has been raging to me over IM about how feeble and tame automotive journalists are now. Writers are too cowed by the need to maintain "access" to industry stories to actually write anything critical anymore. He was physically disgusted by Camissa's commercial for the Cybertruck and unsubscribed in a huff. :lol:
Everyone's a journalist now such that automakers have the power. If you don't kowtow, there's a near endless pool of those that will. However, if you do kowtow, Big Things Are Coming. Look at the hit job Tesla did on that Munro goofball. You'd have to look far and wide to find a bigger shill these days - it's cringe - but it's worked out well for his career, if one can call it that.
2o6 did some sleuthing...
https://insideevs.com/news/699189/tesla-cybertruck-repair-insurance/
The problem with fingerprints alone is hilarious. Go stick your SS fridge out in the yard and see how good it looks after a week.
...why wouldn't they just clearcoat the SS to avoid such issues?
Quote from: Laconian on December 05, 2023, 04:58:55 PM2o6 did some sleuthing...
https://insideevs.com/news/699189/tesla-cybertruck-repair-insurance/
I'm sorry but this makes zero sense. You can slam the door literally with a sledgehammer and not get damage. There is going to be little in the way of a use case for paintless dent repair.
Repairs are going to be from significant incidents which requires panel replacement just like a normal vehicle. The only significant difference will be you have to do entire panels as you can't cut/weld, which is no different than carbon fiber body panels.
It's an expensive vehicle - expensive vehicles are expensive to repair. A parking lot speed impact to the front end of a Giulia QV starts at $15-20k thanks to all the carbon fiber parts. The hood alone is $7K.
A sledgehammer is not a car door, I bet the panel can still get door dents. Normally door dents are under 1" diameter, whereas a sledgehammer is what, 3-4" diameter?
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 05, 2023, 08:03:12 PMA sledgehammer is not a car door, I bet the panel can still get door dents. Normally door dents are under 1" diameter, whereas a sledgehammer is what, 3-4" diameter?
Honestly given how much damage 00 Buckshot and 9mm did to the panel at like 1000+FPS, I'd be shocked if the Cybertruck would pick up door dings from careless drivers.
The SS tough body is one of the main reasons I'm on the list for one. Honestly it feels like automotive paint and clearcoat is the most fragile substance known to man. There is an entire industry devoted to detailing cars, focused around removal and covering of fine damage.
I think I've spent an enormous amount of time, money and worry on door dings, rock chips, scratches, and swirls.
I've spent countless weekends polishing, waxing, detailing the Z06. I always park a million miles away to avoid dings. Sometimes if I can't find a parking spot that doesn't allow me to park away from door's reach from another car, I just say forget it and go somewhere else. I always go to Costco at odd hours to avoid a full parking lot.
Now that I got a kid, I just can't blow an entire weekend on detailing anymore, so I spent the money on full PPF on both the Blackwing and the X3M, and I don't worry about swirls or minor chips, but the larger impacts from rocks still tear the film and obviously door dings can still happen.
One time a hail storm hit Boston and did 9000 dollars of damage to the G37 that the insurance company reluctantly covered. Now everytime there is a severe thunderstorm I get worried if something like that is going to happen again.
If the Cybertruck ever comes I'm going to look forward to parking it whereever, never worrying about swirls, not thinking twice when there is a severe thunderstorm warning and just pressure washing it periodically.
I guess if I just didn't care about the exterior that would solve my issue, but seeing how big automotive detailing is as an industry, I'm not the only one with this disease.
Some peope see videos like this and think that's silly but honeslty demonstrations like this sell this truck for me.
https://youtube.com/shorts/spKfaqDP-gA?si=9wO4ttWZiSzqAW2x
https://youtube.com/shorts/Bq4uKZb7VM8?si=m3KL0A7HdaHYA_mv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-wz50yAHo
Quote from: Laconian on December 05, 2023, 11:40:31 AMYes, I'm aware. I don't know why the press isn't doing a better job of calling a spade a spade.
Kevin (2o6) has been raging to me over IM about how feeble and tame automotive journalists are now. Writers are too cowed by the need to maintain "access" to industry stories to actually write anything critical anymore. He was physically disgusted by Camissa's commercial for the Cybertruck and unsubscribed in a huff. :lol:
Good. Camissa's commercial also turned me off from the guy completely. I'm done with his stuff.
Quote from: r0tor on December 05, 2023, 06:59:20 PMI'm sorry but this makes zero sense. You can slam the door literally with a sledgehammer and not get damage. There is going to be little in the way of a use case for paintless dent repair.
Repairs are going to be from significant incidents which requires panel replacement just like a normal vehicle. The only significant difference will be you have to do entire panels as you can't cut/weld, which is no different than carbon fiber body panels.
It's an expensive vehicle - expensive vehicles are expensive to repair. A parking lot speed impact to the front end of a Giulia QV starts at $15-20k thanks to all the carbon fiber parts. The hood alone is $7K.
It wasn't a sledgehammer. It was a dead blow hammer. Literally designed to minimize damage.
You just can't help falling for the fraud over and over and over.
Quote from: 565 on December 06, 2023, 07:29:13 AMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-wz50yAHo
This just in: car with nearly 200hp less loses in drag race!
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 06, 2023, 07:40:41 AMThis just in: car with nearly 200hp less loses in drag race!
Urus has better power to weight than the Cybertruck.
If you want to see the Cybertruck beat a vehicle that has 150 more HP, look here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1v0FNR3-Xc
Quote from: 565 on December 06, 2023, 07:47:12 AMUrus has better power to weight than the Cybertruck.
Right, because the Urus is making 10,000lb-ft of torque or whatever the Tesla is pulling off the line...?
Quote from: MrH on December 06, 2023, 07:36:22 AMIt wasn't a sledgehammer. It was a dead blow hammer. Literally designed to minimize damage.
You just can't help falling for the fraud over and over and over.
Hit your own car with one of you think it's harmless
Quote from: Laconian on December 05, 2023, 11:21:58 AMIn what ways is it similar? My recollection of the Model S launch and reaction must be very different from yours.
Not saying any particular person is doing this - but I do recall the same atmosphere of doomerism, Musk-hate and predictions of failure going back at least a decade. By this point, it is fair to say one cannot simply straight away write off Tesla or any given product it launches.
Quote from: 565 on December 06, 2023, 07:47:12 AMUrus has better power to weight than the Cybertruck.
