You want to buy an SUV. You want a bit of space, a bit of elbow room, a center console with a bit of width.
But you don't want any interior space wasted by a vestigial third row of seats, that you will never, ever use.
CX-5s are too cramped. CX-9s lug around the third-row appendage
CR-Vs are too cramped. Pilots lug around the third-row appendage
It's probably ignorance but I don't see too many mainstream two-row SUVs that are in the Goldilocks middle-sized zone. There are any number above & below... but the choice is limited in this niche.
Lots of blurred lines here but, off the top of my head:
Honda Passport
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Ford Edge (Lincoln Nautilus)
Hyundai Santa Fe
Chevy Blazer
Not technically an SUV, but Outback?
Why do you want to buy an SUV? That sort of helps narrow down the small list
Toyota Venza / Lexus RX?
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 17, 2020, 10:52:30 AM
You want to buy an SUV. You want a bit of space, a bit of elbow room, a center console with a bit of width.
But you don't want any interior space wasted by a vestigial third row of seats, that you will never, ever use.
CX-5s are too cramped. CX-9s lug around the third-row appendage
CR-Vs are too cramped. Pilots lug around the third-row appendage
It's probably ignorance but I don't see too many mainstream two-row SUVs that are in the Goldilocks middle-sized zone. There are any number above & below... but the choice is limited in this niche.
Lots of blurred lines here but, off the top of my head:
Honda Passport
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Ford Edge (Lincoln Nautilus)
Hyundai Santa Fe
Chevy Blazer
Mid-size is definitely the way to go for a SUV. The extra width, compared to CR-V and Escape sizes makes a big difference, especially for old codgers like us.
I would add Land Rover Discovery Sport HSE to your list if you might be considering something with a hint of luxury. Ours has been flawless approaching 4 years.
Kia SorentoNiroSportage
Quote from: r0tor on September 17, 2020, 12:34:15 PM
Why do you want to buy an SUV? That sort of helps narrow down the small list
My CR-V is coming up to three years. It's uncomfortable enough and has enough design issues, principal of which is the 1.5T oil dilution thing, to prompt a replacement. So I'm sniffing around for something with a bit more width & refinement.
The Edge and the Grand Cherokee are ideal for the size segment & it occurred to me that there aren't to many others in that slot.
Quote from: FoMoJo on September 17, 2020, 05:03:28 PM
Mid-size is definitely the way to go for a SUV. The extra width, compared to CR-V and Escape sizes makes a big difference, especially for old codgers like us.
This... exactly.
Quote from: FoMoJo on September 17, 2020, 05:03:28 PM
I would add Land Rover Discovery Sport HSE to your list if you might be considering something with a hint of luxury. Ours has been flawless approaching 4 years.
Thanks I add it to my list.
You might want to look at the CX-30? It might be "below" the CX-5 in terms of size, but a car's feeling of spaciousness/crampedness is only loosely coupled to its exterior footprint (see Hummer as a pathological example.) Reviews on it have been pretty effusive.
https://www.caranddriver.com/mazda/cx-30
Brawn
Co
https://classics.autotrader.com/classic-cars/1983/chevrolet/blazer/101349130
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 17, 2020, 06:23:41 PM
My CR-V is coming up to three years. It's uncomfortable enough and has enough design issues, principal of which is the 1.5T oil dilution thing, to prompt a replacement. So I'm sniffing around for something with a bit more width & refinement.
The Edge and the Grand Cherokee are ideal for the size segment & it occurred to me that there aren't to many others in that slot.
Grand Cherokee is great if you want to do some offroading and driving in lots of snow/ice. The Edge is probably better if you never go off paved roads and can skip a blizzard - it rides and handles just a bit better than the Jeep... But will never really be fun as it's FWD based.
If you want to have fun, test drive a Stelvio. 9/10th the fun of a proper sports sedan. RWD most of the time. Alfa is also conservative on how they do interior luggage space so it is a lot better in that aspect than the specs suggest.
Saw a Stelvio in person yesterday, white, in SC of all places (LOL). Very handsome!
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 17, 2020, 06:23:41 PM
My CR-V is coming up to three years. It's uncomfortable enough and has enough design issues, principal of which is the 1.5T oil dilution thing, to prompt a replacement. So I'm sniffing around for something with a bit more width & refinement.
