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Auto Talk => The Garage => Topic started by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 08:03:58 PM

Title: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 08:03:58 PM
Intro
I want to start this essay by pointing out a couple of things.  First, I am not an engineer; I am only a mechanic who is interested in forming a basic understanding at a technical level, so that I can intelligently form opinions and inform others.  Also, I am in debt to a number of people who have gone through the time, money, and effort of a higher education and who have studied and written so much on this topic.  Thanks must go to General Motors dealer training, members of Bobistheoilguy.com (there is actually a lot of unbiased info there), members of NASIOC.com, Howstuffworks.com, and others.

What is engine oil?
Engine oil has several key ingredients which allow it to be effective in an internal combustion engine (hereafter referred to as an ICE or just Engine).  The primary component is the Base Stock.  This is the refined hydrocarbon oil that is supplied to the manufacturer.{1}

There are two types of base stock, each with different grades.  Mineral or "dino" oil is the most basic type, and comes in three grades:  Group I, Group II, and Group III.    Grp I is very rare these days; almost all motor oils that meet the latest API and manufacturer specs are at least Grp II.  Grp III is controversial, because these are allowed to be marketed as synthetic oils.  One example, and the primary offender in this, is Castrol Syntec.  It is not bad oil by any means, but the marketing nightmare it has created is worthy of a whole new thread, so I will leave this with the fact that Grp III is easily an excellent base stock, in that it is the most heavily refined without being considered a full synthetic.{1}

The second type of base stock is called Synthetic.  These come in two grades:  Group IV, and Group V.  Group IV base stocks are PAO (Polyalphaolefin) based oils.  In the most basic terms, these are hydrocarbons that have been broken down into their most basic parts and recombined to form a "perfect" hydrocarbon oil.  Group V stands for a "catch-all" description of synthetic oils that are not PAO based, and often are formed from esters.{1,4}

The base stock represents about 80% of an oil (varying by manufacturer).  The rest is  made up of Viscosity Index Improvers, acid neutralizers, sludge inhibitors, thickening inhibitors, dispersants, detergents, seal swell agents, and anti-scuff additives.  This is a broad list, but thankfully the names are fairly self-explanatory. For example, detergents chemically bond with contaminants, while dispersants suspend those new molecules in solution. Anti-scuffing pertains mainly to cold-start conditions, where there is only a relatively thin film of oil available to prevent wear.{1}

All in all, a very complex creature.

What does oil do?
I think a valid second step would be to discuss what exactly oil does in an engine.  Primarily, oil acts as a lubricant.  It creates a boundary layer between metal parts to prevent them from actually touching.  It is a testament to how oil does its job in that you can disassemble an engine with hundreds of thousands of miles and still see the machined cross-hatching on the cylinder bores.{1}

The next valuable service that oil performs is cooling. Yes, most of the cooling of an ICE is created by the cooling system itself.  Yet the coolant passages cannot reach all of the motor, and some parts such as the valve-train see no cooling at all other than what motor oil supplies.  The valvetrain is sprayed with a perpetually refreshing coating of oil, while the undersides of the pistons are typically splashed or sprayed with oil as well. Oil is therefore also essential as a cooling aid.{1}

Engine oil also helps seal the combustion chamber.  The combustion event is a very violent action, and creates significant pressure.  The metal rings that encompass a piston could not seal properly if there was not a layer of oil helping.  This is also why oil becomes contaminated with time, or burns off causing the need to add oil occasionally in some engines.{1}

Last but not least is the inhibition of corrosion.  Bare metal, when exposed to moist air, corrodes. That corrosion leads to pitting, changes in clearance, and insoluble contaminants. Oil forms an air seal against those effects.{1}

Dispelling Myths.
To begin; the 3,000mi oil change is effectively dead.  Oil has come a very long way over the years.{1}  We've come from API SA rated oils to S(x), which represents numerous revisions.{6}  Each revision has demanded greater performance in a variety of areas, including:  cold pump-ability, cold start protection, viscosity retention/breakdown protection, fuel economy, overall wear protection, shear stability (i.e. actual viscosity in high temperature, high sheer situations), sludge control and others that I'm sure I'm missing.{1,6}

If you peruse a site such as www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums) you can find countless used oil analysis (UOAs) showing that even with a prolonged oil change interval there is still plenty of additive reserve, good viscosity, and low wear metals such as lead and copper.{2}  This may be purely anecdotal, but consider this:  General Motors has seen fit to equip their vehicles with an oil life monitoring system (OLM).  I will discuss this system in the next section.

Other myths have to do with the whole synthetic/mineral oil debate.  Some claim that sythetics should not be used during engine break-in.  However, at a given viscosity synthetic oils are not going to lubricate better than dino oils (according to GM engineers).{1}  Also, the barrier film doesn't seem to be any different for either oil.  Finally, many OEMs use synthetic factory fills, and if there were any issues with engine break-in you'd think that wouldn't be the case.{1}  With all of that said, there is still some debate due to the fact that many engine builders recommend special break-in oils, etc.  The theory is that synthetics tend to protect against scuffing much better than dino oils.  I don't know where this comes from, but I wanted to present it to you the reader for your consideration.

Another is that switching to synthetic in a high-mileage motor will cause oil leaks.  This may be somewhat true, but only because the synthetic oil "found" a leak that was already forming.  What I mean is this; conventional base oils have many molecules of various sizes.  This makes for a fluid that may not seep as readily through a surface, because the larger molecules form a bit of a barrier.  Synthetics tend to have molecules of a similar size.  Therefore it stands to reason that synthetics could tend to seep more readily through a surface, particularly if there was already a gateway.  That said, there is nothing about synthetics that would cause seal failure.  If anything, some Group V synthetics could actually help seal an engine leak, since the esters that they are based on are used as a seal swelling agent in the additive pack of most oils.

Oil Life Monitoring, and what it means for you.
The GM OLM has been in constant use and development since the 1988 model year (making this 20 years total at the time of this post).  Additionally, GM lubricant engineers see 900+ UOAs a year from all makes and models, analyzing each one to determine whether or not the OLM calibrations are working effectively.  Multiply that by the number of years, and you get roughly 18000 UOAs.  The fact is that oil analysis is a very powerful tool, assuming you can accurately assess the information gleaned from one.{1,2}

The OLM uses a multitude of factors to determine the oil life percentage remaining.  These include ambient temp, engine coolant temp, intake air temp, length of trip, engine RPM, etc.  The OLM is calibrated at the factory to assume the correct amount of good quality oil.  Whether it is synthetic or not is irrelevant, which I will explain later.  Also, the OLM is calibrated to allow a 20% buffer.  Technically the owner's manual states a 600mi buffer, but in reality vehicle miles have little to no bearing on actual oil wear.  Therefore I point out the actual buffer.{1}

Even with that buffer, many owners are going for well over 5000 miles between changes; a new GMC Acadia that I worked on yesterday had over 8000 on the clock and still indicated 3% oil life remaining (or effectively 23%).  This is eye-opening for me, especially considering the fact that GM is so religious in maintaining a safe margin of error in the calibration.  *20160205 revision; note, GM actually had to retroactively change the OLM programming for vehicles using the 3.6L V6, due to excessive drive chain wear.

I would like to add one caviat that GM included in SI Doc 864693, stating, "Never drive the vehicle more than 16 000 km (10,000 miles) or 12 months without an oil and oil filter change. The system will not detect dust in the oil. If the vehicle is driven in a dusty area, be sure to change the oil and oil filter every 5 000 km (3,000 miles) or sooner if the CHANGE OIL SOON indicator comes on. Reset the Oil Life System when the oil and filter have been changed."

Which oil should I use?
The best answer to that question is to dodge it...  Honestly, it's a matter of personal preference at this point.  Syn/Dino, Valvoline/Castrol; all of these choices can be confusing and somewhat daunting.  Let me help you with this.  If you take two oils of different brands of the same viscosity and API service rating, they should perform more or less the same in your motor.  True, there are some differences in additive packs or in actual viscosity at a given temperature.  But, they have to meet the same basic standards for performance, which means that either one should work fine in your motor.{1,2,5,6}

As for the synthetic vs mineral oil debate, look at this:  the base stock, assuming a closed environment, does not break down.  The main reason that oil needs to be changed is contamination.{9}  Moisture in the air and blow-by from combustion events are the main conspirators in the destruction of your oil.  They are the main reason for the additive packs in motor oils.  These additives are expended with time, which results in increased sludge, insolubles, and acids in the oil.  Also, multigrade oils which use a viscosity index improver to meet certain cold flow performance requirements can lose that ability as those VIIs wear off.

If you want to know why this is bad on an engine, just do a photo search for, "Toyota Sludge," and you will get a perfect visual of what worn oil will do.  But again, it is not the base stock that's wearing, its the buildup of contaminants and the loss of VIIs that keep the oil from performing the missions that I listed previously.

So, this means that your choice of base stock is less relevant.  That said, I still like synthetic for a couple of reasons.  For one, synthetics tend to have better cold flow.  This means that it can be readily pumped to bearing surfaces to maintain that boundary layer that I mentioned, even at very cold temperatures.  Also, synthetics tend to hold onto their viscosity longer even under high heat conditions.  This means that if you have a turbo or run constant high RPMs, the oil won't lose it's ability to maintain viscosity (and the boundary layer that comes into play).  These two factors however are only relevant to a small minority of car buyers/drivers.  Far more people live in balmy California than in Fairbanks or Breckenridge.

Is diesel oil ok for my gasoline engine?
In brief, usually.  So long as it meets the API certification that your owner's manual demands, it will be fine.  The main difference between them is the increased amount of ZDDP and detergents.  ZDDP is a detergent itself, but also adds a lot of phosphorous and zinc to the additive package.  ZDDP is an excellent anti-scuffing agent, which means that it is there to protect moving parts during startup, when there is not enough flow to maintain the boundary layer that oil normally creates.  Diesel engines tend to create a lot of soot in the oil, and also see incredible pressures compared to gasoline engines, hence this need.{1,2,5,6} I personally prefer to run diesel oils.


Logical Conclusions.
So you ask, "How often should we change our oil then"  Frankly, if you are not blessed with an OLM system then you should just follow your owner's manual.  I cannot emphasize that enough.  You will rarely come across a 3000mi interval in your manual (unless you own a turbo Subaru post-2007, but then those aren't real cars anyway).  Most likely it will say at least 5,000mi, frequently 7,500mi or in some rare cases as much as 15,000mi.  Back this up with oil analysis if you're nervous.

One could say, "Well, what harm could I do by changing the oil every 3,000 miles?"  Well, maybe not much, but you are wasting perfectly good oil, and costing yourself needlessly hundreds of dollars over the life of a car (and thousands over your whole lifetime!).  Remember the axiom, "If it ain't broke don't fix it?"  Yeah, that applies to oil as well.  Do what feels best ultimately, but keep in mind that it may not be necessary.

Note that if you are going to do a UOA yourself in order to determine your target OCI, proper technique is key to the most accurate results.  Per my Blackstone Labs directions, make sure to take your sample in the middle of the drain; in other words neither at the beginning nor end.  This minimizes contaminants that settled in the sump and may throw off the reading.

My UOA, number 1 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1156983#Post1156983)
My UOA, Number 2 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2929857)
My UOA, numbers 3 and 4 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2929872&#Post2929872)


Revised 05/22/08 to add link to my first UOA.
Revised 02/28/08 for new info on UOA and synthetic break-in.
Revised 02/05/16 for new info regarding potential fallibility of OLM systems
Sources:
GM IDL course 102017.16D "Engine Oil". {1}
Bob is the Oil Guy forums. (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/){2}
Oil 101 by Dr A.E. Haas (http://www.supramania.com/aehaas/){3}
NASIOC oil FAQ (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=499177){4}
API info (http://www.api.org/Oil-and-Natural-Gas-Overview/Fuels-and-Refining/Engine-Oil/Look_For_the_Products_That_Carry_the_API_Quality_Marks){5}
API pdf on oil ratings. (http://www.api.org/Certification-Programs/Engine-Oil-Diesel-Exhaust-Fluid/Service-Categories){6}
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 08:05:37 PM
Any commentary or corrections from professionals/engineers/general know-it-alls welcome. :ohyeah:
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: CALL_911 on February 09, 2008, 08:05:58 PM
Damn, R-Inge. That's bloody awesome.
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 08:06:57 PM
I will try to include a solid bibliography as well, so that people know this isn't just some half baked stuff I pulled out of my arse.
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: the Teuton on February 09, 2008, 08:10:55 PM
This makes me feel better.  My oil has about 6,000 miles on it right now, unfortunately.  But this oil dates back to May for the most part -- when I had my engine replaced.  It's getting changed this week, but should I be concerned?
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 08:11:40 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on February 09, 2008, 08:10:55 PM
This makes me feel better.  My oil has about 6,000 miles on it right now, unfortunately.  But this oil dates back to May for the most part -- when I had my engine replaced.  It's getting changed this week, but should I be concerned?

