https://www.theautopian.com/the-2025-ram-ramcharger-a-tesla-sized-battery-and-a-big-gas-engine-create-the-perfect-truck/comment-page-1/#comments
Wow. Stellantis beating everyone to the punch here. 92 kWh battery, 145 miles of EV range, pentastar V6 as a serial hybrid to give it 690 miles of range.
You now have an EV truck for 99% of your commute, but can tow and go on road trips without missing a beat.
This is the way.
Oh wow.
That's a massive battery for the range, I wonder how much reserve they leave before the V6 kicks on? I'm sure the mi/kw aren't good compared to most car/hatchback EVs, but 145 miles on 92 kWh still seems a bit low. The Lightning seems to get above 2 mi/kw
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 07, 2023, 08:17:25 AMOh wow.
That's a massive battery for the range, I wonder how much reserve they leave before the V6 kicks on? I'm sure the mi/kw aren't good compared to most car/hatchback EVs, but 145 miles on 92 kWh still seems a bit low. The Lightning seems to get above 2 mi/kw
Lightning can get as low as 1.5 in cold, highway driving. Yeah, efficiency seems low, but at the same time, it's probably not designed for maximum efficiency as an EV. Efficiency is only really critical in that it dictates range. When you remove the range issue by having a gas engine too, I don't really care if it's 1.4 mi/kWh or 1.7 mi/kWh. Operating cost difference is going to be pretty negligible.
Seems like a no brainer over something like the Silverado EV. I think that's in the 1.4 mi/kWh too? But it has like a 200+ kWh battery. And it's $100k+. It'll be cheaper, has the same EV driving experience for 99% of your driving, and for the 1% for road trips or towing, it greatly outperforms the Silverado.
I'm shocked no one else has done this yet. Ford seems like the obvious one, since it has the powerboost and the Lightning already.
Quote from: MrH on November 07, 2023, 09:05:32 AMI'm shocked no one else has done this yet. Ford seems like the obvious one, since it has the powerboost and the Lightning already.
Me too, honestly. Ford should have gotten over their surprise at the Maverick's demand and upgraded the same idea to all the other TRUCKS....
Why 145 miles? That seems like too much for a PHEV. It's so much battery and so much engine. Flebhbhbb.
PHEVs are about nailing the 99% use case which is probably around 80mi.
Quote from: MrH on November 07, 2023, 09:05:32 AMLightning can get as low as 1.5 in cold, highway driving. Yeah, efficiency seems low, but at the same time, it's probably not designed for maximum efficiency as an EV. Efficiency is only really critical in that it dictates range. When you remove the range issue by having a gas engine too, I don't really care if it's 1.4 mi/kWh or 1.7 mi/kWh. Operating cost difference is going to be pretty negligible.
Seems like a no brainer over something like the Silverado EV. I think that's in the 1.4 mi/kWh too? But it has like a 200+ kWh battery. And it's $100k+. It'll be cheaper, has the same EV driving experience for 99% of your driving, and for the 1% for road trips or towing, it greatly outperforms the Silverado.
I'm shocked no one else has done this yet. Ford seems like the obvious one, since it has the powerboost and the Lightning already.
I didn't see pricing mentioned in the article, I think this is gonna be at least $70k if not pushing $100k.
Quote from: Laconian on November 07, 2023, 11:12:37 AMWhy 145 miles? That seems like too much for a PHEV. It's so much battery and so much engine. Flebhbhbb.
PHEVs are about nailing the 99% use case which is probably around 80mi.
If you granny push the right pedal it could be up there. It's a tesla sized battery, not a PHEV little battery...
Quote from: Laconian on November 07, 2023, 11:12:37 AMWhy 145 miles? That seems like too much for a PHEV. It's so much battery and so much engine. Flebhbhbb.
PHEVs are about nailing the 99% use case which is probably around 80mi.
145 miles is much more useful than 80 for me.
More importantly though, it likely needs a huge buffer. It's not just a range question. The electric motors have 663 horsepower. The generator attached to the V6 can only generate 174 hp. Granted, that's steady state. I highly doubt the truck would be using 174+ hp continuously. There was probably a lot of thought and design about how much capacity is needed if you were towing and needed serious power to get all the way up a mountain, etc. Too small of battery capacity, and you're going to deplete the reserve and not have enough coming from the generator.
