Maybe we need a thread for random PHEV chatter. They're cool, too!
My mom got a Niro PHEV in May after 12 years with a Prius. I just learned that she's still burning the same tank of gas that the dealer sent her home with, wildly surpassing my fuel consumption estimates that I crunched for her. She regularly drives 35 mi a day.
It's pretty impressive how a little battery goes a long way when it comes to handling actual daily real world use. The biggest sin of EVs is the upfront resource and monetary cost of range capability. PHEVs offer a better "break glass" solution IMO - just burn some fossils when you're having a one-sigma driving day.
I hope that manufacturers develop the idea further with smaller, simpler range extender motors - like the i3 but not quite so pathetic.
IOW, the Chevy Volt, but virtually no one bought it (because Chevy/not Telsa). Probably will go down as one of those inventions well before its time, to be picked up and heralded by someone else. In the least in this case we can't blame the product itself. There simply too much emotion and culture wrapped up in the automobile to expect the best product to always win out.
I'm more and more convinced that regular hybrid > phev > EV at this present time.
Too expand... Prius vs Prius Prime vs average EV
Prius vs Prius Prime....
Prime gets 44 miles from 13KWh battery. So here that first 44 miles will cost ~$2.60 to charge at home. It will then get slightly worse mileage than a regular Prius.
The regular Prius gets 56 mpg. The EV only range of the prime costs the regular Prius $2.98 at the moment and then will get better fuel mileage.
The regular hybrid has no need to hassle the owner with charging, loading of the electrical grid, installing home chargers, and Toyota can make 10 regular hybrid for the minerals needed for 1 phev.
The regular Prius weighs 400 lbs less, costs $5k less, and has an AWD option that allows it to be a year round daily driver in all parts of the country so those owners don't need a gas hog AWD winter beater
Prius vs average EV...
Average EV out there has what, about 260 miles of range out of 80KWh of battery? So 260 miles costs about $16 to charge at home. Double that at a fast charger.
The Prius at 56 mpg will cost only $1.60 more than the home charging cost. It will weigh >1,000 lbs less which means it will ride and handle significantly better. It has no hassle of charging or planning trips. No home charger costs. No electrical infrastructure or public charger issues. Toyota can make 60 Priuses for every 1 EV in terms of battery minerals. Not to mention it costs $40k vs $50k so many more people can actually afford it.
Simply put once you hit the efficiency of a new regular hybrid Prius, nothing else makes sense at the moment... Maybe 15 years from now when battery chemistry is improved, battery recycling is an actual thing, infrastructure improvements have been made, and electrical generation gets more green - then EVs will make more sense.
Another issue is the efficiency of EVs is likely not to improve much beyond the current cars. The drivetrains are already 90% efficient. All that will happen is more dense batteries for longer range which means more materials and more charging capacity is needed. ICE hybrids still probably have a decent improvement potential to go.
I think the amount you are tabulating it costs to charge an EV at home is incorrect. It costs me a little over $4 to get 130 miles of range on my car when charging at home.
I agree though there is not much or any purely financial incentive to get an EV over a hybrid and while PHEV eliminates range anxiety it also requires ICE maintenance and has a small pure EV range at a relatively high cost.
How the hell much is your electric at home?? I used $0.20 per KWh
Quote from: r0tor on August 20, 2023, 11:08:22 AMHow the hell much is your electric at home?? I used $0.20 per KWh
$0.1382 per KWh
https://www.eversource.com/content/residential/account-billing/manage-bill/about-your-bill/rates-tariffs/electric-supply-rates
I have been for the last week looking at what the App for my Emporium level 2 charger says.
My wife's commute is @ 130 miles round trip. She starts off at 80% charge. According to the App, to get back to 80% charge it has taken between 3 and 3.5 hrs of charging at a charge rate of 40A and has costed between $4 and $4.30.
That math doesn't add up.
Also is that 13 cents per KWh all in or just generation cost? My guess is that's generation and then you have another 6-8 cents for distribution.
I, and more importantly my wife, are mostly enthralled with how much nicer it is to drive the Kia EV6 than her Infiniti QX60. Lack of NVH, instant torque, active cruise control, never a need to stop for gas, makes the Infiniti feel prehistoric.
I know the Infiniti, even for an ICE, has prehistoric tech.
