Why don't people buy new sports cars anymore?

Started by 12,000 RPM, March 15, 2018, 01:39:38 PM

Laconian

I think that demographic switched to CUVs pretty enthusiastically.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

MX793

Quote from: Soup DeVille on March 20, 2018, 03:22:47 PM
Probe GT/ Celica GT are kind of another dying class of cars that you don't see much of anymore. Things like the Mazda 6 or Camry V6 seem like about as close as you'll get today.

The Probe/Celica/MX-6/Prelude/240SX/DSM/etc segment were arguably pony cars.  Sporty small coupe based on a pedestrian sedan platform (except the 240SX).  They competed with the base Mustang and Camaro (or even the lower end of the V8 trims in terms of price in some cases).  Speaking of, in the first half of the 90s, Non V8 Mustangs had either the 105 hp 2.3L 4-banger (later Fox generation) or the 145 hp Essex V6 (early SN95) and Camaros had either the 140 hp 3.1 V6 (Gen3) or the 160 hp 3.4 V6 (Gen4).
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

12,000 RPM

For good reason in my opinion. Cars that sacrifice as much as those couples did in practicality have to pay back with more than looks.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Gotta-Qik-C7

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 20, 2018, 06:08:11 PM
For good reason in my opinion. Cars that sacrifice as much as those couples did in practicality have to pay back with more than looks.
Who cares about practicality when buying a 2 door sports car! I'm sure people knew ahead of time that their Celica wouldn't hold as much crap as a Camry! People now a days want one vehicle to carry passengers like a Minivan, Haul like a HD Sierra and handle like a Huracan no matter the weather! They're all Spoiled brats if you ask me! LOL!!!!
2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

r0tor

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 20, 2018, 02:13:31 PM
Probe GT/MX-6 were the same car and had a whopping 164HP. Also not economy cars by any stretch
No Celica GT ever had more than 134HP.
Mid 90s Civic Si had 125HP.
Already mentioned GS-R.
240SX had 155HP and was not an economy car.
Already mentioned DSMs.

Since there are too many to name lets hear some others. 325iS? 3000GT? Corvette Z06? :lol:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/toyota-thunder-trd-celica-gt-s-road-test
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

Quote from: MX793 on March 20, 2018, 01:42:22 PM
None of those are economy cars.

Economy cars = Civic, Corolla, Sentra, Escort, Mirage, Cavalier, Tercel, 323/Protege, Elantra, Accent, Festiva, Metro, Neon, Impreza, etc...

You said economy or subcompact... I said hatches and econo cars.  All of the cars I listed apply to one or both criteria... and yes they are all econo cars as all of them had far far more premium offerings
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

#67
Quote from: r0tor on March 20, 2018, 07:30:00 PM
You said economy or subcompact... I said hatches and econo cars.  All of the cars I listed apply to one or both criteria... and yes they are all econo cars as all of them had far far more premium offerings

No, I said economy car, compact or subcompact segment (lest you toss in something like a mid 90s Taurus).  The cars you listed were not economy cars.  In their base trims, with base engines, they were priced near the top end of the econo car class.  In their upper trims, they were priced comparably with V8 Mustangs and Camaros (not economy cars).  If you want to argue their base trims were "economy cars", fine.  None of them made even 150 hp in their base trims.  The 4 banger Probe/MX-6 made 130 hp.  Excluding the rare and expensive All-Trac Celica of the early 90s, no Celica before '99 made over 135 hp.  The base ST made ~105 hp and the upmarket GT and GT-S trims made 130-135 from a 2.2L.  Base Integras were ~140 hp.  Base 1st gen DSMs made either 92 or 130 hp from either a 1.8L or 2.0L engine depending on year, 2nd gens got the 130 hp motor as base in the later 90s.  The Civic Si of the first half of the 90s was 125 hp.  It didn't see 150+ until 1999 when they revived the nameplate with a 160 hp engine.  The 240SX was priced above the "economy car" price segment even in base trim.  Before '91, it only made 140 hp.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

12,000 RPM

Quote from: r0tor on March 20, 2018, 07:19:36 PM
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/toyota-thunder-trd-celica-gt-s-road-test
Since when is 2000 part of the 80s and early 90s

Dont do this man, take the L like a man and keep it pushing.

"Hatches and econo cars have had 150-200hp since the early 90 or late 80s. "

Patently false. Let's move on.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MX793

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 20, 2018, 06:08:11 PM
For good reason in my opinion. Cars that sacrifice as much as those couples did in practicality have to pay back with more than looks.