If you want to see the Cybertruck beat a vehicle that has 150 more HP, look here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1v0FNR3-Xc
That Urus was bad. 12.3s in the 1/4 mile? That's almost a second slower than nominal (11.4s: https://www.caranddriver.com/lamborghini/urus)
The Urus is 5300 lbs/641 hp = 8.3 lb/hp. The Hummer EV truck is 9000 lbs/1000 hp = 9 lb/hp. The Cybertruck is 6800 lbs/845 hp = 8.0 lb/hp. So, to me, the Cybertruck should be quickest overall (though my hunch is it loses a roll race the Urus per my previous post detailing the high(er) speed limitations of single speed EV performance).
Tesla seemed to mostly solve the high speed performance drop off in the Plaid with track package. Camissa commented it seemed to be solved in the Cybertruck as well.
https://twitter.com/EZebroni/status/1734410603136241763?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1734410603136241763%7Ctwgr%5Eda932b94cfcb98218a073278c0f6e07b0ec56946%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Finsideevs.com%2Fnews%2F700498%2Fford-truck-rescues-tesla-cybertruck-snowy-hill%2F
I would think that most pickups would cruise up that little hill, snow or no snow.
Haha. But to be fair, a part of it is tires, particularly those tires look way too pressurized.
I'm guessing that was the triple motor version? Two motors in the rear, one in the front? Even with bad, over inflated tires, the rears are all over the place in terms of control just spin a ton. Seems like a lot of "opportunity" to fine tune traction control.
I don't think the dual motor version has a locking differential at all? This thing will never be great off road.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 06, 2023, 08:00:23 AMRight, because the Urus is making 10,000lb-ft of torque or whatever the Tesla is pulling off the line...?
It might actually.
Tesla is stating wheel torque for the Cybertruck, NOT the engine torque that is the standard in the industry. HummerEV also used wheel torque.
Quote from: MrH on December 13, 2023, 07:56:52 AMI don't think the dual motor version has a locking differential at all? This thing will never be great off road.
The dual motor version has a locking front and rear, which is why many suspect it might the better off-road version.
No auto company has gotten the calibration of multi engine power distribution down pat. Even the Rivian with it's on paper superior 4 engines version is disappointing.
https://youtu.be/adZztW0YbJ0?si=zoU32skqsr8pcP9G
apillar.jpg
Wow... those A pillars really are something. The unobstructed field of view from the driver's seat must be like 30 degrees.
I like how they used the Fit's Magic Seat idea but the cushion barely even touched his thighs!
Quote from: Laconian on December 13, 2023, 08:45:03 PMapillar.jpg
Wow... those A pillars really are something. The unobstructed field of view from the driver's seat must be like 30 degrees.
I like how they used the Fit's Magic Seat idea but the cushion barely even touched his thighs!
That looks like a badly generated AI image of a car's interior.
Quote from: Galaxy on December 13, 2023, 04:40:00 PMThe dual motor version has a locking front and rear, which is why many suspect it might the better off-road version.
No auto company has gotten the calibration of multi engine power distribution down pat. Even the Rivian with it's on paper superior 4 engines version is disappointing.
Also, the types of people buying a Cybertruck probably have very little off-road experience (no judgement, just a guess), but since it says "truck" in the name, they suppose it'll just automatically do offroady truck things for them.
There's more truck in "Truck" than there is sport in "Sport Utility Vehicle."
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 14, 2023, 12:46:10 PMThere's more truck in "Truck" than there is sport in "Sport Utility Vehicle."
I disagree ... Most "trucks" these days are bloated 4 door soccer mom mobiles with pretty useless 5.5' beds and front aid dams that lower the ground clearance to crossover levels and equipped with gigantic wheels with fairly low profile street tires
Quote from: r0tor on December 14, 2023, 02:36:38 PMI disagree ... Most "trucks" these days are bloated 4 door soccer mom mobiles with pretty useless 5.5' beds and front aid dams that lower the ground clearance to crossover levels and equipped with gigantic wheels with fairly low profile street tires
Yeah because just like most people with SUVs, most trucks rarely go off road, but that doesn't mean they don't get used as trucks. Trucks are meant to haul a bunch of stuff from place to place, and the ultimate version of that, the semi truck, is pretty garbage off road.
Even a 5.5 foot bed hauls more than most SUVs, and with a few exceptions most 1/2 ton trucks will tow more than their full size body on frame SUV counterparts and cost less.
My dad uses his Tundra to haul a bunch of fishing stuff and rods, haul a bunch of dirty gardening supplies and dirt/mulch etc, and tow a 28 foot boat. He has never taken it off road. He got the offroad TRD Pro trim, but the least useful part of the truck is the offroadness of it (no air dam, fox shocks, lift, offroad tires, locking rear diff and multi terrain select).
A normal street trim Tundra with the fuel saving air dam, less ground clearance, and street tires would have served him better in how he and probably 99% of people use their trucks. The offroadness to it is really just for the looks, just like how most people with wranglers, broncos, defenders, rarely take them offroad beyond what a family crossover can do.
If anything off road capability compromises the other true truck capabilites such as payload and towing. The Raptor and TRX had significantly less towing and payload than their standard counterparts. Trucks are supposed to carry more and tow more stuff than you can in other vehicles. To that end today's trucks do usually deliver with higher tow and haul ratings than ever before.
Quote from: r0tor on December 14, 2023, 02:36:38 PMI disagree ... Most "trucks" these days are bloated 4 door soccer mom mobiles with pretty useless 5.5' beds and front aid dams that lower the ground clearance to crossover levels and equipped with gigantic wheels with fairly low profile street tires
My point is, even with 5½-ft beds, trucks are better and doing truck type stuff than SUVs are at doing anything "sporty," unless the sport is competitive sitting three inches higher than in a sedan. It's a nomenclature thing.
Like a "sharing" size bag of M&Ms. Everyone knows that "sharing" is code for "fatso-portion size."
Totally for last two posts!!
And the "Tremor" Maverick can only tow 2000ish lbs vs the regular 4000lbs turbo version..
Quote from: 565 on December 15, 2023, 09:59:15 PMYeah because just like most people with SUVs, most trucks rarely go off road, but that doesn't mean they don't get used as trucks. Trucks are meant to haul a bunch of stuff from place to place, and the ultimate version of that, the semi truck, is pretty garbage off road.
Even a 5.5 foot bed hauls more than most SUVs, and with a few exceptions most 1/2 ton trucks will tow more than their full size body on frame SUV counterparts and cost less.
My dad uses his Tundra to haul a bunch of fishing stuff and rods, haul a bunch of dirty gardening supplies and dirt/mulch etc, and tow a 28 foot boat. He has never taken it off road. He got the offroad TRD Pro trim, but the least useful part of the truck is the offroadness of it (no air dam, fox shocks, lift, offroad tires, locking rear diff and multi terrain select).