I don't think I could ever go back to buying an ICE car though for local commuting. Unless an electric grid Armageddon occurs.
Quote from: r0tor on August 20, 2023, 11:30:38 AMThat math doesn't add up.
Also is that 13 cents per KWh all in or just generation cost? My guess is that's generation and then you have another 6-8 cents for distribution.
You may be right about that. Not sure.
According to fueleconomy.gov, personalized to our driving habits, it was costing us $4850 in annual fuel costs to drive the Infiniti QX60 and now will cost $1250 in annual "fueling" costs to drive the Kia EV6.
Channeling Robert Llewelyn...
The Prius has a reciprocating ICE engine thumping away under the hood, spewing 19lb of CO2 every 56 miles. It also requires an elaborate drilling, refining, bulk transportation, and retail distribution system which spews out even more CO2. And then, when you finally put that gallon into the tank, most of it is wasted in heat energy.
Hybrids & PHEVs are stopgaps that the oil companies & mainstream automakers would like to become permanent because they they can leverage their 120 years of drilling experience and then manufacturing vehicles with reciprocating engines thumping away under the hood.
My parents' PUD delivers hydro power for 12 cents a gallon.
The Niro's battery is 9kWh and she hasn't bought any gas for three months. She'll probably end up buying maybe 50 gallons over the course of a year. Given how much she drives from the boonies that is a miniscule amount of gas.
PHEVs can be charged easily with L1 chargers which are cheap (or included with purchase) and plug into garage GFCI sockets which are plentiful.
And yeah, she gets the benefits of EV quietness while it's running on batteries. It's not fast though, and it does run through a stepped transmission which is an interesting combination of traits.
Quote from: Morris Minor on August 20, 2023, 12:40:43 PMChanneling Robert Llewelyn...
The Prius has a reciprocating ICE engine thumping away under the hood, spewing 19lb of CO2 every 56 miles. It also requires an elaborate drilling, refining, bulk transportation, and retail distribution system which spews out even more CO2. And then, when you finally put that gallon into the tank, most of it is wasted in heat energy.
Hybrids & PHEVs are stopgaps that the oil companies & mainstream automakers would like to become permanent because they they can leverage their 120 years of drilling experience and then manufacturing vehicles with reciprocating engines thumping away under the hood.
If the EV drivetrain keeps the ICE inert most of the time then there is no carbon cost, only manufacturing cost. This is where I think there is room for replacing the ICE with simple, small, low powered genset units that are mechanically decoupled from the drivetrain. It would run in a steady unstressed state every so often to replenish the battery and then turn off. And the unit could be a self contained module, save for the fuel tank, eliminating the rats nest of fluids and couplings and transmissions etc necessitated by standard car engines. Ideally it never turns on at all; it's provisional power for the very rare road trip.
People need power in short bursts, not sustained runs. Even with a wimpy generator the high output of the battery buffer still makes it possible.
Hmm, back of the napkin math shows around 15-20kW for the generator to do 60mph at 4kWh/mi.
20kW generators are pretty big.
Quote from: Laconian on August 20, 2023, 01:08:13 PMHmm, back of the napkin math shows around 15-20kW for the generator to do 60mph at 4kWh/mi.
20kW generators are pretty big.
You can tow one on a trailer
Quote from: Laconian on August 20, 2023, 12:53:49 PMIf the EV drivetrain keeps the ICE inert most of the time then there is no carbon cost, only manufacturing cost. This is where I think there is room for replacing the ICE with simple, small, low powered genset units that are mechanically decoupled from the drivetrain. It would run in a steady unstressed state every so often to replenish the battery and then turn off. And the unit could be a self contained module, save for the fuel tank, eliminating the rats nest of fluids and couplings and transmissions etc necessitated by standard car engines. Ideally it never turns on at all; it's provisional power for the very rare road trip.
People need power in short bursts, not sustained runs. Even with a wimpy generator the high output of the battery buffer still makes it possible.
Why would you want it completely decoupled? You need a much bigger electric motor and battery if you totally decouple.
I think Honda's hybrid system is interesting. It mostly does what you say: just creates electricity for the electric motor. But it can power the wheels directly, but it has no transmission (it's a single ratio). It's basically only used at highway speeds.