The Edge and the Grand Cherokee are ideal for the size segment & it occurred to me that there aren't to many others in that slot.
I'm finding the Outback is the perfect size. Doesn't feel massive to drive around, but very comfortable for 4 people plus tons of luggage. I prefer the cargo area shape vs the others you're listing. It's not as tall, same width, but much longer. Just a much more usable shape.
CVT sucks, infotainment is much improved with the latest update. NVH and ride comfort is pretty unmatched right now.
Quote from: MrH on September 18, 2020, 09:23:46 AM
I'm finding the Outback is the perfect size. Doesn't feel massive to drive around, but very comfortable for 4 people plus tons of luggage. I prefer the cargo area shape vs the others you're listing. It's not as tall, same width, but much longer. Just a much more usable shape.
CVT sucks, infotainment is much improved with the latest update. NVH and ride comfort is pretty unmatched right now.
+1
Subaru just needs to put a 10 speed auto in it. That'd be a sweet ride with a 6 cylinder and 8/10 speed auto.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 18, 2020, 09:32:43 AM
+1
Subaru just needs to put a 10 speed auto in it. That'd be a sweet ride with a 6 cylinder and 8/10 speed auto.
You're in Utah now! You should appreciate the switch to the 2.4 turbo.
CVT isn't great. The groan under acceleration sounds like the car is in agony, but for the 99% of the time that I'm just cruising on a highway or putt putting around town, it's fine. The manual mode is laughably bad. It just makes everything worse :lol:
Quote from: MrH on September 18, 2020, 10:02:31 AM
You're in Utah now! You should appreciate the switch to the 2.4 turbo.
CVT isn't great. The groan under acceleration sounds like the car is in agony, but for the 99% of the time that I'm just cruising on a highway or putt putting around town, it's fine. The manual mode is laughably bad. It just makes everything worse :lol:
Oh, yeah the turbo 4 cylinder is good. The base 4 cylinder? No thx.
I'd be interested in a Crosstrek if they put the turbo 4 in it.
Forester too? Not sure how it compares size wise.
Foresters are comparable from a size and utility POV, but the extra money you spend on Outbacks goes toward refinement.
+1 on the Outback too. They're kind of a Goldilocks SUV. They're not quite as tall, but they're longer, and length is a dimension that's more useful for people and cargo.
I could never buy an automobile with a CVT
Quote from: r0tor on September 18, 2020, 11:27:05 AM
I could never buy an automobile with a CVT
CVTs are for scooters and snowmobiles.
CVTs are fine for SUVs. They will barrel roll when you have too much fun, anyway.
Quote from: Laconian on September 18, 2020, 01:02:02 PM
CVTs are fine for SUVs. They will barrel roll when you have too much fun, anyway.
Except they are too heavy and CVTs burn up because they are always slipping.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 18, 2020, 01:15:15 PM
Except they are too heavy and CVTs burn up because they are always slipping.
There are fewer friction parts in a CVT than an AT, no?
Quote from: Laconian on September 18, 2020, 01:25:12 PM
There are fewer friction parts in a CVT than an AT, no?
Aren't CVTa basically one long pair of friction parts (cones)?
Quote from: FoMoJo on September 18, 2020, 01:41:58 PM
Aren't CVTa basically one long pair of friction parts (cones)?
They slip laterally, but there aren't any clutches.
Quote from: Laconian on September 18, 2020, 01:25:12 PM
There are fewer friction parts in a CVT than an AT, no?
CTVs generate tons of heat. An AT gearbox does not (except for the torque converter when not locked and slipping)
Quote from: r0tor on September 18, 2020, 02:52:17 PM
CTVs generate tons of heat. An AT gearbox does not (except for the torque converter when not locked and slipping)
Well, heat's a dead ringer for friction...
Quote from: Laconian on September 18, 2020, 11:15:49 AM
Foresters are comparable from a size and utility POV, but the extra money you spend on Outbacks goes toward refinement.
+1 on the Outback too. They're kind of a Goldilocks SUV. They're not quite as tall, but they're longer, and length is a dimension that's more useful for people and cargo.
You told me to get an Outback way back. I went with the CR-V. Shoulda listened to Laconian.
I'm pretty sure CVT heat was the root cause of the Honda's cascading error messages when I was climbing one of the mountains here a few weeks back.
The CR-V WOULD have been a really nice vehicle if it weren't for the Earth Nightmares engine.
Quote from: r0tor on September 18, 2020, 02:52:17 PM
CTVs generate tons of heat. An AT gearbox does not (except for the torque converter when not locked and slipping)
Even with the TC locked, you're still pumping fluid, which generates some heat.
Was watch Matt Farah's review of the 2021 Supra 4-banger and he mentioned he overheated the AT on one of the canyon roads and was stuck in limp mode for half an hour.
Quote from: Laconian on September 18, 2020, 01:25:12 PM
There are fewer friction parts in a CVT than an AT, no?
Yes, but they require a lot of tension toy maintain enough friction to work. Super high failure rate in most automotive applications, and they aren't used at all in heavier vehicles for a reason.
Hyundai Santa Fe's are very roomy. Grand Cherokee's look awesome. I would seriously also consider a new or certified Lexus RX, especially knowing what a stickler you are for quality.
Telluride or bust
Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 18, 2020, 10:23:03 PM
Telluride or bust
Telluride's three rows - but a solid choice.
Quote from: veeman on September 18, 2020, 10:04:28 PM
Hyundai Santa Fe's are very roomy. Grand Cherokee's look awesome. I would seriously also consider a new or certified Lexus RX, especially knowing what a stickler you are for quality.
Grand Cherokee is at the end of its model cycle - so bugs are ironed out and prices should be reasonable as dealers offload them for the '21s. RX presses all the buttons except in the looks department - face like a badger's ball bag.
Test drive an Outback. I much prefer the seating position vs the competitors. More car like with your legs in front of you than sitting on a barstool feeling like most crossovers and minivans.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 19, 2020, 05:31:37 AM
Grand Cherokee is at the end of its model cycle - so bugs are ironed out...
It's a Fiat-Chrysler product. The bugs are never ironed out.
Quote from: MX793 on September 20, 2020, 07:33:08 PM
It's a Fiat-Chrysler product. The bugs are never ironed out.
It's product of Daimler - it's bugs were worked out 10 years ago
Quote from: r0tor on September 21, 2020, 05:51:20 AM
It's product of Daimler - it's bugs were worked out 10 years ago
It's an outlier in Consumer Reports; most Fiat-Chrysler stuff has abysmal reliability ratings. The GC is okay. 300 does alright too.
Do they still make the Doge Journey? What a piece. I bet you can get one super cheap.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 17, 2020, 06:23:41 PM
My CR-V is coming up to three years. It's uncomfortable enough and has enough design issues, principal of which is the 1.5T oil dilution thing, to prompt a replacement. So I'm sniffing around for something with a bit more width & refinement.
The Edge and the Grand Cherokee are ideal for the size segment & it occurred to me that there aren't to many others in that slot.
What?????
I agree with others Outback is certainly worth a close look. I'd prob look at the RAV4 too, it's been redesigned since you bought the CRV and looks to be improved.
I agree there should be more 2 row midsized SUVs, I really have little need for a 3rd row. I'd recommend the 4runner if it wasn't ancient and you didn't say you're looking for more refinement.
Atlas CrossSport
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2020/09/the-2020-audi-a6-allroad-did-you-realize-its-on-sale-now
The handsome alternative to the Outback. It only costs twice as much. :lol:
The interesting thing on the Atlas Cross sport is it has the same wheelbase as the larger Atlas... So essentially you get the rear legroom of a larger class of vehicle
There's a few options for you to choose from:
Honda Passport
VW Atlas Crosssport
Chevy Blazer
Ford Edge
Nissan Murano
Audi Q5
BMW X3 (both are smaller than those cars, but are more refined)
Subaru Outback, I think it really pushing the definition of an SUV. It shares a lot of body stampings and ergonmics with the Legacy sedan, which I guess isn't a bad thing, but in my mind, it's firmly a station wagon.
Hyundai Santa Fe
Kia Sorento - the Sorento will be all new for 2021. I think the 3rd row is optional.
Lincoln Avaitor (sort of)
Lincoln Corsair (kind of small, but once again - it's nice)
Toyota Venza (basically a nicer, slightly longer RAV4, but hybrid only)
Quote from: r0tor on October 01, 2020, 12:37:07 PM
The interesting thing on the Atlas Cross sport is it has the same wheelbase as the larger Atlas... So essentially you get the rear legroom of a larger class of vehicle
I wonder what proportion of three-row SUV buyers actually use the third row and, if so, how often. I agree about the Outback - it's a station wagon. Nothing wrong with that - a nice little niche.