A normal street trim Tundra with the fuel saving air dam, less ground clearance, and street tires would have served him better in how he and probably 99% of people use their trucks. The offroadness to it is really just for the looks, just like how most people with wranglers, broncos, defenders, rarely take them offroad beyond what a family crossover can do.
If anything off road capability compromises the other true truck capabilites such as payload and towing. The Raptor and TRX had significantly less towing and payload than their standard counterparts. Trucks are supposed to carry more and tow more stuff than you can in other vehicles. To that end today's trucks do usually deliver with higher tow and haul ratings than ever before.
On a percentage basis - how often is it used as a "truck" and the 98% of the time it is not, is it the best tool for doing that
Quote from: r0tor on December 14, 2023, 02:36:38 PMI disagree ... Most "trucks" these days are bloated 4 door soccer mom mobiles with pretty useless 5.5' beds and front aid dams that lower the ground clearance to crossover levels and equipped with gigantic wheels with fairly low profile street tires
100% agree with my new BFF r0tor here. Modern pickup trucks are terrible across the board ESPECIALLY for pickup truck things. Just when one thinks that it can't possibly get worse, it does. Will mos def be sociological study fodder in the distant future.
Quote from: 565 on December 15, 2023, 09:59:15 PMYeah because just like most people with SUVs, most trucks rarely go off road, but that doesn't mean they don't get used as trucks. Trucks are meant to haul a bunch of stuff from place to place, and the ultimate version of that, the semi truck, is pretty garbage off road.
Even a 5.5 foot bed hauls more than most SUVs, and with a few exceptions most 1/2 ton trucks will tow more than their full size body on frame SUV counterparts and cost less.
My dad uses his Tundra to haul a bunch of fishing stuff and rods, haul a bunch of dirty gardening supplies and dirt/mulch etc, and tow a 28 foot boat. He has never taken it off road. He got the offroad TRD Pro trim, but the least useful part of the truck is the offroadness of it (no air dam, fox shocks, lift, offroad tires, locking rear diff and multi terrain select).
A normal street trim Tundra with the fuel saving air dam, less ground clearance, and street tires would have served him better in how he and probably 99% of people use their trucks. The offroadness to it is really just for the looks, just like how most people with wranglers, broncos, defenders, rarely take them offroad beyond what a family crossover can do.
If anything off road capability compromises the other true truck capabilites such as payload and towing. The Raptor and TRX had significantly less towing and payload than their standard counterparts. Trucks are supposed to carry more and tow more stuff than you can in other vehicles. To that end today's trucks do usually deliver with higher tow and haul ratings than ever before.
When it comes down to it, utility is the ultimate luxury these days. Having a vehicle that can do it all without having the 2% of time where you're shit out of luck is a luxury.
It's more of a security blanket IMO. :lol:
I think we've lost our capacity for improvisation and adaptation. We want to buy readymade solutions with all the capability we might need in advance. Back when I was a kid my dad would rent a trailer from a place two miles away and hook it up to the station wagon when he needed to haul topsoil or whatnot.
Our jack of all trade vehicles might do a lot but they the tradeoffs are still present and they are largely offloaded to society in the form of externalities.
My god, if I could count on multiple hands the number of vehicles with "AWD" that wouldn't be stuck in the first place in the snow if they had proper ground clearance and/or a legit 4WD instead of the bullshit they consider 4WD/AWD these days.
Ground clearance is king. None of the CUVs or utes have it.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 12, 2023, 05:50:45 PMhttps://twitter.com/EZebroni/status/1734410603136241763?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1734410603136241763%7Ctwgr%5Eda932b94cfcb98218a073278c0f6e07b0ec56946%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Finsideevs.com%2Fnews%2F700498%2Fford-truck-rescues-tesla-cybertruck-snowy-hill%2F
I would think that most pickups would cruise up that little hill, snow or no snow.
I have a low range and three mechanical lockers. If I was running the wrong tires at high PSI I'd be having the same issues.
Electronic gizmos are great (really) but tires are ultimately what is making contact with the surface. No amount of digital wizardry will change that.
Quote from: Submariner2 on December 16, 2023, 11:15:53 PMElectronic gizmos are great (really) but tires are ultimately what is making contact with the surface. No amount of digital wizardry will change that.
You'd be amazed and heartbroken seeing what a seemingly junk XJ on shit tires with open diffs can do in the hands of a skilled driver.
The electro gizmos are nothing but a hindrance in practical offroading. And that's coming from somebody who has used Toyota's Crawl Control out of curiosity. It's basically garbage if you have any inkling of how to drive offroad.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 16, 2023, 08:45:06 PMMy god, if I could count on multiple hands the number of vehicles with "AWD" that wouldn't be stuck in the first place in the snow if they had proper ground clearance and/or a legit 4WD instead of the bullshit they consider 4WD/AWD these days.
Ground clearance is king. None of the CUVs or utes have it.
well, according to C&D the average Silverado 4x4 that most people buy only has 8.08" of ground clearance
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 17, 2023, 12:24:39 AMYou'd be amazed and heartbroken seeing what a seemingly junk XJ on shit tires with open diffs can do in the hands of a skilled driver.
The electro gizmos are nothing but a hindrance in practical offroading. And that's coming from somebody who has used Toyota's Crawl Control out of curiosity. It's basically garbage if you have any inkling of how to drive offroad.
I guess that is true to some extent. The stock Geolander A/S tires on my G were surprisingly good on sloppy terrain. Not nearly as much as the Ridge Grapplers, but still.
I'm also amazed (but not heartbroken) having seen first hand how guys in $120,000 built wranglers have wrecked their "rigs" doing things way beyond their skillset :lol:
Quote from: r0tor on December 17, 2023, 08:28:45 AMwell, according to C&D the average Silverado 4x4 that most people buy only has 8.08" of ground clearance
Which makes sense - 99% of Silverado drivers will never drive off road in any serious fashion.
Quote from: r0tor on December 17, 2023, 08:28:45 AMwell, according to C&D the average Silverado 4x4 that most people buy only has 8.08" of ground clearance
Same as Maverick or an Outback. :huh:
Wife and I were watching "The Santa Clause", there's a first gen Taurus SHO in it. That's truly my "dream to restore and drive" car.
But she asked if I had to pick one car and drive it the rest of my life what would I pick- answer right now is Maverick....