Most of them were quite fun to drive.

I think this notion that any sporty car needs to be supremely capable is part of the problem with the segment.  Even in the early days of sports cars, sports cars weren't necessarily the fastest things on the road.  An old MG or Fiat Roadster would get left in the dust by many family cars of the 60s.  But they were light and tossable and fun.  As sporty cars have become increasingly more capable, they are less fun on the street.

I feel it's the same problem the sportbike segment had for many years.  Manufacturers kept chasing numbers and finally you had sportbikes that were exceedingly hardcore and unfriendly to beginners.  They lost sight of the fun in favor of filling out the stat sheet.  Now we're seeing simpler, more friendly entry level sportbikes again.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

r0tor

Quote from: MX793 on March 20, 2018, 08:11:11 PM
That's a GT-S, not a GT.  And it came out in the late 90s (1999).

I wrote GTS?  Do I need to remember from 20 years ago there was a hyphen???
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

#71
Quote from: MX793 on March 20, 2018, 08:24:50 PM
No, I said economy car, compact or subcompact segment (lest you toss in something like a mid 90s Taurus).  The cars you listed were not economy cars.  In their base trims, with base engines, they were priced near the top end of the econo car class.  In their upper trims, they were priced comparably with V8 Mustangs and Camaros (not economy cars).  If you want to argue their base trims were "economy cars", fine.  None of them made even 150 hp in their base trims.  The 4 banger Probe/MX-6 made 130 hp.  Excluding the rare and expensive All-Trac Celica of the early 90s, no Celica before '99 made over 135 hp.  The base ST made ~105 hp and the upmarket GT and GT-S trims made 130-135 from a 2.2L.  Base Integras were ~140 hp.  Base 1st gen DSMs made either 92 or 130 hp from either a 1.8L or 2.0L engine depending on year, 2nd gens got the 130 hp motor as base in the later 90s.  The Civic Si of the first half of the 90s was 125 hp.  It didn't see 150+ until 1999 when they revived the nameplate with a 160 hp engine.  The 240SX was priced above the "economy car" price segment even in base trim.  Before '91, it only made 140 hp.

How the f is a Probe GT a pony car - it was a fwd "sport compact" which we now call a "hot hatch".... and oh by the way, it sat below the Mustang

The Civic is an econo box.  The probe, Celica, DSMs, and all other sport compact cats directly competed either the 2 door Civic.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

Holy crap... Calling a sport compact a pony car in the mid to late 90s would start a brawl
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on March 20, 2018, 08:38:34 PM
How the f is a Probe GT a pony car - it was a fwd "sport compact" which we now call a "hot hatch".... and oh by the way, it sat below the Mustang

The Civic is an econo box.  The probe, Celica, DSMs, and all other sport compact cats directly competed either the 2 door Civic.

The Probe was originally slated to replace the Mustang (ergo, it was designed to fill the role of a pony car), lest we forget...  Pricing actually heavily overlapped with the Mustang.  The Probe in '93 cost $12.8K in base trim and $15.1K in GT trim.  The Mustang LX5.0 of that year was $14.8K and the GT was 15.8K (base LX was under 12K).  Even if we look at '94, when the SN95 came out and was a fair bit more than the Fox, the Probe was 13.9K or 16.2K and the Mustang was 13.6K for the base and $17.5K for the V8. 

A Turbo DSM in '94 was $18.6K for the FWD model and over $20K for the AWD.  Not even close to an econo car.  '93 240SX was $15K for the base model and $17.5K for the SE.  Again, well outside of econocar.  IIRC, a top of the line, fully loaded Civic EX was like 15K then.

A liftback is not rightly a hatchback.  90s Civic Si was a hot hatch.  The VW GTI is a hot hatch.  Mazdaspeed 3 is a hot hatch.  A DSM is not a hot hatch any more than a liftback Mustang or a Camaro or Corvette is.  They were called "sport compacts" in their day because people didn't seem to want to use the pony car label for something that wasn't from an American brand (or something that wasn't RWD).  In spirit, they were pony cars.  Similar pricing, similar concept to the original Mustang (sporty coupe built on an economy car platform).
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

12,000 RPM

Quote from: MX793 on March 20, 2018, 08:36:03 PM
Most of them were quite fun to drive.

I think this notion that any sporty car needs to be supremely capable is part of the problem with the segment.  Even in the early days of sports cars, sports cars weren't necessarily the fastest things on the road.  An old MG or Fiat Roadster would get left in the dust by many family cars of the 60s.  But they were light and tossable and fun.  As sporty cars have become increasingly more capable, they are less fun on the street.

I feel it's the same problem the sportbike segment had for many years.  Manufacturers kept chasing numbers and finally you had sportbikes that were exceedingly hardcore and unfriendly to beginners.  They lost sight of the fun in favor of filling out the stat sheet.  Now we're seeing simpler, more friendly entry level sportbikes again.
I don't know that a sports car has to be supremely capable to justify itself.... for example I think the Miata and BRZ are good balances/offerings. My thing with cars like the MX-6 and Celica was that they existed alongside sedans with the same engines that cost about the same (or less?). MX-6 was fun to drive, sure. Was it any more fun to drive than the 626 with the same engine, or the Contour with Ford's equivalents? Doubt it. Was the Celica more fun to drive than the Camry when it had it's 2.2, or the Corolla with its xZZ engine? Maybe by a hair, but the practical tradeoff was so huge the calculus didn't quite even out for most people.

Bit by bit people and manufacturers had the realization that fun to drive didn't have to equal a sports car or 2+2 coupe. Which I think is a good thing. Doesn't make sense for people to have to choose. I think that, more than anything else, is probably what killed sports/sporty cars.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

Quote from: MX793 on March 20, 2018, 08:59:30 PM
The Probe was originally slated to replace the Mustang (ergo, it was designed to fill the role of a pony car), lest we forget...  Pricing actually heavily overlapped with the Mustang.  The Probe in '93 cost $12.8K in base trim and $15.1K in GT trim.  The Mustang LX5.0 of that year was $14.8K and the GT was 15.8K (base LX was under 12K).  Even if we look at '94, when the SN95 came out and was a fair bit more than the Fox, the Probe was 13.9K or 16.2K and the Mustang was 13.6K for the base and $17.5K for the V8. 

A Turbo DSM in '94 was $18.6K for the FWD model and over $20K for the AWD.  Not even close to an econo car.  '93 240SX was $15K for the base model and $17.5K for the SE.  Again, well outside of econocar.  IIRC, a top of the line, fully loaded Civic EX was like 15K then.

A liftback is not rightly a hatchback.  90s Civic Si was a hot hatch.  The VW GTI is a hot hatch.  Mazdaspeed 3 is a hot hatch.  A DSM is not a hot hatch any more than a liftback Mustang or a Camaro or Corvette is.  They were called "sport compacts" in their day because people didn't seem to want to use the pony car label for something that wasn't from an American brand (or something that wasn't RWD).  In spirit, they were pony cars.  Similar pricing, similar concept to the original Mustang (sporty coupe built on an economy car platform).

The Probe became a "Probe" because the pony car faithful flipped the hell out at the thought of a fwd 4cyl mostly Japanese car being a "Mustang".

In no way shape or form has a sport compact from the 90s ever or will ever be considered pony cars.  They were the polar opposite and sold and marketed to the polar opposite side of the automotive spectrum.   End of story.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

#76
Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 05:20:37 AM
The Probe became a "Probe" because the pony car faithful flipped the hell out at the thought of a fwd 4cyl mostly Japanese car being a "Mustang".

In no way shape or form has a sport compact from the 90s ever or will ever be considered pony cars.  They were the polar opposite and sold and marketed to the polar opposite side of the automotive spectrum.   End of story.

Polar opposite?  What was the pony car?  The archtype of the breed was a plain compact/economy car platform fitted with a sleek, sporty body.  It used the same same engines as the economy car it was based on, too.  The fact that it was RWD and offered a V8 was merely a coincidence of the times (pretty much every American vehicle in 1964 was RWD and offered a V8, including many "economy cars" like the Falcon and Nova).  The idea was to take a stodgy commuter car and make it sexy and fun.  It wasn't until later that a big emphasis was put on performance and the horsepower wars between the Mustang and Camaro of the later 60s.  The earliest Mustangs had a reputation of being "secretaries' cars" because they weren't fire-breathing, hairy-chested brutes, but sporty, fun, attractive small cars (very much like the sport compact segment in its day, which also appealed to women).  A pony car does not need to be a serious performance car.  That's a misnomer, and one of the distinguishing differences between a pony car and muscle car.  Muscle cars have to be high performance, big-engine vehicles, pony cars do not.  A Mustang or Camaro without a V8 is still a pony car.  A Chevelle/Malibu without a V8 is not a muscle car.  That later, big block pony cars pushed into muscle car segment territory has led many to associate muscle car and pony car as being the exact same thing.  They aren't.

What were the sport compact class (Probe, MX-6, DSM, Prelude, Celica, etc)?  They were plain, boring economy/family cars fitted with sportier, sexier bodies and characters.  Not just 2-door versions of their mainstream platform-mates (unlike an Accord or Civic coupe, or 2-door Falcon before), but full rebodies.  The original Celicas, before transitioning to FWD along with the cars they shared platforms with, were RWD, like the mainstream models they shared platforms with at the time.  Looked a heck of a lot like a scaled down Mustang of the time, too.  Very much a pony car in its original form and the later versions were of the same spirit, ergo, also pony cars.  The Probe was supposed to be the 4th generation Mustang in the late 80s and, yes, backlash from Mustang fans (particularly from the Mustang as a muscle car, "gotta have dat V8" crowd) about the notion of a Japanese-designed car with FWD and without a V8 being a Mustang caused Ford to change plans.  Doesn't mean it's not a pony car.  Just means that many of the Mustang faithful/traditionalists didn't like it.  As the traditional muscle car was basically dead by the late 80s, the V8 Mustang and Camaro were kind of the closest substitute for the muscle car crowd and that group did not take kindly to losing another affordable, V8 performance platform.  But all of the uniquely bodied sport compacts, like the Probe or MX-6 or Prelude or DSM, were in spirit and essence what the original pony car was built to be.  They were following the exact same formula as the original Mustang.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

r0tor

A sport compact is a sporty version of a compact or subcompact.  They all have roots in econoboxes.  They were all in the lower tier of their brands. There was intense hatred between pony car owners and sport compact owners.  There was a reason after the Probe was dropped as a Mustang candidate it was still produced for 2 generations plus the Cougar afterwards - they were different cars with completely different buyers then the Mustang/Camaro.  They we're about handling and driving Dynamics wrapped in a cheap platform - not about an engine and straight line speed.

There is no way to spin a Civic, Probe, Celica, DSM, 240SX as a pony car.  The idea is contrary to the existence of the cars.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 07:20:45 AM
A sport compact is a sporty version of a compact or subcompact.  They all have roots in econoboxes.  They were all in the lower tier of their brands. There was intense hatred between pony car owners and sport compact owners.  There was a reason after the Probe was dropped as a Mustang candidate it was still produced for 2 generations plus the Cougar afterwards - they were different cars with completely different buyers then the Mustang/Camaro.  They we're about handling and driving Dynamics wrapped in a cheap platform - not about an engine and straight line speed.

There is no way to spin a Civic, Probe, Celica, DSM, 240SX as a pony car.  The idea is contrary to the existence of the cars.

There's intense hatred between different make of pony car owners.  Have you missed the endless Mustang vs Camaro battles, debates, and arguments that have raged for 50 years?  Why would their respective fans treat any other pony car competitor differently?

Pony cars were not originally about big engines and straight line speed, either.  They were about affordable, fun, attractive, sportiness.  The early Mustangs earned their performance chops on road courses, not the strip.  They competed in touring car racing.  A Mustang won the BTCC in 1965.  The first high performance version of the Mustang was the road-racing-focused Shelby GT350.  Only when the Big 3 started dropping big-blocks into them in the late 60s and early 70s, pushing certain trims into the muscle car category, did they start to earn a reputation for being drag-strip bruisers.  A pony car is a pony car regardless of what's under hood.  A '68 Mustang with the straight 6 is as much as pony car as a '68 with a 390 big-block under hood.  And as the traditional muscle cars, your Chargers and Chevelles and Torinos, died out in the late 70s and 80s, the V8 Mustangs and Camaros were the last bastions of cheap V8 power and that's where the muscle-car crowd ended up turning.  Which in turn left a large portion of the Mustang/Camaro/Firebird segment buyers as members of the "gotta have a V8", "Spend my Thursday nights at the drag strip" crowd.  These guys weren't pony car fans, they were muscle car fans.  These are the same people that turned their noses up at base Mustangs and Camaros not fitted V8 engines and derided them as "not real Mustangs/Camaros".  Pony car fans like pony cars, not just the ones with big engines.

