6.3 LITER PAGODA: DEAD ON ARRIVAL

[cawimmer430]

Older article but interesting. The Pagoda was the Mercedes SL of the 1960s and early 1970s. It was unheard of to shoehorn a massive engine into a relatively compact car in conservative by-the-book German company in those days, so this was really new territory: the German Muscle Car if you will.


6.3 LITER PAGODA: DEAD ON ARRIVAL

Experimental 6.3 liter Pagoda Mercedes reveals one-off hot rod

If there is a complaint to be leveled at the charming 'Pagoda' series we would have to agree the entire range – 230/250/280 variants – was decidedly feeble in the horsepower department. Producing 150hp when introduced in early 1964 and finishing with 175ish in 1971, the 113 series certainly did not continue the power arch of the 198 series 300SL during its nine year production run. The end of series 1963 300SL produced roughly 235hp in alloy block, sport cam configuration and one would have expected MB to increase power with the 113 series SL introduced at the Geneva Salon March 1964.

It was not to be. The 300SL was destined to stand as an exclusive, low production supercar, an outlier so to speak relative to Mercedes' historical mass production series sequences. The 113 cars were to be mass produced, user friendly grand touring convertibles featuring segment defining construction quality, exceptional road manners and conceived to vastly outperform the outgoing 190SL, the 300SL's cosmetically related little brother. However, rumors have persisted over the years of a bastard 113 SL being constructed with an M100 6.3 liter wedged into its narrow engine bay.




"After nine laps on the north loop, the front tires were worn out; the rear tires needed 16 laps."




No CAD technology for the V8 Pagoda Mule; this factory technical drawing illustrates the packaging issues surrounding the bulky M100 V8 into Waxenberger's brute. The extra weight over front tires exacerbated the standard Pagoda's heaving pitching during hard braking.




Yes, it fit but the massive 6.3 engine left not a millimeter to spare in the Pagoda's engine bay. Plug changes must have been interesting.



Another Waxenberger creation

The story relating Erich Waxenberger's clandistine project of shoehorning a 6.3 liter V8 into an air suspension 300SEL to pique production car director Uhlenhaut's interest in a high performance full size saloon is well known, Waxi's 113 SL project is less so. Thanks to Daimler Media we now know Waxenberger and a small entourage performed high speed road tests with three unusual automobiles at the Nurburgring between July 3 and July 7, 1967. The trio consisted of two 108 sedans fitted with 6.0 liter M100 pilot engines – one of which was uprated to 350hp and each fitted with ZF 5-speeds – and a lone 113 SL fitted with a full 6.3 liter spec engine mated to an automatic gearbox.



The air compressor sitting on left side of the engine was removed for the 113 install. This is what it took to create about 300 HP in 1964 – 6.3 liters housed in a cast iron block fitted with mechanical fuel injection. Injection pump was located in the center of the 'V'.




Grinding around the 'Ring'

The serious business centered on refining the specification of the upcoming production 300SEL 6.3 – sadly never produced with a 5-speed ZF box – but the quick laps were aboard the SL with Waxenberger clocking laps in the 10:40 to 11:00 minute range. (The current production car lap record is 7:12.13 set by a Viper ACR in late 2011.) How I would have loved to ride with Waxenberger that day! Or maybe not. The understeer would have been terrifying and notes from the test confirm this, "After nine laps on the north loop, the front tires were worn out; the rear tires needed 16 laps (to fail)."

Despite stiff shocks, massive negative rear camber and Dunlop 5.50 M 14 racing tires, Waxenberger noted "severe instability when braking for bends." For any Pagoda owner whose driven their car aggressively, this tail happy trail braking oversteer is familiar.The experience of arriving at any bend much faster than a standard Pagoda with an extra 15o lbs sitting in the nose of the car would be...well, terrifying.




V8 Pagoda dead on arrival.

Where is this monster 630SL today? Is it hidden in the bowels of the Mercedes Classic Center under a fitted cover? Unfortunately not. Our media release continues, "Despite this promising(?) debut, the development of the powerful SL was not continued to the production stage." The one-off SL was unceremoniously scrapped. That hasn't stopped a few adventurous MB gearheads from installing 6.3 engines in some Pagodas. We would have to wait for spring 1971 for the arrival of the first production SL fitted with a V8, the 107 series SL and until 1990 for an SL (129 series) to be produced that exceeded the power of the 1963 300SL. If you're intent on owning a V8 Pagoda and aren't capable of building your own, Hatch and Sons' 280SL 3.5 GT might just be the car for you.



Link: https://mercedesheritage.com/mb-heritage/6-3-liter-pagoda-dead-on-arrival?fbclid=IwAR1qgfrrx8kkJNuDEU6dM_L4-hF-YZYz07A58TMv1KZ49QvsNpMgA9aRxSs

[12,000 RPM]

Tires have come a long way. This is basically an SLK55 power to weight wise

[Submariner]

Ha!  Hatch and Sons.  My dad bought a Mercedes from them in the late 90's.  They are the real deal...true automotive enthusiasts.  They love classic Merc's, Ferraris and Land Rovers (Defender 90's/110's being their favorites) with the occasional Porsche thrown in.  I'm pretty sure they size up perspective buyers to determine whether or not they will take care of the car they're looking to buy.  They seemingly always have a 280SE 3.5 cabrio in stock.  Always a perfect frame off resto, always way out of my tax bracket.

[GoCougs]

Older article but interesting. The Pagoda was the Mercedes SL of the 1960s and early 1970s. It was unheard of to shoehorn a massive engine into a relatively compact car in conservative by-the-book German company in those days, so this was really new territory: the German Muscle Car if you will.


6.3 LITER PAGODA: DEAD ON ARRIVAL


This is what it took to create about 300 HP in 1964 – 6.3 liters housed in a cast iron block fitted with mechanical fuel injection. Injection pump was located in the center of the 'V'.

Interesting. Maybe what it took Mercedes-Benz to make 300 hp in 1964, but by then the Corvette was pumping out 365 hp (carb) to 375 hp (FI) in its smaller 5.4L (327 V8)...

[cawimmer430]

Interesting. Maybe what it took Mercedes-Benz to make 300 hp in 1964, but by then the Corvette was pumping out 365 hp (carb) to 375 hp (FI) in its smaller 5.4L (327 V8)...

The standard 6.3 V8 motor actually made less horsepower: 250-horses. In 1960s Germany that was A LOT considering your average citizen drove around in a 30-horsepower Beetle. I think they could easily have gotten more than 300-horses out of it, but they were also considering other factors such as longevity (wear and tear), thermal issues etc.

What was the top speed of those Corvettes? A 300SEL 6.3 W109 sedan could maintain a top speed of about 235/240 km/h without overheating. That engine was built for continuous Autobahn speeding and also relied on torque rather than horsepower.

[cawimmer430]

Ha!  Hatch and Sons.  My dad bought a Mercedes from them in the late 90's.  They are the real deal...true automotive enthusiasts.  They love classic Merc's, Ferraris and Land Rovers (Defender 90's/110's being their favorites) with the occasional Porsche thrown in.  I'm pretty sure they size up perspective buyers to determine whether or not they will take care of the car they're looking to buy.  They seemingly always have a 280SE 3.5 cabrio in stock.  Always a perfect frame off resto, always way out of my tax bracket.

Nice!

Everyone always lusts after the high-end W108/W109s and their coupes/convertibles, but for me a basic 250 or 250SE would suffice. It's about enjoying that timeless design and comfortable cruising. 

[Soup DeVille]

Interesting. Maybe what it took Mercedes-Benz to make 300 hp in 1964, but by then the Corvette was pumping out 365 hp (carb) to 375 hp (FI) in its smaller 5.4L (327 V8)...

The hotter variants of the 300SL were making 240 HP from 3 litres before that, so its hard to make the case they needed to. The 6.3 was bulilt and conceived as a more sedate luxury power plant for a much larger car, so its no surprise its larger and heavier.

[GoCougs]

The standard 6.3 V8 motor actually made less horsepower: 250-horses. In 1960s Germany that was A LOT considering your average citizen drove around in a 30-horsepower Beetle. I think they could easily have gotten more than 300-horses out of it, but they were also considering other factors such as longevity (wear and tear), thermal issues etc.

What was the top speed of those Corvettes? A 300SEL 6.3 W109 sedan could maintain a top speed of about 235/240 km/h without overheating. That engine was built for continuous Autobahn speeding and also relied on torque rather than horsepower.

Top speed of classic Corvettes was highly variable, and primarily dependent on rear gear ratio. 4.10:1 rear gear would top out at 110-120 mph due to engine red line. 2.73:1 rear gear with the top motors (400+ hp) could easily reach 140-150 mph.

Various Chevy motors were designed to do all sorts of things, including racing and commercial duty use, both of which are at least as demanding as high speed cruising (and then, design of the vehicle; esp. cooing systems; becomes a major factor).

~250 hp and the aerodynamics of a brick preclude a top speed anywhere near 240 kph/155 mph for the 300 SEL 6.3. A bit of Googling says tested top speed was 220 kph/135 mph.

All engines rely on horsepower to get a down the road: hp = force (of drag) * velocity.

[Soup DeVille]

The point is that it would be unfair to compare a production Vette with this one-off test mule.

Think more like what would happen if one were to power a Vette with a Cadillac 390- coincidentally a 6.4 liter engine also with roughly 300 HP.

[GoCougs]

Actually, the comparison began between motors (and the Corvette had Chevy's hottest motors) and then evolved into cars, but still based on motors (I think).

[93JC]

What was the top speed of those Corvettes? A 300SEL 6.3 W109 sedan could maintain a top speed of about 235/240 km/h without overheating.

Downhill with a tailwind maybe.

(A Corvette's top speed—gear limited—was about 240 km/h (150 mph).)

[12,000 RPM]

Are those Vette power figures gross or net? Either way SBC >>> so with the right suspension/tires I'm sure the C2 was a much more willing high speed partner.

[Soup DeVille]

Both numbers would have been gross, I believe.

[GoCougs]

Problem with high speed cruising in the mid '60s was tires - bias ply tires were death at sustained high speeds. Perhaps ze Germans were already onto radials at that point (they didn't hit the US till the late '60s). But yes, the Corvette would be as good as any car of the era at sustained high speeds, but to be fair, overall very few American cars of the era would be up to the task (brakes, suspension), but it wasn't the motors (the best in the world at that time).

[Soup DeVille]

Actually, the comparison began between motors (and the Corvette had Chevy's hottest motors) and then evolved into cars, but still based on motors (I think).

I guess what I was arguing was the "thats what Mercedes needed to do to produce 300 HP in the '60s" part.

That they nearly produced that with a 3 litre argues that they could have developed a +300 HP engine that was smaller and lighter if they wanted to.

[FoMoJo]

Problem with high speed cruising in the mid '60s was tires - bias ply tires were death at sustained high speeds. Perhaps ze Germans were already onto radials at that point (they didn't hit the US till the late '60s). But yes, the Corvette would be as good as any car of the era at sustained high speeds, but to be fair, overall very few American cars of the era would be up to the task (brakes, suspension), but it wasn't the motors (the best in the world at that time).

I would argue that there were a few that were better at the time, Jaguar's XK, developed in the '40s, Aston Martin, Ferrari.

[cawimmer430]

Top speed of classic Corvettes was highly variable, and primarily dependent on rear gear ratio. 4.10:1 rear gear would top out at 110-120 mph due to engine red line. 2.73:1 rear gear with the top motors (400+ hp) could easily reach 140-150 mph.

Various Chevy motors were designed to do all sorts of things, including racing and commercial duty use, both of which are at least as demanding as high speed cruising (and then, design of the vehicle; esp. cooing systems; becomes a major factor).

~250 hp and the aerodynamics of a brick preclude a top speed anywhere near 240 kph/155 mph for the 300 SEL 6.3. A bit of Googling says tested top speed was 220 kph/135 mph.

All engines rely on horsepower to get a down the road: hp = force (of drag) * velocity.

As much as people want to think of the 300SEL 6.3s as "sports cars", they were in reality sports sedans and the term "sport" back then for such a car basically meant fast acceleration and fast top speed, not necessarily sporty handling (these things are firm but still drive like boats).

MB didn't engineer this engine to compete with a sports car like the Corvette. The Corvette motors were probably used in some Cadillac or Buick sedans which competed with the 300SEL 6.3, and I imagine the extra weight and larger size of those American cars leveled the playing field, if one were to compare them from a "performance" POV. At any rate, the 300SEL 6.3 was a sensation for MB, which prior to this had produced relatively "low powered" cars (for American standards of the time) and inline-6s.

Different sources list different top speeds. 221 km/h, 235 km/h and some even higher. I'm guessing 220-230 km/h is a realistic value. And back in the day you could actually drive that speed. Nowadays there's so much traffic and so many slow idiots hogging the left lane. 

[cawimmer430]

Downhill with a tailwind maybe.

(A Corvette's top speed—gear limited—was about 240 km/h (150 mph).)

The sources I quickly consulted for the 300SEL 6.3 claimed it could do 235/240 km/h. Perhaps they are optimistic. Realistically, I think those cars could do 230 km/h+ - especially with tailwind. 


Ah crap, I was hoping for an Autobahn video...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmLlBmJzo0

[GoCougs]

As much as people want to think of the 300SEL 6.3s as "sports cars", they were in reality sports sedans and the term "sport" back then for such a car basically meant fast acceleration and fast top speed, not necessarily sporty handling (these things are firm but still drive like boats).

MB didn't engineer this engine to compete with a sports car like the Corvette. The Corvette motors were probably used in some Cadillac or Buick sedans which competed with the 300SEL 6.3, and I imagine the extra weight and larger size of those American cars leveled the playing field, if one were to compare them from a "performance" POV. At any rate, the 300SEL 6.3 was a sensation for MB, which prior to this had produced relatively "low powered" cars (for American standards of the time) and inline-6s.

Different sources list different top speeds. 221 km/h, 235 km/h and some even higher. I'm guessing 220-230 km/h is a realistic value. And back in the day you could actually drive that speed. Nowadays there's so much traffic and so many slow idiots hogging the left lane. 

Actually, in the '60s, each GM division had its own motors - Chevy 350/5.7L, Buick 350/5.7L, Olds 350/5.7L and Pontiac 350/5.7L were each unique and shared zero internal parts. Cadillac motors were unique too.

Detroit built hi-po four-door cars for law enforcement, and they were serious business, meeting or exceeding the 300 SEL 6.3's 220 kph/135 mph. Scroll about 1/3 of the way down this link under "1968" and you'll see a table of such vehicles tested in 1968, with the best being a Dodge 440 Polara topping out at 235 kph/147 mph: https://www.allpar.com/squads/history.html. These cars were widely available or popular though my bet is these cars could be special ordered if a buyer had a desire, but it really wasn't back in the day. Much cooler to get a pony car with tall gears if high speed cruising was the desire. Also hard to say how well these cars performed beyond top speed - even with suspension mods of these LE packages, probably not as good 300 SEL, but it would be an interesting comparison.

Also, Leno interviews a retired LAPD LEO about best cop cars. Included is a '69 Polara. Guess which one he chooses as best :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0pjW8Ss0WI

[MX793]

Actually, in the '60s, each GM division had its own motors - Chevy 350/5.7L, Buick 350/5.7L, Olds 350/5.7L and Pontiac 350/5.7L were each unique and shared zero internal parts. Cadillac motors were unique too.

Not only did each division have its own engines, customers got all up in arms when GM started to consolidate engines and started using Chevy engines in Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles in the 1970s.  GM was actually sued and had to refund some money to Oldsmobile buyers who got Chevy V8s instead of Oldsmobile V8s in their '77 Olds.

[GoCougs]

Not only did each division have its own engines, customers got all up in arms when GM started to consolidate engines and started using Chevy engines in Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles in the 1970s.  GM was actually sued and had to refund some money to Oldsmobile buyers who got Chevy V8s instead of Oldsmobile V8s in their '77 Olds.

Which is a bit of a shame, as the Olds 403 was not a very good motor (Siamese'd cylinders), and only produced for four years.

[FoMoJo]

Which is a bit of a shame, as the Olds 403 was not a very good motor (Siamese'd cylinders), and only produced for four years.

Pretty stand fare for GM small blocks; for far too long.

[GoCougs]

Pretty stand fare for GM small blocks; for far too long.

Challenge accepted of course .

Well, firstly, there was ever one GM small block, and that was the one produced by Chevy, and we all know how that worked out.

All other GM brands used one block for all displacements from sub 300 to 455, for costs savings in light of narrower product range and lower volumes. At most what changed was block height. Chevy was different obviously, having two distinct block sizes, as Chevy/GMC built a much wider variation and much higher volume of vehicles - from an expensive sports car to commercial trucks to the most popular model year in the history of the automobile ('65 Impala at 1,000,000+ units).

As to the 403 Olds, it used the short deck height block, and was compromised in strength and RPM as a result of its ginormous bore and short stroke. It wasn't a great motor. But then again, neither was its contemporaries, the 400M and Chevy 400 small block. These budget big displacement experiments are interesting however IMO in that the represented the last gasps of Detroit trying to eek out some measure performance while being (overly) cost and mpg conscious.

[cawimmer430]

Actually, in the '60s, each GM division had its own motors - Chevy 350/5.7L, Buick 350/5.7L, Olds 350/5.7L and Pontiac 350/5.7L were each unique and shared zero internal parts. Cadillac motors were unique too.

Detroit built hi-po four-door cars for law enforcement, and they were serious business, meeting or exceeding the 300 SEL 6.3's 220 kph/135 mph. Scroll about 1/3 of the way down this link under "1968" and you'll see a table of such vehicles tested in 1968, with the best being a Dodge 440 Polara topping out at 235 kph/147 mph: https://www.allpar.com/squads/history.html. These cars were widely available or popular though my bet is these cars could be special ordered if a buyer had a desire, but it really wasn't back in the day. Much cooler to get a pony car with tall gears if high speed cruising was the desire.

Also hard to say how well these cars performed beyond top speed - even with suspension mods of these LE packages, probably not as good 300 SEL, but it would be an interesting comparison.

For their time the W108/W109 S-Classes were considered "sporty" and they obviously were very stable at high speed. Today they might perceived as floaty and vague, but still reasonably comfortable.

At the end of last year I shot a 1963 Mercedes 220S "Fintail" and rode with the owner. On the Autobahn we hit 160 km/h (100 mph) and the car was incredibly comfortable and well-planted. On the downside the inline-6 was rather loud (it was a 4-speed column shift manual, maybe if it was Automatic it would be a little quieter).

Also, Leno interviews a retired LAPD LEO about best cop cars. Included is a '69 Polara. Guess which one he chooses as best :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0pjW8Ss0WI

Love that video and the Polara. Ironically I would have gone for that 1970s Mercury based purely on looks.