Well this looks decent. (CCS charging for now.)
Edit: oh okay - I realized it shares its platform with the Lyriq & Blazer EV & will be built at the same factory in Mexico.
https://automobiles.honda.com/future-cars/prologue
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 28, 2023, 11:52:26 AMWell this looks decent. (CCS charging for now.)
Edit: oh okay - I realized it shares its platform with the Lyriq & Blazer EV & will be built at the same factory in Mexico.
https://automobiles.honda.com/future-cars/prologue
ugh the link to the page looks like they're trying too hard to be hip...
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 28, 2023, 11:52:26 AMWell this looks decent. (CCS charging for now.)
Edit: oh okay - I realized it shares its platform with the Lyriq & Blazer EV & will be built at the same factory in Mexico.
Sigh. It's frustrating to witness Toyota and Honda resort to badge engineering instead of actual engineering when it comes to their EV offerings. I wonder what Toyota would be capable of if they weren't blowing their budget futzing around in Gray Hydrogen R&D-land.
The styling and interior look good though.
Honda and Toyota know that widespread EV adoption is still very much up in the air, and that WtP buy Tesla, not EVs. This disastrous UAW strike; maybe was even foretold or known; is another reason to go weak on EVs. Who the hell knows where it's going to go at this point.
Quote from: Laconian on September 29, 2023, 08:13:10 PMSigh. It's frustrating to witness Toyota and Honda resort to badge engineering instead of actual engineering when it comes to their EV offerings. I wonder what Toyota would be capable of if they weren't blowing their budget futzing around in Gray Hydrogen R&D-land.
The styling and interior look good though.
I always buy American :neverforget: (buys Blazer EV.)
Cant beat Japanese engineering 🇯🇵 (buys Prologue)
Quote from: Laconian on September 29, 2023, 08:13:10 PMSigh. It's frustrating to witness Toyota and Honda resort to badge engineering instead of actual engineering when it comes to their EV offerings. I wonder what Toyota would be capable of if they weren't blowing their budget futzing around in Gray Hydrogen R&D-land.
The styling and interior look good though.
Toyota has a good shot at being the first with solid state batteries in a couple years which will make everything made today look pathetic while also still keeping a viable ICE program alive in case EVs dont go as predicted... Not seeing a downside to their plan.
keep in mind that other than battery tech progression, there is very little in ways of substantial powertrain improvements in EVs. You are literally starting out of the box with a powertrain package with 90%+ efficiency and not a lot of things to break. Interiors are interiors. Chassis are very basic. Innovation will be minimal.
I'm curious if buying the Honda version is better or worse than the Chevy it's based on.
Quote from: r0tor on September 30, 2023, 07:59:59 AMToyota has a good shot at being the first with solid state batteries in a couple years which will make everything made today look pathetic while also still keeping a viable ICE program alive in case EVs dont go as predicted... Not seeing a downside to their plan.
keep in mind that other than battery tech progression, there is very little in ways of substantial powertrain improvements in EVs. You are literally starting out of the box with a powertrain package with 90%+ efficiency and not a lot of things to break. Interiors are interiors. Chassis are very basic. Innovation will be minimal.
Toyota slept instead of developing compelling EVs and having them available now. You cannot walk into a Toyota showroom today and buy a BEV that isn't mediocre.
"I can sell you this Camry now but we're gonna have solid state real soon" does not stop EV buyers walking out of the showroom.
They are making perfect the enemy of the good.
I thought it was pretty well established that the Japanese government promoted hydrogen effort was gobbling all the R&D?
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 30, 2023, 02:49:19 PMToyota slept instead of developing compelling EVs and having them available now. You cannot walk into a Toyota showroom today and buy a BEV that isn't mediocre.
"I can sell you this Camry now but we're gonna have solid state real soon" does not stop EV buyers walking out of the showroom.
They are making perfect the enemy of the good.
So they still make things that appeal to the 70th percentile buyer? Tragic.
Quote from: Laconian on September 30, 2023, 03:25:14 PMI thought it was pretty well established that the Japanese government promoted hydrogen effort was gobbling all the R&D?
Fuel cell still has an EV drivetrain
Quote from: r0tor on September 30, 2023, 09:05:35 PMFuel cell still has an EV drivetrain
That's true... however I would assume the drivetrain designs would be tuned to a different set of constraints and compromises.
Quote from: r0tor on September 30, 2023, 09:04:34 PMSo they still make things that appeal to the 70th percentile buyer? Tragic.
Yes. By being asleep and lazy, they have already ceded 30% of the market (and growing) to competitors.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 01, 2023, 06:49:14 AMYes. By being asleep and lazy, they have already ceded 30% of the market (and growing) to competitors.
EVs are sitting on lots getting more and more discounts with a pricing war raging. That is not the sign of a growing market.
So Honda/Toyota enter the BEV marketplace. What are they going to do to differentiate themselves? Produce yet another lifted car or lowered SUV thing thanks to a generic skateboard chassis that can fit 250\300 miles of range? Lets face it, there is really nothing this point that sets EVs apart except Tesla, which is entirely about their charging system and not even the car. There is no making engines sportier or more refined. No tuning of exhausts or transmissions. No unique engine configurations. You put your box on a skateboard and call it a day. Nobody is falling behind in EV development at the moment.
Maybe at least next gen battery tech will allow for different packaging and some sort of creativity.
EVs are only sitting on lots when they are marked up by dealers or the MSRP is too expensive in the first place compared to competitors. This year is a changing market since production is catching up to demand again, so lots are filling up.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 01, 2023, 09:41:27 AMEVs are only sitting on lots when they are marked up by dealers or the MSRP is too expensive in the first place compared to competitors. This year is a changing market since production is catching up to demand again, so lots are filling up.
Abuse at the hands of con-artist dealers, too pricy, not compelling, and high pucker factors about whether four out of five of a site's charging stations will be fucked when you show up with 7% remaining.
I wonder if this Honda will have CarPlay? Since apparently the Chevys won't. Could be a big advantage for it
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 01, 2023, 12:47:41 PMI wonder if this Honda will have CarPlay? Since apparently the Chevys won't. Could be a big advantage for it
From the StraightPipes YouTube review - it does
Quote from: r0tor on October 01, 2023, 07:47:18 AMEVs are sitting on lots getting more and more discounts with a pricing war raging. That is not the sign of a growing market.
New cars in general are having that issue, as we come out of the major markup issues of the Covid years. There were stupid ADMs on most cars and getting something at MSRP was considered a deal. Now there's cash on the hood of a lot of the cars on the market. The dealer I got my Bolt from was putting a $5k ADM on the cars on the lot and still selling them pretty rapidly (I ordered mine so no ADM). They've now dropped the markup and are still selling them as fast as they get them. There is a 6 day supply of Bolts out there right now and even though it's being discontinued, the demand was high enough to extend the production dates AND now bring it back in '25.
The Lightning production is ramped up, so that now instead of $100k markups, they are selling at MSRP. There is a 97 day supply of them as production increased, but there is a 117 day supply of gas F150s, so it's not an EV thing. https://caredge.com/guides/ford-inventory-surplus-2023
Yeah, Mavericks are still mostly custom order but they can be bought at MSRP on lots in a few places..
They've paused production on the F150 Lightnings. The gas versions aren't selling enough to cover the losses they take on the electric versions.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 03, 2023, 02:14:22 PMThey've paused production on the F150 Lightnings. The gas versions aren't selling enough to cover the losses they take on the electric versions.
:wtf:
That's not true. Where do you come up with this stuff?
Quote from: ChrisV on October 03, 2023, 08:17:54 AMNew cars in general are having that issue, as we come out of the major markup issues of the Covid years. There were stupid ADMs on most cars and getting something at MSRP was considered a deal. Now there's cash on the hood of a lot of the cars on the market. The dealer I got my Bolt from was putting a $5k ADM on the cars on the lot and still selling them pretty rapidly (I ordered mine so no ADM). They've now dropped the markup and are still selling them as fast as they get them. There is a 6 day supply of Bolts out there right now and even though it's being discontinued, the demand was high enough to extend the production dates AND now bring it back in '25.
The Lightning production is ramped up, so that now instead of $100k markups, they are selling at MSRP. There is a 97 day supply of them as production increased, but there is a 117 day supply of gas F150s, so it's not an EV thing. https://caredge.com/guides/ford-inventory-surplus-2023
I think you forgot the little fact Ford had to cut the MSRP by $10k to get sales to pick up... again pointing towards the fact it's not longer a hot early adopter type market
Quote from: MrH on October 03, 2023, 02:16:56 PM:wtf:
That's not true. Where do you come up with this stuff?
Agreed. Retracted.
Ford are saying orders to dealers canceled mainly due to the '23 -'24 model year change. So dealers will receive 2024 models one-for-one. And apparently there's a new Flash version which has some new twiddly bits
Quote from: r0tor on October 03, 2023, 02:54:13 PMI think you forgot the little fact Ford had to cut the MSRP by $10k to get sales to pick up... again pointing towards the fact it's not longer a hot early adopter type market
Sales were off because dealers were adding HUGE markups (up to $100k on them). They increased production to stop that crap.
(https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/ford-f-150-lightning-markup-florida-819x1024.jpeg)
Of COURSE sales will be slow when dealers do that...
Quote from: ChrisV on October 04, 2023, 06:48:12 AMSales were off because dealers were adding HUGE markups (up to $100k on them). They increased production to stop that crap.
(https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/ford-f-150-lightning-markup-florida-819x1024.jpeg)
Of COURSE sales will be slow when dealers do that...
They lowered the MSRP by $10k to increase sales. The reality is they are about to double or triple manufacturing capability on a product line that already had 3 months of inventory. Sales need to triple or they will be massively underwater.
I don't really care what a couple asshole dealers tried to get away with... pretty much all brands have examples of that idiocracy
I think many EVs outside of Teslas are sitting on lots because many of them are being compared with the Tesla Model Y and Tesla has the huge advantages of:
1. No intermediary dealership model. The price listed on the website is the price you pay. Can buy one on your smart phone with a couple of clicks.
2. Potential $7500 federal tax credit. The Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq5 for example do not. The Ford Mustang Mach-E get's half of it ($3750).
3. Only brand with a competent public fast charging interface. Only brand that can be driven on long distance trips on most routes within the continental U.S. It's still a pain in the ass but at least it's doable.
4. Most advanced whiz bang electronics. Everything from over-the-air software updates to sentry mode.
5. Other cool stuff. My brother in law for example bought Tesla auto insurance using the Tesla APP on his phone.
Even if the competitors'vehicles are better vehicles from a build quality view point, they're going to be a hard sale. I'm glad I chose the Kia EV6 over the Model Y but I'm in the minority.
Quote from: ChrisV on October 04, 2023, 06:48:12 AMSales were off because dealers were adding HUGE markups (up to $100k on them). They increased production to stop that crap.
Of COURSE sales will be slow when dealers do that...
:confused:
There's a serious demand issue for EVs. Are you not willing to concede that?
It's only going to get worse too. Ford was supposed to be at 150k/yr capacity for making Lightnings. They're going to have to continue cutting price to have any chance of selling that many.
Quote from: MrH on October 04, 2023, 09:25:51 AM:confused:
There's a serious demand issue for EVs. Are you not willing to concede that?
It's only going to get worse too. Ford was supposed to be at 150k/yr capacity for making Lightnings. They're going to have to continue cutting price to have any chance of selling that many.
The demand issues are typically when the automaker promises a $40k vehicle and then only releases the $70k model.
And then when Tesla cuts their prices, everyone else has to follow or give up the sale to Tesla.
Quote from: veeman on October 04, 2023, 08:13:29 AMI think many EVs outside of Teslas are sitting on lots because many of them are being compared with the Tesla Model Y and Tesla has the huge advantages of:
1. No intermediary dealership model. The price listed on the website is the price you pay. Can buy one on your smart phone with a couple of clicks.
2. Potential $7500 federal tax credit. The Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq5 for example do not. The Ford Mustang Mach-E get's half of it ($3750).
3. Only brand with a competent public fast charging interface. Only brand that can be driven on long distance trips on most routes within the continental U.S. It's still a pain in the ass but at least it's doable.
4. Most advanced whiz bang electronics. Everything from over-the-air software updates to sentry mode.
5. Other cool stuff. My brother in law for example bought Tesla auto insurance using the Tesla APP on his phone.
Even if the competitors'vehicles are better vehicles from a build quality view point, they're going to be a hard sale. I'm glad I chose the Kia EV6 over the Model Y but I'm in the minority.
Love it or hate it, it's an ecosystem that encompasses more than the vehicle itself. Owners seem to love it.
Excluding dealers, and their abuse of customers, is a decent selling point.
Let's not pretend Tesla doesn't abuse their customers.
I've heard enough about the overall woeful state of repair part availability from people I know to make me think that it's another case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
Personally I believe quite strongly that vertical integration is a recipe for collusion against customers.
Quote from: Laconian on October 04, 2023, 10:19:11 AMI've heard enough about the overall woeful state of repair part availability from people I know to make me think that it's another case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
Personally I believe quite strongly that vertical integration is a recipe for collusion against customers.
Agreed. There are tons and tons of terrible dealerships, but there's also a solution to it to some degree. Don't use them! There are probably 20+ Ford dealerships within 50 miles of me. Tesla abuses the shit out of NDAs and arbitration. There's no recourse for Tesla screwing you.
Quote from: MrH on October 04, 2023, 10:28:33 AMAgreed. There are tons and tons of terrible dealerships, but there's also a solution to it to some degree. Don't use them! There are probably 20+ Ford dealerships within 50 miles of me. Tesla abuses the shit out of NDAs and arbitration. There's no recourse for Tesla screwing you.
There isn't, which is why Tesla can get away with forcing customers into signing NDAs when they bring their cars in for intensive repairs (e.g. control arms falling off.) Isn't that so incredibly fishy? How do they get away with it?!
Wait, you have to sign an NDA to have Tesla work on your Tesla? :wtf:
Quote from: giant_mtb on October 04, 2023, 11:01:19 AMWait, you have to sign an NDA to have Tesla work on your Tesla? :wtf:
It might not be the case anymore, but when a lot of Model Ses were suffering catastrophic suspension failures Tesla would characterize the repair as a "goodwill" repair and not a budgeted warranty repair, which helped pad the financials. Customers had to sign an NDA to qualify for the repair.
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-accused-of-ordering-owners-not-to-talk-about-thei-1781634791
I was under the impression that they still demanded NDAs, but heat from NHTSA kiboshed that.
However, more recently (2021?) they were accused of forcing NDAs onto FSD customers.. err, "testers"... which wasn't a popular move with NHTSA, either.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 03, 2023, 03:29:40 PMAgreed. Retracted.
Ford are saying orders to dealers canceled mainly due to the '23 -'24 model year change. So dealers will receive 2024 models one-for-one. And apparently there's a new Flash version which has some new twiddly bits
Wait. Not "mainly." I knew I hadn't been dreaming.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2023/10/02/2023-ford-lightning-orders-canceled-quality/71032938007/
Ford went with NACS and now they have sub-10 micron envy. Wannabe Tesla :lol:
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 04, 2023, 11:22:30 AMWait. Not "mainly." I knew I hadn't been dreaming.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2023/10/02/2023-ford-lightning-orders-canceled-quality/71032938007/
You said they stopped production because they were losing too much money on them. That's not true at all?
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 04, 2023, 09:59:24 AMExcluding dealers, and their abuse of customers, is a decent selling point.
100%
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 04, 2023, 09:59:24 AMLove it or hate it, it's an ecosystem that encompasses more than the vehicle itself. Owners seem to love it.
Excluding dealers, and their abuse of customers, is a decent selling point.
Even though Tesla changes it's price every few months due to demand/etc much like traditional dealers, the problem wasn't in dealers changing prices. The price can always change on any product. The huge difference is price transparency. That's what allows proper comparison shopping.
If I want to find out how much a Model 3 costs today, all I have to do is pull up the Tesla website, configure it how I want, and see what it spits out. If I like that price, I hit "buy" and that's my price. Sure, it could go up or down by $5,000 tomorrow, but I'm not getting any other price today.
Under the dealer model, I can go through the manufacturer website to get MSRP, but I then have to search around on a bunch of forums or reddit to get a sense (only a sense) of how much people are ACTUALLY paying. Then, I have to call up a bunch of dealerships and ask for a price, half of which will insist that I show up in person before they will tell me the price. If I show up to those dealers, it may take hours before I know how much the car costs. Even if I find a dealer quote I like on the phone, I then usually have to show up in person to buy the car, at which time they may tell me that the price is only good if I also get the trucoat or if I'm a disabled military veteran recent college grad.
I was so beaten down buying the Mazda that I did not notice the "door protection" on the sticker. Noticed it a couple of days later then realized they'd only put it on the edge of the passenger door.
Towards the end the sales guy had to take us through installing & configuring the Mazda app on our phones. The app is garbage. We begged him to stop and assured him we'd get it done so the check boxes on his script could all be marked off.
The car has never been back to the dealer since. Once bitten, twice shy. Why be like an enabling battered wife?
Quote from: ChrisV on October 05, 2023, 06:48:39 AMEven though Tesla changes it's price every few months due to demand/etc much like traditional dealers, the problem wasn't in dealers changing prices. The price can always change on any product. The huge difference is price transparency. That's what allows proper comparison shopping.
If I want to find out how much a Model 3 costs today, all I have to do is pull up the Tesla website, configure it how I want, and see what it spits out. If I like that price, I hit "buy" and that's my price. Sure, it could go up or down by $5,000 tomorrow, but I'm not getting any other price today.
Under the dealer model, I can go through the manufacturer website to get MSRP, but I then have to search around on a bunch of forums or reddit to get a sense (only a sense) of how much people are ACTUALLY paying. Then, I have to call up a bunch of dealerships and ask for a price, half of which will insist that I show up in person before they will tell me the price. If I show up to those dealers, it may take hours before I know how much the car costs. Even if I find a dealer quote I like on the phone, I then usually have to show up in person to buy the car, at which time they may tell me that the price is only good if I also get the trucoat or if I'm a disabled military veteran recent college grad.
My new tactic is to threaten to order a Tesla in front of their faces if a salesperson starts to play games.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 05, 2023, 10:42:07 AMMy new tactic is to threaten to order a Tesla in front of their faces if a salesperson starts to play games.
:rockon:
I only dealt with shady used car dealerships (we're talking $2k cars 20yrs ago) before Maverick.
The "premier Ford dealer" was no better, and actually more painful.
I take it back- in 2009 I found a 2004 Toyota Sienna online at the "Milton Reuben (Toyota) Used Car Superstore" for a great price ($9k?).
I called them up, went and looked at it, and plunked down $100 check to reserve it. Went back after they finished their maintenance and it was super easy. If all car buying were that painless, it would get a lot more business to the dealers and less to Carvana etc...