The Official Mustang Thread

Started by SVT666, June 04, 2007, 10:07:09 AM

565

Quote from: GoCougs on February 12, 2020, 07:23:10 PM
Track duties were at Willows, which is as legit track as any. And even if not tested at Willows, how would "real race tracks" affect the results in these camparos? Noted acceleration and track times are roughly equivalent with the Camaro taking the win for noted race/track advantage in better steering, braking, handling, balance, weight and differential (plus it costs less).

And really, they're about tied, if one subtracts out points for goofy stuff like cargo space.

The GT500 is a fine car, Ford just should have focused.

And what's even more interesting is the ZL1 beats the GT500 in the 5-60 times, and beats or ties it in the passing tests, as well as top speed as the GT500 is limited to 180 and the ZL1 goes to 190. 

If you look at the acceleration curves, the ZL1 is ahead to 60mph, and they are pretty much tied by 90mph, and the GT500 just sneaks ahead at 100mph.  So basically the ZL1 is quicker from 0 till about 90mph, while the GT500 is quicker from 90-180mph, and the ZL1 is quicker from 180 to 190mph (as the GT500 is limited), so the ZL1 is actually quicker for more of the mphs. Also even in the Z06 the amount of time I access hard 90 to 180mph acceleration is minuscule compared to the time I access hard acceleration up to about 90 mph, and also minuscule compared to the amount of time I do 30-50 or 50-70 passing situations.  Getting fun out of a high horsepower car without getting serious jail time is all about short bursts here are there.  Basically the GT500 isn't going to be any quicker in real world situations.

FoMoJo

Quote from: 565 on February 14, 2020, 10:07:29 PM
And what's even more interesting is the ZL1 beats the GT500 in the 5-60 times, and beats or ties it in the passing tests, as well as top speed as the GT500 is limited to 180 and the ZL1 goes to 190. 

If you look at the acceleration curves, the ZL1 is ahead to 60mph, and they are pretty much tied by 90mph, and the GT500 just sneaks ahead at 100mph.  So basically the ZL1 is quicker from 0 till about 90mph, while the GT500 is quicker from 90-180mph, and the ZL1 is quicker from 180 to 190mph (as the GT500 is limited), so the ZL1 is actually quicker for more of the mphs. Also even in the Z06 the amount of time I access hard 90 to 180mph acceleration is minuscule compared to the time I access hard acceleration up to about 90 mph, and also minuscule compared to the amount of time I do 30-50 or 50-70 passing situations.  Getting fun out of a high horsepower car without getting serious jail time is all about short bursts here are there.  Basically the GT500 isn't going to be any quicker in real world situations.
The only reason to get either of these cars is for track days, though either could be exhilarating on the road.

The Camaro has a slight torque advantage and more gears...haven't compared ratios...so short hops, especially with fatter stickier tires should give it an advantage.  The GT500 is more civilized on the road and, other than being limited, has better power at speed.  5 or so seconds quicker to 150 mph is nothing to sneeze at and will make a big difference on a long track.

Take your pick.  :huh:
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 15, 2020, 07:46:38 AM
The only reason to get either of these cars is for track days, though either could be exhilarating on the road.

The Camaro has a slight torque advantage and more gears...haven't compared ratios...so short hops, especially with fatter stickier tires should give it an advantage.  The GT500 is more civilized on the road and, other than being limited, has better power at speed.  5 or so seconds quicker to 150 mph is nothing to sneeze at and will make a big difference on a long track.

Take your pick.  :huh:

If someone is going to splurge on a dedicated track day car, these aren't the types of cars they get.  I know quite a few people with dedicated, hi-po trackday cars.  The kind you trailer to the track.  C5 Corvettes are popular.  So are Miatas.  Seen a few gutted and caged BMW 3-series.  Several have purpose-built racers (not former street cars) like Formula Fords (which aren't so high performance).
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

FoMoJo

Quote from: MX793 on February 15, 2020, 07:58:53 AM
If someone is going to splurge on a dedicated track day car, these aren't the types of cars they get.  I know quite a few people with dedicated, hi-po trackday cars.  The kind you trailer to the track.  C5 Corvettes are popular.  So are Miatas.  Seen a few gutted and caged BMW 3-series.  Several have purpose-built racers (not former street cars) like Formula Fords (which aren't so high performance).
Track days, but if you're a dedicated racer certainly you need a dedicated car.  Karts are fun, to start with, and can be extremely competitive.  Don't need a lot of power to race as long as you are in a formula, just stick to the build rules.  Formula Ford has been around for a long time and was long a second level stepping stage to the next formula.  The little 1 litre EcoBoost engine used now sounds pretty potent.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

#4714
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 15, 2020, 08:12:59 AM
Track days, but if you're a dedicated racer certainly you need a dedicated car.  Karts are fun, to start with, and can be extremely competitive.  Don't need a lot of power to race as long as you are in a formula, just stick to the build rules.  Formula Ford has been around for a long time and was long a second level stepping stage to the next formula.  The little 1 litre EcoBoost engine used now sounds pretty potent.

Most of the people I'm referring to just do track days for fun, not sanctioned competition.  Not uncommon to see "formula" cars show up to open track days.  There are actually a lot of inexpensive formula cars out there.  F1600s, or downscaled "prototype" sports-car bodied vehicles powered by motorcycle or automotive derived 4-cylinders of varying outputs.  These are popular because they are ultimately rather inexpensive to run (same reason Miatas and older 3-series are popular).  The high wear items like brakes and tires and all smaller and much less expensive that hi-po tires for something like a GT500.  Hell, track-suitable tires for my car are about $1400 a set, and don't last long.  Big Brembos aren't cheap for pads and rotors, either.  2-3 track days could easily burn up a set of tires and brakes on a heavy car like the ZL1 or GT500, which is a $2000 bill.  Worse, the selection of hi-po tires in >18" isn't very good, which makes it all the more expensive.  And the big brake kits on these cars make it nearly impossible to fit smaller wheels.  I've looked into trying to downsize to 18" wheels to try to save money and open up more selection on performance tires for my car.  I found only one 18" wheel that will clear my brakes.  They are very high end race wheels and cost $1000 each.  For reference, I paid ~$400 a wheel for a set of lightweight O-Z wheels for race-duty (2/3 the weight of the OE wheels) and a set of OE Performance Pack wheels from Ford Racing were a bit less than $400 a wheel.

C5s, for their performance level, are also relatively inexpensive to run.  Tons of parts, they fit 18" wheels with no problem so there's a lot of tire selection, they aren't particularly heavy so they aren't as hard on tires and brakes as a muscle car weighing 700-900 lbs more.  Not to mention the cost of purchase and damage risk.  You can pick up a C5 for a small fraction of the price of a new GT500 or ZL1.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

FoMoJo

There used to be a lot of hobby classes years ago, might still be.  Friend used to race a Rabbit in a hobby production class at Mosport way back then.

Still, if you had a GT500 or ZL1, it would be kind of a waste if you didn't take them to a track once in a while, just to lap a few times.



"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

GoCougs

Quote from: 565 on February 14, 2020, 10:07:29 PM
And what's even more interesting is the ZL1 beats the GT500 in the 5-60 times, and beats or ties it in the passing tests, as well as top speed as the GT500 is limited to 180 and the ZL1 goes to 190. 

If you look at the acceleration curves, the ZL1 is ahead to 60mph, and they are pretty much tied by 90mph, and the GT500 just sneaks ahead at 100mph.  So basically the ZL1 is quicker from 0 till about 90mph, while the GT500 is quicker from 90-180mph, and the ZL1 is quicker from 180 to 190mph (as the GT500 is limited), so the ZL1 is actually quicker for more of the mphs. Also even in the Z06 the amount of time I access hard 90 to 180mph acceleration is minuscule compared to the time I access hard acceleration up to about 90 mph, and also minuscule compared to the amount of time I do 30-50 or 50-70 passing situations.  Getting fun out of a high horsepower car without getting serious jail time is all about short bursts here are there.  Basically the GT500 isn't going to be any quicker in real world situations.