Ford was able to sell sport compacts alongside Mustangs for a variety of reasons.  Yes, they did appeal to different types of buyers despite a fair bit of overlap.  One could argue that a 6-cylinder Mustang convertible and a fire-breathing Shelby GT500 in 1969 also appealed to different sorts of buyers.  The sport compacts were more modern in styling.  They had a lower cost of ownership, between better fuel economy and lower insurance rates.  They fared better in wintry conditions for those driving them year-round (except the 240SX).  They were often a bit more refined.  You weren't shamed by the muscle-car crowd for buying one without the big engine, nor did they have the stigma associated with the muscle-car crowd of the time (mullets, rednecks, trailer parks...).  Back before the "gotta have a V8" crew sunk their teeth into the segment, folks who bought "sport compacts" in the 90s were the same sort of folks who bought lower trim, 6-cylinder Mustangs and Camaros/Firebirds back in the 60s and 70s.  The emphasis on cheap straight-line speed over other virtues that defined Fox and SN95 era Mustangs, and 3rd and 4th generation Camaros, was also a result of the wants of muscle car guys who transitioned to buying Mustangs and Camaros after the muscle cars died out.  But the very notion of "fun, sporty car built on mainstream/economy car bones" is the very formula of "pony car".
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

giant_mtb

Quote from: MX793 on March 21, 2018, 08:18:34 AM
There's intense hatred between different make of pony car owners.  Have you missed the endless Mustang vs Camaro battles, debates, and arguments that have raged for 50 years?  Why would their respective fans treat any other pony car competitor differently?

The Ford vs. Chevy debate is one of the most infantile things out there.  LOL YOU DRIVE A FORD YOU MUST LIKE SUCKIN DICK.

r0tor

Holy fuck... Only on carspin would someone argue a Civic SI is a pony car.  "Pony car" in and of itself requires it to be a domestic brand and up until today was a long hood short deck proportion affordable compact car with rwd.  A fwd Japanese sporty compact clearly fits this description. 


But hey, thanks to carspin history revisionism I'm suddenly a former pony car owner   :popcorn:  :muffin:
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Soup DeVille

#81
Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 08:41:30 AM
Holy fuck... Only on carspin would someone argue a Civic SI is a pony car.  "Pony car" in and of itself requires it to be a domestic brand and up until today was a long hood short deck proportion affordable compact car with rwd.  A fwd Japanese sporty compact clearly fits this description. 


But hey, thanks to carspin history revisionism I'm suddenly a former pony car owner   :popcorn:  :muffin:

Nobody said a Civic Si. The car being debated about here was a Probe GT.

And yeah, you are.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 08:41:30 AM
Holy fuck... Only on carspin would someone argue a Civic SI is a pony car.  "Pony car" in and of itself requires it to be a domestic brand and up until today was a long hood short deck proportion affordable compact car with rwd.  A fwd Japanese sporty compact clearly fits this description. 


But hey, thanks to carspin history revisionism I'm suddenly a former pony car owner   :popcorn:  :muffin:

Never said the Civic was.  No Civic is a pony car.  I was specifically talking about the uniquely bodied sport compacts based on mainstream platforms (Probe, MX6, DSM, Prelude, Celica).  Cars based on economy car bones but that didn't share aesthetics with their platform mates.  That was the formula of the original Mustang and why a Mustang, regardless of engine option, is a pony car but a Falcon coupe or convertible was never considered such even when fitted with a V8.  The Civic coupe is the same as a Falcon coupe was, a 2-door version compact/economy car with common styling (and often shared body parts).  And a hatchback (as distinct from lifting fastback) is definitely not a pony car.  That's the hot hatch segment.  Now the Integra/RSX, which shared the Civic's platform but with a totally unique aesthetic, I would argue was a pony car.  Existence of the sedan version of older Integra generations would give me some pause on those, though.

By what definition is a pony car limited only to American-branded cars?  Because the arch-type happened to be produced by an American company?  Does that mean that only German cars can be hot hatches because the VW GTI defined the segment (though, like the Mustang, was technically not the first of its kind)?

Is this Mercury a pony car?


Don't conflate the nature of all cars of the 60s with inherent traits of a pony car.  All American cars in the 60s, including economy cars, were RWD.  Practically all of them, including economy cars, offered a V8 engine.  Neither of these are inherent traits of a pony car.  And while the Mustang popularized the "pony car", hence the segment name, it wasn't the first affordable sporty compact car out of America.  The Corvair Monza and first Barracuda both beat it to market, the former by several years, and were both very similar in concept (economy car with a sporty body and character).  The Corvair Monza was, in fact, the car the Mustang was targeting as its chief competitor and is considered a member of the pony car class even though it never had a V8 and didn't even have the engine in teh front.  Regardless, last I checked, the proportions of the Probe, MX6, Integra, Prelude, DSM, 240SX, Celica, et al featured a relatively long hood and relatively short deck rear deck.  So from a general proportions standpoint, these cars fit the mold.

From Wiki (which in turn links to other source material):
QuoteThe cars could carry four people while featuring a sporty design. Many of the offerings came with economical six-cylinder or small V8 engines.[17] The basic two-door "Pony Car" characteristics were thus set:[18][19]

Stylish and sporty long hood, short deck, and "open mouth" styling
Affordable base price (under $2,500 — in 1965 dollar value)
"Off-the-shelf" mass production components
Wide range of often lucrative options to individualize each car
Youth-oriented marketing and advertising

And
QuoteTellingly, while most pony cars were available with more powerful engines and performance packages—enough to propel some into the muscle car realm—the vast majority were sold with six-cylinder engines or ordinary V8s.[20] The initial pony cars "were sporty compact cars for the masses."[21]


And a Celica or Probe or MX6 fails to meet these criteria how, exactly?
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Onslaught

Figured it was because young people don't give a shit about driving any cars period. And they really don't give a shit about sports cars. And youth is what pushed sales of sports cars/coupes back in the day.

Unless you're talking high end stuff.

And in 1993 If you had come into my Ford/Mazda bodyshop and told the Ford guys my MX-3 GS was a pony car they would've called you every bad name in the book.

And if you'd told me that too I'd do the same unless you're way bigger then me. Then I'd do it behind your back.
bah weep granah weep nini bon

r0tor

Quote from: Soup DeVille on March 21, 2018, 09:09:53 AM
Nobody said a Civic Si. The car being debated about here was a Probe GT.

And yeah, you are.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car

Have you read that?
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

Quote from: Onslaught on March 21, 2018, 09:30:37 AM


And in 1993 If you had come into my Ford/Mazda bodyshop and told the Ford guys my MX-3 GS was a pony car they would've called you every bad name in the book.

And if you'd told me that too I'd do the same unless you're way bigger then me. Then I'd do it behind your back.

...How little we knew back then...
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

Quote from: MX793 on March 21, 2018, 09:25:19 AM



And a Celica or Probe or MX6 fails to meet these criteria how, exactly?

By absoliyely defining a segment that was absolutely not a Pony car?

Since you love wiki so much
QuoteThere is no precise definition and the description is applied for marketing purposes to a wide variety of models, but typical "sport compacts" are front engined, front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive coupés, sedans, or hatchbacks driven by a straight-4 gasoline engine. In most cases, they are versions of mass-market cars that are factory produced with additional features and upgrades. Performance-oriented sport compacts generally focus on improving handling and increasing performance by engine efficiency, rather than increasing engine size. Sport compacts often feature external body modifications to improve aerodynamics or house larger wheels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_compact
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MX793

Quote from: Onslaught on March 21, 2018, 09:30:37 AM
Figured it was because young people don't give a shit about driving any cars period. And they really don't give a shit about sports cars. And youth is what pushed sales of sports cars/coupes back in the day.

Unless you're talking high end stuff.

And in 1993 If you had come into my Ford/Mazda bodyshop and told the Ford guys my MX-3 GS was a pony car they would've called you every bad name in the book.

And if you'd told me that too I'd do the same unless you're way bigger then me. Then I'd do it behind your back.

And if you go to a CUV driver today and tell them they're driving a station wagon, they'll probably have a similar response.  Just because people choose to be in denial doesn't make them right. 

There was a certain image associated with the "traditional" pony car segment in the late 80s and 90s that prompted marketers of sport compacts to not want to brand their vehicles as "pony cars", and a certain set of Mustang/Camaro buyers that didn't want to be associated with other sport compacts (the same group that barely tolerated the existence of non-V8 Mustangs/Camaros).  But you can call a duck a "water fowl" all you want, it's no less a duck.  Pony cars are a sub-type of sport compact and many, but not all, cars that were marketed in the 90s merely as "sport compacts" would also fall neatly under the pony car category.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 09:48:55 AM
Have you read that?

Yes; and nowhere did it say either RWD or American made are necessary.

I wouldn't think of a Probe as a pony car either; but its clearly not a hatchback or an economy car. The term I remember was "date car," and the Prelude more or less defined the segment.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on March 21, 2018, 10:01:53 AM
By absoliyely defining a segment that was absolutely not a Pony car?

Since you love wiki so muchhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_compact


Okay "driven by straight 4" then. I can see that to a certain extent; how many 150-200 HP four bangers were there in the early '90s?
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator