4Runner Vs. Grand Cherokee

[2o6]

Up until the latest rav4 the Toyota softroader system is only capable of delivering 10-15% of full engine torque to the rear wheels and automatically disengages above 15mph.

It's crap.

Perfectly fine for getting unstuck. Besides, drive wheels barely matter when driving on city streets at the speed limit.

[MX793]

Up until the latest rav4 the Toyota softroader system is only capable of delivering 10-15% of full engine torque to the rear wheels and automatically disengages above 15mph.

It's crap.

My RAV is 2-generations old ('06-'12 model)...

4x4 lock works at speeds up to 20 or 25 mph, after which it goes back to regular AWD.  Not sure whether the AWD completely de-couples after a certain speed.  If it does, it's at a high enough speed that I don't care or it makes no meaningful difference in day to day driving.  If traction conditions are so poor that you need AWD to make it through, odds are you aren't going to be traveling more than 30 mph anyway.

[FoMoJo]

Perfectly fine for getting unstuck. Besides, drive wheels barely matter when driving on city streets at the speed limit.

Not so good for plowing through 3 foot snowbanks I imagine. 

[r0tor]

My RAV is 2-generations old ('06-'12 model)...

4x4 lock works at speeds up to 20 or 25 mph, after which it goes back to regular AWD.  Not sure whether the AWD completely de-couples after a certain speed.  If it does, it's at a high enough speed that I don't care or it makes no meaningful difference in day to day driving.  If traction conditions are so poor that you need AWD to make it through, odds are you aren't going to be traveling more than 30 mph anyway.

Correct, it's crap

[MX793]

Correct, it's crap

Found some data on my generation specifically.  No cutoff speed given for AWD being totally disabled.

4x4 lock gives you true 4x4 up to 25 mph.  After that it goes into "AWD Auto" whereby it will transfer power to the rear axle when slip is detected at the front wheels.  IIRC, up to at least 50%, regardless of speed.  Not sure why you think this setup is "crap" for street use.  When, on the street, have you been traveling more than 30 mph and needed slam the transfer case into 4WD in a traditional 4x4?

From what I can tell, the older RAVs were similar except the earliest first generation models with A/T transmissions lacked the 4x4 lock button (it was added part way through the first generation).  The first generation, when fitted with a manual gearbox, maintained a permanent 50/50 split similar to M/T Subarus.

Even left in "AWD auto", the system provides noticeably more traction than something with a single driven axle.  It will shuffle at least 50% to the rear axle.  This is more than enough to confidently tackle roads with a few inches of snow on them.

Your assertion that, prior to the latest model, Toyota's soft reader AWD only provided 15% torque to the rear axle, and then only at speeds under 15 mph is patently false.  You get a locking center diff up to 25 mph (which is a lot faster than 15), and on demand rear axle power at speeds above that.

[AutobahnSHO]

A lot of the auto magic-ness of these is to prevent dummies from shredding transmissions.

My 78 Subaru Wagon had a separate shifter next to the transmission, a giant "4WD" light on the dash when it was down, and big warning on the visor that driving in "4WD" on dry paved surfaces would damage the transmission.

But man that little beater with stupid low 1st gear could power up so much dirt and snow and mud in "4WD" mode.

And have I told y'all this month the spare tire was next to the carberator intake??.... 

[Eye of the Tiger]

A lot of the auto magic-ness of these is to prevent dummies from shredding transmissions.

My 78 Subaru Wagon had a separate shifter next to the transmission, a giant "4WD" light on the dash when it was down, and big warning on the visor that driving in "4WD" on dry paved surfaces would damage the transmission.

But man that little beater with stupid low 1st gear could power up so much dirt and snow and mud in "4WD" mode.

And have I told y'all this month the spare tire was next to the carberator intake??.... 

They can be automagic without being nearly useless. Some of the Honda/Acuras have a 4wd lock that works under a certain speed. That should be a standard feature on all AWD systems.

[FoMoJo]

They can be automagic without being nearly useless. Some of the Honda/Acuras have a 4wd lock that works under a certain speed. That should be a standard feature on all AWD systems.

What does it lock?

[r0tor]

Since the original suggestion was Lexus...

Here is the 1wd Lexus system
https://youtu.be/Qu55hzeCGWY
https://youtu.be/toOieWu0HS8

[r0tor]

Pos highlander "lock"
https://youtu.be/7mUtiJgBTnU

[Eye of the Tiger]

What does it lock?

The "center" differential. I don't think the front or rear diffs will lock, but the SHAWD models have some trickery going on.

[2o6]

Since the original suggestion was Lexus...

Here is the 1wd Lexus system
https://youtu.be/Qu55hzeCGWY
https://youtu.be/toOieWu0HS8

None of this is anywhere near as relevant as you're making it out to be. Two driven axles are better than one, even if traction management on the Toyota systems is mediocre, it's better than a simple 2WD car. Benzboy's car will remain on road, and Toyota and Honda AWD systems are more than capable for giving extra assistance in bad weather. 

[MX793]

Since the original suggestion was Lexus...

Here is the 1wd Lexus system
https://youtu.be/Qu55hzeCGWY
https://youtu.be/toOieWu0HS8

Video one is not a scenario anyone will ever encounter in normal street driving.  Can't say I've ever tried to drive my vehicle diagonally up a loading ramp, or had reason to.  It's certainly a demonstration of why said soft-roader systems are not suited to off-roading, which everyone is in agreement these systems are not designed for.

Not sure how video 2 illustrates that the system "sucks".  So long as either the TCS is left on or the AWD lock is on, the vehicle is able to propel itself from a stop pretty effectively.  Certainly better than a vehicle with a single driven axle on similar tires would fare.

Pos highlander "lock"
https://youtu.be/7mUtiJgBTnU

Again, this isn't a scenario one would encounter in street driving.

I see both one front and one rear wheel spinning on the dirt slope.  A proper 4x4 with open front and rear diffs and similar suspension articulation would perform no better.

[FoMoJo]

The "center" differential. I don't think the front or rear diffs will lock, but the SHAWD models have some trickery going on.

Sounds the same as my '01 Escape.  It had a center differential that would lock when detecting slippage at the front, but there was also a switch that,  when set to 4WD, would lock it.  Only to be be used on slippery surfaces as turning would create stress between front and rear.

Had a similar setup on my '78 Bronco "part time/full time" was how it was referred to.

[Soup DeVille]

Since the original suggestion was Lexus...

Here is the 1wd Lexus system
https://youtu.be/Qu55hzeCGWY
https://youtu.be/toOieWu0HS8

Articulation ramp testing one of these is like judging the ability of a fish to ride a bicycle.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Sounds the same as my '01 Escape.  It had a center differential that would lock when detecting slippage at the front, but there was also a switch that,  when set to 4WD, would lock it.  Only to be be used on slippery surfaces as turning would create stress between front and rear.

Had a similar setup on my '78 Bronco "part time/full time" was how it was referred to.

IIRC, they did away with the lock button on later models.

[r0tor]

None of this is anywhere near as relevant as you're making it out to be. Two driven axles are better than one, even if traction management on the Toyota systems is mediocre, it's better than a simple 2WD car. Benzboy's car will remain on road, and Toyota and Honda AWD systems are more than capable for giving extra assistance in bad weather. 

1 single wheel spinning on a system with 3 open diffs like this effectively renders the entire drivetrain useless

[r0tor]

Articulation ramp testing one of these is like judging the ability of a fish to ride a bicycle.

It's not an articulation test - it's a test of how the awd system compensates for a loss of traction with 1 or 2 wheels.  Losing traction of a couple wheels is well withing the norms of driving in snow

[MX793]

It's not an articulation test - it's a test of how the awd system compensates for a loss of traction with 1 or 2 wheels.  Losing traction of a couple wheels is well withing the norms of driving in snow

Lose traction with one front and one rear on a "proper" 4x4 with open front and rear diffs and it's not going anywhere, either.