Quote from: Submariner2 on December 17, 2023, 11:43:08 AMWhich makes sense - 99% of Silverado drivers will drive off road in any serious fashion.
Most crossovers have as much or more ground clearance... So once again not a whole lot of truck in a modern truck
Quote from: r0tor on December 17, 2023, 08:28:45 AMwell, according to C&D the average Silverado 4x4 that most people buy only has 8.08" of ground clearance
That's because you apparently don't understand how they measure ground clearance. They measure it at the lowest point, which on a truck is typically the bottom of the rear pumpkin.
The real, effective ground clearance is much greater than that. Hence a Subaru with 8" of ground clearance will get stuck with it's flat bottom way before a truck with "8 inches" of ground clearance does, because it actually has a good deal more "effective" ground clearance between the ground and the frame and its other dangling bits.
Look underneath a truck some time. Might surprise you how much clearance there is...you can lay on a dolly and get under a truck without a jack...good luck doing that with an 8" Subie or similar CUV/ute/thing.
Quote from: r0tor on December 17, 2023, 01:15:05 PMMost crossovers have as much or more ground clearance... So once again not a whole lot of truck in a modern truck
You have no clue what you're talking about. See above post.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 17, 2023, 02:34:51 PMThat's because you apparently don't understand how they measure ground clearance. They measure it at the lowest point, which on a truck is typically the bottom of the rear pumpkin.
The real, effective ground clearance is much greater than that. Hence a Subaru with 8" of ground clearance will get stuck with it's flat bottom way before a truck with "8 inches" of ground clearance does, because it actually has a good deal more "effective" ground clearance between the ground and the frame and its other dangling bits.
Look underneath a truck some time. Might surprise you how much clearance there is...you can lay on a dolly and get under a truck without a jack...good luck doing that with an 8" Subie or similar CUV/ute/thing.
It's the front air dam that all non "offroad" edition trucks now come with for better fuel mileage
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 17, 2023, 02:34:51 PMThe real, effective ground clearance is much greater than that.
Definitely
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 17, 2023, 02:34:51 PMThat's because you apparently don't understand how they measure ground clearance. They measure it at the lowest point, which on a truck is typically the bottom of the rear pumpkin.
The real, effective ground clearance is much greater than that. Hence a Subaru with 8" of ground clearance will get stuck with it's flat bottom way before a truck with "8 inches" of ground clearance does, because it actually has a good deal more "effective" ground clearance between the ground and the frame and its other dangling bits.
Look underneath a truck some time. Might surprise you how much clearance there is...you can lay on a dolly and get under a truck without a jack...good luck doing that with an 8" Subie or similar CUV/ute/thing.
When the ground clearance is 8" but the approach angle is 15%
Quote from: r0tor on December 17, 2023, 02:48:29 PMIt's the front air dam that all non "offroad" edition trucks now come with for better fuel mileage
That's a big part of it, but even if you were to remove the dam you'd still be left with a truck that doesn't have much clearance. And that is fine because that truck isn't likely going to need those 8" of ground clearance.
Quote from: r0tor on December 17, 2023, 01:15:05 PMMost crossovers have as much or more ground clearance... So once again not a whole lot of truck in a modern truck
Eh...I'm old enough to remember Chevy C/K's and RAM 250's and F-series before they became F2150 sooper doodie doolies with 11" skyjacker kits. Maybe some of them had the off road package but a lot of old work trucks were strictly for asphalt or well maintained dirt roads. Nothing wrong with that because it's what they were built for: farms, job sites, etc.
There is a MotorWeek retro review of some mid/late 80's 2 door hardtop (could have been a Yukon or the Blazer before it downsized) and it was mentioned that it only had 8 or 9" of clearance (which John Davis seemed to think was more than enough).
Quote from: r0tor on December 17, 2023, 02:48:29 PMIt's the front air dam that all non "offroad" edition trucks now come with for better fuel mileage
Congrats on being focused on one piece of plastic. You have no clue what you're talking about. :wtf:
Quote from: Submariner2 on December 17, 2023, 06:02:41 PMWhen the ground clearance is 8" but the approach angle is 15%
My god, none of you have ever driven more than a dirt road. This forum saddens me when it thinks a Subaru has as much clearance as a truck.
Quote from: Submariner2 on December 17, 2023, 06:02:41 PMWhen the ground clearance is 8" but the approach angle is 15%
Good luck in a snow storm, bud. That 8" Subie/CUV will be stuck way before the "8"" truck. lol
You guys seriously have no idea. It's kind of scary how retarded this conversation is.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 17, 2023, 09:09:37 PMCongrats on being focused on one piece of plastic. You have no clue what you're talking about. :wtf:
So your cool with a truck that is effectively a snowplow for crossovers... So rugged
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 17, 2023, 09:17:36 PMGood luck in a snow storm, bud. That 8" Subie/CUV will be stuck way before the "8"" truck. lol
You guys seriously have no idea. It's kind of scary how retarded this conversation is.
I think you and I are in agreement about ground clearance and which vehicle would perform better in the snow...I was making a joke about the horrible approach (and departure) angles on those Outbacks and Foresters.
Quote from: r0tor on December 18, 2023, 05:40:40 AMSo your cool with a truck that is effectively a snowplow for crossovers... So rugged
...yup. Because that truck won't get stuck. Again, you have no clue what you're talking about. Shift those goal posts as much as you want. You've never wheeled in your life and it is so obvious. :wtf:
Hopefully to get to your goal posts the snow isn't draper than 8.1"
I also guess I missed the message when driving a truck with next to no weight on one axle was better than an SAuV with similar tires/clearances with 4 relatively evenly loaded tires ... Keep wheeling though
I literally won't even respond. The amount of mental retardation here is strong.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 18, 2023, 06:59:21 PMI literally won't even respond. The amount of mental retardation here is strong.
I blocked him a long time ago. Better to let him just scream into the void.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 19, 2023, 03:18:40 PM
That was the prototype from 3 years ago
https://youtu.be/BGDOKD7ZZqI?si=jPozV7R3_fuCVclx
This is the new one now.
...
I finally watched the Hagerty video.
Was Randy's kart a single gear instead of shifter kart? I saw it's a Tonykart but they offer both. A shifter kart should have been faster than what they showed.
I'm extremely skeptical of steer-by-wire. Not because of reliability or anything, I just dislike video game force feedback. I don't want my vehicle to feel like a video game. It's been a trope since the R35 GT-R came out, but steer-by-wire with FFB is 100% video game.
The lack of a rearview mirror is annoying too.
48V electronics is nice. In typical Tesla fashion, they do some things really well and then wrap it in some really unnecessary crap. I think the best vehicles will continue to be more conventional ones that get some trickle-down tech from Tesla (and better build quality)
I'm dubious about the reliability of CT's SBW. Tesla's relaxed attitude towards QA with FSD Beta makes me dubious that they'll have tested it enough before pushing it out to the public. The concept behind SBW might be established and considered "reliable", but this particular implementation of SBW is brand new. There are going to be bugs, because V1 software always has bugs.
My truck has electric steering with vibration when lane warming is turned on. Because it's Ford they went with traditional steering shaft, but it's amazing how well the power steering works and feels without being too "boosted" like some minivans etc...
I agree I wouldn't want current SBW solutions. Eventually it will get good enough.
If you have the audacity to drive 75mph with climate control on, expect 800Wh/mi. That's an XL charge session after an hour and a half of driving.
It's deep in the zone of "nonsensical truck" zone of spiraling mass and inefficiency.
https://electrek.co/2024/01/04/tesla-cybertruck-drives-254-miles-in-highway-range-test/
46 degrees. 254 mile range. The pack is 123kWh, so we're talking 2mi/kWh or 500Wh/mi. That's far better than 800Wh/mi, but the overall range still significantly underperforms versus Rivian or even the Ford F150 Lightning.
It seems to be in line with the rivals actually. There is no answer for piss poor EV truck efficiency. It's all a numbers game. The EV drivetrain is super efficient, therefore friction and drag are the prime drivers of EV truck efficiency. They are massive boxes with tires not optimized for mileage.
Nobody can solve that problem as there is literally no answer.
A coworker basically told me in his Lightening for every hour you drive on the highway, you need a half hour to charge.
They need to lighten the Lightning.
Quote from: Laconian on January 04, 2024, 05:50:23 PMhttps://electrek.co/2024/01/04/tesla-cybertruck-drives-254-miles-in-highway-range-test/
46 degrees. 254 mile range. The pack is 123kWh, so we're talking 2mi/kWh or 500Wh/mi. That's far better than 800Wh/mi, but the overall range still significantly underperforms versus Rivian or even the Ford F150 Lightning.
I'm guessing they're all about the same level of turrrribulllness - and also illustrative of why EV flight is similarly a no-go for most situations.
Not necessarily. The half-ton ICE truck template might not work well, but there is a whole world of possibilities for useful electrified utility vehicles. The Canoo and the Rivian delivery van show what's possible with some lateral thinking. The fragile American male ego might not embrace it, but there is a lot of potential for companies and governments with modest around-town needs.
Quote from: Laconian on January 05, 2024, 12:12:46 PMNot necessarily. The half-ton ICE truck template might not work well, but there is a whole world of possibilities for useful electrified utility vehicles. The Canoo and the Rivian delivery van show what's possible with some lateral thinking. The fragile American male ego might not embrace it, but there is a lot of potential for companies and governments with modest around-town needs.
I remember in the '50s when milk vans were "electrified." People didn't like a noisy I/C engine that early in the morning. All you heard was the rattling of the milk bottles.
That sounds idyllic.
My early mornings are punctuated with uncorked RAMs and WRXes attempting to hit vmax.
Quote from: FoMoJo on January 05, 2024, 02:15:11 PMI remember in the '50s when milk vans were "electrified." People didn't like a noisy I/C engine that early in the morning. All you heard was the rattling of the milk bottles.
Silent Fedex/UPS trucks would be kinda nice, but also it's fun to hear my car parts about to be delivered
Quote from: Laconian on January 05, 2024, 02:21:20 PMThat sounds idyllic.
My early mornings are punctuated with uncorked RAMs and WRXes attempting to hit vmax.
Never move here. You might hear a train horn, a snowmobile rippin' 9k RPM, feel a mine blast, or, god forbid, somebody that has a slight exhaust leak warming up their car in the morning.
The horror!
You have money. Build your house better, get rid of the noise if you want to.
Quote from: giant_mtb on January 05, 2024, 02:45:46 PMNever move here. You might hear a train horn, a snowmobile rippin' 9k RPM, feel a mine blast, or, god forbid, somebody that has a slight exhaust leak warming up their car in the morning.
The horror!
You have money. Build your house better, get rid of the noise if you want to.
That would involve a pretty big move. Everything's packing in right now. GPS maps really screwed us over because they turned a fairly modest, unknown road into a major bypass route for commuters on the congested interstates.
Quote from: Laconian on January 05, 2024, 03:06:21 PMThat would involve a pretty big move. Everything's packing in right now. GPS maps really screwed us over because they turned a fairly modest, unknown road into a major bypass route for commuters on the congested interstates.
You must be my next door neighbor, because that sounds exactly like my house.
And in general cars have become noisier than 10 years ago. Cops don't issue noise violations anymore. I've read a number of local Subaru club posts where people gloat about how much more lax it is in Seattle than it is in LA.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on January 05, 2024, 03:08:09 PMYou must be my next door neighbor, because that sounds exactly like my house.
I've heard of people towing Radio Flyer wagons full of old phones hooked up to Google Maps to build an illusion of traffic jams.
Quote from: Laconian on January 05, 2024, 03:28:24 PMI've heard of people towing Radio Flyer wagons full of old phones hooked up to Google Maps to build an illusion of traffic jams.
Very interesting... :lol:
Quote from: Laconian on January 05, 2024, 03:28:24 PMI've heard of people towing Radio Flyer wagons full of old phones hooked up to Google Maps to build an illusion of traffic jams.
That's quite the hobby
https://www.wired.com/story/99-phones-fake-google-maps-traffic-jam/
Quote from: FoMoJo on January 05, 2024, 02:15:11 PMI remember in the '50s when milk vans were "electrified." People didn't like a noisy I/C engine that early in the morning. All you heard was the rattling of the milk bottles.
All my Amazon deliveries are now via their Rivian EV vans. Very welcomed. The UPS trucks are the worst - just loud, crude (= CHEAP) junk. How they're road legal with all that racket is a scam.
Just like with forklifts, electric versions have their place. Routes can be planned around EV range, and they can be refueled in off hours without having to visit a pump.
Wait until they start modding the electric trucks.
There are Maverick owners who complain when they put wider tires, lift them, and remove the "unsightly" air deflectors in front of the tires that mileage goes down... :huh: :facepalm:
Quote from: Laconian on January 05, 2024, 12:12:46 PMNot necessarily. The half-ton ICE truck template might not work well, but there is a whole world of possibilities for useful electrified utility vehicles. The Canoo and the Rivian delivery van show what's possible with some lateral thinking. The fragile American male ego might not embrace it, but there is a lot of potential for companies and governments with modest around-town needs.
