Mustang Mach-E

Started by Payman, November 15, 2019, 04:12:33 AM

MX793

Quote from: 2o6 on November 19, 2019, 08:53:15 PM

Even a few places online call the Challenger a "Pony Car".




There are people online who call any long gun a "rifle" or any knife a "dagger".  There are people online who write that the world is flat or that vaccines are a government conspiracy.  The point:  there are a lot of ill-informed people writing things on the internet, and not everything written on the internet is correct or true. 

Fact is, a large number of online automotive journalists are not very knowledgable about cars.  Why do people call the Challenger a pony car?  Well, the original from the early 70s was a pony car, so many assume that the recent one must also be.  These same people are likely not aware of what a pony car actually is, or haven't paid enough attention to the recent Challenger's characteristics to note that it doesn't fit the criteria.  I would wager that you'd find a large amount of overlap between the population of people who think that the current Challenger is a pony car and those who think that any 2-door car is a "coupe".
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 20, 2019, 05:03:48 AM
A Rustang is whatever Ford sells under that name

OCD pedantry seems to run counter to what I thought enjoying cars was all about. The name of this thing has zero effect on the "real" :rolleyes: Mustang.

Then I can fully expect you to charge in to the defense of the Cadillac Cimmeron when somebody claims that it tarnished the Cadillac brand?
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Soup DeVille

Quote from: MX793 on November 20, 2019, 04:57:18 AM
"Real" mustang's are wild/feral horses, so no, they were not used as domesticated beasts of burden.  Once domesticated, a horse is no longer a mustang.

The Mustang car, according to official marketing "lore," is named after the fighter plane rather than the wild horse.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Soup DeVille

Quote from: MX793 on November 20, 2019, 05:39:23 AM
Then I can fully expect you to charge in to the defense of the Cadillac Cimmeron when somebody claims that it tarnished the Cadillac brand?

Excuuuse me. The Cimarron by Cadillac. Not a real Cadillac mind you, just a sort of side project by Cadillac. Just like Chrysler's TC by Maserati.

I like to think of them as children from a significant other's previous low-class marriage. They got some lessons on how to be posh, but still feel more at home in the trailer park.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Soup DeVille

Quote from: MX793 on November 19, 2019, 08:38:06 PM
That they are all performance oriented 2-doors in the same price segment makes them competitors in the minds of many.  Doesn't mean they are the same category of car.  "Pony car" has a meaning (hey, there we are again with words and names and meanings).  One could argue that some or most of the sport compact and hot-hatch segment competes with the Mustang/Camaro/Challenger, particularly the base engine versions thereof.  Don't see anyone claiming that the WRX, Focus ST, or GTI are pony cars.  Because they're not.

The Charger is the pony car, because it too was named after a horse. Obviously this class includes not only the Hyundai Pony, Mitsubishi Colt and Subaru Brumby, but also the Ford Bronco.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

12,000 RPM

Quote from: MX793 on November 20, 2019, 05:39:23 AM
Then I can fully expect you to charge in to the defense of the Cadillac Cimmeron when somebody claims that it tarnished the Cadillac brand?
The Cimarron's problem was that it was a shitty, overpriced car, not necessarily that it was called a Cadillac

From what we know now the Mustang Mach-E is not a shitty car.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MrH

Quote from: 2o6 on November 19, 2019, 05:51:56 PM
It's weird how people are harping on the name when

1. It's not like the Mustang already doesn't feel like a large house to drive. A good handling house, but a house nonethelesss

2. People act as if it's "diluting a brand name" when mustangs are languishing on lots and they're incentivized to all fuck to get them on the lot. People aren't buying coupes.

Big +1 to that.
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

GoCougs

I think this "Mustang" branding is a fair amount of a PR disaster.

I also think it really doesn't matter as no one will really buy it.

RomanChariot

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 20, 2019, 05:03:48 AM
A Rustang is whatever Ford sells under that name

OCD pedantry seems to run counter to what I thought enjoying cars was all about. The name of this thing has zero effect on the "real" :rolleyes: Mustang.

I'm sure you would feel the same about a 3 row Nissan Z56 SUV. Maybe even with Fairlady badges.

I blame all of this nonsense on the introduction of the 4 door luxury coupes.

The fact of the matter is that people have emotional attachments and expectations when it comes to storied car names. If companies mess with those expectations they risk angering and alienating their customers. It may not be entirely rational but it is real.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: RomanChariot on November 20, 2019, 09:49:05 AM
I'm sure you would feel the same about a 3 row Nissan Z56 SUV. Maybe even with Fairlady badges.

I blame all of this nonsense on the introduction of the 4 door luxury coupes.

The fact of the matter is that people have emotional attachments and expectations when it comes to storied car names. If companies mess with those expectations they risk angering and alienating their customers. It may not be entirely rational but it is real.
No, I wouldn't feel that way at all. I think Infiniti moving to the Q name is stupid, but I'd still get a Q50/60 over most of its competitors.

I guess the question for me is how much material impact tacking the Mustang name on this thing had. I seriously doubt anybody is canceling their Mustang orders over this, because like 2o6 said sadly people are not buying Mustangs much in the first place. If anything this thing might have

*sparked*

new interest in the whole Mustang marque. There are definitely more people talking about Mustangs today than a week ago or whatever, and outside of the binary, hyperbolic, backwards looking and contradictory world of the auto enthusiasts the sentiments are pretty neutral or mildly positive.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Xer0

Names mater and labels mean things.  There is a reason why GM went through back to back to back generations of small car names before giving up, why Porsche made the Cayane/Panamera look like a 911 but didn't call them such, and why people were underwhelmed by the Supra even though by all accounts the basics of the car were super promising.  Names have meaning and expectations and a connection to something that brands would kill to have.  Ford slapping a Mustang name on this thing is just diluting that brand, IMO, for really no benefit.  If Ford would have made an EV Mustang and called it the Mustang Mach-E, how cool would that have sounded?  But no, it wasted it here.

RomanChariot

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 20, 2019, 12:05:43 PM
No, I wouldn't feel that way at all. I think Infiniti moving to the Q name is stupid, but I'd still get a Q50/60 over most of its competitors.

I guess the question for me is how much material impact tacking the Mustang name on this thing had. I seriously doubt anybody is canceling their Mustang orders over this, because like 2o6 said sadly people are not buying Mustangs much in the first place. If anything this thing might have

*sparked*

new interest in the whole Mustang marque. There are definitely more people talking about Mustangs today than a week ago or whatever, and outside of the binary, hyperbolic, backwards looking and contradictory world of the auto enthusiasts the sentiments are pretty neutral or mildly positive.

You think that moving to the Q naming scheme was done. I imagine that was because when someone mentioned a G35 or G37 you knew exactly what they were talking about. That was a car name that had only been around for relatively short amount of time but when Infiniti changed the name is confused and frustrated people. Anybody that knows anything about cars in the United States knows exactly what a Mustang is. To throw that name on a car that doesn't match that 55 year history confuses and frustrates people, especially enthusiasts.

12,000 RPM

Lets be frank... the vast majority of enthusiasts don't matter. We generally just judge and hate cars instead of actually buying them. So if it's a choice between selling more cars or appeasing enthusiasts........... :huh:
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

veeman

Well, there's the Mustang Ranch in Nevada.

Eye of the Tiger

2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

GoCougs

You know when EVs are dead when...

veeman

#137
A Dodge Challenger is a pony car.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car

The only reason a Challenger would not be considered a Pony car is because it's too big.  The dimensions between the larger Challenger and smaller Mustang are not that radically different though.  Same width.  Challenger is 3 inches taller, 10 inches longer, and 300 lbs heavier.

A Mustang is by no means a "compact" car.




12,000 RPM

Quote from: GoCougs on November 21, 2019, 09:21:27 AM
You know when EVs are dead when...
More and more new ones keep coming out and car enthusiasts are talking about them? :confused:
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

CaminoRacer

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 21, 2019, 10:26:41 AM
More and more new ones keep coming out and car enthusiasts are talking about them? :confused:

On the tiny street I live on there are 2 Teslas and a Bolt but EVs are definitely dead.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

MX793

Quote from: veeman on November 21, 2019, 09:29:23 AM
A Dodge Challenger is a pony car.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car

The only reason a Challenger would not be considered a Pony car is because it's too big.  The dimensions between the larger Challenger and smaller Mustang are not that radically different though.  Same width.  Challenger is 3 inches taller, 10 inches longer, and 300 lbs heavier.

A Mustang is by no means a "compact" car.





The Challenger is neither a compact nor a coupe.  The Challenger is a 2-door sedan.  It's also not a 2+2, there is seating for 3 in the back.  And 10" of length is huge.  That's the difference between an Accord and a Civic, or Camry and Corolla.  That's a size class difference.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 21, 2019, 10:29:49 AM
On the tiny street I live on there are 2 Teslas and a Bolt but EVs are definitely dead.

I've been seeing a number of Teslas popping up in the parking lot at work.  Older Model Ses and a couple Model 3s.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

FoMoJo

Seen lots of Testla.  Don't think I'd recognize a Bolt.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

veeman

Quote from: MX793 on November 21, 2019, 03:37:23 PM
The Challenger is neither a compact nor a coupe.  The Challenger is a 2-door sedan.  It's also not a 2+2, there is seating for 3 in the back.  And 10" of length is huge.  That's the difference between an Accord and a Civic, or Camry and Corolla.  That's a size class difference.

While Wikipedia is not the end all argument of authority, that particular article on pony cars is pretty damn comprehensive with lots of references.  A Challenger is a pony car as excellently explained in that article.  Your definition is too narrow in scope I think. 

Gotta-Qik-C7

2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

MX793

#145
Quote from: veeman on November 21, 2019, 05:13:59 PM
While Wikipedia is not the end all argument of authority, that particular article on pony cars is pretty damn comprehensive with lots of references.  A Challenger is a pony car as excellently explained in that article.  Your definition is too narrow in scope I think. 

The wiki article says the current Challenger is a pony car, yet the very first sentence contradicts this.  From the article;

QuotePony car is an American car classification for affordable, compact, highly styled coupés or convertibles with a sporty or performance-oriented image.

I repeat:  The current Challenger is NOT a compact, is NOT a coupe, and therefore NOT a pony car.  The original Chally was a pony car.  The current one is not.

In case you're wondering why a Challenger is not a coupe, the SAE defines a coupe as having less than 33 cu.ft of rear passenger volume (J1100).  The Challenger is 36 cu.ft.  Mustang is 32.  Challenger is a 2-door sedan, not a coupe.

It's classified as a midsize vehicle per the EPA.  The Chally has an interior volume of 110.1 cu.ft.  Midsize is 110-119.9 cu.ft.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

veeman

Quote from: MX793 on November 21, 2019, 06:29:03 PM
The wiki article says the current Challenger is a pony car, yet the very first sentence contradicts this.  From the article;

I repeat:  The current Challenger is NOT a compact, is NOT a coupe, and therefore NOT a pony car.  The original Chally was a pony car.  The current one is not.

In case you're wondering why a Challenger is not a coupe, the SAE defines a coupe as having less than 33 cu.ft of rear passenger volume (J1100).  The Challenger is 36 cu.ft.  Mustang is 32.  Challenger is a 2-door sedan, not a coupe.

It's classified as a midsize vehicle per the EPA.  The Chally has an interior volume of 110.1 cu.ft.  Midsize is 110-119.9 cu.ft.

You're being an ultra purist on this.  Here SAE refers to the Challenger as a pony car:

https://www.sae.org/news/2018/08/2019-dodge-challenger-lineup

Last paragraph:  they refer to the Challenger as a throw back pony car coupe.

By googling, most sources are saying there is overlap between pony cars and muscle cars now
as the Mustang and Camaro are no longer compact. May be for racing purposes a Challenger is not in the same class as a Mustang or Camaro, but many many automotive sources are referring to the Challenger as a pony car.

Car and Driver:

https://www.caranddriver.com/dodge/challenger

Motortrend

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.motortrend.com/news/magnificent-seven-pony-car-rankings/amp/

Road and Track

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/a22747324/2019-dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-redeye-first-drive/

Etc Etc.  Be a purist fine.  It's no longer common vernacular in the automotive industry. 












GoCougs

Current Challenger is 100% a pony car.

The definition of a 2-door sedan is that it has a body-line'd b-pillar:

2-door sedan (1955 Chevy):



2-door coupe (1955 Chevy):


Soup DeVille

A coupe is a coach that has been cut down to a two-seater. That's two passengers, a footman and a driver, and two horses.

Anything else is Not a coupe.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

MX793

#149
Quote from: veeman on November 21, 2019, 09:33:07 PM
You're being an ultra purist on this.  Here SAE refers to the Challenger as a pony car:

https://www.sae.org/news/2018/08/2019-dodge-challenger-lineup

Last paragraph:  they refer to the Challenger as a throw back pony car coupe.

By googling, most sources are saying there is overlap between pony cars and muscle cars now
as the Mustang and Camaro are no longer compact. May be for racing purposes a Challenger is not in the same class as a Mustang or Camaro, but many many automotive sources are referring to the Challenger as a pony car.

Car and Driver:

https://www.caranddriver.com/dodge/challenger

Motortrend

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.motortrend.com/news/magnificent-seven-pony-car-rankings/amp/

Road and Track

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/a22747324/2019-dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-redeye-first-drive/

Etc Etc.  Be a purist fine.  It's no longer common vernacular in the automotive industry. 



The current Mustang has an interior volume of 99 cu.ft.  It's technically a subcompact per the EPA.  It certainly is not a midsize car.

The author of that piece from SAE is not one of SAE's technical writers, he's a general journalist.  $10 says he couldn't tell you what SAE's definition of a coupe is.

Quote from: GoCougs on November 21, 2019, 09:57:22 PM
Current Challenger is 100% a pony car.

The definition of a 2-door sedan is that it has a body-line'd b-pillar:

2-door sedan (1955 Chevy):



2-door coupe (1955 Chevy):



Please cite a specification.

The absence of a B pillar is the distinction of a hardtop, not a coupe.  Coupes, sedans, and even wagons may or may not be hardtops.  The mid 50s Bel Air could be had as either a 2 or 4 door hardtop (no pillar) or sedan (with pillar).

I also wouldn't take Chevy marketing as to what is or isn't a coupe as gospel.  They marketed fixed-roof Corvairs as "spyders".  A spyder is a roadster.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5