That greenhouse is irritating. The way the C-pillar is resolved is so incredibly cheap looking.
https://www.netcarshow.com/cadillac/2020-ct5/
This car directly replaces the CTS, and power comes either from a 2.0T, or a 3.0T. No electrtification or hybrid seemingly available.
It's like Cadillac isn't trying. WTF is going on at GM? Five years ago, they were on the ball about introducing cars that looked and performed good. Now they're releasing yet another ugly sedan that
1. Probably won't sell
2. Is likely mired in production and manufacturing issues and will be axed prolly 18 months from now
3. priced too damn high
https://jalopnik.com/the-2020-cadillac-ct5-is-your-very-turbocharged-cts-rep-1833369834
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--_j0YzGdY--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/l83iu9upxzkkytgta4mn.jpg)
Has pricing been announced? I scrolled through your links and didn't see it...but might have missed it.
I think it looks good overall, but agree that the extra detail on the C-pillar doesn't work.
Looks decent, but yeah, that C-pillar. :confused:
It's almost like it wants to be one of those sedan coupe things, but they really wanted to keep it a normal sedan and not a liftback, so they had to compromise.
I'm having deja vu as the discussion about this on TCL is robust
I agree with you 100% 2o6... IIRC Mark Reuss said Cadillac has no more chances. In many ways this is worse than the cars it replaced. The XT6 is also an embarassment going head to head with the Aviator. And the Navigator is a cut above the aging Escalade. Is anybody home?
This looks as good as some German sedans. And it also looks better than all sedans sold by Lincoln! Including the BLAND Continental! But I agree it won't sell unless GM has it priced below the competition.
That C pillar is awful...
An unsuccessful sedan launch just greases the wheel to abandon cars all together and hop on the CUV/SUV profit gravytrain
What is it? It looks like one of the dumpy-assed Crosstour/Crossover things from Honda/BMW.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 19, 2019, 03:50:11 PM
What is it? It looks like one of the dumpy-assed Crosstour/Crossover things from Honda/BMW.
Looks like it's replacing both the CTS and ATS, so I guess a mid-size sedan.
I kinda like it. Looks better than the current cars, IMO.
I think more cars are going to have that rear shape in the name of fuel economy. It's not the most flattering thing in the world, but I think it's done better here than in most other cars.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--yCrUljcs--/c_scale,dpr_2.0,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/evtmg5ulbbp2q9ypxbms.jpg)
Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 19, 2019, 04:08:00 PM
Looks like it's replacing both the CTS and ATS, so I guess a mid-size sedan.
I kinda like it. Looks better than the current cars, IMO.
I think more cars are going to have that rear shape in the name of fuel economy. It's not the most flattering thing in the world, but I think it's done better here than in most other cars.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--yCrUljcs--/c_scale,dpr_2.0,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/evtmg5ulbbp2q9ypxbms.jpg)
I dunno...
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG161xmv/nlogg1iu1iircsywllfk.jpg)
Looks pretty good to me :huh:
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 19, 2019, 04:14:38 PM
I dunno...
Meh, it's fine. :huh: :lol: I'm not gonna go out and buy one just for the looks, but I also wouldn't avoid getting one for that reason.
But in general, I'm pretty neutral on most modern cars' designs. There aren't many vehicles that I have strong opinions about purely based on looks.
The shape isn't that bad, just that C-pillar
The profile kind of reminds me of the last Dodge Avenger...
Quote from: MX793 on March 19, 2019, 06:46:42 PM
The profile kind of reminds me of the last Dodge Avenger...
Well, when you're the Standard of the World...
The end of the C-pillar just ruins the flow of the otherwise pleasing design.
The front and interior are very nice.
Quote from: MX793 on March 19, 2019, 06:46:42 PM
The profile kind of reminds me of the last Dodge Avenger...
I'm not seeing it
(https://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/10/2015/09/1011-2011-dodge-avenger-side.jpg)
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 20, 2019, 09:27:00 AM
I'm not seeing it
(https://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/10/2015/09/1011-2011-dodge-avenger-side.jpg)
Yeah, same
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 20, 2019, 09:27:00 AM
I'm not seeing it
(https://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/10/2015/09/1011-2011-dodge-avenger-side.jpg)
Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 19, 2019, 04:08:00 PM
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--yCrUljcs--/c_scale,dpr_2.0,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/evtmg5ulbbp2q9ypxbms.jpg)
Well it's, sorta the same colour :huh:.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 20, 2019, 12:02:39 PM
Well it's, sorta the same colour :huh:.
+1
They also both have wheels and windows. They are practically the same car!
They're not even facing the same way. Totally different :lol:
I do think the C-pillar looks a bit Korean. I can't find an exact car that it reminds me of, though.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 19, 2019, 04:39:44 PM
The shape isn't that bad, just that C-pillar
What's so heinous to you about the C-pillar? I don't really care for Cadillacs design language, but the little design flourish on the C-pillar seems pretty innocuous to me. :huh:
I bet the car will look fantastic in Cadillac's metallic black paint on a sunny day. I saw a black ATS the other day and it was a stunner.
One of my college roommates worked on this thing. I change my mind, it looks fantastic. :lol:
Quote from: 93JC on March 20, 2019, 12:10:35 PM
What's so heinous to you about the C-pillar? I don't really care for Cadillacs design language, but the little design flourish on the C-pillar seems pretty innocuous to me. :huh:
That large piece of black shiny plastic masquerading as a window. It looks cheap.
:huh:
Whatevs.
The whole roofline just seems weird. The front and rear are pretty sharp but that side profile is just
a bit awkward looking.
I agree, it looks kind of bulbous. Actually reminds me a lot of the proportions of the Tesla Model 3.
The proportions are fine.
It's lliterally that shiny piece of black plastic that ruins the design.
1. It's huge
2. It looks cheap and amateurish; a comparable BMW, MB, Audi, or Lexus won't resolve the greenhouse in a way that's not so *cheap* looking. The problem isn't the chrome flourish, it's the piece of plastic inside it. The chrome flourish arguably makes it more obvious that a very large corner was cut, designwise.
The rest of the car is *fine* although I'd also argue the way the trunk aperture is resolved is also amateurish and cheap looking, but I'd rather take that over that big glossy triangle.
Also, remember this is basically a production version of the Escala concept.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZBMIgXm.jpg)
Yeah, the c-pillar shape is pretty terrible. It's the same thing my Accord has, which I don't like. The difference is, the Accord at least has a window there. A piece of black plastic looks so tacky.
Sad. So many hits by GM but this is gonna be yet another Caddy that no one is going to buy...
It reminds me of a Nissan Versa sedan
Quote from: 2o6 on March 20, 2019, 01:20:19 PM
Also, remember this is basically a production version of the Escala concept.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZBMIgXm.jpg)
Why the hell couldn't they make the production version look like the concept? The concept looks good. The production version looks like it ran into something that made it short and lumpy looking.
The concept looks like it should be a larger luxo-barge.
Texted my GM buddy about the C-pillar, told him he was fired. :lol: He works in powertrain, though.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 20, 2019, 12:06:41 PM
They're not even facing the same way. Totally different :lol:
I do think the C-pillar looks a bit Korean. I can't find an exact car that it reminds me of, though.
(https://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.3326729.1500049507!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_1200/2018-honda-accord-profile.jpg)
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32094033/cadillac-ct5-v-blackwing-confirmed-2021/
QuoteTo make sure the Blackwing version of the CT5 is up for the fight, Cadillac will fit an updated version of the CTS-V's 6.2-liter supercharged V-8, not the 550-hp twin-turbo 4.2-liter Blackwing V-8.
That's disappointing. :(
How can they call it a Blackwing?
Quote from: FoMoJo on April 20, 2020, 05:25:04 AM
That's disappointing. :(
How can they call it a Blackwing?
Makes no sense! :huh:
Stop complaining!! Its a 650 hp monster that you can get with a 6spd, thats freaking great :lol:
While I can't afford this thing, the CT5-V is also supposedly getting the stick and that at 47K is more in my price range and exciting!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C7 on April 19, 2020, 08:39:15 PM
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32094033/cadillac-ct5-v-blackwing-confirmed-2021/
I don't know who is working the branding and marketing group there, but they need to be reassigned to someplace they can't do further harm. Like sweeping floors.
Blackwing is a performance moniker akin to "AMG" or "NISMO" and is based on the earlier versions of the Caddy crest (which had black birds on it).
Pooprod magic is alive and well - no competitor can match GM's supercharged V8 for power + simplicity + compactness + weight - so this motor is mos def the right choice for the car.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 20, 2020, 10:36:52 AM
Blackwing is a performance moniker akin to "AMG" or "NISMO" and is based on the earlier versions of the Caddy crest (which had black birds on it).
Pooprod magic is alive and well - no competitor can match GM's supercharged V8 for power + simplicity + compactness + weight - so this motor is mos def the right choice for the car.
So they spent years and a small fortune finally developing a modern V8 called the "Blackwing" and the only thing they kept was the name. Just seems really goofy.
I'd be happy to have a CT5 with the 6.2L pooprod and no blower, if I am being honest. Basically a nicer version of the Chevy SS.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 20, 2020, 10:36:52 AM
Blackwing is a performance moniker akin to "AMG" or "NISMO" and is based on the earlier versions of the Caddy crest (which had black birds on it).
Pooprod magic is alive and well - no competitor can match GM's supercharged V8 for power + simplicity + compactness + weight - so this motor is mos def the right choice for the car.
Why is their latest Caddy-exclusive engine also branded "Blackwing" when it is not used in any Blackwing models? Blackwing would be a great moniker for a performance trim, had they not used it for an engine that is used in regular versions of the CT6 and is not used in any of these new "Blackwing" models.
It would be like Ford releasing a new engine called the Cobrajet, putting it in the new Explorer, then building a series of performance versions of their other vehicles called "Cobrajet", but not using the Cobrajet engine in any of them.
I have not been impressed with any car brands' marketing department in the past few years. They're all a mess. Cadillac has been a mess for years and this just continues the status quo.
The 6.2L 650 hp engine is the right choice. Calling the 550 hp engine the Blackwing is the problem.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 20, 2020, 11:51:27 AM
I have not been impressed with any car brands' marketing department in the past few years. They're all a mess. Cadillac has been a mess for years and this just continues the status quo.
The 6.2L 650 hp engine is the right choice. Calling the 550 hp engine the Blackwing is the problem.
Yes, nothing wrong with the LT or LS engine they are using. The problem is the use of the name "Blackwing" as both a trim and an unrelated engine. If they wanted to use "Blackwing" as a trim, they should not have used it as their engine's name, unless they intended to use that engine (or variant thereof) in all Blackwing models. Even then it would have been questionable, but not as confused as what they have now.
I think you guys are getting too caught up in the name. The Blackwing engine was used in such low numbers, and in only one model that no one bought, that no one has any association with it. Its a cool name and Caddy decided that it was better used somewhere else before anyone had mentally associated it with anything else.
Definitely overthinking it. NISMO exhaust, TRD trim, AMG model, etc., etc.
Quote from: Xer0 on April 20, 2020, 01:29:16 PM
I think you guys are getting too caught up in the name. The Blackwing engine was used in such low numbers, and in only one model that no one bought, that no one has any association with it. Its a cool name and Caddy decided that it was better used somewhere else before anyone had mentally associated it with anything else.
True. TBH I never heard of the name until today :lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on April 20, 2020, 01:42:00 PM
Definitely overthinking it. NISMO exhaust, TRD trim, AMG model, etc., etc.
I will repeat myself
QuoteIt would be like Ford releasing a new engine called the Cobrajet, putting it in the new Explorer, then building a series of performance versions of their other vehicles called "Cobrajet", but not using the Cobrajet engine in any of them.
Well no, that's not it at all. The Blackwing engine was installed in about 1500 vehicles TOTAL from 2019-2020, all of them CT6's, and there are no plans to continue after 2020. This engine is a one off, has no cache at all, and is associated with nothing. Comparing it to something that sells thousands a month in a weird hypothetical is pointless.
Quote from: Xer0 on April 20, 2020, 03:31:44 PM
Well no, that's not it at all. The Blackwing engine was installed in about 1500 vehicles TOTAL from 2019-2020, all of them CT6's, and there are no plans to continue after 2020. This engine is a one off, has no cache at all, and is associated with nothing. Comparing it to something that sells thousands a month in a weird hypothetical is pointless.
Why does quantity sold matter?
End of the day, Caddy has an engine and a trim line each called "Blackwing" that are completely unrelated to each other. Would be one thing if the Blackwing engine was some long discontinued historical footnote.
Quote from: MX793 on April 20, 2020, 03:47:48 PM
Why does quantity sold matter?
End of the day, Caddy has an engine and a trim line each called "Blackwing" that are completely unrelated to each other. Would be one thing if the Blackwing engine was some long discontinued historical footnote.
You're more than welcome to correct me, but it seems like your point is that using "Blackwing" is confusing because its a name used elsewhere in the Caddy lineup and they both reference two completely different things. First, its current application is so insignificant that not even the average car enthusiast is aware of it. Second, the "Blackwing" engine is out of production and the CT4/CT5V Blackwing aren't even on offer yet. For 99.9999% of the buying public the first time they will have heard of "Blackwing" will be with the CT4/CT5. Quantity maters because if this thing sold like your hypothetical Explorer people would actually know about it and Cadillac would legitimately be confusing a decent amount of people. But that isn't the case at all.
Quote from: Xer0 on April 20, 2020, 04:01:04 PM
You're more than welcome to correct me, but it seems like your point is that using "Blackwing" is confusing because its a name used elsewhere in the Caddy lineup and they both reference two completely different things. First, its current application is so insignificant that not even the average car enthusiast is aware of it. Second, the "Blackwing" engine is out of production and the CT4/CT5V Blackwing aren't even on offer yet. For 99.9999% of the buying public the first time they will have heard of "Blackwing" will be with the CT4/CT5. Quantity maters because if this thing sold like your hypothetical Explorer people would actually know about it and Cadillac would legitimately be confusing a decent amount of people. But that isn't the case at all.
OK, let me fix it so that we can have equal quantities.
Ford releases some super fancy Lincoln Continental trim called the "Ultra" featuring an all new engine called "Cobrajet". Said Lincoln sells like air conditioners in Antarctica for 2 years and is quietly slated for discontinuation. Before the Continental Ultra's, and "Cobrajet" engine's, corpse is even cold, Ford announces they will be releasing a new performance line for several of their vehicles called "Cobrajet". None of said vehicles will utilize the recently released, and now slated to be discontinued, Cobrajet engine.
Blackwing is an awesome name for a trim level or even a performance division. They shouldn't have wasted it on an engine that only utilized in a poorly selling model.
Second issue is the notion that GM developed an all new, clean-sheet motor for Caddy only to use it in a single, super low volume model for like 2 years.
Quote from: MX793 on April 20, 2020, 04:12:34 PM
OK, let me fix it so that we can have equal quantities.
Ford releases some super fancy Lincoln Continental trim called the "Ultra" featuring an all new engine called "Cobrajet". Said Lincoln sells like air conditioners in Antarctica for 2 years and is quietly slated for discontinuation. Before the Continental Ultra's, and "Cobrajet" engine's, corpse is even cold, Ford announces they will be releasing a new performance line for several of their vehicles called "Cobrajet". None of said vehicles will utilize the recently released, and now slated to be discontinued, Cobrajet engine.
Blackwing is an awesome name for a trim level or even a performance division. They shouldn't have wasted it on an engine that only utilized in a poorly selling model.
Yes it is an awesome, which is why its no longer being wasted on an engine for a car that no one bought. Names are just marketing tools and ways to differentiate products and this name has virtually no cache. And as for the Lincoln example, sure why not, they decided that the marketing would be better used somewhere while the name is still not wasted.
QuoteSecond issue is the notion that GM developed an all new, clean-sheet motor for Caddy only to use it in a single, super low volume model for like 2 years.
Not gonna argue with that, its a waste of money but re-purposing the name is a GOOD move, not a bad one.
My only point is, they spent countless millions for
this...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nj30qHw5/untitled.png)
and they ended up with this...
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjDwb2f3/blackwing.png)
Hmmm. Trying hard for that W. IMO still way overthinking it. Near countless examples of marge performance branding applying to divisions, models, trims, parts RAM, TRD, NISMO, AMG, etc.
Cadillac was under no delusions that the CT6 was a low volume seller, and a $100k CT6 was going to be even more so, as evidenced with the 2nd and 3rd gen CTS-V. However, Cadillac's volume unit; the Escalade; and the rest of GM's V8 lineup and its competition, is as we've seen, better served with N/A pooprod motors, so that's not happening.
Here's my bet as to what happened. The logical goal was to use the Blackwing V8 in the mid/upper trim big Caddy sedan and new XT6. Thing is, by the time the engine was done, Tesla changed the luxury car market, so GM "pivoted" away to devote efforts there. Also, GM sold the Blackwing to a boutique automaker, so not a total loss (https://www.motor1.com/news/402888/cadillac-blackwing-v8-mat-stratos/).
Quote from: GoCougs on April 20, 2020, 07:10:37 PM
Hmmm. Trying hard for that W. IMO still way overthinking it. Near countless examples of marge performance branding applying to divisions, models, trims, parts RAM, TRD, NISMO, AMG, etc.
And you are still completely missing the point. Toyota doesn't build an engine codenamed or branded "the TRD". Nissan doesn't build an engine named the "NISMO". Mercedes doesn't build an engine called the AMG. The TRD, NISMO, and AMG brands are exclusively "performance" lines, trims, or divisions. Caddy has both an engine and an unrelated trim line branded as "Blackwing".
Cadillac already has a performance trim line. It's called the V series. I'm fine with that. I liked the V cars. If GM wants to ape Mercedes and add further tiers to the V line, like making a V-Ultra or whatever, fine. Re-using the moniker of a recent new engine as that new super trim line, when the cars in that line don't use said engine, seems silly. It would be like Ford coming out with a new, hyper Focus one notch above the RS and calling it the Focus RS Voodoo, powered by a 2.3L Ecoboost.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 20, 2020, 07:10:37 PM
Hmmm. Trying hard for that W. IMO still way overthinking it. Near countless examples of marge performance branding applying to divisions, models, trims, parts RAM, TRD, NISMO, AMG, etc.
Cadillac was under no delusions that the CT6 was a low volume seller, and a $100k CT6 was going to be even more so, as evidenced with the 2nd and 3rd gen CTS-V. However, Cadillac's volume unit; the Escalade; and the rest of GM's V8 lineup and its competition, is as we've seen, better served with N/A pooprod motors, so that's not happening.
Here's my bet as to what happened. The logical goal was to use the Blackwing V8 in the mid/upper trim big Caddy sedan and new XT6. Thing is, by the time the engine was done, Tesla changed the luxury car market, so GM "pivoted" away to devote efforts there. Also, GM sold the Blackwing to a boutique automaker, so not a total loss (https://www.motor1.com/news/402888/cadillac-blackwing-v8-mat-stratos/).
Not quite...https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/cadillac-blackwing-v8-new-stratos-mat/ (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/cadillac-blackwing-v8-new-stratos-mat/)
QuoteCadillac's Blackwing V8 won't live within new Stratos maker after all
MAT originally said it received a license for the engine; GM said that's not the case.
Cadillac's twin-turbo 4.2-liter Blackwing V8 will absolutely become a collector's item. After the engine, originally meant as a Cadillac exclusive, only made its way to a single car, the company abandoned it altogether. Cadillac CT6-V owners, I wouldn't let go of your cars, like, ever.
Although the engine was rumored to find a home at Manifattura Automobili Torino, that's unfortunately not the case. Hagerty last Friday reported Cadillac's Blackwing engine would serve a new MAT project in the near future. MAT, the company behind the reborn Stratos project, knows how to build some incredible machines.
I guess they'll be stuck using a Ferrari engine. ;)
I don't see what the big deal is, using the name of a defunct performance engine as the basis for a new line of Caddy performance vehicles. The real problem is how low rent the CT5 looks inside and out.
Quote from: Submariner on April 20, 2020, 07:28:52 PM
I don't see what the big deal is, using the name of a defunct performance engine as the basis for a new line of Caddy performance vehicles. The real problem is how low rent the CT5 looks inside and out.
It seems confused. It comes across to me like the leadership in charge of branding has no larger vision, plan or road map for where they want to go and are just winging it. If you're going to recycle the name (and they should, it's a great name), at least wait for the engine to be out of production for a year or two.
In the same way as if Ford released a new uber Focus called the Focus RS Voodoo next year (GT350 is rumored to be done after 2020). Not powered by a Voodoo V8.
Quote from: Submariner on April 20, 2020, 07:28:52 PM
I don't see what the big deal is, using the name of a defunct performance engine as the basis for a new line of Caddy performance vehicles. The real problem is how low rent the CT5 looks inside and out.
I think the Cadillac "Blackwing" with an actual Blackwing engine will become a collectors item.
Quote from: FoMoJo on April 20, 2020, 07:25:27 PM
Not quite...https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/cadillac-blackwing-v8-new-stratos-mat/ (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/cadillac-blackwing-v8-new-stratos-mat/)
I guess they'll be stuck using a Ferrari engine. ;)
Meh, immaterial.
As we've seen, the GM s/c V8s are superior do their competitors' OHC turbo V8s, for super hi-po applications.
Quote from: MX793 on April 20, 2020, 07:36:47 PM
It seems confused. It comes across to me like the leadership in charge of branding has no larger vision, plan or road map for where they want to go and are just winging it.
Well, Cadillac hasn't had a real vision for its brand (or a good lineup) for the past several decades. The nomenclature issue is the least of their worries.
Does Cadillac really expect people to buy these ugly sedans?
The XT4 and XT5 are the most compelling cars they have on sale, and even still I wouldn't take them over most of their competition.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35383882/2022-cadillac-ct5-v-blackwing-revealed/