3rd row usage is extremely rare IMO...
For most 3 row SUVs you can only for children who are old enough to not be in a car seat but not yet fully grown either - out some extremely limber adults you really don't like... Every then if you found passengers it will be for a short drive and under the occasion when you don't need practically any use of the cargo area
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 04, 2020, 07:07:53 PM
I wonder what proportion of three-row SUV buyers actually use the third row and, if so, how often. I agree about the Outback - it's a station wagon. Nothing wrong with that - a nice little niche.
Quote from: r0tor on October 04, 2020, 07:44:02 PM
3rd row usage is extremely rare IMO...
For most 3 row SUVs you can only for children who are old enough to not be in a car seat but not yet fully grown either - out some extremely limber adults you really don't like... Every then if you found passengers it will be for a short drive and under the occasion when you don't need practically any use of the cargo area
I used the third row in my prior Buick Enclave and current Infiniti QX56 quite a bit. I've myself sat in the Buick Enclave 3rd row for a 10 hour trip (although I was post pulling an all nighter shift in the hospital and slept the whole time).
3rd row for adults in most 3 row SUVs is not comfortable but it's doable unless you're very tall and/or fat. Some are quite a bit better than others though. Prior generation Tahoe/Yukon weren't comfortable at all because your knees would be up by your chin. Current new generation has fixed that. Expedition/Navigator has always had pretty decent third row seats. Highlander is very small. Acura MDX is small. Audi Q7 is small. Honda Pilot is OK. GM Traverse, Acadia, Enclave are decent. None are as roomy as a minivan obviously.
They're super handy if you have more than 2 kids or elderly parents and kids. You don't have to take two cars to your destination. Plus carpooling to kid's sports practices is much easier.
We use our third row probably 2% of the time which while a really low percentage it's those times you need it, you really miss it if you don't have it. For people without kids it's not necessary or desired probably.
Back in the 1970s and 80s, you would just stick extra kids in the back of the station wagon. Make a nice bed for them surrounded by luggage. Newton's laws of physics in an accident be damned. I remember in 8th grade going on a school competition. The vice principal drove us in his woody wagon. The math teacher sat in the passenger seat. Two kids in the back seat. Me and another kid in the trunk. 4 hour drive back and forth.
Yeah my parents have used the third row in pilot whenever grand kids (my brother,) are around. So every month or two.... But day to day it's just the two of them.
My kids are thousands of miles away - it's just the two of us & the elderly pooch. The rear knee room in a mid-size SUV is more appealing than a third row.
What sparked this was a family that just moved in here who have a new Edge - seemed to me to be in the Goldilocks zone - bit of elbow room, not too big & not too small.
Discovery Sport had really good rear leg room thanks to being able to move the rear bench seat
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 05, 2020, 05:48:22 AM
My kids are thousands of miles away - it's just the two of us & the elderly pooch. The rear knee room in a mid-size SUV is more appealing than a third row.
What sparked this was a family that just moved in here who have a new Edge - seemed to me to be in the Goldilocks zone - bit of elbow room, not too big & not too small.
I hear ya- your quest is about what mine will be some day.
I want to keep Minivan for space, Miata for fun/ commuting. For middle car I'd go with same as you're looking at, or something like a Bolt. It's amazing how much easier Impreza is to get in an out of than Miata. And how much easier it is to just slide into Odyssey compared to Impreza....
hmmmm the towing capacity on this and I'm a sucker for sunroofs......
https://augusta.craigslist.org/cto/d/north-augusta-land-rover-discovery-ii-se/7208267141.html
(Totally not shopping for SUV or Truck right now though)
Would this be reliable with the mileage/ age? (this particular one looks like it's had paint/ body damage).
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on October 05, 2020, 08:11:38 PM
hmmmm the towing capacity on this and I'm a sucker for sunroofs......
https://augusta.craigslist.org/cto/d/north-augusta-land-rover-discovery-ii-se/7208267141.html
(Totally not shopping for SUV or Truck right now though)
Would this be reliable with the mileage/ age? (this particular one looks like it's had paint/ body damage).
That will be a pit ... a money pit :lol: