If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.

[GoCougs]

No other details provided other than gasoline fired, iron block and two-valve pooprod valve train:  The 2020 Ford Super Duty Gets a Giant 7.3-Liter Gasoline V8. The 385hp 6.2L SOHC will remain.

Ford now has FIVE disparate upper trim gasoline engines for its full-size trucks and SUVs (compared to just two for GM (5.3L and 6.2L pooprods) and Ram (5.7L and 6.4L pooprods)):
375 hp TTV6
385 hp 6.2L SOHC 2-vavle V8
395 hp 5.0L DOHC V8
400 hp TTV6
450 hp TTV6
425 hp (?) 7.3L pooprod V8

What's even more interesting is the more powerful Ecoboost motors are not offered in the Super Duty (but not really interesting when examined). Unfocused engine platform strategy hamstrung Ford in the muscle/pony car heyday. We'll see.

[Eye of the Tiger]

This is why they had to stop building cars. They are too busy building truck engines.

[mzziaz]

Weird move.

[SJ_GTI]

This is why they had to stop building cars. They are too busy building truck engines.

[Submariner]

That's a pretty crowded engine lineup.  Turbos, DI, port, 2/3/4 valve, and now OHV, SOHC/DOHC and power ratings are all pretty similar across engine sizes.  I think Cougs is right, Ford is internally worrying about their EcoBust engine and wants something cheaper/easier to build and repair.  The Triton was a dumpster fire and now their turbo engines aren't giving them the economy they hoped for so its back to basics.

[FoMoJo]

Sounds like Ford is getting serious about the commercial truck business.  Anyways, it will also be available for F Series and, more importantly...2020 F-150 Raptor To Receive Ford's New 7.3L pushrod V8 gas Motor.

[RomanChariot]

You missed one for Chevy. They still offer the 6.0 gas motor in their HD trucks.

Edit: It looks like the 6.0 may getting replaced with a 6.6 gas motor for 2019 in the HD trucks.

[GoCougs]

That's a pretty crowded engine lineup.  Turbos, DI, port, 2/3/4 valve, and now OHV, SOHC/DOHC and power ratings are all pretty similar across engine sizes.  I think Cougs is right, Ford is internally worrying about their EcoBust engine and wants something cheaper/easier to build and repair.  The Triton was a dumpster fire and now their turbo engines aren't giving them the economy they hoped for so its back to basics.

In M/T's most recent TOTY competition, both the Expedition and Navigator with the uplevel Ecoboost TTV6 were slower and got same/worse mpg than an Escalade.

I've seen/heard a number of Ecoboost F150s with aftermarket exhaust. That may be enough to revert back.

But yes, a pooprod mill is impossible to beat when it comes to the combo of size+weight+cost+power+durability+repairability.

[Xer0]

Jesus, I never realized that the F-150 had that many engine options.  I guess in hindsight I should have suspected since every review of an F-150 always mentions it having an engine I've never heard before.  I just assumed Ford was constantly replacing one engine with the other, never knew they were offering all of them on top of each other.  Like why are there two V8s with practically the same power?

[12,000 RPM]

Ford has been on a variety kick for quite some time now. One of the biggest sources of cost on the Focus was the fact that they had like 100x the trim/option/color combos its competition did.

I still get the feeling a pooprod hot V single cross plane turbo V8 would combine the best of all worlds (efficiency, brum, packaging) but what do I know.

[FoMoJo]

Jesus, I never realized that the F-150 had that many engine options.  I guess in hindsight I should have suspected since every review of an F-150 always mentions it having an engine I've never heard before.  I just assumed Ford was constantly replacing one engine with the other, never knew they were offering all of them on top of each other.  Like why are there two V8s with practically the same power?

Also a couple of diesel options as well.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

This is why they had to stop building cars. They are too busy building truck engines.

Sounds like Ford is getting serious about the commercial truck business.  Anyways, it will also be available for F Series and, more importantly...2020 F-150 Raptor To Receive Ford's New 7.3L pushrod V8 gas Motor.

Shudda had a V8 from the jump! 

That's a pretty crowded engine lineup.  Turbos, DI, port, 2/3/4 valve, and now OHV, SOHC/DOHC and power ratings are all pretty similar across engine sizes.  I think Cougs is right, Ford is internally worrying about their EcoBust engine and wants something cheaper/easier to build and repair.  The Triton was a dumpster fire and now their turbo engines aren't giving them the economy they hoped for so its back to basics.

Typical Ford.....

[GoCougs]

Ford has been on a variety kick for quite some time now. One of the biggest sources of cost on the Focus was the fact that they had like 100x the trim/option/color combos its competition did.

I still get the feeling a pooprod hot V single cross plane turbo V8 would combine the best of all worlds (efficiency, brum, packaging) but what do I know.

Ford Voodoo has shown us flat plane isn't really a good diea. All we all know how it's going with turbos.

Like a lot of things in life, the best thing to do is to keep doing the same thing. Keep refining the pooprod V8 - materials, compression ratio, VE - lots left.

[MrH]

Wow.  This is a pretty wild development actually.  Ecoboost was supposed to replace EVERYTHING.

And now they're bowing to the pooprod gods

[RomanChariot]

In M/T's most recent TOTY competition, both the Expedition and Navigator with the uplevel Ecoboost TTV6 were slower and got same/worse mpg than an Escalade.

I've seen/heard a number of Ecoboost F150s with aftermarket exhaust. That may be enough to revert back.

But yes, a pooprod mill is impossible to beat when it comes to the combo of size+weight+cost+power+durability+repairability.

This is really shocking news. Two vehicles that weigh the same and have roughly the same power get roughly the same fuel economy. And the vehicle with 20 more horsepower is faster.

The 6.2 liter engine is powerful and efficient. The fact that the 3.5TT manages to roughly match it is not a bad thing.

[FoMoJo]

In M/T's most recent TOTY competition, both the Expedition and Navigator with the uplevel Ecoboost TTV6 were slower and got same/worse mpg than an Escalade.

I've seen/heard a number of Ecoboost F150s with aftermarket exhaust. That may be enough to revert back.

But yes, a pooprod mill is impossible to beat when it comes to the combo of size+weight+cost+power+durability+repairability.

Link?

Odd that the Navigator is selling like hot cakes vs. the Escalade.

[shp4man]

The desired characteristics of truck engines are different than passenger cars. Dependability, longevity and high torque make a good truck engine. Added complexity, like twin turbos, affects repair costs and dependability. 
High torque can be achieved with turbos, they just artificially increase the engine displacement.
But longevity is better the old way- just make a bigger engine without complex components like twin turbos and a complicated valve train.

[Submariner]

This is really shocking news. Two vehicles that weigh the same and have roughly the same power get roughly the same fuel economy. And the vehicle with 20 more horsepower is faster.

The 6.2 liter engine is powerful and efficient. The fact that the 3.5TT manages to roughly match it is not a bad thing.

Then what is the point of haveing a more complicated, more expensive engine?

[GoCougs]

This is really shocking news. Two vehicles that weigh the same and have roughly the same power get roughly the same fuel economy. And the vehicle with 20 more horsepower is faster.

The 6.2 liter engine is powerful and efficient. The fact that the 3.5TT manages to roughly match it is not a bad thing.

Well, compared to the Navigator, the Escalade is also a bit ahead in both performance and economy - in M/T's SOTY the Navigator didn't even break in to the 14s.

Sure, it's sorta close match up, but TT DOHC vs. a pooprod motor? Lots of expense, complexity, and risk for durability/longevity and expensive repairs to almost pull even?

[68_427]

Doesn't the Navigator have the 450hp/510tq version?

I still like the Navigator more though.

[12,000 RPM]

Ford Voodoo has shown us flat plane isn't really a good diea. All we all know how it's going with turbos.

Like a lot of things in life, the best thing to do is to keep doing the same thing. Keep refining the pooprod V8 - materials, compression ratio, VE - lots left.

Hey, the pooprod is a marvel of engineering, and a bench racer's dream. But I won't stand for the Voodoo slander. It's one of the greatest V8s of all time, and IMO is the best V8 to come out of Detroit, possibly ever.

Plus Ford has been kicking GM's ass in the V8 vehicle game for decades (F-150 > Silverado/Sierra, Mustang > Camaro), even with the messy engines. So they're doing something right. I don't even like to talk this way as I like GM's vehicles but you forced my hand with the Voodoo blasphemy.

[GoCougs]

Hey, the pooprod is a marvel of engineering, and a bench racer's dream. But I won't stand for the Voodoo slander. It's one of the greatest V8s of all time, and IMO is the best V8 to come out of Detroit, possibly ever.

Plus Ford has been kicking GM's ass in the V8 vehicle game for decades (F-150 > Silverado/Sierra, Mustang > Camaro), even with the messy engines. So they're doing something right. I don't even like to talk this way as I like GM's vehicles but you forced my hand with the Voodoo blasphemy.

The principal tenet of slander (libel actually) is that the assertion is false. The LS7 is smaller, lighter, less costly, less complicated, and performs just as good or better in a larger, heavier vehicle (i.e., 5G Z/28 vs. S550 GT350). Now add the fact that the he LS7 is a design 10 years older and a person who does not deny facts, data and logic has no choice but to conclude that the Voodoo wasn't really a good idea.

Had Ford invested Voodoo effort into bringing the Coyote up to snuff perhaps with VVL and more cubes, well, Ford would've had a motor that performed better than the Voodoo and perhaps (finally) the LS7. Plus of course, such an effort would have paid dividends elsewhere (F150 and Mustang GT). Such as it was, Ford repeats the same sin with unfocused engine development, ultimately failing to deliver as good or better than the competition.

[12,000 RPM]

The principal tenet of slander (libel actually) is that the assertion is false. The LS7 is smaller, lighter, less costly, less complicated, and performs just as good or better in a larger, heavier vehicle (i.e., 5G Z/28 vs. S550 GT350). Now add the fact that the he LS7 is a design 10 years older and a person who does not deny facts, data and logic has no choice but to conclude that the Voodoo wasn't really a good idea.

Had Ford invested Voodoo effort into bringing the Coyote up to snuff perhaps with VVL and more cubes, well, Ford would've had a motor that performed better than the Voodoo and perhaps (finally) the LS7. Plus of course, such an effort would have paid dividends elsewhere (F150 and Mustang GT). Such as it was, Ford repeats the same sin with unfocused engine development, ultimately failing to deliver as good or better than the competition.

I feel like we've had this conversation before..........

Not everyone worships at the altar of engineering efficiency. As much of an engineer/bench racer's delight as the LS7 is, it's no match for the Voodoo in all the emotional stuff that actually gets people to buy cars. LSx are very good tools whereas the Voodoo is a musical instrument.

Not to mention if the LS7 were so great GM wouldn't have had to cancel it. So clearly there were some things it couldn't do

[MX793]

Jesus, I never realized that the F-150 had that many engine options.  I guess in hindsight I should have suspected since every review of an F-150 always mentions it having an engine I've never heard before.  I just assumed Ford was constantly replacing one engine with the other, never knew they were offering all of them on top of each other.  Like why are there two V8s with practically the same power?

Not all of those are available in the F150.  That's the gas engine lineup for the entire F series.  Also includes some specialty models like the Raptor, which gets the 3.5TT in a higher state of tune.

[MX793]

Ford's current consumer truck/SUV (excluding crossovers) engine lineup up.  There are some additional engines if we go up to their commercial grade vehicles (F450+), but I'm not including those at the moment.

F150
3.3V6 - 290 hp
2.7TTV6 - 325 hp
3.5TTV6 - 375 hp
5.0V8 - 395 hp
3.0 Diesel - 250 hp

F150 Raptor
3.5TTHOV6 - 450 hp

Expedition
3.5TTV6 -375 hp

F250
6.2L SOHC - 385 hp
6.7L Diesel - 450 hp

F350
6.2L SOHC - 385 hp
6.7L Diesel - 450 hp

Lincoln Navigator
3.5TTHOV6 - 450 hp

8 engines (and two of them are just different tunes of the same basic engine).

The new 7.3 is slated for the HD line, which means it might go in an F250 or 350, or may be exclusive to their larger, commercial grade trucks.  Right now, Ford is still using the Triton 6.8 V10 gasser in their larger (F650+) commercial vehicles.  The 7.3 may be a replacement for that aging (debuted in the mid 90s) motor rather than an option for their higher volume, "consumer" level trucks.

Now let's look at GM
Silverado/Sierra 1500
2.7T I4 - 310 hp
4.3V6 - 285 hp
5.3V8 - 355 hp
5.3V8DFM - 355 hp w/ Dynamic Fuel Management
6.2V8 - 420 hp

Silverado/Sierra 2500
6.0V8 - 360 hp
6.6 Diesel - 445 hp

Silverado/Sierra 3500
6.0V8 - 360 hp
6.6 Diesel - 445 hp

Tahoe/Yukon
5.3V8 - 355 hp
6.2V8 - 420 hp

Suburban/Yukon XL
5.3V8 - 355 hp
6.2V8 - 420 hp

Escalade
6.2V8 - 420 hp

That's 7 different engine configurations (with 2 being subtle variations of the same thing).  As memory serves, GM was working on a diesel option for their half-ton models for 2019 or 2020, which would put them at 8.  Same as Ford.  Unless the new 7.3 goes into consumer grade trucks, then Ford will still have one additional engine configuration.

[GoCougs]

I feel like we've had this conversation before..........

Not everyone worships at the altar of engineering efficiency. As much of an engineer/bench racer's delight as the LS7 is, it's no match for the Voodoo in all the emotional stuff that actually gets people to buy cars. LSx are very good tools whereas the Voodoo is a musical instrument.

Not to mention if the LS7 were so great GM wouldn't have had to cancel it. So clearly there were some things it couldn't do

You're just making it worse.

[RomanChariot]

Then what is the point of haveing a more complicated, more expensive engine?

Well, compared to the Navigator, the Escalade is also a bit ahead in both performance and economy - in M/T's SOTY the Navigator didn't even break in to the 14s.

Sure, it's sorta close match up, but TT DOHC vs. a pooprod motor? Lots of expense, complexity, and risk for durability/longevity and expensive repairs to almost pull even?

Yes, the EcoBoost motor is more complicated but the turbo does have advantages in high elevations like where I live. The biggest advantage that the Ford EcoBoost would have for me right now is availability. You can't get the 6.2L engine in a Silverado without stepping up to at least a $50,000 LTZ model. Ford will put the EcoBoost in a $45,000 Lariat. The 5.3L Chevy engine is a good power plant but I'm sure that I'm not alone in wishing that GM would make the 6.2L available further down their lineup.

[12,000 RPM]

You're just making it worse.

You're right; I think you've had enough torque tube today.

[Submariner]

You're right; I think you've had enough torque tube today.

Oh shit.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Hey, the pooprod is a marvel of engineering, and a bench racer's dream. But I won't stand for the Voodoo slander. It's one of the greatest V8s of all time, and IMO is the best V8 to come out of Detroit, possibly ever.

Plus Ford has been kicking GM's ass in the V8 vehicle game for decades (F-150 > Silverado/Sierra, Mustang > Camaro), even with the messy engines. So they're doing something right. I don't even like to talk this way as I like GM's vehicles but you forced my hand with the Voodoo blasphemy.

This is untrue!  Unless you're speaking on sales ALONE! Power wise the LS Motors have put the smack down on Ford since the late 90s.....