Quote from: Morris Minor on August 20, 2023, 12:40:43 PMChanneling Robert Llewelyn...
The Prius has a reciprocating ICE engine thumping away under the hood, spewing 19lb of CO2 every 56 miles. It also requires an elaborate drilling, refining, bulk transportation, and retail distribution system which spews out even more CO2. And then, when you finally put that gallon into the tank, most of it is wasted in heat energy.
Hybrids & PHEVs are stopgaps that the oil companies & mainstream automakers would like to become permanent because they they can leverage their 120 years of drilling experience and then manufacturing vehicles with reciprocating engines thumping away under the hood.
Except that drilling, refining, ect powers most EVs
So the Niro gets 31 miles miles from an 11 KWh battery. So say 20 cent power and that's $2.20 for that first 31 miles.
A Prius would need .55 gallons to go that far. So operating cost wise it's a tie at $4.00 per gallon gas for that first 31 miles and then the Prius is cheaper after that.
11 Priii can be made for 1 Niro battery wise.
I read a breakdown in math for a Rav4: they concluded the PHEV is the least economical, followed by ICE and the regular hybrid makes most sense money-wise.
I will say- the freedom from gassing up all the time is pretty amazing. We're at a quarter tank on Mav and still have 100+ miles left.
Our power is 8-12 cents here :huh:
Toyota claims PHEV and hybrids are better and they can make more of them than full EVs, but they don't make more of them. There's seemingly so much demand for them and Toyota constantly underproduces.
The big pay day for EVs is basically over. They are now selling at discounts and sitting for significant time on dealer lots. The pricing war is on with Tesla leading the way.
I actually have to wonder if 1/2 of the current EV craze with OEMs was their miscalculated assumption margins would remain high on EVs and nobody was going to go cut throat.
I can't fault Toyota for their strategy, not to mention their home market is in no way shape or form primed for an EV environment.
Quote from: r0tor on August 20, 2023, 04:43:23 PMThe big pay day for EVs is basically over. They are now selling at discounts and sitting for significant time on dealer lots. The pricing war is on with Tesla leading the way.
I actually have to wonder if 1/2 of the current EV craze with OEMs was their miscalculated assumption margins would remain high on EVs and nobody was going to go cut throat.
I can't fault Toyota for their strategy, not to mention their home market is in no way shape or form primed for an EV environment.
OEMs are ill-equipped to build EVs.
BTW, the current price premium of PHEVs is outrageous and will probably come down. Growing a battery pack from 1-8kWh @ $151/kWh should only add ~$1057 to the cost (plus some extra for packaging etc.)
Quote from: MrH on August 20, 2023, 02:06:54 PMWhy would you want it completely decoupled? You need a much bigger electric motor and battery if you totally decouple.
I think Honda's hybrid system is interesting. It mostly does what you say: just creates electricity for the electric motor. But it can power the wheels directly, but it has no transmission (it's a single ratio). It's basically only used at highway speeds.
Many systems in industry decouple the ICE from the drive train, such as modern diesel/electric locomotives, as the ICE is most efficient in a relatively narrow RPM band.
The Volt worked in the same way.
Quote from: Laconian on August 20, 2023, 07:59:04 PMBTW, the current price premium of PHEVs is outrageous and will probably come down. Growing a battery pack from 1-8kWh @ $151/kWh should only add ~$1057 to the cost (plus some extra for packaging etc.)
But they seem expensive to me - battery + ICE + EV drive train + charging HW.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 21, 2023, 12:23:42 PMBut they seem expensive to me - battery + ICE + EV drive train + charging HW.
Lots of complexity & weight but they do provide resilience... good for those who want something to fall back on if they venture far afield and into the dangerous territory of our charging infrastructure... in all its glorious infancy.
For most people, with standard local driving patterns, they're a bit like having a backup generator for the house. You barely ever use it, and it's a pain to have to keep it maintained... but when you DO need it you really, really need it.
Like a fire extinguisher.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 21, 2023, 12:23:42 PMBut they seem expensive to me - battery + ICE + EV drive train + charging HW.
Yeah but Plugin Hybrid shouldn't be THAT much more than Hybrid. Just need bigger battery and the charging stuff. But they're loads and loads more.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 21, 2023, 03:18:09 PMYeah but Plugin Hybrid shouldn't be THAT much more than Hybrid. Just need bigger battery and the charging stuff. But they're loads and loads more.
Well once you add more battery, you need to add more power because of substantially more weight, and when putting in bigger motors you need even more battery....
I'd just buy a pure EV. For those worried about the edge cases of venturing beyond the home-destination-back-home range of their EVs, I'd say not to worry, but it makes more sense to hold onto your gasser. The charging infrastructure will take care of itself as it coalesces to something that's good.
... or the 70% of the population that is opposed to EVs remain that way, OEMs chase sales, and the charging infrastructure died on the vine
Quote from: Morris Minor on August 23, 2023, 11:19:43 AMI'd just buy a pure EV. For those worried about the edge cases of venturing beyond the home-destination-back-home range of their EVs, I'd say not to worry, but it makes more sense to hold onto your gasser. The charging infrastructure will take care of itself as it coalesces to something that's good.
Doesn't appear to be either economically or environmentally efficient.
Quote from: r0tor on August 23, 2023, 11:34:40 AM... or the 70% of the population that is opposed to EVs remain that way, OEMs chase sales, and the charging infrastructure died on the vine
OEMs need to learn how to make EVs profitably at prices people can afford. But so far they have not. That's why they push PHEVs: all those transmission flushes to be sold, all those UAW pension commitments to be met.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/20/cars/electric-cars-sales-gas-cars-dg/index.html
Good article indicating projected BEV and PHEV sales as a percentage of all new cars in the U.S. will max out at < 30% by 2050 and that's with oil hitting $190/barrel. More likely maxing out at 17 to 19%. Barriers are high cost of entry and lack of public charging.
These projections are by the EIA (US energy information administration) which is the statistical agency of the Dept of Energy.
Quote from: veeman on August 24, 2023, 10:37:19 PMhttps://www.cnn.com/2023/08/20/cars/electric-cars-sales-gas-cars-dg/index.html
Good article indicating projected BEV and PHEV sales as a percentage of all new cars in the U.S. will max out at < 30% by 2050 and that's with oil hitting $190/barrel. More likely maxing out at 17 to 19%. Barriers are high cost of entry and lack of public charging.
These projections are by the EIA (US energy information administration) which is the statistical agency of the Dept of Energy.
That means a pretty good pay day for the few manufacturers not going all in on BEVs
I drove my mom's Niro PHEV. The ride, steering, noise levels and handling are all big improvements over the previous Prius. EV only acceleration is tepid but enough to make her happy. The view out is great and the interior is incredibly spacious. A great car.
Quote from: r0tor on August 20, 2023, 03:05:35 PMExcept that drilling, refining, ect powers most EVs
Not as true now as it was 5 years ago, and even less true in the near future. Now that we are going to be getting our Lithium from geothermal energy in the Salton Sea and not using any Cobalt, and the batteries are 95% recyclable (so in a couple decades when there are enough end of life EVs out there, a good 40% of all battery production will be from recycled materials) this is a moot point.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/04/the-salton-sea-could-produce-the-worlds-greenest-lithium.html
Then there's the electricity used in oil refinement that doesn't have to be used anymore.
(https://www.reuters.com/resizer/i_x2cp-GrZsNHqbL7RnSphXq0qQ=/1866x2333/smart/filters:quality(80)/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/BVMRT5TAUZL3PAHJT4KTNCJDRQ.jpg)
Each level on this stack captures a different part of the mix that is crude oil. This process requires a lot of energy, and I do mean a lot, to separate out the various components from crude oil.
Now, much of the energy required to do this comes from burning the hydrocarbons produced in the refinery itself (Elon Musk famously claimed it takes 5 kilowatt hours of electricity to refine one gallon of gasoline, but that's actually not true).
It does, however, take a lot of electricity nonetheless—in 2001, the last year for which I can find data, the US petroleum refining industry consumed about 47 TWh(!) of electricity.
If we're gonna get all worried about people plugging in their cars—which is silly, Facebook and Google use way more electricity—we gotta account for the electricity that's not being used to refine gasoline any more.
Feeling a bit of enabler guilt now; Laconian and I rent a virtual server on hardware in a data somewhere to keep the SPIN running. Every rage post spikes CPU cycles & melts a piece of a glacier somewhere.
I just did the math and each :rage: :banghead: :lockedup: :heated: = 2.8 newly homeless polar bears.
Quote from: ChrisV on September 19, 2023, 02:10:20 PMNot as true now as it was 5 years ago, and even less true in the near future.
Remember, half the planet is near Third World - that's ~4,000,000,000 souls. Their positions will ONLY be improved via the burning of fossil fuels, so, the world over, fossil fuel usage will continue to escalate for centuries and yes, most EVs in most places will continue to be mostly be charged by fossil fuels.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 19, 2023, 02:43:59 PMFeeling a bit of enabler guilt now; Laconian and I rent a virtual server on hardware in a data somewhere to keep the SPIN running. Every rage post spikes CPU cycles & melts a piece of a glacier somewhere.
I just did the math and each :rage: :banghead: :lockedup: :heated: = 2.8 newly homeless polar bears.
:lol:
Quote from: Morris Minor on August 23, 2023, 12:07:29 PMOEMs need to learn how to make EVs profitably at prices people can afford. But so far they have not. That's why they push PHEVs: all those transmission flushes to be sold, all those UAW pension commitments to be met.
- General Motors is changing its product lineup strategy to include plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, CEO Mary Barra told investors Tuesday.
- Barra did not disclose specific details of the plans other than that plug-in hybrids will be rolled out on select vehicles in North America to assist in meeting more stringent federal fuel economy regulations.
- GM led the way in plug-in electric vehicles with the Chevrolet Volt during the 2010s. The company discontinued the vehicle in early 2019, citing demand and cost concerns.
More...
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/30/gm-to-release-plug-in-hybrid-vehicles-backtracking-on-product-plans.html
Translation... Coming to dealers near you - some rushed and not very well engineered or tested GM PHEVs
GM isn't really at the vanguard of anything, is it?
Quote from: Laconian on January 30, 2024, 03:08:52 PMGM isn't really at the vanguard of anything, is it?
Make great Volt. Make similar named car named Bolt, confuse all normal consumers. Kill both. Bring back Bolt. Now bring back Volt.
Quote from: Laconian on January 30, 2024, 03:08:52 PMGM isn't really at the vanguard of anything, is it?
It just seems stultified to me.
Hmmmm. Is she playing 4th dimensional chess maybe? Did she read the tea leaves back then - that WtP buy Tesla and not EVs?
Quote from: r0tor on January 30, 2024, 02:48:10 PMTranslation... Coming to dealers near you - some rushed and not very well engineered or tested GM PHEVs
And just enough to meet the fuel economy numbers and no more. Regardless of how well it sells. If it doesn't sell well, FLEETS!!!
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 30, 2024, 04:10:39 PMMake great Volt. Make similar named car named Bolt, confuse all normal consumers. Kill both. Bring back Bolt. Now bring back Volt.
What a business model!!!! :mask:
Quote from: r0tor on January 30, 2024, 02:48:10 PMTranslation... Coming to dealers near you - some rushed and not very well engineered or tested GM PHEVs
I have had 4 coworkers that have bought Volts. All have loved them. 1 still has hers and another is looking at possibly getting another one if he can find a 2nd gen in good condition.
Former co-worker had one and LOVED IT except for the fact their dealership couldn't figure out an overheating issue. Probably a plugged tube somewhere, but he sold it (ended up scoring a super sweet deal on a used Tesla).
Only criticism I've found when looking at Volts is the "small backseat".
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on January 31, 2024, 11:14:23 AMFormer co-worker had one and LOVED IT except for the fact their dealership couldn't figure out an overheating issue. Probably a plugged tube somewhere, but he sold it (ended up scoring a super sweet deal on a used Tesla).
Only criticism I've found when looking at Volts is the "small backseat".
The small backseat is actually a big reason we ended up getting a Bolt. For the 1-2 times a year we have my brother in law or someone else tall in the back seat...
No regrets though, the reliability of pure EV is probably better than PHEV. Much simpler.
Yeah, the Volt was super cramped. Really cool tech though. It was probably the best car GM has made in a long time. I'm pretty sure they were losing their ass on each one.