I had called that out after the first GT500 drag vids came out - the GT500 has seriously tall gearing, which is problematic, since it's a 7,500 RPM motor without VVL powering a vehicle of 4,200 lbs. In short, the ZL1 not only has a much fatter torque curve, it basically has three extra gears WRT the 10 speed AT. Just look at 4th gear - the ZL1 is at 100 mph and the GT500 at 150 mph:


r0tor

The GT500 and ZL1 are the answer to a question nobody really asks... Performance can't be exploited on the street, too heavy for track days, and would still be stomped by a dedicated drag car
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

GoCougs

Quote from: r0tor on February 16, 2020, 02:16:52 PM
The GT500 and ZL1 are the answer to a question nobody really asks... Performance can't be exploited on the street, too heavy for track days, and would still be stomped by a dedicated drag car

Sure, at least some were asking the question. Look how much press, and decent sales (esp. the Hellcat cars), these cars garner.

You couldn't build a car that has these cars' level of performance, safety and durability, for anything remotely close to these MSRPs (esp. the ZL1), and of course it will never have a warranty.

By both definitions (press/sales volume and value proposition), these cars are most definitely an answer to a question.

giant_mtb

Quote from: r0tor on February 16, 2020, 02:16:52 PM
The GT500 and ZL1 are the answer to a question nobody really asks... Performance can't be exploited on the street, too heavy for track days, and would still be stomped by a dedicated drag car

unthusiass pos.

r0tor

Quote from: GoCougs on February 16, 2020, 07:12:37 PM
Sure, at least some were asking the question. Look how much press, and decent sales (esp. the Hellcat cars), these cars garner.

You couldn't build a car that has these cars' level of performance, safety and durability, for anything remotely close to these MSRPs (esp. the ZL1), and of course it will never have a warranty.

By both definitions (press/sales volume and value proposition), these cars are most definitely an answer to a question.

If you get caught at a track or a drag strip with these things you won't have a warranty either
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

FoMoJo

"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Soup DeVille

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 17, 2020, 08:33:51 AM
You can take them to the track and even drive them, but you can't compete...To be specific, taking the GT500 to the drag strip or a test-and-tune track event will not void the warranty. Should an owner enter their GT500 into a bracketed heat at a drag strip, or any track competition, that will void the car's warranty.

Makes sense.


Yes. And No.

It will likely (if caught) void any warranty coverage having to do with those portions of the vehicle which may be adversely effected by racing- transmissions, driveline, most of the engine, etc... 

It will not (by law, although they will of course argue this) void the warranty in general. Problems with the passenger window or back-up camera and other systems that cannot reasonably be said to be effected by racing activities will still be covered.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

FoMoJo

Quote from: Soup DeVille on February 17, 2020, 09:13:54 AM

Yes. And No.

It will likely (if caught) void any warranty coverage having to do with those portions of the vehicle which may be adversely effected by racing- transmissions, driveline, most of the engine, etc... 

It will not (by law, although they will of course argue this) void the warranty in general. Problems with the passenger window or back-up camera and other systems that cannot reasonably be said to be effected by racing activities will still be covered.
Even just taking it around a track?
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Soup DeVille

Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

GoCougs

Quote from: r0tor on February 17, 2020, 07:56:24 AM
If you get caught at a track or a drag strip with these things you won't have a warranty either

Lots of cars and lots of warranties out there, but in general, you are wrong yet again:

"If you're not modifying your car and you take your production car to a track day and you have an issue with one of your parts, it's covered under warranty."

- Al Oppenheiser, Camaro Chief Engineer (https://www.autoblog.com/2016/04/01/2016-chevy-camaro-track-warranty/)

"A track day will not void the 2020 Shelby GT500's warranty."

- Ford official presser ( https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1120984_ford-will-honor-your-2020-mustang-shelby-gt500-warranty-if-you-take-it-to-a-racetrack)

r0tor

Quote from: Soup DeVille on February 17, 2020, 09:13:54 AM

Yes. And No.

It will likely (if caught) void any warranty coverage having to do with those portions of the vehicle which may be adversely effected by racing- transmissions, driveline, most of the engine, etc... 

It will not (by law, although they will of course argue this) void the warranty in general. Problems with the passenger window or back-up camera and other systems that cannot reasonably be said to be effected by racing activities will still be covered.

... Which is why you don't buy a new car for a track day car with the premise of having a warranty to fix things...
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

GoCougs

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 17, 2020, 09:22:54 AM
Even just taking it around a track?

Nah, if you a drop a tranny or break an axle at the strip, the warranty covers it per the definitions of the warranties thus provided.

But whether on the street or track, abuse and misuse won't be covered, so I'm sure any sort of warranty claim includes an ECU upload to look for The Funny Business.

What the automakers want to prevent is competition (as in a professional race series) as no car lasts long doing that.

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on February 17, 2020, 10:44:23 AM
... Which is why you don't buy a new car for a track day car with the premise of having a warranty to fix things...

Lots of people do and just take their chances-  but in general I don't think its a good idea.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator


MX793

Quote from: 565 on March 04, 2020, 06:14:12 AM
https://www.mustang6g.com/new-2020-gt350r-owner-taking-cross-country-delivery-road-trip-experiences-engine-failure/

Bummer.  Sounds like maybe a spark plug electrode broke off into the engine?  This sort of stuff can happen with any car.  A business associate of mine had a major engine failure in a new Chevy truck at under 1000 miles.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

CaminoRacer

Yeah failures like that happen every once in a while. Bad batch of whatever part that didn't get caught by QC.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

FoMoJo

Good article...Automobile All-Stars: How the 2020 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 Beat the Lamborghini Huracan Evo

Quote
Don't mistake the Huracan as a loser: if you're invited to All-Stars to begin with, you're already a winner. The Lamborghini Huracan Evo is a fabulous, sense-tingling Hot Wheels car come to life, but the 2020 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 is all that, and more.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

GoCougs

Interesting, but the details are sparse, as is the definition of "All-Star." The Huracan is on a different plane of performance existence vs. the GT500 - 0-60, 1/4 mile, top speed, braking, track performance.

Submariner

Quote from: GoCougs on March 17, 2020, 12:45:38 PM
Interesting, but the details are sparse, as is the definition of "All-Star." The Huracan is on a different plane of performance existence vs. the GT500 - 0-60, 1/4 mile, top speed, braking, track performance.

"This, coupled with a spectacular chassis and brutally handsome good looks, meant even the Huracan Evo couldn't match the GT500's blend of pirouetting poise and throat-chop power on either track or road."

There.  That sums it up right?
2010 G-550  //  2019 GLS-550

FoMoJo

Quote from: Submariner on March 19, 2020, 01:43:33 PM
"This, coupled with a spectacular chassis and brutally handsome good looks, meant even the Huracan Evo couldn't match the GT500's blend of pirouetting poise and throat-chop power on either track or road."

There.  That sums it up right?
Right. :ohyeah:
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

GoCougs

Quote from: Submariner on March 19, 2020, 01:43:33 PM
"This, coupled with a spectacular chassis and brutally handsome good looks, meant even the Huracan Evo couldn't match the GT500's blend of pirouetting poise and throat-chop power on either track or road."

There.  That sums it up right?

That just makes it worse, and not only because the author does not understand the meaning of the word "pirouette."

Sure, choose it because of looks or sound or whatever, but in no performance metric is the GT500 even close. It's like it's written by USA Today.

FoMoJo

Quote from: GoCougs on March 19, 2020, 07:26:22 PM
That just makes it worse, and not only because the author does not understand the meaning of the word "pirouette."

Sure, choose it because of looks or sound or whatever, but in no performance metric is the GT500 even close. It's like it's written by USA Today.
Whine, whine, bla, bla, bla. :lol:
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

FoMoJo

I like the looks of this 2021 Ford Mustang Mach 1, especially the twin nozzles/nostrils in the grille.



"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on May 29, 2020, 05:35:04 PM
I like the looks of this 2021 Ford Mustang Mach 1, especially the twin nozzles/nostrils in the grille.





Wonder if they're going to bring the grille-mounted driving/fog lamps back?  Not sure they really suit the current bodystyle.  Maybe with a substantial change to the whole front fascia...
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5