[r0tor]

Lose traction with one front and one rear on a "proper" 4x4 with open front and rear diffs and it's not going anywhere, either.

Oh really... This is just a run of the mill awd
https://youtu.be/n-uAtG9gCvM

Better than average AWD...
https://youtu.be/8vjUfo05GEs

Amazing system...
https://youtu.be/X4fbNiX6BFI

[r0tor]

The best systems out there include locking or limited slip diffs in combination with awd systems that are capable of delivering 100% of ENGINE (not "available") torque to either axel in addition to an advanced traction control system... See range rovers and some JGCs, some 4Runners, ect

A step down eliminates the diffs from above and just uses traction control.  A number of decent off-roaders with minimal option packages use this... Like a JGC, Discovery, 4Runner, ect base models

Lower level systems have open diffs and awd systems with (usually) rear axels and diffs that are only rated for a fraction of the engines full torque.  They can still be OK with a decent traction control system.  Many cute Utes fall into this.

Total crap systems (like the Lexus) have weak awd systems that can barely send any torque to the rear combined with a disgrace of a traction control system.

[2o6]

Okay.


Anyways, I think an NX or RX are def worth a look, they're quiet, generally reliable, good resale, and pretty spacious for what they are. The AWD system will also help out in snow.

[MX793]

None of those tests in any way represent real road conditions.  The only video shown that actually represents what you'd encounter on the road was the Lexus actually taking off on a slippery road, and it was fine.  Significantly better than a vehicle with a single driven axle would perform.  Ergo, the AWD system is not "useless".  A "useless" AWD system would perform no better than a single driven axle.

[Soup DeVille]

It's not an articulation test - it's a test of how the awd system compensates for a loss of traction with 1 or 2 wheels.  Losing traction of a couple wheels is well withing the norms of driving in snow

No, having two wheels with zero traction and two with rubber-on-dry-asphalt traction while driving up a 50% grade is Not in any way normal in snowy on road conditions.

[r0tor]

No, having two wheels with zero traction and two with rubber-on-dry-asphalt traction while driving up a 50% grade is Not in any way normal in snowy on road conditions.

Pull off the road onto a snowy shoulder

[r0tor]

None of those tests in any way represent real road conditions.  The only video shown that actually represents what you'd encounter on the road was the Lexus actually taking off on a slippery road, and it was fine.  Significantly better than a vehicle with a single driven axle would perform.  Ergo, the AWD system is not "useless".  A "useless" AWD system would perform no better than a single driven axle.

The video still shows a massive amount of front wheel spin compared to the rear during "lock"

Benzy started the thread to find the best SUVs for handling significant snow in the mountains.  Why continue to hold on to half ass awd systems?

[FoMoJo]

IIRC, they did away with the lock button on later models.

Yes.

[Soup DeVille]

Pull off the road onto a snowy shoulder

And you'll have reduced traction on all four wheels, not two only.

[Soup DeVille]

The video still shows a massive amount of front wheel spin compared to the rear during "lock"

Benzy started the thread to find the best SUVs for handling significant snow in the mountains.  Why continue to hold on to half ass awd systems?

On mountain Roads: not rock crawling up them.

[MX793]

The video still shows a massive amount of front wheel spin compared to the rear during "lock"

Benzy started the thread to find the best SUVs for handling significant snow in the mountains.  Why continue to hold on to half ass awd systems?

He never confirmed how much snow he actually deals with.  He likely doesn't need "the best" all-terrain system on the market.  If you're not blazing trails through really deep, heavy snow, most AWD systems are plenty adequate to get you where you're going.  If you live in some remote mountain cabin that gets daily snowfall or regular heavy snowfall and the roads only get plowed 3 days a week, yeah, you need something serious.  If your typical winter road only has a dusting to maybe 3" or 4" of snow on a bad day, a soft-roader AWD with good snow tires is absolutely enough.