Quote from: MrH on January 31, 2024, 01:14:56 PMYeah, the Volt was super cramped. Really cool tech though. It was probably the best car GM has made in a long time. I'm pretty sure they were losing their ass on each one.
According to Bob Lutz, the Volt, at least by the time the 2nd gen came out, was making about as much money as a Cruze, as the costs to build were about the same.
I liked my '13, but after getting the Bolt in 2020, I only put about 300 miles on it in a year. the Bolt was cheaper to operate and actually more fun to drive.
(https://www.chrisv-design.com/images/Voltdone005.jpg)
But as the insurance companies have found out, hybrids are far more likely to catch fire than gas cars, which are far more likely to catch fire than EVs:
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/
"Hybrid-powered cars were involved in about 3,475 fires per every 100,000 sold. Gasoline-powered cars, about 1,530. Electric vehicles (EVs) saw just 25 fires per 100,000 sold."
Quote from: ChrisV on February 07, 2024, 08:33:12 AMas the costs to build were about the same.
What. The volt had batteries, a motor, and an engine. The Cruze had an engine.
I think we are eventually going to look at a Grand Cherokee PHEV.
The only appeal to me at this point is it's not school bus slow like the V6 and theoretically might be the cheapest way to get the 4x4 system with a transfer case.
The reliability scares the hell out of me. The added weight effects the ride. The benefit of 25 miles of electric range for 15kWh seems minimal - that probably saves $1 in operating costs per day. I wish they just had a normal HEV option.
Quote from: r0tor on February 07, 2024, 10:51:52 AMI think we are eventually going to look at a Grand Cherokee PHEV.
The only appeal to me at this point is it's not school bus slow like the V6 and theoretically might be the cheapest way to get the 4x4 system with a transfer case.
The reliability scares the hell out of me. The added weight effects the ride. The benefit of 25 miles of electric range for 15kWh seems minimal - that probably saves $1 in operating costs per day. I wish they just had a normal HEV option.
Sounds like you're not impressed, so why is it a contender? The Wrangler 4xE isn't very reliable.
My neighbor is a huge fan of his hybrid Toyota Highlander.
Quote from: Laconian on February 07, 2024, 12:07:55 PMSounds like you're not impressed, so why is it a contender? The Wrangler 4xE isn't very reliable.
My neighbor is a huge fan of his hybrid Toyota Highlander.
It's a contender based off of my wife loving our current one and it hits the physical size sweet spot for us between storage for traveling and size for her to negotiate.
I seriously doubt she will routinely plug it in. She would probably just prefer the V6 again - but I'm less than thrilled with the performance and now you need to get an upper trim level to get a 2 speed transfer case in the V6... without the transfer case it's just another AWD crossover and I would rather have a few other options from that list. It is sort of our vehicle designated for snowpacslypes and other doomsday mountainy crap so some ruggedness it welcome.
Quote from: Rich on February 07, 2024, 08:55:07 AMWhat. The volt had batteries, a motor, and an engine. The Cruze had an engine.
And a transmission and a fuel system. Lut'z point was that outside of the batteries, the car cost the same as a Cruze to make, so with the batteries costing about $16k in 2010, and the rest of the car costing about $15k, the car itself was profitable per unit at the selling price they had then. By the time the 2nd gen came out, the battery only accounted for $4800 of the cost of the car. since the Cruze was profitable at a selling price of $17k, you know that the cost of the car outside the battery couldn't cost more than the Cruze to make (especially since they were effectively the same platform). So the calculation is that based on the hard costs of the car, it was making a profit at it's then selling price of $30k.
The problem is most of the article on the profitability of the Volt were done in late 2011, when Chevy had only sold 6-10k examples and the pundits were amortizing the entire cost of the factory, R&D, tooling, etc. over that short run of cars to come up with a per-car loss of like $40k, which is absurd. Amortization doesn't work that way. The big costs like R&D and the factory have to be amortized out over the entire run of cars made at that factory and use that research.
https://robertscribbler.wordpress.com/2012/10/02/bob-lutz-chevy-volt-on-verge-of-profitability/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/boblutz/2012/09/10/the-real-story-on-gms-volt-costs/?sh=77c95551287d
Hmmm... Between my employee pricing and lease incentives - I can get a $65k Grand Cherokee for $50k
...cheaper than a comparable V6 version...