Go to Blackstone Labs' website and get a UOA sampling kit.  Mail it to then with  $22, and see what they tell ya.
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: the Teuton on February 09, 2008, 08:14:07 PM
Quote from: R-inge on February 09, 2008, 08:11:40 PM
Go to Blackstone Labs' website and get a UOA sampling kit.  Mail it to then with  $22, and see what they tell ya.

Srsly?

Actually, I was wrong.  It has about 5,000 miles.  I had 159,xxx on the odometer when I got the car back.
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 08:15:43 PM
Here is an example of a UOA report:  Read first post (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1082543#Post1082543)
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: the Teuton on February 09, 2008, 08:22:11 PM
So 5,000 miles is a happy number then?  It looks like it.
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: The Pirate on February 09, 2008, 08:29:57 PM
Way cool, dude!  :rockon: :ohyeah:

I must confess that I've been changing mine at 3000 miles for quite some time now.  I will be rethinking that decision.
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 08:37:55 PM
I change mine every 3750, just because Subaru changed their policy to include all turbo engines under the "severe service" maintenance category.  But as soon as the power train warranty is up I will rely on UOAs to determine the correct interval.
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 08:38:38 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on February 09, 2008, 08:22:11 PM
So 5,000 miles is a happy number then?  It looks like it.

Other reports have been happy with even higher numbers.  But if you want a hard and fast number, go with the one in your manual.
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: 280Z Turbo on February 09, 2008, 08:45:05 PM
They say 5000 to 7500 for "normal" driving.

But aren't most drivers classified as severe drivers?
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 08:46:15 PM
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on February 09, 2008, 08:45:05 PM
They say 5000 to 7500 for "normal" driving.

But aren't most drivers classified as severe drivers?

Depends on how your manufacturer classifies "severe" but if you do, follow that recommended interval.
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: Rupert on February 09, 2008, 08:48:28 PM
I used to change the Miata's oil at about 3000 miles, because beyond that mileage, there would be too much HLA clatter. (The miata.net forums have a ton of HLA stuff for NA Miatas; it's a common problem).
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 08:50:43 PM
Right, known issues are a good reason to follow special intervals.  My idea here was simply to educate, but it seems like most people are getting caught up on my section concerning oil change intervals.
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: Rupert on February 09, 2008, 09:16:34 PM
Well, you didn't say in there, "With the exception of certain engine issues,...".

;)
Title: Re: Oil: Finding the Facts (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 10:26:51 PM
Quote from: Psilos on February 09, 2008, 09:16:34 PM
Well, you didn't say in there, "With the exception of certain engine issues,...".

;)

I did however say to follow your owner's manual.  But you're correct, and it's mainly because I never heard of that before.  ;)
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: 280Z Turbo on February 09, 2008, 10:29:52 PM
I would say there are no facts about oil. Only opinions and anecdotal evidence. :lol:

I've heard that I'm destyoing my solid lifter camshaft in the Z by not using diesel oil. :huh:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: Secret Chimp on February 09, 2008, 10:42:02 PM
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on February 09, 2008, 10:29:52 PM
I would say there are no facts about oil. Only opinions and anecdotal evidence. :lol:

I've heard that I'm destyoing my solid lifter camshaft in the Z by not using diesel oil. :huh:

Four-cylinder Accords all the way up to 1997 have adjustable lifters and recommend 5W-30 oil :P
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 10:43:22 PM
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on February 09, 2008, 10:29:52 PM
I would say there are no facts about oil. Only opinions and anecdotal evidence. :lol:

I've heard that I'm destyoing my solid lifter camshaft in the Z by not using diesel oil. :huh:

Bullschmitt.

I've read a lot lately about that, and I will clue you in on why they say that.  Diesel oils have a very high percentage of zinc and phosphorous, via the additive ZDDP.  This is usually 1500ppm.  Even up till recent history, most gasoline oils had around 1000ppm ZDDP.  What is ZDDP you ask?  An anti-scuff and detergent additive, which tends to be most useful during cold starts.  The reason it's good for flat tappet and/or solid lifter cams is that there is a ton of pressure there and little lubrication from your fluids at startup.

However, even at today's decreased level of around 600ppm ZDDP in SM rated oils it is still a lot more than in the 50s when oldsmobile engines with flat tappet cams were failing, and ZDDP was first discovered as a necessary additive.  The reason it dropped from recent highs to a lower level at this time is because it was discovered that ZDDP contaminates catalytic converters.  So, manufacturers got together with the oil companies to reduce that additive to save money.  Many people will tell you that this is the death of good motor oil, but when a new oil standard is established they must be certified as backwards compatible with all previous oil certs, and all previous engine designs still on the road.  That means that flat tappet and solid lifter cams are certified solid gold with the latest gasoline engine oils.

That all said, if you want extra safety and a bit more confidence, diesel engine oils are very cheap and are generally always API certified for your gasoline motor.  Assuming the age of your car, it recommended something like SG or SH.  You could use the latest greatest or use some old API SL oil and still be way ahead of your minimum standard.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: 280Z Turbo on February 09, 2008, 10:43:50 PM
It has something to do with additives they used back in the 70's vs. now, environmental standards, blah, blah, blah, etc.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 10:44:02 PM
Quote from: Secret Chimp on February 09, 2008, 10:42:02 PM
Four-cylinder Accords all the way up to 1997 have adjustable lifters and recommend 5W-30 oil :P

You can get diesel oil in many different viscosities, not just 15w-40.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 10:44:30 PM
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on February 09, 2008, 10:43:50 PM
It has something to do with additives they used back in the 70's vs. now, environmental standards, blah, blah, blah, etc.

I explained it already, read my post.  :rage: :lol:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: 280Z Turbo on February 09, 2008, 10:46:49 PM
Quote from: R-inge on February 09, 2008, 10:44:30 PM
I explained it already, read my post.  :rage: :lol:

That was posted 28 seconds after your post. I didn't get around to reading it.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ (In development)(Sticky plz?)
Post by: S204STi on February 09, 2008, 10:50:46 PM
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on February 09, 2008, 10:46:49 PM
That was posted 28 seconds after your post. I didn't get around to reading it.

That's no excuse!
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on February 14, 2008, 08:25:29 PM
Wow - that's something you could probably sell - and completely dead-nuts on IMO. I'll provide a bit of diatribe to echo your sentiments:

3,000 mile OCI is indeed a myth - "severe conditions" are cop cars, tow trucks, taxis and other such vehicles which spend a significant amount of time idling, as ultimately engine oil life is a function of engine run time. Such vehicles have a lot more engine hours per mile. IMO, if one isn't using their vehicle in such a manner virtually full-time, then it's not "severe" conditions. Either way, you're 100% correct - the OLM will tell the real story.

Synthetic's advantages are not near what the manufacturers claim. The only real advantages IMO are that it may last longer, and that it is available in wide weight ranges, such as 5W-50 which was used in the previous-gen M3 IIRC. (FWIW, my Accord manual says that even with synthetic the standard OCI must be followed or the warranty is void.) Synthetics have a slight advantage at minimum pumping temp (actually an ASTM spec), but even conventional 5w-30 will pump down to -30F (synthetic 5W-30 seems to be usually -35F to -40F). Conventional oils today are so good nowadays that 10,000 mile OCI are not uncommon (4 cyl Accord for example per my manual).



Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: 280Z Turbo on February 14, 2008, 09:02:42 PM
The problem is that some cars in some conditions might benefit from 3000 mile oil changes.

There are so many variables that it's hard to make any blanket statements. It's hard to say.

I shoot for 3000 and I do it when I get around to it, just to be safe. :huh:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on February 14, 2008, 10:32:03 PM
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on February 14, 2008, 09:02:42 PM
The problem is that some cars in some conditions might benefit from 3000 mile oil changes.

There are so many variables that it's hard to make any blanket statements. It's hard to say.

I shoot for 3000 and I do it when I get around to it, just to be safe. :huh:

Sure, but the conditions would have to be really extreme. Even the standard 7,500 mile OIC have a decent margin on them as R-inge noted.

The other issue I completely forgot about was oil filters - they're designed to be changed only every other oil change, but who does that any more?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: 280Z Turbo on February 14, 2008, 10:35:35 PM
I always change the filter.

I use Wix filters too. They're supposed to be really good.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: JWC on February 15, 2008, 08:56:56 PM
Is there a current listing for the percentage of zinc in motor oils?

With the introduction of low-sulfur diesels, ZDDP has been reduced in diesel motor oils.  The only chart I can find is undated and list Kendall GT1 as having the highest content.  This is followed closely by Valvoline Racing 15w-40. 

Edit...the chart was dated...1999.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on February 15, 2008, 11:02:06 PM
Quote from: JWC on February 15, 2008, 08:56:56 PM
Is there a current listing for the percentage of zinc in motor oils?

With the introduction of low-sulfur diesels, ZDDP has been reduced in diesel motor oils.  The only chart I can find is undated and list Kendall GT1 as having the highest content.  This is followed closely by Valvoline Racing 15w-40. 

Edit...the chart was dated...1999.

According to this guy:  http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

The level of ZDDP was reduced from 0.14% to 0.10%.  So, if it previously had 1400ppm, it now has 1000ppm.

I think in real life, gasoline oils are down to around 800ppm.  Not sure about diesels, though.  Best bet is to look for VOA sheets on different oils.

Something to remember is that any new specification has to provide the same level of protection that the previous spec provided, and that includes flat-tappet cams.  Also, since ZDDP also acts as a detergent, other detergents are now present in a higher percentage to make up for the reduction.

The BITOG guys seem to love Shell Rotella T.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on February 15, 2008, 11:10:19 PM
Quote from: GoCougs on February 14, 2008, 08:25:29 PM
Wow - that's something you could probably sell - and completely dead-nuts on IMO. I'll provide a bit of diatribe to echo your sentiments:

3,000 mile OCI is indeed a myth - "severe conditions" are cop cars, tow trucks, taxis and other such vehicles which spend a significant amount of time idling, as ultimately engine oil life is a function of engine run time. Such vehicles have a lot more engine hours per mile. IMO, if one isn't using their vehicle in such a manner virtually full-time, then it's not "severe" conditions. Either way, you're 100% correct - the OLM will tell the real story.

Synthetic's advantages are not near what the manufacturers claim. The only real advantages IMO are that it may last longer, and that it is available in wide weight ranges, such as 5W-50 which was used in the previous-gen M3 IIRC. (FWIW, my Accord manual says that even with synthetic the standard OCI must be followed or the warranty is void.) Synthetics have a slight advantage at minimum pumping temp (actually an ASTM spec), but even conventional 5w-30 will pump down to -30F (synthetic 5W-30 seems to be usually -35F to -40F). Conventional oils today are so good nowadays that 10,000 mile OCI are not uncommon (4 cyl Accord for example per my manual).





I appreciate the support! 
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: JWC on February 16, 2008, 06:20:23 AM
Quote from: R-inge on February 15, 2008, 11:02:06 PM
According to this guy:  http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

The level of ZDDP was reduced from 0.14% to 0.10%.  So, if it previously had 1400ppm, it now has 1000ppm.

I think in real life, gasoline oils are down to around 800ppm.  Not sure about diesels, though.  Best bet is to look for VOA sheets on different oils.

Something to remember is that any new specification has to provide the same level of protection that the previous spec provided, and that includes flat-tappet cams.  Also, since ZDDP also acts as a detergent, other detergents are now present in a higher percentage to make up for the reduction.

The BITOG guys seem to love Shell Rotella T.

Aircooled forums recommend Rotella, but since the new Rotella has dropped the amount of zinc, have been searching for motor oils that have will boost the percentage.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on February 16, 2008, 08:26:26 AM
Quote from: JWC on February 16, 2008, 06:20:23 AM
Aircooled forums recommend Rotella, but since the new Rotella has dropped the amount of zinc, have been searching for motor oils that have will boost the percentage.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it.  I want to elaborate a bit more on something I said on the first page; ZDDP was first discovered as an antiscuffing agent in the 50s when Oldsmobile motors with flat-tappet cams were experiencing a high failure rate.  From that time on some level of ZDDP has always been present.

Now, it may seem like the current reduction in ZDDP is dangerous, but the fact is that even current levels are way higher than they were back when they initially began to add it to your engine oil.  Add to that the other improvements of SM oil such as improved film strength, and the fact that it HAS to be certified to protect flat-tappet cams, and you can see that the hubbub over SM rated oils is kinda silly.

Heck, just look at the amount of zinc and phosporous remaining in a typical UOA, and you will see that there is plenty of reserve even after a few thousand miles.  This indicates to me that we are at a good level still to protect older engines.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on February 16, 2008, 08:29:06 AM
Here, read this VOA thread about Motorcraft 15w-40 diesel oil.  Motorcraft 15w-40 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1035361&fpart=1).

Notice how zinc and phosphorous are still around 1000ppm?

I'm pretty sure, based on the date this was posted, that the fluid is SM/CJ4.  I could be wrong however.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: JWC on February 16, 2008, 08:55:19 PM
Quote from: R-inge on February 16, 2008, 08:29:06 AM
Here, read this VOA thread about Motorcraft 15w-40 diesel oil.  Motorcraft 15w-40 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1035361&fpart=1).

Notice how zinc and phosphorous are still around 1000ppm?

I'm pretty sure, based on the date this was posted, that the fluid is SM/CJ4.  I could be wrong however.

Haven't read the link, but the level you mentioned is the current level.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on February 16, 2008, 09:14:56 PM
I would be curious what you think about recycled oil. I just got the oil changed in the Jetta, and using recycled oil was the cheapest, so I figured why not? :huh:
I have no idea what the recyclign process is, what viscocity it is, or if it is API approved.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: 280Z Turbo on February 16, 2008, 09:23:02 PM
Quote from: NACar on February 16, 2008, 09:14:56 PM
I would be curious what you think about recycled oil. I just got the oil changed in the Jetta, and using recycled oil was the cheapest, so I figured why not? :huh:
I have no idea what the recyclign process is, what viscocity it is, or if it is API approved.

You'll find out when you throw a rod.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Secret Chimp on February 16, 2008, 09:46:42 PM
Possible dumb question: Why is it that my week-old oil now looks and smells exactly the same as the 3500 mile old oil I drained out from the engine?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Soup DeVille on February 16, 2008, 11:31:33 PM
Quote from: Secret Chimp on February 16, 2008, 09:46:42 PM
Possible dumb question: Why is it that my week-old oil now looks and smells exactly the same as the 3500 mile old oil I drained out from the engine?

It's now been in the engine.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on February 17, 2008, 12:06:53 AM
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on February 16, 2008, 09:23:02 PM
You'll find out when you throw a rod.

i'll throw a rod at your face
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: 280Z Turbo on February 17, 2008, 12:13:42 AM
Quote from: NACar on February 17, 2008, 12:06:53 AM
i'll throw a rod at your face

That will be quite easy to do when it shoots out of a hole in your oil pan onto the ground.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on February 17, 2008, 12:35:19 AM
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on February 17, 2008, 12:13:42 AM
That will be quite easy to do when it shoots out of a hole in your oil pan onto the ground.

damn straight
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on February 17, 2008, 01:00:01 PM
Quote from: NACar on February 16, 2008, 09:14:56 PM
I would be curious what you think about recycled oil. I just got the oil changed in the Jetta, and using recycled oil was the cheapest, so I figured why not? :huh:
I have no idea what the recyclign process is, what viscocity it is, or if it is API approved.

As long as it is API certified to meet the minimum specs set by your manufacturer, there is no need to shy from recycled oil.  It is basically sent back and re-refined, and all the impurities are removed, so there is nothing wrong with using it.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on February 17, 2008, 01:01:00 PM
Quote from: Secret Chimp on February 16, 2008, 09:46:42 PM
Possible dumb question: Why is it that my week-old oil now looks and smells exactly the same as the 3500 mile old oil I drained out from the engine?

That's a good thing; it means your detergents and dispersants are doing a good job of picking up contaminants and suspending them in solution.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on February 18, 2008, 12:47:01 PM
Quote from: R-inge on February 17, 2008, 01:01:00 PM
That's a good thing; it means your detergents and dispersants are doing a good job of picking up contaminants and suspending them in solution.

What if your new oil turns into black sludge after the first day?

that's what this thing does :lol:

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j128/ncasler/oko/be98516d.jpg)
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: r0tor on February 18, 2008, 04:18:55 PM
i take a bit of exception to the break-in paragraph... because there are special factory fills out there using modified oils that have less anti-friction additives to promote break-in. Its also not a myth of synthetics being less "lubrious" because often times synthetics by nature can hold more additives and use a higher grade additive package because they can afford to do so in the pricing.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: r0tor on February 18, 2008, 04:24:38 PM
i'd also be against any recommendation of shelling out money for UOA's or putting much faith into them because of the size of the reservoir and location of oil drains does not really promote getting a decent sample... most of the time you end up getting a varying amount of the scrap laying in the oil pan and hance the UOA's tend to look too erradict to draw any true conclusions from (but people do anyway... ugh)
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: 280Z Turbo on February 18, 2008, 08:23:01 PM
How often do you add oil, r0tor?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on February 18, 2008, 10:19:26 PM
Quote from: r0tor on February 18, 2008, 04:18:55 PM
i take a bit of exception to the break-in paragraph... because there are special factory fills out there using modified oils that have less anti-friction additives to promote break-in. Its also not a myth of synthetics being less "lubrious" because often times synthetics by nature can hold more additives and use a higher grade additive package because they can afford to do so in the pricing.

"Lubricious" is a word one of the engineers used, I just assumed it was a word.

Maybe some engines vary in terms of break-in needs, but I would assume that in most cases it doesn't make a lick of difference.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on February 18, 2008, 10:20:24 PM
Quote from: r0tor on February 18, 2008, 04:24:38 PM
i'd also be against any recommendation of shelling out money for UOA's or putting much faith into them because of the size of the reservoir and location of oil drains does not really promote getting a decent sample... most of the time you end up getting a varying amount of the scrap laying in the oil pan and hance the UOA's tend to look too erradict to draw any true conclusions from (but people do anyway... ugh)

Catch the oil in a seperate container as it spills out; not that hard.  And again, if automotive engineers rely so heavily on them why can't we as owners?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: r0tor on February 19, 2008, 05:48:53 AM
Quote from: R-inge on February 18, 2008, 10:20:24 PM
Catch the oil in a seperate container as it spills out; not that hard.  And again, if automotive engineers rely so heavily on them why can't we as owners?

I worked at an oil company - while they did use real world testing of employee cars and dyno testing of manufacturer supplied cars and engines, the cars themselves were fitted with taps in the oil lines to get a clean sample of the engine oil.  The testing was also done after thousands of hours of lab testing just to make sure the lab results were comparable to the real world - not really used to help formulate the oil.  If you want really good results, tapping oil off the bottom of the pan is just not good. 

Currently at work I run oil analysis on the stuff at our plant and any time you tap off a resevoir, its required to drain at least a gallon off so you get a clean sample.  For machinery having less then a few gallons, we just change the oil and screw the analysis because its just not worth it.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on February 20, 2008, 08:38:43 AM
Quote from: r0tor on February 19, 2008, 05:48:53 AM
I worked at an oil company - while they did use real world testing of employee cars and dyno testing of manufacturer supplied cars and engines, the cars themselves were fitted with taps in the oil lines to get a clean sample of the engine oil.  The testing was also done after thousands of hours of lab testing just to make sure the lab results were comparable to the real world - not really used to help formulate the oil.  If you want really good results, tapping oil off the bottom of the pan is just not good. 

Currently at work I run oil analysis on the stuff at our plant and any time you tap off a resevoir, its required to drain at least a gallon off so you get a clean sample.  For machinery having less then a few gallons, we just change the oil and screw the analysis because its just not worth it.

Thats very good to know!  My question would be this: What if you're just analyzing the oil for certain trace metals and chemicals, such as most consumer UOAs do?  Would having other contaminants ruin your readings?

Also, with even that considered, is it still useful as even a guide in tracking trends over time?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Danish on February 21, 2008, 03:26:39 AM
Quote from: GoCougs on February 14, 2008, 10:32:03 PM
The other issue I completely forgot about was oil filters - they're designed to be changed only every other oil change, but who does that any more?

Who runs clean oil through a dirty filter?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: r0tor on March 01, 2008, 10:36:19 AM
Quote from: R-inge on February 20, 2008, 08:38:43 AM
Thats very good to know!  My question would be this: What if you're just analyzing the oil for certain trace metals and chemicals, such as most consumer UOAs do?  Would having other contaminants ruin your readings?

Also, with even that considered, is it still useful as even a guide in tracking trends over time?

The ultimate problem is getting it from the drain pan is that one sample you might get a blob of oil pan sludge in and the next time you won't.  Ultimately everything thats in the drain pan came from your engine, but if your getting various amount of concentrated junk in a sample its hard to draw a real conclusion.  With the small sample size, just a few drops of the concentrated goop that we all know lines our oil pans can throw results off.

Secret Chimp asked why his week old oil looks the same as his 3500 mile oil did.  Its because theres junk in the system that builds up and the dispersants in the new oil break some of it down and suspend it in the oil.  The same junk causing this is the same junk that could offset your trends by large amounts.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Soup DeVille on March 01, 2008, 03:18:12 PM
Quote from: Danish on February 21, 2008, 03:26:39 AM
Who runs clean oil through a dirty filter?

The oil filter is only dirty on one side if it's working right.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on March 01, 2008, 06:35:57 PM
Quote from: r0tor on March 01, 2008, 10:36:19 AM
The ultimate problem is getting it from the drain pan is that one sample you might get a blob of oil pan sludge in and the next time you won't.  Ultimately everything thats in the drain pan came from your engine, but if your getting various amount of concentrated junk in a sample its hard to draw a real conclusion.  With the small sample size, just a few drops of the concentrated goop that we all know lines our oil pans can throw results off.

Secret Chimp asked why his week old oil looks the same as his 3500 mile oil did.  Its because theres junk in the system that builds up and the dispersants in the new oil break some of it down and suspend it in the oil.  The same junk causing this is the same junk that could offset your trends by large amounts.

Huh, good stuff.  I guess then that if you want to use UOA, to take the results with a grain of salt and still stick to your owner's manual guidelines.  I will modify the original post with that info.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on March 01, 2008, 10:12:52 PM
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: r0tor on March 02, 2008, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: R-inge on March 01, 2008, 06:35:57 PM
Huh, good stuff.  I guess then that if you want to use UOA, to take the results with a grain of salt

yup, not saying they are completely worthless, but do need some sanity checking...
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on March 23, 2008, 12:46:00 PM
Ok I'm a cop not a mechanic so my question may be stupid so be nice!
How come if you don't need to change your oil every 3000 miles that when I do change it at 3000 the car runs smoother has a little more pep and gets slightly better gas mileage? 
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Danish on March 23, 2008, 12:51:20 PM
Quote from: rohan on March 23, 2008, 12:46:00 PM
Ok I'm a cop not a mechanic so my question may be stupid so be nice!
How come if you don't need to change your oil every 3000 miles that when I do change it at 3000 the car runs smoother has a little more pep and gets slightly better gas mileage? 

Honestly, that whole sensation might be a figment of your imagination
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on March 23, 2008, 12:52:30 PM
Quote from: rohan on March 23, 2008, 12:46:00 PM
Ok I'm a cop not a mechanic so my question may be stupid so be nice!
How come if you don't need to change your oil every 3000 miles that when I do change it at 3000 the car runs smoother has a little more pep and gets slightly better gas mileage? 

You should see how much better it runs after a 5000, 10000 and 20000 mile oil change. You know, be really scientific about it.  :lol:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on March 23, 2008, 12:53:47 PM
Quote from: Danish on March 23, 2008, 12:51:20 PM
Honestly, that whole sensation might be a figment of your imagination
That's not even remotely possible because cops have no imagination I've been told.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Danish on March 23, 2008, 12:57:38 PM
Quote from: rohan on March 23, 2008, 12:53:47 PM
That's not even remotely possible because cops have no imagination I've been told.

They do make things up all the time though :lol:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on March 23, 2008, 01:04:46 PM
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/rohowssgt/complain1.gif)






(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/rohowssgt/twofinger1.gif)
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on March 23, 2008, 01:05:56 PM
But seriously I have the written proof in front of me for the mileage with my fill ups the other stuff could be inmy mind.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: CALL_911 on March 23, 2008, 01:58:40 PM
Quote from: Danish on March 23, 2008, 12:57:38 PM
They do make things up all the time though :lol:
:lol:

Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: The Pirate on March 23, 2008, 04:06:25 PM
Quote from: rohan on March 23, 2008, 12:46:00 PM
Ok I'm a cop not a mechanic so my question may be stupid so be nice!
How come if you don't need to change your oil every 3000 miles that when I do change it at 3000 the car runs smoother has a little more pep and gets slightly better gas mileage? 


I swear I've noticed the same thing...
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on March 23, 2008, 10:07:15 PM
So are we talking about a police cruiser or a personal vehicle?

To me what you're doesn't make sense because oils will tend to thin out before they thicken, but then I don't understand all aspects of that end of things.  All I would say is that even if you get slightly improved fuel economy (let's say a couple of percent) I'd think that the extra cost of the oil change would counter any savings.

Further, I think that you are best off following the manufacturer's recommendation, not just some arbitrary number.  UOAs can help to determine for you whether that is providing enough protection, but those should also be taken with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Soup DeVille on March 23, 2008, 10:11:08 PM
Quote from: rohan on March 23, 2008, 01:05:56 PM
But seriously I have the written proof in front of me for the mileage with my fill ups the other stuff could be inmy mind.

I would bet you get your air cleaner either replaced or blown out at the same time as well?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on March 23, 2008, 11:15:02 PM
Quote from: R-inge on March 23, 2008, 10:07:15 PM
So are we talking about a police cruiser or a personal vehicle?

Personal vehicle is what he was talking about.  And I have always thought the same thing, they do seem to run just a little better on a new oil change.  And, I also change my oil every 3k, and no amount of convincing will make me change my mind.  I have no arguement for or against it, just how I feel.  You can not go wrong with clean oil and filter.  Unless, of course, there is evidence to the contrary?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Byteme on March 24, 2008, 02:15:02 PM
Quote from: hounddog on March 23, 2008, 11:15:02 PM
Personal vehicle is what he was talking about.  And I have always thought the same thing, they do seem to run just a little better on a new oil change.  And, I also change my oil every 3k, and no amount of convincing will make me change my mind.  I have no arguement for or against it, just how I feel.  You can not go wrong with clean oil and filter.  Unless, of course, there is evidence to the contrary?

I think it is the placebo effect.  I get the same feeling after I clean my cars inside and out.  They just seem to run better.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: BimmerM3 on March 24, 2008, 02:27:19 PM
I agree that it's probably a placebo effect, but IMHO, better safe than sorry. An oil change with dino oil done by me costs less than $15. I recently switched to Mobil 1, but when I used dino I would change every 3000. Now I go every 5000 miles.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Ron From Regina on March 24, 2008, 03:07:43 PM
For a lot less than the cost of a tank of gas, its good insurance.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Champ on March 24, 2008, 03:29:48 PM
I wish, oil change in the Viggen is $35ish and the motorcycle is $40....

Doing it myself.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on March 24, 2008, 05:35:05 PM
Well, I think I presented some good reasons not to change your oil that frequently if you don't need to.  One is waste.  The other is long-term cost.  If you "Feel" like it's the best thing to do, great.  I just hope you put more thought into other decisions...
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Champ on March 24, 2008, 10:20:17 PM
Quote from: R-inge on March 24, 2008, 05:35:05 PM
Well, I think I presented some good reasons not to change your oil that frequently if you don't need to.  One is waste.  The other is long-term cost.  If you "Feel" like it's the best thing to do, great.  I just hope you put more thought into other decisions...
Agree.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on March 25, 2008, 12:41:57 PM
Quote from: Champ on March 24, 2008, 10:20:17 PM
Agree.

Btw, that wasn't aimed at you, even though it came after your post.   =)
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: CALL_911 on March 25, 2008, 07:10:15 PM
I have a question, R-Inge and everyone else.

BMW has a stupid, absolutely moronic system of computerized oil checking. No dipstick. The car's recommended oil change intervals are at 15,000 miles. Lately, my Dad and my Mom (when she drives the car) have been telling me that the oil change warning has been coming up. I went into iDrive and checked, and it said the oil level is fine. The warning still comes up for them. This car only has 6700 miles on it. What gives?

Oh, and I have every intention of writing to BMW on my Dad's behalf (not that he cares...), saying that the omission of a dipstick is absolutely boneheaded.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on March 25, 2008, 08:19:40 PM
I don't know much about the BMW system, but it could be that your parents are confusing the oil level warning with a different warning...

Either way, if the warning light comes on the whole point is to take it to the dealer ASAP to deal with it.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: CALL_911 on March 25, 2008, 08:22:55 PM
Quote from: R-inge on March 25, 2008, 08:19:40 PM
I don't know much about the BMW system, but it could be that your parents are confusing the oil level warning with a different warning...

Either way, if the warning light comes on the whole point is to take it to the dealer ASAP to deal with it.

Apparently it even flashed on the iDrive screen that "Oil Level is Low". But that's very odd, considering oil level was fine when I checked (also through the damn computer. Don't get me started on the whole dipstick thing), and the car is far below it's oil change interval.

In any case, my Dad's taking it to the dealer some time this week.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hotrodalex on March 25, 2008, 08:23:42 PM
The BMW system is dumb (this coming from a BMW fan) I have no clue why they don't have a dipstick anymore, it just makes things more confusing for the owners.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: CALL_911 on March 25, 2008, 08:25:15 PM
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 25, 2008, 08:23:42 PM
The BMW system is dumb (this coming from a BMW fan) I have no clue why they don't have a dipstick anymore, it just makes things more confusing for the owners.

Exactly. How the hell do I know if the goddamn computer is reading correctly?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on March 25, 2008, 08:54:37 PM
New oil is definitely a placebo affect. If you went from a 30W to a 0W-20, I could believe it, but staying with the same viscosity oil and assuming no great amount of contamination or heat damage to alter viscosity? I don't see how it's physically possible.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Secret Chimp on March 25, 2008, 08:58:52 PM
Quote from: CALL_911 on March 25, 2008, 08:25:15 PM
Exactly. How the hell do I know if the goddamn computer is reading correctly?

You take it to the dealer and find out.

Dolla dolla bill, y'all :P
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Soup DeVille on March 25, 2008, 09:17:05 PM
Quote from: CALL_911 on March 25, 2008, 08:25:15 PM
Exactly. How the hell do I know if the goddamn computer is reading correctly?

The "change your oil" message is based on several factors including average throttle position, thousands of revolutions, and the conductivity of the oil.

It is not related to the oil level at all: that's an entirely different thing.

Oil loss is not oil contimanation or breakdown.

(Yes, a lot of it is just the Germanic love of complexity for its own sake)
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: CALL_911 on March 25, 2008, 09:21:36 PM
The damn thing is saying that everything is okay on that diagnostic thing on iDrive, though!

Hold on, I'll get a picture.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Soup DeVille on March 25, 2008, 09:22:00 PM
Quote from: GoCougs on March 25, 2008, 08:54:37 PM
New oil is definitely a placebo affect. If you went from a 30W to a 0W-20, I could believe it, but staying with the same viscosity oil and assuming no great amount of contamination or heat damage to alter viscosity? I don't see how it's physically possible.

It's possible that as the filter traps more and more crap, it becomes more restrictive, and thus it takes more power to maintain oil poressure.

But that seems like a stretch to me too.

I'm still betting that the change in mileage comes from a clean air cleaner, not clean oil.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: The Pirate on March 25, 2008, 09:35:55 PM
Quote from: GoCougs on March 25, 2008, 08:54:37 PM
New oil is definitely a placebo affect. If you went from a 30W to a 0W-20, I could believe it, but staying with the same viscosity oil and assuming no great amount of contamination or heat damage to alter viscosity? I don't see how it's physically possible.

No, I agree, it's all but impossible.  But still, my mind messes with me...
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: CALL_911 on March 25, 2008, 09:46:08 PM
Oddly enough, the warning didn't come up. Maybe my parents are bullshitting me....
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Secret Chimp on March 27, 2008, 02:22:13 PM
I love how your BMW's motor picture is almost the same as the one my Honda has, NEITHER OF WHICH HAVE A BIG FAN ON THE FRONT OR A BIG AIR CLEANER ON THE TOP! Lawl.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: CALL_911 on March 27, 2008, 02:25:55 PM
Quote from: Secret Chimp on March 27, 2008, 02:22:13 PM
I love how your BMW's motor picture is almost the same as the one my Honda has, NEITHER OF WHICH HAVE A BIG FAN ON THE FRONT OR A BIG AIR CLEANER ON THE TOP! Lawl.

Actually, your Honda doesn't have all that. The BMW has a submarine for an engine. That picture is of a submarine. God, you're a n00b. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on June 07, 2008, 03:53:27 AM
So here's the question I thought I'ld try the 7500 miles the Durango book recommends for normal duty and I had the dealership do the oil change so that if anything happened if I followed their recommendation there might be something they could do to help me - the used Castrol 5-20 and a Fram filter.  At 3,484 miles I had to fill up and checked the oil like I always do- I always fill it before the wife goes back to the hospital so I can check the oil because I don't trust her to do it- it was low and needed almost a full quart.  It was fine at around 3,000.  Now I've got about 4,800 on the same batch and I had to add almost another full quart -it's totally black looking and it smells like it's burned and has a gritty feel to it.  I'm getting it changed in the morning and that's the end of following the manufacturers recommended interval for me - back to every 3,000.  I'm too scared to I'm going to burn up the engine by going that long between services. 

My question is why would it do that- my wife drives it mostly to and from Ann Arbor about 2 hours or so away and takes the bus from her apartment there to the hospital everyday and then drives it back home.  It hardly ever sees any severe duty like towing or city driving but it does see a really tiny amount.  And once or twice a week I drive it to my work about 35 minutes away -It seems like it's exactly the opposite of what you said about following the manuals recommdations- like it was fine until it got to 3,000 and then it just turned black and started "going away" -What'ld I do wrong?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 07, 2008, 08:38:43 AM
Quote from: rohan on June 07, 2008, 03:53:27 AM
So here's the question I thought I'ld try the 7500 miles the Durango book recommends for normal duty and I had the dealership do the oil change so that if anything happened if I followed their recommendation there might be something they could do to help me - the used Castrol 5-20 and a Fram filter.  At 3,484 miles I had to fill up and checked the oil like I always do- I always fill it before the wife goes back to the hospital so I can check the oil because I don't trust her to do it- it was low and needed almost a full quart.  It was fine at around 3,000.  Now I've got about 4,800 on the same batch and I had to add almost another full quart -it's totally black looking and it smells like it's burned and has a gritty feel to it.  I'm getting it changed in the morning and that's the end of following the manufacturers recommended interval for me - back to every 3,000.  I'm too scared to I'm going to burn up the engine by going that long between services. 

My question is why would it do that- my wife drives it mostly to and from Ann Arbor about 2 hours or so away and takes the bus from her apartment there to the hospital everyday and then drives it back home.  It hardly ever sees any severe duty like towing or city driving but it does see a really tiny amount.  And once or twice a week I drive it to my work about 35 minutes away -It seems like it's exactly the opposite of what you said about following the manuals recommdations- like it was fine until it got to 3,000 and then it just turned black and started "going away" -What'ld I do wrong?

I've never been to Michigan, so forgive this naive question, but are there lots of hills on the route your wife takes?  Sustained higher RPMs and engine braking can cause oil consumption to rise.

If you really want to know if that oil is toast, go to blackstonelabs.com and get a test kit, collect a sample, and mail it to them.  Pay the extry $10 for a TBN "Total Base Number" reading, which tells you how much effective additive is remaining.  Between these two you can get an idea of whether or not this is the right interval for you.

Also, many owner's manuals list a different oil change interval for "severe" service; read that carefully to determine whether or not your vehicle falls into that category.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: 280Z Turbo on June 14, 2008, 08:33:03 PM
NEVER buy a Fram filter ever again. They are shit. I've heard of engines getting ruined by these things.

http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html#fram-ph8a

This filter cartridge has a small outside diameter with a rather low filter element surface area (193 sqin), and features cardboard end caps that are glued in place. The rubber anti-drainback valve seals the rough metal backplate to the cardboard end cap and easily leaks, causing dirty oil to drain back into the pan. If you have a noisy valve train at startup, this filter is likely the cause. The bypass valves are plastic and are sometimes not molded correctly, which allows them to leak. The backplate has smaller and fewer oil inlet holes, which may restrict flow.
The telltale signs for a Fram Extra Guard are: It has 8 small holes for the oil inlet and a thin, cheap looking backplate, and is currently stamped with a "2Y". There are 5 very small crimps holding the gasket in place. If you look into the center hole all the way to the top of the filter, you will see a kind of "button" in the end cap of the cartridge (which looks like it's made of metal from there). This is the plastic bypass valve.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 14, 2008, 09:34:40 PM
I have to agree.  Every time someone proudly tells me they "only use Fram filters" I just want to drop to one knee and weep.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Secret Chimp on June 14, 2008, 10:11:16 PM
I used Purolator PureOne filters on my Accord. Have I sinned grievously?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: The Pirate on June 14, 2008, 10:18:02 PM
I used to use Fram oil filters, when I had my first car.  I read bad things some bad things (similar to what 280Z posted above) and haven't used them since.  I think I bought the Purolator ones after that, too.  I used OEM ones with my Civic (surprisingly cheap, and I buy the crush washers at the same time).

I've been buying Bosch ones for the Proteg?.  I suppose I could start hitting up the dealer though.  Closest Mazda dealer used to be 70 miles away, that changed when I moved up here.  There's one just down the road from where I work, and it's on the way home, actually.

Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 14, 2008, 10:30:19 PM
Quote from: Secret Chimp on June 14, 2008, 10:11:16 PM
I used Purolator PureOne filters on my Accord. Have I sinned grievously?

No, those are ok.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on June 15, 2008, 08:42:54 AM
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on June 14, 2008, 08:33:03 PM
NEVER buy a Fram filter ever again. They are shit. I've heard of engines getting ruined by these things.

Like I said the Dodge dealership put it on- I don't do oil changes because if they screw it up they pay for it but if I screw it up I pay for it.  It's a no brainer.

By the way the roads she drives to UofM is I-94 and she says she goes about 75 and it's slightly hilly but not "hilly" if you know.  It's just your standard duty highway and a little bit around Ann Arbor.  When I took it back to the dealership-  which by the way only charges $5 if you bought the vehicle from them- the mechanic asked why I waited so long to ge t it changed I told him I didn't even go the recommended 7500 miles and he said- now this is what he said not me "oh shit don't ever go 7500 miles without changing it- especially in a v8 you'll just end up tearing it up- you should change it around 3,000 but definately before 4,500."  When I asked him why he told me that they just won't go that far.  I didn't ask him any more detailed questions than that.  But in fairness to your thread they guy is older- maybe 50-55.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 15, 2008, 12:33:43 PM
Quote from: rohan on June 15, 2008, 08:42:54 AM
Like I said the Dodge dealership put it on- I don't do oil changes because if they screw it up they pay for it but if I screw it up I pay for it.  It's a no brainer.

By the way the roads she drives to UofM is I-94 and she says she goes about 75 and it's slightly hilly but not "hilly" if you know.  It's just your standard duty highway and a little bit around Ann Arbor.  When I took it back to the dealership-  which by the way only charges $5 if you bought the vehicle from them- the mechanic asked why I waited so long to ge t it changed I told him I didn't even go the recommended 7500 miles and he said- now this is what he said not me "oh shit don't ever go 7500 miles without changing it- especially in a v8 you'll just end up tearing it up- you should change it around 3,000 but definately before 4,500."  When I asked him why he told me that they just won't go that far.  I didn't ask him any more detailed questions than that.  But in fairness to your thread they guy is older- maybe 50-55.

Being older means nothing in this case.  The reason this 3000mi oil change thing has been perpetuated for so long is because a lot of old salts absolutely refuse to change their ways, regardless of the information given them.  But if you feel more comfortable doing what he suggests I certainly won't blame you!
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 15, 2008, 12:36:41 PM
Like I've said over and over and over again, if you really want to know what your oil is like when you change it get a UOA.  It can tell you tons about how much wear is occurring, how worn out the oil is, etc.  You made a point which I would like you to think about; if you change the oil and something goes wrong it's on you.  If they mess up it's on them.  Same deal with the manufacturer recommended oil change intervals.  READ your owner's manual and figure out if your vehicle falls under the severe service category.  If so, follow their severe service recommendations.  If not, follow their alternate recommendations.  It's not rocket science.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on June 15, 2008, 12:51:56 PM
Never said it was rocket science- just thought you might like to know what we're being told by dealership mechanics.  :huh:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on June 15, 2008, 01:01:57 PM
There's no way an automaker would make such recommendations without legions of data, and since most automakers have been using 7,500 mile intervals for a while, if there was a problem it would have come to light by now.

Engines, oil, and filter are many many many times better today than back when the 3,000 change interval really was important. I have/had 250,000 miles on two vehicles and I've never not followed the recommended interval (5,000 mile on one, 7,500 miles on the other), and they ran like tops and used no oil.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 15, 2008, 03:26:11 PM
Quote from: rohan on June 15, 2008, 12:51:56 PM
Never said it was rocket science- just thought you might like to know what we're being told by dealership mechanics.  :huh:

I'm a dealership mechanic, last time I checked.  I'm just explaining to you why he's saying what he's saying, and why I think he's wrong.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on June 22, 2008, 07:39:01 AM
Quote from: R-inge on June 15, 2008, 03:26:11 PM
I'm a dealership mechanic, last time I checked.  I'm just explaining to you why he's saying what he's saying, and why I think he's wrong.
I know this is going to come of dickish- and I'm sorry because I don't know anyother way to ask it- but just because you're a dealership mechanic doesn't mean that your view is the same as all the rest of them especially the older guys.  And you contradicted yourself- first you said his age didn't mean anything in this topic and then you siad old salts refuse to change their thinking.  Liek I said - I didn't mean for it sound so dickish and I'm not trying to  be hostile I'm just trying to let you know what we're being told away from your dealership and asking you for your opinion.  I'ld forgotten about the test you suggested.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 23, 2008, 11:30:30 AM
Quote from: rohan on June 22, 2008, 07:39:01 AM
I know this is going to come of dickish- and I'm sorry because I don't know anyother way to ask it- but just because you're a dealership mechanic doesn't mean that your view is the same as all the rest of them especially the older guys.  And you contradicted yourself- first you said his age didn't mean anything in this topic and then you siad old salts refuse to change their thinking.  Liek I said - I didn't mean for it sound so dickish and I'm not trying to  be hostile I'm just trying to let you know what we're being told away from your dealership and asking you for your opinion.  I'ld forgotten about the test you suggested.

Look, I'm not going to turn this thread into an argument of who's right, me or your own mechanic.  I'm just saying that if you think that just because someone has a lot of years means that he knows everything about every aspect of the automobile you're wrong.  I know a few guys who would be clueless outside of their own brand or specialty.

My point is that if anything his age puts him in a category of techs who have done it their own way for so long that they absolutely refuse to change their minds regardless of the info presented to them.

I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on June 29, 2008, 11:38:51 AM
Quote from: R-inge on June 23, 2008, 11:30:30 AM
Look, I'm not going to turn this thread into an argument of who's right, me or your own mechanic.  I'm just saying that if you think that just because someone has a lot of years means that he knows everything about every aspect of the automobile you're wrong.  I know a few guys who would be clueless outside of their own brand or specialty.

My point is that if anything his age puts him in a category of techs who have done it their own way for so long that they absolutely refuse to change their minds regardless of the info presented to them.

I'll leave it at that.
That wasn't what I was saying and I said what I was saying- you got seemingly upset because I mentioned what the mechanic at MY local dealership told me- and continued to be upset (it seems) even though I told you I was only telling you what other mechanics were saying.  You wrote this "Being older means nothing in this case.  The reason this 3000mi oil change thing has been perpetuated for so long is because a lot of old salts absolutely refuse to change their ways, regardless of the information given them. " and then you proceed to write this "My point is that if anything his age puts him in a category of techs who have done it their own way for so long that they absolutely refuse to change their minds regardless of the info presented to them."  Which is what I was trying to say when I wrote this "I didn't ask him any more detailed questions than that.  But in fairness to your thread they guy is older- maybe 50-55." It's not an effort to discredit you or your opinion in fact I even wrote that I wanted your opinion. 
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 29, 2008, 01:43:04 PM
Quote from: rohan on June 29, 2008, 11:38:51 AM
That wasn't what I was saying and I said what I was saying- you got seemingly upset because I mentioned what the mechanic at MY local dealership told me- and continued to be upset (it seems) even though I told you I was only telling you what other mechanics were saying.  You wrote this "Being older means nothing in this case.  The reason this 3000mi oil change thing has been perpetuated for so long is because a lot of old salts absolutely refuse to change their ways, regardless of the information given them. " and then you proceed to write this "My point is that if anything his age puts him in a category of techs who have done it their own way for so long that they absolutely refuse to change their minds regardless of the info presented to them."  Which is what I was trying to say when I wrote this "I didn't ask him any more detailed questions than that.  But in fairness to your thread they guy is older- maybe 50-55." It's not an effort to discredit you or your opinion in fact I even wrote that I wanted your opinion. 

I apologize for the misunderstanding then, and I appreciate your respectful clarification of the matter.  Sorry! :lol:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on November 10, 2008, 06:18:36 PM
Trying the 15,000 mobile 1 in my Durango with the extended life filter.  I figure it has to work because thats what BMW is using, so I thought I would try it.  Again.  Last time was in the Ram 2500.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on December 01, 2008, 04:18:49 PM
Quote from: hounddog on November 10, 2008, 06:18:36 PM
Trying the 15,000 mobile 1 in my Durango with the extended life filter.  I figure it has to work because thats what BMW is using, so I thought I would try it.  Again.  Last time was in the Ram 2500.

Do us a huge service and send a sample out for analysis if you can without too much trouble, please.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on December 11, 2008, 08:42:47 PM
I will if I remember.  And, I assume you mean at the end of the 15,000?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on December 12, 2008, 07:32:21 PM
Quote from: hounddog on December 11, 2008, 08:42:47 PM
I will if I remember.  And, I assume you mean at the end of the 15,000?

Yes please.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/)
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: SVT_Power on May 31, 2009, 03:04:49 PM
Do you have a preferred brand of synthetic oil?

It seems like most places agree amsoil is the best including guys on the contour boards who've tried different synthetic oils for their cars. But it's just about impossible to find around here and I'm not gonna go out of my way to get some. I have royal purple in my car right now and I had only heard good things until recently when someone claimed all of royal purple's claims had been proven wrong.

I mean are we just nitpicking between synthetic oils or what?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on May 31, 2009, 03:06:20 PM
I only put Mobil 1 in the Swift, because the Swift is #1.  :praise:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on May 31, 2009, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: SVT_Power on May 31, 2009, 03:04:49 PM
Do you have a preferred brand of synthetic oil?

It seems like most places agree amsoil is the best including guys on the contour boards who've tried different synthetic oils for their cars. But it's just about impossible to find around here and I'm not gonna go out of my way to get some. I have royal purple in my car right now and I had only heard good things until recently when someone claimed all of royal purple's claims had been proven wrong.

I mean are we just nitpicking between synthetic oils or what?

I have had good luck with Valvoline Synpower, but really if you want to use synthetic oil any one of them is good.  I just personally noticed that I had to add maybe .5qt Mobil 1 when I used it over a 3000mi oil change interval, and some guys who were running analysis on their oil found high wear metals using Mobil, but not others such as Castrol Syntec or Valvoline Synpower.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on May 31, 2009, 03:53:43 PM
Quote from: R-inge on May 31, 2009, 03:48:44 PM
I have had good luck with Valvoline Synpower, but really if you want to use synthetic oil any one of them is good.  I just personally noticed that I had to add maybe .5qt Mobil 1 when I used it over a 3000mi oil change interval, and some guys who were running analysis on their oil found high wear metals using Mobil, but not others such as Castrol Syntec or Valvoline Synpower.

I put Synpower gear l00b in the Swift's transaxle, and the sychros work much more smoothly (when I use them, anyway).
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Minpin on May 31, 2009, 03:59:13 PM
Quote from: R-inge on December 12, 2008, 07:32:21 PM
Yes please.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/)

We use something like this for our boats oil. It can tell you if something is going to fail before it happens. Pretty useful. You should give it a whirl on your boat as well, mr. hounddoggystyle.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on May 31, 2009, 04:03:38 PM
Quote from: NACar on May 31, 2009, 03:53:43 PM
I put Synpower gear l00b in the Swift's transaxle, and the sychros work much more smoothly (when I use them, anyway).

Ditto.  Switched from some pricey Redline synthetic gear oil to Synpower in the same weight, and my box works better as well as getting rid of a 3-4 grind that occasionally reared its head at highway speeds.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Secret Chimp on June 05, 2009, 08:31:46 PM
Riddle me this: why is it that after around 2,500 miles my car only seems to go through maybe a quarter of a quart of oil (it goes down so slowly I don't bother adding any until it gets to that point) and by the time I decide to add that quarter of a quart back, it starts to go through a quarter or less-ish of a quart maybe every two weeks or so? Is the oil I'm using losing viscosity and getting burned off by the time it's reaching that age or something, or am I just nuts? This is with Rotella 5W-40.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on June 06, 2009, 04:42:09 AM
You don't have a diesel engine. You should cut off your cat.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on June 06, 2009, 08:49:46 AM
I'm going to go with the latter - it's a matter of perception.

I've never heard of this oil, but most any modern vehicle with a modern petro-based oil will have 7,500 - 10,000 mile oil change intervals; meaning, without significant contamination and abuse (overheating) would the oil be shot by 2,500 miles.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 11, 2009, 01:25:32 PM
Quote from: GoCougs on June 06, 2009, 08:49:46 AM
I'm going to go with the latter - it's a matter of perception.

I've never heard of this oil, but most any modern vehicle with a modern petro-based oil will have 7,500 - 10,000 mile oil change intervals; meaning, without significant contamination and abuse (overheating) would the oil be shot by 2,500 miles.

RotellaT 5w-40 is a diesel oil, synthetic I believe, and it also happens to have a very decent additive pack according to those who seem to know something about oil.  I doubt highly that it's too thin.  If anything its hot viscosity is higher than specified by your manual (but probably still fine for the car). 

Chimp, I would monitor how much oil you add every 1000mi; if it's excessive (like, 1qt or more every 1000mi) you can try another brand of oil if you want, but most likely you have an oil consumption issue IMO.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 11, 2009, 01:26:30 PM
Quote from: NACar on June 06, 2009, 04:42:09 AM
You don't have a diesel engine. You should cut off your cat.

It's ok to use diesel oil.  Most of them are API SM anyway, which is supposed to be fine for your cats.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on June 15, 2009, 10:10:12 PM
Quote from: hounddog on November 10, 2008, 06:18:36 PM
Trying the 15,000 mobile 1 in my Durango with the extended life filter.  I figure it has to work because thats what BMW is using, so I thought I would try it.  Again.  Last time was in the Ram 2500.

Quote from: R-inge on December 01, 2008, 04:18:49 PM
Do us a huge service and send a sample out for analysis if you can without too much trouble, please.

I have about 9,000 miles on this oil and filter now.  I had to add about 3/4 of a quart today, is that normal for syn?    

I know, this is going to be hardly techinical, but the oil has a "smoked" smell to it and feels ever so slightly gritty.  Thinking I will only go another 3,000, or less depending on how it seems when I check it.  And, I have been checking it every time I fill up.  It is a pain, but that was how I found the low-ness.  

Questions; At what point should the Durango inform me that the oil level is low?  I would have imagined that it would inform me after 1/2 quart low.  

Also, how will adding oil due to low levels affect the later analysis?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 16, 2009, 08:41:51 AM
Quote from: hounddog on June 15, 2009, 10:10:12 PM
I have about 9,000 miles on this oil and filter now.  I had to add about 3/4 of a quart today, is that normal for syn?   

I know, this is going to be hardly techinical, but the oil has a "smoked" smell to it and feels ever so slightly gritty.  Thinking I will only go another 3,000, or less depending on how it seems when I check it.  And, I have been checking it every time I fill up.  It is a pain, but that was how I found the low-ness. 

Questions; At what point should the Durango inform me that the oil level is low?  I would have imagined that it would inform me after 1/2 quart low. 

Also, how will adding oil due to low levels affect the later analysis?

Isn't the max interval on your truck somewhat lower?  I don't know if I impress this hard enough or not, but really the owner's manual should be your final authority on oil change intervals, IMO, not advertising from Mobil.  If I were you I'd stop where you're at and take a sample.  Blackstone Labs has a section in the form you fill out with the sample to tell them how much "make-up" oil you added to keep it at the normal level.  That will allow them to factor that into the results.

As for having to add some oil... Mobil seems to burn off slightly more on some engines than other oils.  I've had to add up to .5 over 3k miles in my car, but right now I'm running Valvoline SynPower and I haven't had any oil loss.  You might want to consider that brand in the future, I've read good things about them.  Take it with a grain of salt as always.

Just to clarify, I am not a lubricants engineer obviously, but again I'd stop with your current mileage and reevaluate future OCIs based on the recommened intervals in your owner's manual. :)
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on June 16, 2009, 04:33:02 PM
Thanks.

"Isn't the max interval on your truck somewhat lower?"

Yes, 7,550 for standard use.  However, I am trying out the "Extended Life" Mobile 1 and the proper Mobil 1 filter.  SUPPOSEDLY, if damage occurs to the engine as a result of using this extended life oil and filter they will make it right.  Not sure how much of a guarantee that is, though.  :lol:

I will send for whatever package I need to use for the testing. 
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on June 16, 2009, 04:36:26 PM
Quote from: R-inge on December 01, 2008, 04:18:49 PM
Do us a huge service and send a sample out for analysis if you can without too much trouble, please.
Looking at the site, which test should I request?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: The Pirate on June 16, 2009, 04:50:05 PM
Quote from: hounddog on June 16, 2009, 04:36:26 PM
Looking at the site, which test should I request?

Who are you going to be using for the analysis?

I've heard good things about this outfit (and they are independent, so minimal bias), and will be sending my oil there very shortly.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/standard_analysis.html
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on June 16, 2009, 05:01:47 PM
Blackstone, but they have several tests listed.  I am just trying to find out which one I should use.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: The Pirate on June 16, 2009, 05:07:09 PM
Quote from: hounddog on June 16, 2009, 05:01:47 PM
Blackstone, but they have several tests listed.  I am just trying to find out which one I should use.

I would think the standard test with a TBN would suffice.  That's going to tell you how long you should be going between oil changes, and make you aware of any significant issues.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on June 16, 2009, 05:08:32 PM
Ok, thanks.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Minpin on June 16, 2009, 05:17:07 PM
I've mentioned this before, but Hounddog, do this on your boat too. It's even more useful, imo, since a major repair on a boat engine would be much more costly than your truck.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on June 16, 2009, 05:21:38 PM
Quote from: The Pirate on June 16, 2009, 05:07:09 PM
I would think the standard test with a TBN would suffice.  That's going to tell you how long you should be going between oil changes, and make you aware of any significant issues.

Agreed.  Paying the extra for a TBN tells you how much of the additive package is left.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on July 24, 2009, 10:10:32 AM
Here is some more oil information.
"The Motor Oil Bible". Not a bad read for a rainy Friday afternoon.

http://www.zag.si/~jank/public/bmw/oil_bible.pdf
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on July 24, 2009, 10:26:52 AM
This bible is a mind blow.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: giant_mtb on July 24, 2009, 10:44:56 AM
Quote from: NACar on July 24, 2009, 10:10:32 AM
Here is some more oil information.
"The Motor Oil Bible". Not a bad read for a rainy Friday afternoon.

http://www.zag.si/~jank/public/bmw/oil_bible.pdf

Reading it makes me feel like this:  :hammerhead:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on July 24, 2009, 12:03:51 PM
Don't agree with him in the least regarding synthetics; I don't think he made the case for materially longer engine life, more performance or more MPG with synthetics.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on July 24, 2009, 12:09:53 PM
Quote from: GoCougs on July 24, 2009, 12:03:51 PM
Don't agree with him in the least regarding synthetics; I don't think he made the case for materially longer engine life, more performance or more MPG with synthetics.

He does throw in a bit of unsubstantiated opinion into the mix, but that's easy to read through.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: r0tor on July 24, 2009, 12:40:43 PM
i perfer this as its actually useful... http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136052
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on July 24, 2009, 12:47:10 PM
Quote from: r0tor on July 24, 2009, 12:40:43 PM
i perfer this as its actually useful... http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136052

Yeah that is a good one.  I have it linked up in the OP.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on July 24, 2009, 12:50:12 PM
Quote from: NACar on July 24, 2009, 12:09:53 PM
He does throw in a bit of unsubstantiated opinion into the mix, but that's easy to read through.

I should have stated that I do agree with him on the longer oil change interval for synthetics, which can be an advantage. The problem there is that for example my Accord manual specifically states the factory-specified interval must be followed for both dino and synthetic (which implies that if there's an engine problem in the warranty period one can run into problem if the oil change interval was not followed).
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on July 24, 2009, 12:52:36 PM
Quote from: GoCougs on July 24, 2009, 12:50:12 PM
I should have stated that I do agree with him on the longer oil change interval for synthetics, which can be an advantage. The problem there is that for example my Accord manual specifically states the factory-specified interval must be followed for both dino and synthetic (which implies that if there's an engine problem in the warranty period one can run into problem if the oil change interval was not followed).

The issue, I think, is that it doesn't matter what your base stock is, ultimately it's the additive package that "wears out" as far as I can tell.  (Not a lubricants engineer speaking, so take it with a grain of salt).  So unless you're running that Long Life oil or something you're not likely at any significant advantage in terms of length of OCI using a synthetic.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on July 24, 2009, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: R-inge on July 24, 2009, 12:52:36 PM
The issue, I think, is that it doesn't matter what your base stock is, ultimately it's the additive package that "wears out" as far as I can tell.  (Not a lubricants engineer speaking, so take it with a grain of salt).  So unless you're running that Long Life oil or something you're not likely at any significant advantage in terms of length of OCI using a synthetic.

Mr. Oil Bible explains that the base stocks for conventional multi-weight oils have to start out thinner, as they rely heavily on viscosity improving additives to thicken the oil at operating temp. As the additives degrade, the oil becomes thinner and provides less protection. Synthetics do not rely on the additives to maintain their rated viscosity over time, and they naturally maintain that viscosity over a wider temperature range.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on July 24, 2009, 01:45:08 PM
Quote from: NACar on July 24, 2009, 01:07:58 PM
Mr. Oil Bible explains that the base stocks for conventional multi-weight oils have to start out thinner, as they rely heavily on viscosity improving additives to thicken the oil at operating temp. As the additives degrade, the oil becomes thinner and provides less protection. Synthetics do not rely on the additives to maintain their rated viscosity over time, and they naturally maintain that viscosity over a wider temperature range.

Ah yes, forgot about that.  Although, I don't think that's hard and fast, I'm pretty sure some synthetics have to use polymers as well for the multiviscosity effect.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on July 24, 2009, 02:26:29 PM
Quote from: r0tor on July 24, 2009, 12:40:43 PM
i perfer this as its actually useful... http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136052

Upon a quick scan I see some flaws there, too; that engine wear occurs on start up, that 5W-30 is not thinner than 10W-30 at operating temperature, and that thinner oils are "better."
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on July 24, 2009, 02:31:06 PM
Quote from: R-inge on July 24, 2009, 12:52:36 PM
The issue, I think, is that it doesn't matter what your base stock is, ultimately it's the additive package that "wears out" as far as I can tell.  (Not a lubricants engineer speaking, so take it with a grain of salt).  So unless you're running that Long Life oil or something you're not likely at any significant advantage in terms of length of OCI using a synthetic.

My hunch would also be that Honda simply hasn't tested their engines extensively on synthetic for extended OCI, since the vast majority of people don't use it (and so they can't justify the extra R&D dollars).

As it is, with dino, their OCI for the V6 Accord is ~7,500 and the I4, ~10,000 miles ("~" meaning it can vary but the goal is to use the oil life monitor). That's still pretty darned good IMO.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on July 24, 2009, 02:36:14 PM
Quote from: GoCougs on July 24, 2009, 02:26:29 PM
Upon a quick scan I see some flaws there, too; that engine wear occurs on start up, that 5W-30 is not thinner than 10W-30 at operating temperature, and that thinner oils are "better."
Why are these flaws- engines have less oil in them at start up and thinner oils are better for modern engines with tighter tolerances OEM.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on July 24, 2009, 02:54:34 PM
Quote from: rohan on July 24, 2009, 02:36:14 PM
Why are these flaws- engines have less oil in them at start up and thinner oils are better for modern engines with tighter tolerances OEM.

I have to admit I was a bit biased as he starts off with credentials that sound impressive, but ultimately don't mean squat; it matters little that he is a highly paid medical doctor that owns exotic cars.

Start up: Take apart any engine that has been in use, and the bearings will have oil in them, even after sitting unused for years. As the engine starts this residual oil creates the high pressure layer for lubrication within fractions of second; within this fraction of a second of starting the oil pump is already supplying the engine with oil. If there was truly more wear on start up (which IMO implies metal-to-metal contact), engines wouldn't last more than a few thousand miles.

5W-30 vs. 10W-30: Per my viscosity charts in my machine design text, 5W-30 is a bit thinner throughout the operating temperature range than 10W-30.

Thinner oils: it seemed he advocated thinner oils across the board, independent of engine design. Thinner oils are only proper if the engine is designed for 'em as you imply. An engine designed for 20W-50 would get destroyed with 0W-20.

Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on July 24, 2009, 03:45:34 PM
sure the bearings might have oil in them but what about the cylinders?  To me that's where damage at start u p might come from along with other parts that drain.  And I wasn't really talking about 10w vs 5 w but more like 5w-20 vs 10w30.  Alot of engines now are using that because of the modern tightness of the engines.  And what engine uses 20w50?  That almost sounds like some race car oil or something
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on July 24, 2009, 03:49:01 PM
Quote from: rohan on July 24, 2009, 03:45:34 PM
sure the bearings might have oil in them but what about the cylinders?  To me that's where damage at start u p might come from along with other parts that drain.  And I wasn't really talking about 10w vs 5 w but more like 5w-20 vs 10w30.  Alot of engines now are using that because of the modern tightness of the engines.  And what engine uses 20w50?  That almost sounds like some race car oil or something


Diesels use 15w-40, and some motorcycles use heavier stuff.  Some old air cooled motors have to have 50 weight, but like you said most modern engines use much thinner stuff.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: r0tor on July 24, 2009, 03:53:52 PM
a) start-up wear is real
b) depending on the oils, at 100deg C 5W-30 and 10W-30 can be the same viscosity - check mobil 1's website
c) He advocates oil thickness based on what is needed to trip the oil systems high pressure relief valve as thats what will give you maximum flow to the bearing.  Max flow means max cooling , max stability, and max lubrication.  In most cases, this is a 30 weight oil.  Contrary to popular belief, most racing series that are on the edge are running 20-30 weight oils
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on July 24, 2009, 04:04:23 PM
Here I found this it's pretty interesting- what's 0w5 oil thick or thin?


http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/trainingcenter/082106.html
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on July 24, 2009, 04:09:45 PM
Quote from: rohan on July 24, 2009, 04:04:23 PM
Here I found this it's pretty interesting- what's 0w5 oil thick or thin?


http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/trainingcenter/082106.html

Operating temp LOL. Those drag race engines never run long enough to warm up.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on August 27, 2009, 07:41:45 AM
Updated the OLM section on page one with a caviat that I found in GM SI about distance driven on any oil fill.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: JWC on November 19, 2009, 09:38:42 AM
So, what happens when you don't change your oil?   This....

....this was a 2003 Windstar, photo taken in 2004.  The van was used by a drug rep, so it was almost all highway miles.  It was one year old when towed in with a locked up motor.  Still had the original factory installed oil filter, meaning that it had never been serviced.  The odometer was reading just over 33,000 miles.  Oil was 5w-30 synthetic blend.

(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/6001/residueoilpan.tif)

(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6058/nolof2.jpg)
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on November 19, 2009, 10:05:09 AM
The awesomeness of some people's stupidity...  :rockon:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on November 19, 2009, 10:07:29 AM
Quote from: JWC on November 19, 2009, 09:38:42 AM
So, what happens when you don't change your oil?   This....

....this was a 2003 Windstar, photo taken in 2004.  The van was used by a drug rep, so it was almost all highway miles.  It was one year old when towed in with a locked up motor.  Still had the original factory installed oil filter, meaning that it had never been serviced.  The odometer was reading just over 33,000 miles.  Oil was 5w-30 synthetic blend.

(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/6001/residueoilpan.tif)

(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6058/nolof2.jpg)

:mask:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: JWC on November 19, 2009, 10:10:53 AM
It cost the rep around 5,000 dollars...and probably his job.   Since it was a lease vehicle, he evidently felt that making money for himself was more important than stopping somewhere for 30 or 40 minutes and getting the company vehicle serviced.  I took some photos for the lease company as evidence and happened to come across them this morning while looking for photos for the auto competition.

In situations such as this, the lease company will pay for the repairs, but will charge it back to the company the vehicle is leased to.  The adjuster told me that the usual outcome is to garnish the wages of the driver until the bill is repaid, then fire them.

Anyway, I added the photos here because I thought it would be a good example of what happens when you don't change your oil regularly. 
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on November 19, 2009, 10:40:03 AM
I know someone who never changed the oil in their brand new F-150. He towed big ass trailers with it until the 4.6L Triton turned into a 4.6L boat anchor. Not sure how many miles it lasted, but I think it was over a year of hard use, anyway.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Byteme on November 19, 2009, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: rohan on July 24, 2009, 03:45:34 PM
  And what engine uses 20w50?  That almost sounds like some race car oil or something



Jaguar E-Types, 4.2L engines.  20-W-50 was/is the factory recommended lubricant.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on November 19, 2009, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: Byteme on November 19, 2009, 10:41:54 AM

Jaguar E-Types, 4.2L engines.  20-W-50 was/is the factory recommended lubricant.


Air cooled VWs too, right?  I think even the Wasserboxer liked it. 
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: JWC on November 19, 2009, 10:49:43 AM
Quote from: R-inge on November 19, 2009, 10:48:03 AM
Air cooled VWs too, right?  I think even the Wasserboxer liked it. 

Castrol 20W-50 was all I ever ran in my rebuilt VW engines, as well as all my Hondas. 

In my current engine, I'm running Rotella 30W.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: SVT_Power on April 03, 2010, 01:54:41 PM
So one guy I know runs diesel engine oil in his Subie (400hp Legacy GT). I thought about it for a little while, and kind of seems like a good idea since diesel engines are under so much more stress than gasoline engines. So is this disaster waiting to happen for that guy's engine?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on April 03, 2010, 03:12:10 PM
No, it's perfectly safe, assuming it's a good viscosity for his motor.  If he has a built motor like that I hope he'll at least send out a couple of UOAs to make sure it's working out for him.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: AutobahnSHO on April 03, 2010, 03:51:12 PM
I am really bad about oil changes. I do them probably every 5-6k miles.

I've only had one car-failure that could be caused by oil issues-
But on the SHO they said you MUST change the crankshaft/rod bearings at 100k and mine blew up on the original bearings at 172k...
So I don't blame the oil changes (or lack of) on that one.

I change the auto tranny fluid every couple years, whether there are any issues or not.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on September 26, 2011, 03:39:44 PM
Looking for a high quality, high detergent oil for the Cummins.

Went with the free-bee change that came with the purchase, but will be wanting to do quality oil in the next change.

Suggestions?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Secret Chimp on September 26, 2011, 04:12:22 PM
Quote from: hounddog on September 26, 2011, 03:39:44 PM
Looking for a high quality, high detergent oil for the Cummins.

Went with the free-bee change that came with the purchase, but will be wanting to do quality oil in the next change.

Suggestions?

Rotella synthetic is supposed to be good stuff and isn't very expensive at Wallyworld.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on September 26, 2011, 06:12:06 PM
Hmmm.  Interesting thought.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Soup DeVille on September 26, 2011, 06:15:09 PM
Quote from: R-inge on November 19, 2009, 10:48:03 AM
Air cooled VWs too, right?  I think even the Wasserboxer liked it. 

I remember being told to run straight 30 weight oil in the VWs. That "conventional wisdom" may have changed several times since.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on September 26, 2011, 08:35:41 PM
Quote from: hounddog on September 26, 2011, 03:39:44 PM
Looking for a high quality, high detergent oil for the Cummins.

Went with the free-bee change that came with the purchase, but will be wanting to do quality oil in the next change.

Suggestions?

Rotella, Valvoline's Blue stuff (forget the name) are both good choices.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on November 24, 2011, 05:59:40 PM
I just had to change the oil again at 8,400 miles.  That is twice as often as it is supposed to be done.

Is it the wear in period, or, is there possibly something wrong with the engine?  My fathers 2010 goes about 8,000 between changes before his computer tells him it is due.  Of course, his is the old 6.7 not the 800 lb-ft torque so it makes me wonder if mine has an issue.  :huh:

Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on November 25, 2011, 03:57:40 PM
Sounds perfectly normal to me.

If you're uncertain, send in to Blackstone Labs for a sampling kit, take a sample per the directions, and send it in.  They'll respond with a report that will indicate whether there are any problems whatsoever with the engine. This is a tried and true method in motorsports.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on November 26, 2011, 06:42:54 AM
Well, the oil is in the bin now, unfortunately.  I will have to wait until the next change.

It just strikes me as odd since both the manual and the dealership are telling me 7,500 between changes is what the engine is supposed to be, yet the vehicle is saying 4,000.  Who do you believe?

I have an appointment for a diagnostic on Monday, but i get the feeling they will find nothing wrong.  

I guess it really does not matter since the warranty runs for 100,000 miles, but still.  Thanks for the advice.  
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Rupert on November 27, 2011, 02:19:58 AM
Believe the truck. I imagine there is a heavy duty thing that might apply.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Galaxy on November 27, 2011, 06:01:24 AM
Shell has some pretty funky oils like their 10W 60 Helix Ultra.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: mzziaz on November 27, 2011, 09:23:00 AM
I filled my snowblower with 10w40 even though 10w30 was clearly specified. Did I fuck up?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on November 27, 2011, 09:23:59 AM
Quote from: mzziaz on November 27, 2011, 09:23:00 AM
I filled my snowblower with 10w40 even though 10w30 was clearly specified. Did I fuck up?

Probably not. 
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on November 27, 2011, 09:26:51 AM
I guess I missread your post.  I read it as, "I had to change my oil at an 8400mi interval again."

The OLM is fairly accurate, so like Rupert mentioned it's probably best to go with that.  There could be something about your driving habits or the environment around you which triggers a more aggressive response by the oil life monitor.  High humidity, cold starting temps, short trips; etc.

Quote from: hounddog on November 26, 2011, 06:42:54 AM
Well, the oil is in the bin now, unfortunately.  I will have to wait until the next change.

It just strikes me as odd since both the manual and the dealership are telling me 7,500 between changes is what the engine is supposed to be, yet the vehicle is saying 4,000.  Who do you believe?

I have an appointment for a diagnostic on Monday, but i get the feeling they will find nothing wrong. 

I guess it really does not matter since the warranty runs for 100,000 miles, but still.  Thanks for the advice. 
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on November 27, 2011, 09:33:02 AM
I also wonder if being in the break-in stage of the engine might have something to do with it. 
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Secret Chimp on November 27, 2011, 09:08:50 PM
I've been using some Mobil Super 10W-30 high mileage in the Dodge since I changed out the 15W-40 Shell stuff I had in it for a thousand miles (which was nazzzzty). I haven't had to top it up yet - I probably added about two or three quarts between May and November on the car's first oil change. Maybe I cleaned some gunk off of the oil rings?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on November 27, 2011, 09:42:31 PM
I suppose it's possible.  Those High Mileage oils have a pretty robust additive package, which might explain it.  It could also be that the Shell stuff did the actual cleaning (which is why it looked like shit).  When this car was built engine oils kinda sucked.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: giant_mtb on November 28, 2011, 04:53:26 PM
Quote from: mzziaz on November 27, 2011, 09:23:00 AM
I filled my snowblower with 10w40 even though 10w30 was clearly specified. Did I fuck up?

I'm sure that as soon as the engine's warmed up, it doesn't really care about 40 vs. 30.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on November 28, 2011, 06:44:43 PM
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 28, 2011, 04:53:26 PM
I'm sure that as soon as the engine's warmed up, it doesn't really care about 40 vs. 30.

Except that it does, since those are the viscoscities at warmed up temp.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on November 28, 2011, 08:32:41 PM
Not really...
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: mzziaz on November 29, 2011, 12:32:22 AM
Huh?

I've got the same impression Nacar does.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on November 29, 2011, 01:00:40 AM
Long story short the difference between 30 and 40 isn't that huge, and with a little engine like that which runs at constant speed you won't notice a problem IMO.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on November 29, 2011, 01:03:26 AM
Yeah, well I like long stories.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on November 29, 2011, 01:17:18 AM
Yeah, well it's late.  Do some reading on viscosity ratings.  You'll quickly realize that between brands a 30 or 40 weight can get confused in a hurry.  Take for example German Castrol 0-30.  It runs more like a 5w-40.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Rupert on November 29, 2011, 02:20:26 AM
It's just a snow blower. It should be able to take some abuse.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: mzziaz on November 29, 2011, 03:03:33 AM
Quote from: R-inge on November 29, 2011, 01:00:40 AM
Long story short the difference between 30 and 40 isnt that huge, and with a little engine like that which runs at constant speed you won't notice a problem IMO.


Little?

420 cc of Chinese fury!   :rage:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: mzziaz on November 29, 2011, 03:05:16 AM
So I can keep using 5w-40 for it?

From a logistics viewpoint it would be an advantage.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on November 29, 2011, 08:59:22 AM
I would think so.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Secret Chimp on November 30, 2011, 11:43:30 PM
Here's a hot tip - WIX filter discounts across the board thanks to Moparts.com...

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=84099
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on December 04, 2011, 11:34:28 AM
Quote from: R-inge on November 27, 2011, 09:26:51 AM
I guess I missread your post.  I read it as, "I had to change my oil at an 8400mi interval again."

The OLM is fairly accurate, so like Rupert mentioned it's probably best to go with that.  There could be something about your driving habits or the environment around you which triggers a more aggressive response by the oil life monitor.  High humidity, cold starting temps, short trips; etc.

Sorry, my fault for not being more clear.

As I suspected, nothing came as a result of the diagnostic.  :huh:

The dealership lead diesel mechanic, for lack of a better title to give him, told me that if it is break in related the interval should normalize after 10,000 miles.  He suggested I not run the idle bump this winter during breakin, even though my manual suggests it.

We shall see.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on December 04, 2011, 03:47:24 PM
Just a quick note about what looks like slight changes in viscosity..

My old Tacoma stipulated the use of 75w-90 in the manual gearbox. I took it to the local lube shop for service. Afterward on the receipt it said 80w-90 was used. I called 'em out on it and they said it was close enough (read: they didn't stock 75w-90). Sure enough, the transmission shifted like a POS; specifically, the synchros were all FUBAR which led to a lot of grinding. I took it to another shop to have the right stuff put in and problem gone. My advice is always follow the manual.

In case anyone is reading viscosity graphs, I have a comment there too. Typically they are presented in logarithmic scale on the Y axis - this accentuates differences with small numbers and un-accentuates differences with large numbers. Looking at the top graph causally says 20w-40 and 20w-50 are kissing cousins. However, looking at decimal (regular) graph, and in the colder temps, the different is huge, and will only get huger as the temp goes lower.

(http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/2937/94993635.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/94993635.png/)

Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on December 04, 2011, 04:19:36 PM
Valid stuff, thanks Cougs.  I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on January 01, 2012, 11:10:32 AM
We are looking for an oil and a transmission fluid for our patrol cars that will help cut wear and let the cars run a little longer.  Our policy has always been to get new cars every 75-85k miles but these Chargers seem to hold up better body and suspension wise but we get knocking in some at about that- we'ld like to try a couple cycles at 110k miles but can't do it with the oil we're using. 

We do lots of long distance hot runs (10-30 miles) where the car can get parked and sits at idle with lights and air running for hours.
They run for 10-20 hours per day without getting shut off (we allow our guys to let them run instead of turning them off and on which I think is a lot harder on them)
Sometimes they get started cold at the beginning of a shift and get no time to warm up and driven WOT to a call many miles away. 

We are considering Mobil 1 because it's the one BMW uses (or used it's in my car) and I don't know much about the synths.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: 850CSi on January 02, 2012, 11:21:41 PM
I went 17k between changes at one point last year.  :mask: I think the normal interval is 15k. The indie shop that I've taken my car to a couple of times told me that even with synthetic it's best to change around every 5-6k. Not sure I buy that.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on January 03, 2012, 02:39:57 PM
I know hounddog tried to use the 15k mile Mobile1 and the 15k filter but he had trouble making it to 10k miles in two of his hemi's.  I go 7500 and change it and I use Quakerstate 5w-20.  So far so good and we're still going strong with about 85k miles on the durango.  Had planned to buy a Sequoia but that went out the window with Adam being sick.  Maybe next year.  Either way I think we're gong with Mobile 1-  5w-20 because mostly I can't find anything anywhere that shows it's not living up to it's promises and all in all gets good reviews- and shorten intervals from 5k to 4k and see how they do. 
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: 280Z Turbo on January 03, 2012, 03:16:14 PM
Quote from: 850CSi on January 02, 2012, 11:21:41 PM
I went 17k between changes at one point last year.  :mask: I think the normal interval is 15k. The indie shop that I've taken my car to a couple of times told me that even with synthetic it's best to change around every 5-6k. Not sure I buy that.

Send it to a lab.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: GoCougs on January 04, 2012, 08:29:30 AM
An engine will last the longest using the factory-specified type and weight of oil and change interval. Different oils; synthetic or whatever; won't increase engine life. At best synthetic may increase the oil change interval (and only if the engine is designed for it).

Is it known the "knocking" is main or rod bearings going bad? Push rod motors are notorious for lifter noise once they get some hours on them. This is generally not a problem.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on January 11, 2012, 04:54:46 PM
Don't mess with the viscosity, as Cougs mentioned, and use an oil that meets the manufacturer's spec.  Generally speaking, Synthetics don't necessarily permit a longer change interval.  It's the quality of the additive package, not the base oil, that determines that.  Synthetics do have better cold flow characteristics, and tend not to break down to a lower viscosity as readily as conventional oils.  I'd say that for fleet use, the cost/benefit ratio doesn't play out for synthetics whatsoever.  If you go by the owner's manual's specs, or if equipped an oil life monitor, in terms of when to change the oil you'll possibly prolong the life of your engines.  Another idea is an hour meter, and to determine by use of Used Oil Analysis by Blackstone or similar labs how many hours of run-time is the threshold for changing the oil.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on January 11, 2012, 04:59:14 PM
I have been using exclusively Ford Motorcraft Syn-Blend 5w-20 in my Accent. It may only contain a small amount of syntheticness, but it is noticeably faster pouring at cold temps than conventional 5w-20. It's also the same price, or cheaper. Works for me.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on January 11, 2012, 04:59:22 PM
Also, I'd concur with the question Cougs poses regarding the actual source of your engine noise.  In addition to valve-train noise, some piston slap which goes away after a cold start is not uncommon on an older engine.  Constant rod knock would generally degrade to full-on engine failure pretty rapidly.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on January 11, 2012, 04:59:46 PM
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on January 11, 2012, 04:59:14 PM
I have been using exclusively Ford Motorcraft Syn-Blend 5w-20 in my Accent. It may only contain a small amount of syntheticness, but it is noticeably faster pouring at cold temps than conventional 5w-20. It's also the same price, or cheaper. Works for me.

I dig Motorcraft oils and fluids.  I don't have any specific reason other than it's designed and produced by Ford for use in their cars, so it's likely not junk, and it's very affordable.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on January 11, 2012, 05:03:44 PM
Quote from: S204STi on January 11, 2012, 04:59:46 PM
I dig Motorcraft oils and fluids.  I don't have any specific reason other than it's designed and produced by Ford for use in their cars, so it's likely not junk, and it's very affordable.

That about sums it up for me.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: rohan on January 11, 2012, 05:15:51 PM
Quote from: S204STi on January 11, 2012, 04:54:46 PM
Don't mess with the viscosity, as Cougs mentioned,
Cougs was talking out his ass I never said we were changing the viscosity I said what we were using.

?Vehicles with the Multiple Displacement System must use SAE 5W-20 oil. Failure to do so may result in improper operation of the MDS.?


The cars also have hourmeters and I said we were reducing the time between changes- not making it bigger.  We're trying to get longer life out of our cars and the knocking doesn't go away once it starts and we end up either getting rid of them quickly or we rebuild the engine shortly after.  That's the second part we're trying to avoid.  The extra cost of synthetics is small compared to a engine jobs every other year.  Besides it's a done deal now that we're switching over on the new 2012 cars starting with every oil change until they're all converted. 
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: r0tor on January 11, 2012, 06:00:07 PM
Lolz... The oil change interval on my jeep is 8k miles according to the owners manual.  Of course my stealership marks it on the change sticker to come in evry 3k miles

-sigh-
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Secret Chimp on January 11, 2012, 08:29:49 PM
Quote from: S204STi on January 11, 2012, 04:59:46 PM
I dig Motorcraft oils and fluids.  I don't have any specific reason other than it's designed and produced by Ford for use in their cars, so it's likely not junk, and it's very affordable.

The Motorcraft 5W-20 you can get at Wally World works well in Not The Greatest Song In The World.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Rupert on January 11, 2012, 08:54:43 PM
Quote from: r0tor on January 11, 2012, 06:00:07 PM
Lolz... The oil change interval on my jeep is 8k miles according to the owners manual.  Of course my stealership marks it on the change sticker to come in evry 3k miles

-sigh-

The 944 owner manual says the interval is 15,000 miles, and this is a car from 1986. 0_o

I change it every 3000, which is about yearly.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on May 07, 2012, 12:39:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAE 15W-40, API CJ-4 Certified, that meets Chrysler Material Standards MS-10902. Products meeting Cummins CES 20081 Standards may also be used

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so do any of you certified guys do diesel, and if you do would you have a specific oil you would recommend?  My truck told me this am that an oil change is needed, 8,800 miles (so apparently the premature changes were due to break in) and I need to get it done fairly quickly. 

The stealership says I should only use their oil, but they admit to buying in bulk.  :rolleyes:

I am considering CJ-4 Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40 for my permanent oil, but I am just not certain.  Do not care about the cost of the oil or filter.  Could also use suggestions on which filters would be best outside of the overpriced Mopar crap.    Suggestions?
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on May 08, 2012, 08:54:28 PM
Go to BITOG and look over the used oil analyses for that oil, or simply google "Mobil Delvac UOA" and that will hopefully give you a good indication of how good that oil is.  I'm betting it's good stuff.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Secret Chimp on May 09, 2012, 05:59:42 PM
I have some dino Delvac in my Mopar crap and it still looks pretty clean even in an old dirty engine with a lot of idling and short starts.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on May 09, 2012, 09:58:36 PM
Diesel oil is pretty damn good overall, so I dunno if you can find a bad one.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: hounddog on May 11, 2012, 07:04:56 PM
Thanks.

I ended up going with simple Valvoline Premium Blue Diesel Oil because it has a Cummins approval.

Decided not to get fancy or take a risk.  I may not care about the cost of the oil, but, I have no desire to fork over the cost of a new engine.  :lol:
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on May 11, 2012, 07:22:16 PM
I got Rotella 15w-40 for the Harley. And a chrome FRAM
oil filter. Walmart FTW.
Title: Re: Engine Oil FAQ
Post by: S204STi on March 05, 2013, 10:20:44 PM
Updated with links to my latest UOAs.

Also all in this post:


My UOA, number 1 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1156983#Post1156983)
My UOA, Number 2 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2929857)
My UOA, numbers 3 and 4 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2929872&#Post2929872)