http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2017/01/usa-luxury-car-sales-stats-december-2016-year-end.html
I was going to update the "Alpha platform can't catch a break" but looking at this data it appears they aren't alone. Don't get me wrong- they are still in more trouble than others- ATS + CTS are down 20% vs ~12% for the small/medium segment and the Camero is down 35% from last year (though the Challenger and Mustang did no better)
But there are pretty much no winners. 3, C, 5? All down by double digits. Brand new E is down by 9%. In fact its easier to talk about the winners..... Infiniti Q50/Q60 (which were really just flat), new A4, 2 series, new XF, XC70 wagon. Everything else got reamed
On the upside CT6 seems to be doing well..... sadly outselling the less expensive CTS. Hmm. Maybe GM should consolidate the ATS/CTS into one model. Offer something CTS sized for 3 series money. Call it... the CTS! :lol: But yea this was a bit alarming. I said on TTAC the sedan has become the new coupe; crossovers are just curbstomping them in practicality and creeping up on them in value and fuel economy
January is never a great month for car sales. Winter weather tends to keep people from car lots over much of the country.
Numbers Im speaking to are for the whole year of 2016. By comparison subcompact/compact/medium luxury CUVs were all up. Compact luxury CUVs were up 26% :mask:
Going by scalar numbers it's pretty interesting..... small + medium luxury sedans lost 123K; small + medium luxury crossovers gained 131K. Looks like people are ending their leases in sedans and moving right into crossovers :mask:
Quote from: MX793 on February 03, 2017, 10:48:52 AM
January is never a great month for car sales. Winter weather tends to keep people from car lots over much of the country.
Yeah, but when you compare them to
LAST January...
Honda Ridgeline sales are up %204,150 compared to 2015. :lol:
I can't ever see myself buying a sedan as a family car. Once the kids get older, I'll still want an SUV to drive with grandkids (I hope). A future Tesla type sedan over a Tesla type SUV I could do though. Likely better range and driving dynamics.
Quote from: veeman on February 03, 2017, 02:53:55 PM
I can't ever see myself buying a sedan as a family car. Once the kids get older, I'll still want an SUV to drive with grandkids (I hope). A future Tesla type sedan over a Tesla type SUV I could do though. Likely better range and driving dynamics.
I will not be buying another sedan. When the time comes to replace the G37, it will be with a 2-row SUV, with as many driving automation & collision avoidance gizmos optioned in as possible.
Quote from: Morris Minor on February 04, 2017, 09:06:57 PM
I will not be buying another sedan. When the time comes to replace the G37, it will be with a 2-row SUV, with as many driving automation & collision avoidance gizmos optioned in as possible.
Plenty of these on the market to choose from. The advantage, other than elevated driving position, more comfortable seating, is entry and egress of old bones in not having to sink to a lower position.
Quote from: Morris Minor on February 04, 2017, 09:06:57 PM
I will not be buying another sedan. When the time comes to replace the G37, it will be with a 2-row SUV, with as many driving automation & collision avoidance gizmos optioned in as possible.
NOOOOOO get a QX50
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 03, 2017, 10:57:13 AM
Numbers Im speaking to are for the whole year of 2016. By comparison subcompact/compact/medium luxury CUVs were all up. Compact luxury CUVs were up 26% :mask:
Going by scalar numbers it's pretty interesting..... small + medium luxury sedans lost 123K; small + medium luxury crossovers gained 131K. Looks like people are ending their leases in sedans and moving right into crossovers :mask:
SUVs/CUVs and Pick Ups are the new "Luxury" vehicles. And to be honest there are very few sedans that I would spend my money on! Especially AFFORDABLE sedans........
To be completely honest, there's not much extra that a luxury car offers that you can't get in a fully-loaded mainstream car nowadays. Case in point, Infiniti Q50 vs. Nissan Maxima. What does the Infiniti offer that you can't get in a Maxima? RWD. Ok, and a conventional automatic. But the truth is that very few normal people care about those things. But what I did notice when comparing the two cars at the auto show was that the Maxima had a fancier/more modern looking interior (IMO at least)...and people will definitely care about that.
Quote from: Vinsanity on February 05, 2017, 10:49:35 AM
To be completely honest, there's not much extra that a luxury car offers that you can't get in a fully-loaded mainstream car nowadays. Case in point, Infiniti Q50 vs. Nissan Maxima. What does the Infiniti offer that you can't get in a Maxima? RWD. Ok, and a conventional automatic. But the truth is that very few normal people care about those things. But what I did notice when comparing the two cars at the auto show was that the Maxima had a fancier/more modern looking interior (IMO at least)...and people will definitely care about that.
For the last ~15 years the poser class has had a dubious value proposition for most buyers (= non enthusiasts) - it's mostly about the badge so outside that "requirement" most such buyers would be far better served by a loaded Camcord. Now what with the new Maxima, upcoming new Camry, and even the current Accord, the value proposition is slimmer than ever. Really, the only real material value of the poser class to the average buyer is AWD.
Q50 interior is indeed sucky, esp. the infotainment and just the whole of the Q50 is a disappointment, even the RS 400. So much potential but Infiniti blew it - from first (G37) to near last (just ahead of the TLX) in the poser class.
IMO the value of the "poser class" is RWD. Mainstream buyers are too scurred about the rear wheels being driven.
I have a feeling that when the auto loan bubble finally bursts, we'll see more distinction between mainstream and premium brands again as mainstream marques go back to relatively basic equipment levels to keep prices affordable.
Quote from: MX793 on February 05, 2017, 02:27:52 PM
I have a feeling that when the auto loan bubble finally bursts, we'll see more distinction between mainstream and premium brands again as mainstream marques go back to relatively basic equipment levels to keep prices affordable.
That's the thing, Camcords are already very affordable - in fact the most affordable of any segment - nowhere else does a buyer's dollar go further. During the last bust what we saw (esp. in the Camry and Accord) was simply a stall.
What I envision is that premium brands will eschew their poser bait (CLA, 1er, etc.) and oddities (5er GT, GLC coupe, etc.).
Yea, the next bubble pop will cut the chaff for sure. The overwhelming amount of choice in luxury dealers is already beginning to backfire. (http://www.aiada.org/news/first-up/car-dealers-offering-too-much-can-befuddle-shoppers) Most BMW/MB dealerships can't possibly keep 1 of every model on site. What little niche remains will be in the crossover realm where demand warrants it.
A great deal of people order their car.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 05, 2017, 05:10:32 PM
A great deal of people order their car.
I want a GLC 760 X Sport S line five door seven seat coupe-vertible
Quote from: Submariner on February 07, 2017, 05:54:43 AM
I want a GLC 760 X Sport S line five door seven seat coupe-vertible
This is the closest I could come up with.
(https://imgr2.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Mercedes-Maybach-G650-Landaulet-fotoshowBig-ed7b2fc8-1005892.jpg)
(https://imgr3.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Mercedes-Maybach-G650-Landaulet-fotoshowBig-b242cf3-1005898.jpg)
No 6x6 turbo diesel gas V24? No thanks.
I'll be keeping my sedan, thank you. With a Suburban in the fleet, there's no need to replace the BMW with a crossover. And I'd rather daily the sedan than an SUV/CUV. And carry the grandkids around in the BMW, too.
I also prefer the styling of a good sedan like the E38 over a 2 box SUV/CUV.
Im all about dat 2 BOX LIFE
Quote from: 68_427 on February 05, 2017, 09:23:42 AM
NOOOOOO get a QX50
God, I hate Infiniti's new naming scheme. I have no fucking clue what car that is.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 07, 2017, 10:00:40 AM
God, I hate Infiniti's new naming scheme. I have no fucking clue what car that is.
It's weird how their 3-Series fighter now has a badging that is closer to this...
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/stock/900x600/257152.jpg)
Quote from: ChrisV on February 07, 2017, 09:50:59 AM
I'll be keeping my sedan, thank you. With a Suburban in the fleet, there's no need to replace the BMW with a crossover. And I'd rather daily the sedan than an SUV/CUV. And carry the grandkids around in the BMW, too.
I also prefer the styling of a good sedan like the E38 over a 2 box SUV/CUV.
I think you've missed the point completely. Not sure how your 15 year old sedan is relevant to new car sales.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 07, 2017, 10:51:50 AM
I think you've missed the point completely. Not sure how your 15 year old sedan is relevant to new car sales.
"People don't want sedans" Not necessarily true, as the booming
used sedan market shows. Manufacturers are switching new manufacturing over to crossovers, advertising them heavily, and pricing their sedans out of the market, so of COURSE new car buyers will gravitate to the better deals that are available in the CUV market, especially as they've been indoctrinated that a pile of crotchfruit needs to be in one in order to be safe. But also look at what regulatory environment makes it more advantageous for the manufactures to
make CUVs...
But I won't buy a new crossover any more than I need a used one. But I HAVE bought a new sedan recently, and would do so again.
Yeah, CAFE regs make it more lucrative to make CUVs since the get classified as light trucks.
Quote from: ChrisV on February 07, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
"People don't want sedans" Not necessarily true, as the booming used sedan market shows. Manufacturers are switching new manufacturing over to crossovers, advertising them heavily, and pricing their sedans out of the market, so of COURSE new car buyers will gravitate to the better deals that are available in the CUV market, especially as they've been indoctrinated that a pile of crotchfruit needs to be in one in order to be safe. But also look at what regulatory environment makes it more advantageous for the manufactures to make CUVs...
But I won't buy a new crossover any more than I need a used one. But I HAVE bought a new sedan recently, and would do so again.
How are sedans being priced out of the market? You definitely get the best bang for the buck in the Camcord category.
Quote from: MrH on February 07, 2017, 01:56:17 PM
How are sedans being priced out of the market? You definitely get the best bang for the buck in the Camcord category.
Yea, exactly what I was going to say. Crossovers also depreciate less, so they are in higher demand on the used market too. It's not CAFE, it's not the manufacturers, it's not some grand Illuminati conspiracy.... it's the market. Crossovers are booming because people want them. Companies that don't build what people want go the way of Suzuki/Lotus/etc.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 05, 2017, 05:10:32 PM
A great deal of people order their car.
Only because they finance it - take away irrational financing and leasing (which is what should have happened last time, and may happen the next) and very few will order their cars. In fact, the whole of the US auto industry will collapse (my bet is it'd scale back at least 40%). It would adjust over time with less expensive vehicles probably, but would never fully recover.
People would just keep cars for longer (as they probably should)
Used cars would get insanely expensive further deepening that cycle. US auto market would begin to resemble Cuba's
Quote from: MrH on February 07, 2017, 09:58:36 AM
Im all about dat 2 BOX LIFE
Coke bottle plus two-box.
Child's toy + 3 box.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 07, 2017, 06:53:52 PM
People would just keep cars for longer (as they probably should)
Used cars would get insanely expensive further deepening that cycle. US auto market would begin to resemble Cuba's
If used cars went up a bunch that would oddly enough make new cars more affordable (via leasing in particular), thereby reducing the demand of the used cars and increasing demand for new cars until a new balance is found.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 07, 2017, 05:31:27 PM
Only because they finance it - take away irrational financing and leasing (which is what should have happened last time, and may happen the next) and very few will order their cars. In fact, the whole of the US auto industry will collapse (my bet is it'd scale back at least 40%). It would adjust over time with less expensive vehicles probably, but would never fully recover.
Please explain the relationship between irrational financing and propensity to order. If anything, one would think there would be a negative relationship as people who finance cars to the hilt are likely to be more willing to take the loaded model already on the lot (vs picking just the options they want) and less willing to wait 6-8 weeks for their car to be built to order.
Quote from: TBR on February 08, 2017, 06:57:30 AM
Please explain the relationship between irrational financing and propensity to order. If anything, one would think there would be a negative relationship as people who finance cars to the hilt are likely to be more willing to take the loaded model already on the lot (vs picking just the options they want) and less willing to wait 6-8 weeks for their car to be built to order.
Ordered cars cost more IRL - incentives/rebates typically only apply on the day of delivery and dealers are less incentivized to sell them (zero carrying costs).
Many incentives and rebates these days only apply if you finance or lease...
Quote from: MX793 on February 08, 2017, 10:47:50 AM
Many incentives and rebates these days only apply if you finance or lease...
That's what I was thinking. :huh:
A4 was custom ordered. Not financed. Didn't get any sweet deals.
Quote from: MX793 on February 08, 2017, 10:47:50 AM
Many incentives and rebates these days only apply if you finance or lease...
Actually, it violates franchise law to offer incentives and rebates WRT (in-house) financing - that is why deals are typically shown as "super low 2.9% or $2,500 cash back!"
Quote from: SJ_GTI on February 08, 2017, 05:49:34 AM
If used cars went up a bunch that would oddly enough make new cars more affordable (via leasing in particular), thereby reducing the demand of the used cars and increasing demand for new cars until a new balance is found.
Cougs deems leasing to be irrational though. I don't think anything short of a cash purchase would be legal/moral in Cougsland.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on February 08, 2017, 05:49:34 AM
If used cars went up a bunch that would oddly enough make new cars more affordable (via leasing in particular), thereby reducing the demand of the used cars and increasing demand for new cars until a new balance is found.
Damn those markets! So efficient! :lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on February 08, 2017, 10:00:27 AM
Ordered cars cost more IRL - incentives/rebates typically only apply on the day of delivery and dealers are less incentivized to sell them (zero carrying costs).
Quote from: GoCougs on February 08, 2017, 11:17:38 AM
Actually, it violates franchise law to offer incentives and rebates WRT (in-house) financing - that is why deals are typically shown as "super low 2.9% or $2,500 cash back!"
Lots of dealerships offer incentives in conjunction with brokering easy finance terms (some in house, some not) but you're kind of proving your own point. Bespoke orders will, on average, command higher purchase prices, require cash deposits, result in long wait times, etc...all of which pushes buyers in general, but especially those dependent on financing, towards whatever current deal is on the lots.
Kevin's premise is simply incorrect: "lots" of US buyers do not build-to-order period. It's a minuscule percentage of the US market. Every 20 years or so there's a big push to revive it that dies a slow and quiet death.
Most mainstreamer and entry level luxury cars don't need to be special ordered. The dealer can find one at a nearby dealer with the options you want if they don't already have it. For cars under 50 grand, I think special ordering from the factory is mostly done for pony cars and Jeeps where buyers are super picky and there's a ton of options available.
Quote from: veeman on February 13, 2017, 09:03:45 PM
Most mainstreamer and entry level luxury cars don't need to be special ordered. The dealer can find one at a nearby dealer with the options you want if they don't already have it. For cars under 50 grand, I think special ordering from the factory is mostly done for pony cars and Jeeps where buyers are super picky and there's a ton of options available.
For Japanese cars, where most factory options are bundled and the order sheet doesn't have many check-boxes, that's true. The Germans offer a lot of customization in terms of options, which makes finding one exactly the way you want on the lot much harder.