Agreed, all with highly predictable local routes & usage, perfect for fleet management & intelligent charging strategies: deliveries, HVAC techs, ISPs, plumbers, electricians, pest control etc.
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 05, 2024, 10:47:31 AMThey need to lighten the Lightning.
With regen, weight isn't really that big of an efficiency issue.
The EV drivetrain is 90% efficient. That means 90% of the battery goes to friction losses, aero drag, and parasitic losses from cooling/HVAC/infotainment. There is literally not much in those areas to ever get significant efficiency gains from.
Quote from: Laconian on January 05, 2024, 03:06:21 PMThat would involve a pretty big move. Everything's packing in right now. GPS maps really screwed us over because they turned a fairly modest, unknown road into a major bypass route for commuters on the congested interstates.
I can empathize with that. It's no fun when your quiet area becomes unreasonably trafficked (aka, how I feel about the entire UP :lol:).
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on January 06, 2024, 05:09:01 AMWait until they start modding the electric trucks.
There are Maverick owners who complain when they put wider tires, lift them, and remove the "unsightly" air deflectors in front of the tires that mileage goes down... :huh: :facepalm:
I wonder how much range the angry jeep eyes will lose
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 06, 2024, 06:55:30 AMAgreed, all with highly predictable local routes & usage, perfect for fleet management & intelligent charging strategies: deliveries, HVAC techs, ISPs, plumbers, electricians, pest control etc.
I think that might be overthinking it. Just some vans and some L2 chargers at Joe Blow's HVAC biz. Contractors spend most of their time parked and I'm guessing their clientele are seldom more than 30 miles apart.
"I'm sorry sir... You and your family will have to be cold tonight because our truck ran out of battery. Better luck tomorrow."
Quote from: Laconian on January 06, 2024, 11:35:21 AMI think that might be overthinking it. Just some vans and some L2 chargers at Joe Blow's HVAC biz. Contractors spend most of their time parked and I'm guessing their clientele are seldom more than 30 miles apart.
Good point. But a lot of the Joe Blows round here make sure someone two or three owners up the line has taken the depreciation hit, & buy old luxo-trim F150s. So not unusual to see mid-aughts-early-'10s King Ranches with dried paint for bedliners & tools of the trade piled in the back. I don't see them moving to EVs anytime soon.
The Out of Spec Review video said that all the PR "reviews" from Camissa and the like have been on the three motor Cyberbeast trim which has never been for sale and has no pricing or release data available.
The cars which actually have been sold to people have been the two motor Foundation trim models.
Was this tiny detail communicated on ANY of the videos? Didn't they all mention that the truck they were testing was the released unit, and not the Cyberbeast? It's crazy how auto journalists have debased themselves for the Tesla hype machine.
"Journalists" can be bought for pretty cheap.
The most ridiculous part of the "Founder's Edition" isn't that it's the dual motor and not the triple motor. It's that they're forced to spend $20k for autopilot and FSD, which isn't even available for it! They're forced to buy features, which don't work as claimed on the other Tesla models to begin with. But they aren't even available on the Cybertruck.
The fraud continues to reach more and more ridiculous levels every day.
https://jalopnik.com/cybertrucks-keep-getting-stuck-in-snow-1851148697
Comes with pretty junk tires, as far as tread pattern/depth appears. The fancy looking (eh, retarded looking) sidewall design makes the stock tires look a lot more trucky than they actually are.
Good video showing that while the Cybertruck can beat a Porsche 911 while towing a Porsche 911 in the 1/8th mile, it can't beat it in the 1/4 mile.
The Cybertruck is already being Osbourned. Sucks to be an early adopter.
https://www.torquenews.com/11826/elon-musk-reveals-tesla-already-working-roll-out-1st-major-cybertruck-hardware-upgrade
Quote from: Laconian on January 17, 2024, 01:37:26 PMThe Cybertruck is already being Osbourned. Sucks to be an early adopter.
https://www.torquenews.com/11826/elon-musk-reveals-tesla-already-working-roll-out-1st-major-cybertruck-hardware-upgrade
1800 lbs of drywall, amazing. [/s] Mav's bed appears to be the same size and can haul 1500lbs......
The CT's stainless steel might be "bulletproof" but it is raw and unprotected. The manual recommends that you wash it ASAP if it comes into contact with any kind of staining material, e.g. resin, road debris, bird poop, etc., otherwise it will become permanently discolored.
Screencap of the manual:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GEFL8cmXMAART-Q?format=jpg&name=medium)
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-Cybertruck-wash-immediately-pedantic-cleaning-recommendations-spark-indignation.794569.0.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Quote from: Laconian on January 19, 2024, 04:04:53 PMThe CT's stainless steel might be "bulletproof" but it is raw and unprotected. The manual recommends that you wash it ASAP if it comes into contact with any kind of staining material, e.g. resin, road debris, bird poop, etc., otherwise it will become permanently discolored.
Screencap of the manual:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GEFL8cmXMAART-Q?format=jpg&name=medium)
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-Cybertruck-wash-immediately-pedantic-cleaning-recommendations-spark-indignation.794569.0.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Uhh the model Y manual says the exact same thing nearly word for word. Just replace "exterior" with "paint" and "cybertruck" with " model Y."
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-65384C1F-86F2-44E8-A8BC-8A12E7E00A40.html
It's next level desperation when people are resorting to reading the manual to find material to write up click bait Cybertruck hate articles.
I feel like automotive clear coat is the most fragile substance known to man, you look at it and it swirls and scratches, etches etc. I've spent far too many weekends washing, waxing, buffing, sealing, ceramic coating, PPFing cars (small DIY panels). I had the Blackwing and X3M totally PPFed because I was so tired of it. I've never done any special care to any of the stainless steel stuff I own and a wash makes it look great again.
Barkeepers CybertruckOwners Friend.
(We replaced all our All-Clad stainless steel cookware recently in a class action lawsuit settlement. We sold the unwanted stuff that wasn't part of the suit and needed to clean it up - Barkeepers Friend made them look new.)
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 21, 2024, 05:49:58 AMBarkeepers CybertruckOwners Friend.
(We replaced all our All-Clad stainless steel cookware recently in a class action lawsuit settlement. We sold the unwanted stuff that wasn't part of the suit and needed to clean it up - Barkeepers Friend made them look new.)
What's the lawsuit? Dishwasher-safe claim?
Heyyyyy if you think SS is so easy to maintain, throw your fridge out on the curb for a month and try to clean it and get back to me.
Quote from: giant_mtb on January 22, 2024, 12:22:24 AMHeyyyyy if you think SS is so easy to maintain, throw your fridge out on the curb for a month and try to clean it and get back to me.
My fathers boat has SS pipe work and railings, rod holders, and fittings that has been outside and exposed to not just weather but sea water, gull droppings,fish blood and guts since 2001. I use a stainless steel cleaner for boats each spring and it looks good as new.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 21, 2024, 05:00:58 PMWhat's the lawsuit? Dishwasher-safe claim?
Exactly that; the aluminium layer sandwiched between the stainless surfaces was exposed at the rims, and ablated away in the dishwasher, exposing the sharp stainless edges. Cuts & Bandaid resulted.
Quote from: giant_mtb on January 22, 2024, 12:22:24 AMHeyyyyy if you think SS is so easy to maintain, throw your fridge out on the curb for a month and try to clean it and get back to me.
FWIW, this ginormously depends on the stainless steel alloy.
Between types, grades and alloys, there are literally thousands of different types of stainless steel, with a wide range of material properties - corrosion resistance vs. strength vs. temperature resistance vs. magnetism vs. electrical conductivity vs. machinability/workability/weldability, etc. IOW, in particular, some stainless steel is virtually impervious to the elements and some stainless steel is only somewhat better than plain carbon steel (source: minor in material science).
A quick Googlism says Tesla is being scotch on the alloy of stainless steel used. However, the DeLorean used 304, and generally speaking, some 40 years later, the exterior of those cars look fantastic if but as new - infinitely better than the average painted car of ~40 years ago. Quality stainless pots and pans are also generally 304, and they're regularly subjected to heat+salt+water which is almost like acid to plain carbon steel (and you'll never see a stained or rusted quality stainless pot or pan). Surface finish matters as well. A brushed finish (= micro roughness) mitigates the adherence of junk which mitigates corrosion - note how modern quality stainless steel kitchen appliances are virtually impervious to finger prints.
I hate both Musk and Telsa with a deep, searing, white-hot passion, but the use of stainless steel for the Cybertruck body panels is not a mistake, provided they used the proper alloy (and they probably did).
One of the youtube channels that got one recommends barkeeper's friend :wtf:
Literally having to polish away at the surface with every wash.
It's not desperation at all. "New" cybertrucks have doors that don't match. I know they were going to for dystopian Cyberpunk vibes. Ohhhhh man is it going to look like that when they're all patinaed and discolored differently.
I use a stainless cleaner for the boat which does a good job with a spritz and (after several minutes) a wipe. But you have to GTFO and breathe somewhere else while it works.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 22, 2024, 08:41:20 AMI hate both Musk and Telsa with a deep, searing, white-hot passion, but the use of stainless steel for the Cybertruck body panels is not a mistake, provided they used the proper alloy (and they probably did).
The use of stainless was justified by its function as a structure exoskeleton. It was promised as a weight savings measure first and a cool Blade Runner look second. The lie was perpetuated until for as long as practically possible until spy shots started being released of the panels being fitted to a conventional monocoque body.
I understand the CT's utility as a fashion statement. But it's really form over function, and as an engineer I get irritated seeing the rationalization (and mass belief in) the idea that it's the other way around, built from first principle thinking. The truck is simply shaped like that because it fits into Elon's sci-fi future fantasy.
Is the 304 alloy expensive? (Compared to other auto panels and/or other stainless alloys).
Quote from: Laconian on January 22, 2024, 11:41:58 AMThe use of stainless was justified by its function as a structure exoskeleton. It was promised as a weight savings measure first and a cool Blade Runner look second. The lie was perpetuated until for as long as practically possible until spy shots started being released of the panels being fitted to a conventional monocoque body.
I understand the CT's utility as a fashion statement. But it's really form over function, and as an engineer I get irritated seeing the rationalization (and mass belief in) the idea that it's the other way around, built from first principle thinking. The truck is simply shaped like that because it fits into Elon's sci-fi future fantasy.
A bit more Googlism shows the Cybertruck's body panels are 2-3x as thick as the conventional plain carbon steel panel so there is likely some strength/structural component there. That sort of stainless steel is also much more difficult to stamp, hence the SlabSPIN (just like the DeLorean).
Just the design and styling is absolutely abysmal, so there is indeed no reason for it, other than, "Make it pointy" (https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-design-sacha-baron-cohen). Even so, IMO, the Cybertruck is the least worst thing Tesla's done.
One of my favorite automotive YouTube channels - such delightful Canadians (er, plus a Brit).
No surprises - just like all of the rest of Tesla product: fast, handles, range doesn't pan out, lots of weirdo/dangerous ergo stuff, cheap/creaky interior, cheap/flinty ride. IOW, interesting, but not a great vehicle (er, truck):
Wait what?! It's not a real truck?? Shiiiiit, I never woulda guessed.
I keep finding it hilarious that Tesla tries new things which no one else does without thinking about WHY no one else does them
Wheel covers which extended past the wheel onto the tires are wearing the tires out there...
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-cybertruck-s-aero-wheel-covers-are-chewing-up-the-1851218721
It's almost as if they didn't do enough real-world testing and rushed the product out.
This will be an interesting OTA.
Haha Plus I hadn't noticed they had the tires molded to match their stupid hubcaps (re-branded as an "aero cover)?....
What a pain for a tire shop to have to align.
OH WAIT will a regular tire shop be able to service this heavy thing? Will it have to go to heavy truck garages, or DIY?....
Nah, most tire shops are equipped to handle just about anything. Cybertruck is right around the same weight as a Suburban or F250, etc, so, not a problem. A nice 2-post lift is good for at least 10,000 pounds. Some tire shops don't even bother putting your vehicle up on the lift and just use jacks for a simple tire swap as it's quicker than monkeying around with the lift.
Most tire shops I go to have low profile floor lifts for changing tires rather than 2 post lifts. Drive up and over the lift section so the lift sits between the front and rear tires. For taller trucks they do tend to just use floor jacks.
Still a big nope from me. Looks like a 6 year old designed it (the original sketched by designers were futuristic and cool, even though they were similar to what we got). It doesn't even look better in a nice color wrap:
Quote from: GoCougs on February 01, 2024, 09:00:38 PMOne of my favorite automotive YouTube channels - such delightful Canadians (er, plus a Brit).
No surprises - just like all of the rest of Tesla product: fast, handles, range doesn't pan out, lots of weirdo/dangerous ergo stuff, cheap/creaky interior, cheap/flinty ride. IOW, interesting, but not a great vehicle (er, truck):
That was a fun video. Is it the Lamborghini Countach of our times? In my own experience Lamborghinis were the only cars that caused parking lot sensations wherever they went. The nonexistent rear viz is definitely a "feature" shared by both.
I'm pretty surprised the seats don't have adjustable headrests. I thought it was just cost cutting on the 3/Y but it looks like the nonadjustable seats are here to stay, even in their high end product.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 22, 2024, 08:41:20 AMFWIW, this ginormously depends on the stainless steel alloy.
Between types, grades and alloys, there are literally thousands of different types of stainless steel, with a wide range of material properties - corrosion resistance vs. strength vs. temperature resistance vs. magnetism vs. electrical conductivity vs. machinability/workability/weldability, etc. IOW, in particular, some stainless steel is virtually impervious to the elements and some stainless steel is only somewhat better than plain carbon steel (source: minor in material science).
A quick Googlism says Tesla is being scotch on the alloy of stainless steel used. However, the DeLorean used 304, and generally speaking, some 40 years later, the exterior of those cars look fantastic if but as new - infinitely better than the average painted car of ~40 years ago. Quality stainless pots and pans are also generally 304, and they're regularly subjected to heat+salt+water which is almost like acid to plain carbon steel (and you'll never see a stained or rusted quality stainless pot or pan). Surface finish matters as well. A brushed finish (= micro roughness) mitigates the adherence of junk which mitigates corrosion - note how modern quality stainless steel kitchen appliances are virtually impervious to finger prints.
I hate both Musk and Telsa with a deep, searing, white-hot passion, but the use of stainless steel for the Cybertruck body panels is not a mistake, provided they used the proper alloy (and they probably did).
The fuck they did. lol
Quote from: Laconian on February 05, 2024, 02:26:43 PMThat was a fun video. Is it the Lamborghini Countach of our times? In my own experience Lamborghinis were the only cars that caused parking lot sensations wherever they went. The nonexistent rear viz is definitely a "feature" shared by both.
I'm pretty surprised the seats don't have adjustable headrests. I thought it was just cost cutting on the 3/Y but it looks like the nonadjustable seats are here to stay, even in their high end product.
But the Countach had always looked awesome, not awkward and sad.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 14, 2024, 03:30:00 PMThe fuck they did. lol
Sure they did (if it is indeed 301). Selecting a proper stainless steel is a straightforward thing industry has been doing for decades. Tesla is awful but they're not that awful.
Any rust is very likely from contaminants (such as metal particles from auto manufacturing) rusting on the surface. This is a common/known challenge in stainless steel construction.
And that's why you have high grade stainless, paint, wrapping, or clearcoating in those environments?
Tesla will sell you a factory clear coat for $5000. https://shop.tesla.com/product/cybertruck-satin-clear-paint-film
Why would they bother offering the upsell if it's superfluous?
Quote from: Laconian on February 15, 2024, 12:36:00 AMAnd that's why you have high grade stainless, paint, wrapping, or clearcoating in those environments?
Tesla will sell you a factory clear coat for $5000. https://shop.tesla.com/product/cybertruck-satin-clear-paint-film
Why would they bother offering the upsell if it's superfluous?
That's actually a wrap, not paint. And probably for the same reason others wrap their cars - to protect against grime, scratches, swirl marks, etc.
Think about it - the trucks are "rusting" within a day of getting wet. Only plain carbon steel rusts that fast.
Let's say it is contaminants. Wouldn't you want to clear the $120k vehicle of these prior to delivery, so your customer doesn't get rust spots 1 month into ownership?
Whether it's improper material selection, or a total lack of pre delivery prep, either way, customers should not be using bar keeper's friend immediately on their $120k vehicle.
I think the finish it likely too fine and it will constantly look like garbage. Hand prints look terrible. This thing is already an abomination and it's only going to look worse with time.
Quote from: MrH on February 15, 2024, 01:52:10 PMLet's say it is contaminants. Wouldn't you want to clear the $120k vehicle of these prior to delivery, so your customer doesn't get rust spots 1 month into ownership?
Whether it's improper material selection, or a total lack of pre delivery prep, either way, customers should not be using bar keeper's friend immediately on their $120k vehicle.
I think the finish it likely too fine and it will constantly look like garbage. Hand prints look terrible. This thing is already an abomination and it's only going to look worse with time.
You still misunderestimate Teslaism. The drama is mos def still part of the allure, and the greater the extent it is unpredictable if not crazy ass crazy ("rusting" stainless steel), the better.
The steel/iron could be from anything - manufacturing, transport, brake wear, road debris, etc. I haven't touched one yet, but the surface finish looks brushed akin to quality stainless steel appliances. Works great to minimize finger prints but stuff won't wash off easy as it does with a high gloss painted surface.
The surface is not brushed like stainless steel appliances.
Lifting fallout contaminants from normal paint surfaces is best done with a clay mitt (clay bar if it's really bad). It would be interesting to see how well that would work on the Cybertruck.
Or you could let it patina. Haha.
https://youtu.be/os6x0MC72Vg?feature=shared
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2024/04/22/tesla-cybertruck-recall-electric-truck-sales/73416419007/
The Cybertruck recall showed that 3878 were sold since it came out in November. This compares with (1st quarter sales) 7743 Lightnings, 1688 Hummer EVs, and 2399 Rivian RIT pickup trucks.
It's very early in the production run.
Very hard to predict how it will play out in 2025. 100 thousand sales? Probably too expensive.
Yes. Most vehicles that are talked about for years and highly anticipated usually sell less than 4,000 units within six months and then suddenly sell 100,000 units the next year.
:wtf:
Quote from: giant_mtb on May 04, 2024, 10:04:09 AMYes. Most vehicles that are talked about for years and highly anticipated usually sell less than 4,000 units within six months and then suddenly sell 100,000 units the next year.
:wtf:
The base model isn't available yet. Base model has a starting price of $61 grand. As of February 2024 they were only delivered to 4 states. If you go to the Tesla website right now and try to order one, the earliest delivery of any version of the Cybertruck is 2025 which is 8 months from now.
So no I don't think it unfathomable that they sell 100 thousand a year in 2025.
I don't think they will (mostly because price is still too high and probable supply chain issues). My guess is 1/3 that number. More than the Rivian R1T and Hummer EV.
The vestigial door mirrors are laughably bad. The Feds should drop the "it has to be mirrors" mandate, as they did in Europe a few years ago.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6th4AvMaxZ/?igsh=OGsybm5xcWtzZ3Rw