It's like sizing a battery for an off-the-grid solar installation or something. You measure the demand, the supply, and worst case between those two to size your batteries. Too small of a battery, and your AC might be shutting off in the middle of the night all summer.
Quote from: MrH on November 07, 2023, 11:34:27 AM145 miles is much more useful than 80 for me.
More importantly though, it likely needs a huge buffer. It's not just a range question. The electric motors have 663 horsepower. The generator attached to the V6 can only generate 174 hp. Granted, that's steady state. I highly doubt the truck would be using 174+ hp continuously. There was probably a lot of thought and design about how much capacity is needed if you were towing and needed serious power to get all the way up a mountain, etc. Too small of battery capacity, and you're going to deplete the reserve and not have enough coming from the generator.
It's like sizing a battery for an off-the-grid solar installation or something. You measure the demand, the supply, and worst case between those two to size your batteries. Too small of a battery, and your AC might be shutting off in the middle of the night all summer.
The Corvette E-Ray seems to play similar games with keeping the battery charged up so it never loses AWD.
I think this pickup truck looks like a winner on paper but won't sell that well.
Gasoline is too cheap in America, especially outside California, for there to be enough financial incentive to pay my guess the 10 to 15 grand premium over the cost of the ICE equivalent Ram truck. Plus red states like Texas are imposing EV specific taxes to make them even less appealing.
I think most potential buyers are going to be worrying about more things (expensive things) going wrong with their new truck and would end up getting the ICE only all black Ram truck they want for a cheaper high apr 7 year loan term.
At $3.50/gal has and 17 cent/kw electric - this has the operating cost of a 31mpg vehicle in EV mode and my guess is something horrendous in gas-gen mode
-yawn-
Actually... Lol 690 mile claimed range with full EV charge and 27 gallons of gas comes out to 25.5 mpg.
In gas gen mode it's getting 20 mpg... Not seeing some life changing benefit here
Quote from: r0tor on November 07, 2023, 01:22:51 PMActually... Lol 690 mile claimed range with full EV charge and 27 gallons of gas comes out to 25.5 mpg.
In gas gen mode it's getting 20 mpg... Not seeing some life changing benefit here
Like all PHEVs, mileage will never be that much better if you're consistently using the gas engine. It's meant to be used in full EV mode as much as possible to get the full benefits.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 07, 2023, 02:18:57 PMLike all PHEVs, mileage will never be that much better if you're consistently using the gas engine. It's meant to be used in full EV mode as much as possible to get the full benefits.
Full benefits of 31 equivalent mpg in EV mode doesn't exactly light the world on fire.
It's double what I hear people in regular pickups getting!!
Quote from: r0tor on November 07, 2023, 02:21:13 PMFull benefits of 31 equivalent mpg in EV mode doesn't exactly light the world on fire.
31mpg in a full size truck is insane. Anything over 20 with an ICE is a surprise.
I'd be surprised if TUNDRA ever hits 18 MpG. It'd have to be a steady 50 MPH cruise with a slight downhill grade with the tires over inflated while drafting a semi truck.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 07, 2023, 07:52:52 PM31mpg in a full size truck is insane. Anything over 20 with an ICE is a surprise.
Unless Diesel :)
What is even this thing.
It has most of the cost of a premium EV (i.e., a fairly large battery pack and dual motors, at least in top trim) PLUS now an onboard gas ICE and all that it needs, IRS and 8-lug wheels in the promo pics (might be fake, but if not, that points to HD (=$$$) suspension and brakes). How this will cost less than $90k will be amazing (at least in dual motor, big battery pack trim (i.e., the only useful config)):
1.) Pickup drivers couldn't care less about MPG.
2.) Chevy did this more than 10 years ago and nobody really bought it (Chevy Volt).
3.) They all tried diesel half tons and hybrids (Tahoe) for similar reasons and nobody bought those either.
4.) Just generally, 20+ years on only Toyota hybrids sell in any sort of profitable/successful way.
5.) Trucks are terrible WRT to reliability and Rams are by far the worst.
6.) The Pentastar V6 is ancient.
7.) Like the Hummer EV showed, when EVs get this big/heavy/inefficient, the eMPG is abysmal.
Just buy a used Tacoma if you're interested in saving $$$ and the environment.
I agree. The eMPG is so bad, and the battery pack is so large, that it will never break even as a less polluting vehicle vs. ICE trucks.
Y'all never talk with any brodozer bros?...
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 07, 2023, 07:52:52 PM31mpg in a full size truck is insane. Anything over 20 with an ICE is a surprise.
Regular Rams are in the mid 20's?
Quote from: r0tor on November 08, 2023, 06:24:46 AMRegular Rams are in the mid 20's?
https://www.fuelly.com/car/ram/1500/2022#:~:text=Based%20on%20data%20from%20301,0.11%20MPG%20margin%20of%20error.&text=Below%20you%20can%20see%20a,204%20outliers%20(1.76%25)%20removed.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 07, 2023, 07:52:52 PM31mpg in a full size truck is insane. Anything over 20 with an ICE is a surprise.
That "31 mpg" equivalent stat only works with gas fixed at $3.50/gal indefinitely. As gas goes up, it becomes more and more advantageous.
Not only that, but this is 600+ hp, 14k towing ability. An ICE equivalent would be well under 20 mpg.
Quote from: r0tor on November 08, 2023, 06:24:46 AMRegular Rams are in the mid 20's?
I've been in dozens of different Rams and seen the trip computers. In the real world, no they are not.
Quote from: MrH on November 08, 2023, 09:57:55 AMThat "31 mpg" equivalent stat only works with gas fixed at $3.50/gal indefinitely. As gas goes up, it becomes more and more advantageous.
Not only that, but this is 600+ hp, 14k towing ability. An ICE equivalent would be well under 20 mpg.
Once the batteries deplete there is no way the pentastar produces enough electricity to to 14k pound except if it's downhill with a tail wind.
Electric costs are rising substantially faster than gas prices.
Quote from: r0tor on November 08, 2023, 10:07:03 AMElectric costs are rising substantially faster than gas prices.
Where?
It's dirt cheap here. 8-12 cents. Charging my EV is practically free.
Quote from: MrH on November 08, 2023, 09:57:55 AMThat "31 mpg" equivalent stat only works with gas fixed at $3.50/gal indefinitely. As gas goes up, it becomes more and more advantageous.
Not only that, but this is 600+ hp, 14k towing ability. An ICE equivalent would be well under 20 mpg.
600 hp for only very short bursts before thermal management kicks in and then you'll deplete the battery in a matter of minutes if you keep it. Then comes the real problem in lugging 3/4-ton pickup weight (7000+ lbs) with a minivan V6 (currently rated at less than 300 hp) whilst not charging the battery.
So, all told, yes, range anxiety is alleviated somewhat but there will still be a moderate dose of EV range mindfulness, such as stopping to let the ICE charge the battery (or plugging in) or greatly altering your driving (such as when towing). IOW, you're not getting anything remotely close to 600hp for 690 miles.
No one uses 600hp for anything but short bursts, it's not a heavy-duty truck even though the tow capacity is stupid high..
FWIW the Maverick Hybrid is only rated for 2000lbs towing and there are charts for calculating frontal area of trailers to make sure not to overload small tow-capacity vehicles.
-truck also has a "power" meter instead of usual tachometer- it shows 0-100% and under zero is a "charge" range (if you go past the end of the charge range the hydraulic brakes are used).
-A guy has stuff plugged in always monitoring battery charge and temp, along with engine temp and output.
-He towed a 3000lb square utility trailer from CONUS up to Alaska and back (including some pretty substantial grades up and down).
-he said as long as you keep Maverick at 50% or less, it stays just fine temp-wise....
Quote from: GoCougs on November 08, 2023, 11:23:05 AM600 hp for only very short bursts before thermal management kicks in and then you'll deplete the battery in a matter of minutes if you keep it. Then comes the real problem in lugging 3/4-ton pickup weight (7000+ lbs) with a minivan V6 (currently rated at less than 300 hp) whilst not charging the battery.
So, all told, yes, range anxiety is alleviated somewhat but there will still be a moderate dose of EV range mindfulness, such as stopping to let the ICE charge the battery (or plugging in) or greatly altering your driving (such as when towing). IOW, you're not getting anything remotely close to 600hp for 690 miles.
In what world could you use 600 hp for 690 miles :wtf:
Also, for those questioning the efficiency...
Turns out the battery is 90 kWh gross, but I think it's only 70 kWh usable. That would bring the EV efficiency more in line with the other EV trucks at around 2.0 mi/kWh.
That's more like 45 mpg @ $3.50/gal, 52 mpg @ $4/gal, etc
Quote from: MrH on November 08, 2023, 11:27:05 AMIn what world could you use 600 hp for 690 miles :wtf:
I'm not posting the stats as advantage *r0tor shrug* ;).
You're romanticizing this thing WAY beyond what it could ever be. If you want to tinker or signal, by all means, but this is not equivalent in utility or cost to own vs. an ICE-only pickup truck plus it will cost a fortune and likely be little if any better for the environment.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 08, 2023, 11:36:46 AMI'm not posting the stats as advantage *r0tor shrug* ;).
You're romanticizing this thing WAY beyond what it could ever be. If you want to tinker or signal, by all means, but this is not equivalent in utility or cost to own vs. an ICE-only pickup truck plus it will cost a fortune and likely be little if any better for the environment.
I just think it's cool tech that makes more sense than the path the Silverado EV is going down :huh: It's not the end all, be all. But it makes more sense to me for trucks than the ever increasing battery size wars to deal with towing.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 08, 2023, 10:47:50 AMWhere?
It's dirt cheap here. 8-12 cents. Charging my EV is practically free.
Is that generation or generation + distribution + taxes?
The national average total price is 17 cents and it's up 20% over the last couple years
Gas prices have more or less been stagnant for a good decade now.
Quote from: MrH on November 08, 2023, 11:27:05 AMIn what world could you use 600 hp for 690 miles :wtf:
So the battery pack reaches a min state charge. Now your ram hauling 14,000 pounds hits a grade for a few miles. What happens? Just going to drive with the pentastar at WOT producing less than half the power the motors are capable of putting out?
If that's the case, then the 300hp Pentastar should also be rated for hauling 14,000 pounds instead of half that amount.
Also due to thermal loading of the battery, all EVs restrict power once you get below roughly 40-50%.
Quote from: r0tor on November 08, 2023, 12:38:13 PMGas prices have more or less been stagnant for a good decade now.
:facepalm:
Quote from: MrH on November 08, 2023, 01:08:21 PM:facepalm:
Tell me what the average price was 10 years ago
Quote from: r0tor on November 08, 2023, 12:42:32 PMSo the battery pack reaches a min state charge. Now your ram hauling 14,000 pounds hits a grade for a few miles. What happens? Just going to drive with the pentastar at WOT producing less than half the power the motors are capable of putting out?
If that's the case, then the 300hp Pentastar should also be rated for hauling 14,000 pounds instead of half that amount.
Also due to thermal loading of the battery, all EVs restrict power once you get below roughly 40-50%.
That's a silly conversation to have with the first press release, IMO. Wait for some first drives and then we can see how it performs and what the different modes are.
Quote from: r0tor on November 08, 2023, 02:25:58 PMTell me what the average price was 10 years ago
You are too dumb to engage in conversation with.
Quote from: MrH on November 08, 2023, 05:09:03 PMYou are too dumb to engage in conversation with.
Yea, 10 years ago it was the same price as today
$1.84 to $4.90 is definitely stagnation. (NOT) And that's just within the last 5 years.
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epmr_pte_nus_dpg&f=m
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 08, 2023, 06:43:17 PM$1.84 to $4.90 is definitely stagnation. (NOT) And that's just within the last 5 years.
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=emm_epmr_pte_nus_dpg&f=m
Come on, that was like a 1 month lockdown Walmart special.... How I miss lockdown
Adjusted for inflation, the price was a good $1.50 more 15 years ago
Jesus, I thought I'd never see it, but r0tor for ONCE doesn't take the L.
Gas price, when controlled for the CPI and 2022 $$, has remained between $4.00 and $4.50/gallon since the late '70s (https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/gasoline-prices-adjusted-for-inflation/), with a slight trend downward (note I didn't double check this site's math). In short, gas has actually gotten a bit cheaper over the last ~45 years. Note however this is YEARLY AVERAGE which will smooth price fluctuations within the year (which TBF can be large):
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnpbB5ww/gas.png)
Gougs and r0tor on the same side, we are truly witnessing the apocalypse.
Yeah demand is down; gas is not that expensive: around $2.80/gal here in GA. I think only TX is cheaper. So not the spur to EV sales that there is in other states.
Sure adjusted for inflation prices seem fairly consistent OVER LONG TERM.
Doesn't mean it doesn't go up and down by months/ quarters. Which is the opposite of stagnation.
Price of gasoline will unlikely stay very high because when the price of gasoline gets high, there is an all hands on deck approach to try and lower it. This includes releasing reserves, going to Saudi Arabia and asking them to increase production, eliminating gasoline taxes, etc. These are all things Biden himself has done in the last few years. Every POTUS knows if the price of gasoline gets high, they themselves and their party will get voted out of office next election cycle. The U.S. pegs its index of economic health to the price of a gallon of gasoline. We have fought wars because of it (when Iraq invaded Kuwait).
What's incredible to me is how short-memory the country is. The humor of the PANIC of people selling their trucks back in 2006 and buying up little economy cars was only matched by the amount of people buying trucks a year or two later...
Quote from: veeman on November 09, 2023, 09:23:02 AMPrice of gasoline will unlikely stay very high because when the price of gasoline gets high, there is an all hands on deck approach to try and lower it. This includes releasing reserves, going to Saudi Arabia and asking them to increase production, eliminating gasoline taxes, etc. These are all things Biden himself has done in the last few years. Every POTUS knows if the price of gasoline gets high, they themselves and their party will get voted out of office next election cycle. The U.S. pegs its index of economic health to the price of a gallon of gasoline. We have fought wars because of it (when Iraq invaded Kuwait).
And reduced demand: 7.9% of new cars sold in the US were BEVs (3X higher than Q3 21): that's a huge chunk of product demand that's disappeared.
In Europe it's 16%. 23% if you include PHEVs.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 09, 2023, 09:48:09 AMAnd reduced demand: 7.9% of new cars sold in the US were BEVs (3X higher than Q3 21): that's a huge chunk of product demand that's disappeared.
In Europe it's 16%. 23% if you include PHEVs.
Eventually the reduced demand may lead to higher gas prices, if the supply starts to contract in reaction and less government attention is paid to keeping the price down.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 09, 2023, 10:33:21 AMEventually the reduced demand may lead to higher gas prices, if the supply starts to contract in reaction and less government attention is paid to keeping the price down.
Less demand means wells with higher extraction costs get shutdown... So prices will probably remain fairly stagnant between the two opposite forces
Yes, when you look at gas, and average out all of the variation over incredibly long time frames, and adjust for inflation, in which gas prices are component of calculating, it's totally stagnant. You guys got me :rolleyes:
Quote from: r0tor on November 09, 2023, 12:24:42 PMLess demand means wells with higher extraction costs get shutdown... So prices will probably remain fairly stagnant between the two opposite forces
Yes, I expect supply to match demand and keep it fairly steady (ignoring other shocks), until there's some sort of supply cliff where the wells don't think it's worth it anymore and supply falls off, sending the price up for the few remaining gas customers.
Quote from: MrH on November 08, 2023, 12:07:29 PMI just think it's cool tech that makes more sense than the path the Silverado EV is going down :huh: It's not the end all, be all. But it makes more sense to me for trucks than the ever increasing battery size wars to deal with towing.
I always thought the Volt was a good idea; a few of the engineery-type people where I used to work had them & loved them. The Ramcharger addresses the range issue with those who actually use the truck for something trucks are best at, like hauling loads, but does it really need the Pentastar V6 & >600 miles? People need food & potty stops.
I wonder if a turbo four would have been a better fit with a lower weight penalty. Maybe that would be more expensive than the V6 - reliable & probably now being stamped out like cookies by now - fully amortized years ago.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 10, 2023, 09:11:29 AMI wonder if a turbo four would have been a better fit with a lower-weight penalty. Maybe that would be more expensive than the V6 - reliable & probably now being stamped out like cookies by now - fully amortized years ago.
I've seen comments about this elsewhere. I think a larger, lower-stress engine is a better fit for this. Depending on how it operates to charge, you don't want a small engine constantly running all-out to make enough HP to run the generator.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 10, 2023, 09:13:14 AMI've seen comments about this elsewhere. I think a larger, lower-stress engine is a better fit for this. Depending on how it operates to charge, you don't want a small engine constantly running all-out to make enough HP to run the generator.
Yeah. The Pentastar is relatively ancient, but it's also pretty tried and true at this point. The modern-day GM 3800.
I wonder what the alternator capacity is. It's probably much lower than the engine's max output and I bet heat soak is a thing for sustained runs.
Quote from: Laconian on November 10, 2023, 11:05:27 AMI wonder what the alternator capacity is. It's probably much lower than the engine's max output and I bet heat soak is a thing for sustained runs.
I bet it doesn't have one. There's probably zero accessories on the V6, everything would be electric (cooling pumps, A/C, PS, etc) and it can use the generator or 90 kwh battery to charge the 12v system.
Pentastar V6 is undoubtedly cheaper than a modern turbo 4
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 10, 2023, 11:16:38 AMI bet it doesn't have one. There's probably zero accessories on the V6, everything would be electric (cooling pumps, A/C, PS, etc) and it can use the generator or 90 kwh battery to charge the 12v system.
Exactly - radiator, pipes & coolant are about all that needs to be bolted on.
(IIRC we decided in another thread that, relative to other brands, Ram trucks enjoy most-favored status with coal-rolling LSEs. So one has to wonder how they'll cope with this.)
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 10, 2023, 09:11:29 AMI always thought the Volt was a good idea; a few of the engineery-type people where I used to work had them & loved them. The Ramcharger addresses the range issue with those who actually use the truck for something trucks are best at, like hauling loads, but does it really need the Pentastar V6 & >600 miles? People need food & potty stops.
I wonder if a turbo four would have been a better fit with a lower weight penalty. Maybe that would be more expensive than the V6 - reliable & probably now being stamped out like cookies by now - fully amortized years ago.
The range is essentially a fake stat IMO, just like 600 hp - fairly narrow band of use cases. After 145 miles of EV range that means ~550 miles on a minivan V6 toting around 7,000+ lbs.
More than likely, as the vehicle is driven normally (i.e., not at high loads), the V6 will always be charging to some extent the battery, and then perhaps it'll charge when the vehicle is parked (?).
All told, as I see it, you'll still have to drive it to a fair extent like an EV - being mindful of range and load - to be useful and the extreme stats (600 hp, 690 mile range) will be in only extreme cases.
The V6 is parts bin - Ram was already putting that V6 its trucks.
I would imagine that the truck would offer a choice of operating modes, and that for regulatory reasons the default choice would be the most eco-friendly one; i.e. drain the battery deeply before lighting up the ICE motor. It makes way more sense to do things this way when decent L2 charging is available at the home/shop/whatever.
145 miles is very generous, far more than most people ask of their vehicles over the course of an average day.
After five years of ownership of this pickup, what percentage would you guess of owners would exclusively use the ICE component of this vehicle because something broke with the EV component and the Stellantis dealership is giving the owner the runaround and can't seem to fix it or is claiming whatever is broke is no longer under warranty.
I'm guessing 50%.
Quote from: veeman on November 13, 2023, 03:34:58 PMAfter five years of ownership of this pickup, what percentage would you guess of owners would exclusively use the ICE component of this vehicle because something broke with the EV component and the Stellantis dealership is giving the owner the runaround and can't seem to fix it or is claiming whatever is broke is no longer under warranty.
I'm guessing 50%.
The ICE's job in this implementation is purely to feed energy to the electric drivetrain. If the electric part is kaput, then I would guess that nothing would work at all?
Quote from: Laconian on November 13, 2023, 05:49:20 PMThe ICE's job in this implementation is purely to feed energy to the electric drivetrain. If the electric part is kaput, then I would guess that nothing would work at all?
It says in the article the V6 can recharge the battery or dump power to the drive motors. So if the battery is kaput for whatever reason or some component of the charging mechanism, the motors should still work being fed by the ICE.
"They" call it a series hybrid, which generally means the ICE can power the drive motor(s) directly via the generator. I suspect however it won't run completely off the ICE if but for nothing else than weird driving behavior of having to pass power through the generator first.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fdemotix.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F07%2FSeries-Hybrid.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=6758c69e6fd97521acaba69112b389ac258e6a1cd24e839609d53ef8235f85b4&ipo=images)
Quote from: veeman on November 13, 2023, 06:46:48 PMIt says in the article the V6 can recharge the battery or dump power to the drive motors. So if the battery is kaput for whatever reason or some component of the charging mechanism, the motors should still work being fed by the ICE.
There is no mechanical connection between the gas engine and the drive train.
So what you guys are saying is that if the battery or charging mechanism of the battery of this pickup goes kaput for whatever reason, the pickup won't be able to use the ICE engine and the pickup will be non-functional?
Great.
Stellantis hasn't had any EV product out there yet in America so we have no idea how reliable their battery/charging mechanism will be.
The Ford Mustang Mach-E hasn't had good reliability with it's battery/charging mechanism when using fast public charging. Ford has had a lot of growing pains with EV.
Quote from: veeman on November 14, 2023, 10:58:37 AMSo what you guys are saying is that if the battery or charging mechanism of the battery of this pickup goes kaput for whatever reason, the pickup won't be able to use the ICE engine and the pickup will be non-functional?
Great.
Stellantis hasn't had any EV product out there yet in America so we have no idea how reliable their battery/charging mechanism will be.
The Ford Mustang Mach-E hasn't had good reliability with it's battery/charging mechanism when using fast public charging. Ford has had a lot of growing pains with EV.
They've had their eTorque systems out in Wranglers and Rams for a while now. Different, as it isn't plug-in and the battery is much smaller (it's a "mild hybrid"), but they do have experience with the ICE -> generator -> battery -> motor system.
But yeah, knowing their reputation with electronics, I wouldn't get within a thousand feet of this thing with my own money.
I don't think it's any more concerning than their regular ICE powertrains. I've heard enough horror stories about Cummins RAMs, this can't be any worse :lol:
Quote from: veeman on November 14, 2023, 10:58:37 AMSo what you guys are saying is that if the battery or charging mechanism of the battery of this pickup goes kaput for whatever reason, the pickup won't be able to use the ICE engine and the pickup will be non-functional?
Great.
Stellantis hasn't had any EV product out there yet in America so we have no idea how reliable their battery/charging mechanism will be.
The Ford Mustang Mach-E hasn't had good reliability with it's battery/charging mechanism when using fast public charging. Ford has had a lot of growing pains with EV.
I mean, with any vehicle now, any major component of the drive train going out will cause it to not work. :huh:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 14, 2023, 12:36:58 PMI don't think it's any more concerning than their regular ICE powertrains. I've heard enough horror stories about Cummins RAMs, this can't be any worse :lol:
:lol: exactly.
In some ways, a serial hybrid is less complicated than some other systems. There isn't a transmission, for example.
I've got a 13 year old basically trouble free Pentastar -shrug-
Quote from: MrH on November 14, 2023, 01:15:56 PMI mean, with any vehicle now, any major component of the drive train going out will cause it to not work. :huh:
:lol: exactly.
In some ways, a serial hybrid is less complicated than some other systems. There isn't a transmission, for example.
What would you say if Jaguar made a serial hybrid, with Lucas playing a supporting role?
Quote from: veeman on November 14, 2023, 10:58:37 AMSo what you guys are saying is that if the battery or charging mechanism of the battery of this pickup goes kaput for whatever reason, the pickup won't be able to use the ICE engine and the pickup will be non-functional?
Great.
Stellantis hasn't had any EV product out there yet in America so we have no idea how reliable their battery/charging mechanism will be.
The Ford Mustang Mach-E hasn't had good reliability with it's battery/charging mechanism when using fast public charging. Ford has had a lot of growing pains with EV.
Per the diagram above the ICE can directly power the drive motors like a railroad locomotive but the power pass through is not instantaneous. At times the locomotive prime mover (the ICE) RPM is independent of locomotive speed. So, that, along with the throttle lag and being WAY down on power WRT a traditional pickup truck, will make for an odd driving experience when the battery is at or near depletion. I'll be interested to see how Ram handles it.
Quote from: Laconian on November 14, 2023, 01:44:59 PMWhat would you say if Jaguar made a serial hybrid, with Lucas playing a supporting role?
Might be the quickest vehicle ever produced. Any issue, and a blackhole to the underworld would open up and you could travel through space time.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 14, 2023, 02:26:02 PMPer the diagram above the ICE can directly power the drive motors like a railroad locomotive but the power pass through is not instantaneous. At times the locomotive prime mover (the ICE) RPM is independent of locomotive speed. So, that, along with the throttle lag and being WAY down on power WRT a traditional pickup truck, will make for an odd driving experience when the battery is at or near depletion. I'll be interested to see how Ram handles it.
I'm guessing for something like this, the ICE would kick on at 25% battery remaining. Engine would generate the necessary power to stay in that area, something like that. I highly, highly doubt they'd ever let power get so low that they would try to marry the throttle position 1:1 with the ICE output. If there was little to no battery, then yes, you could get the situation you're describing. But with 70 kWh? They are going to have a really fat buffer in there so you can continue to get near or close to the full power.
If you're in tow mode, it would probably try to keep a 50% reserve or something. If you're in EV mode, maybe it lets it go all the way down to 10%. It'll have some sort of logic like that.
You would basically have a kanban style supply and demand scenario to drive the ICE logic based on desired reserves, calculated by the demand the car is seeing. They'll never link the ICE and throttle pedal exactly.
Quote from: MrH on November 14, 2023, 02:32:28 PMI'm guessing for something like this, the ICE would kick on at 25% battery remaining. Engine would generate the necessary power to stay in that area, something like that. I highly, highly doubt they'd ever let power get so low that they would try to marry the throttle position 1:1 with the ICE output. If there was little to no battery, then yes, you could get the situation you're describing. But with 70 kWh? They are going to have a really fat buffer in there so you can continue to get near or close to the full power.
If you're in tow mode, it would probably try to keep a 50% reserve or something. If you're in EV mode, maybe it lets it go all the way down to 10%. It'll have some sort of logic like that.
You would basically have a kanban style supply and demand scenario to drive the ICE logic based on desired reserves, calculated by the demand the car is seeing. They'll never link the ICE and throttle pedal exactly.
That's not any more efficient then simply having the ICE V6 power the vehicle via conventional means (i.e., traditional drive train). This thing only makes sense as an EV if it is mostly powered via energy from charging from the grid (i.e., the V6 is rarely used).
Quote from: GoCougs on November 14, 2023, 07:06:51 PMThis thing only makes sense as an EV if it is mostly powered via energy from charging from the grid (i.e., the V6 is rarely used).
I'd wager that's how most of the trucks would be used...
The problem is that the V6 will be generating max power close to redline.
When the battery runs low is that V6 just going to be screaming away the whole time? Hope the sound insulation is incredible.
Quote from: Laconian on November 14, 2023, 07:29:21 PMI'd wager that's how most of the trucks would be used...
I suspect that as well, but more because you'll have to, as best case it'll be a PITA to drive with a nearly depleted battery, even if they let you do it at all.
This thing seems to make less and less sense the more we talk about it. :confused:
Chevy figured it out on the 2nd Gen Volt. It's not that hard.
Quote from: 565 on November 14, 2023, 08:20:10 PMThe problem is that the V6 will be generating max power close to redline.
When the battery runs low is that V6 just going to be screaming away the whole time? Hope the sound insulation is incredible.
The generator can only take 225hp so the Pentastar probably won't be running at max speed.
Quote from: Laconian on November 14, 2023, 07:29:21 PMI'd wager that's how most of the trucks would be used...
Exactly.
99% of pickup driving is unloaded driving to work or a grocery run. But the hybrids allow people to also account for the one off needs....
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 14, 2023, 10:17:46 PMChevy figured it out on the 2nd Gen Volt. It's not that hard.
GM sold its rail electro-motive division, EMD, nearly 20 years ago. All that electric traction expertise...
AFAIK diesel-electric locomotives don't have batteries between the prime mover & the traction motors. I think there are a few fixed throttle positions, & control smarts juggle prime mover, generator, and desired output.
For max planet-saving efficiency the Pentastar would be need to be wailing at WOT quite a bit of the time... :lol:
Quote from: Laconian on November 14, 2023, 10:32:08 PMThe generator can only take 225hp so the Pentastar probably won't be running at max speed.
The pentastar is pretty gutless engine down low.
Our ancestors were tinkering around with this stuff 100 years ago.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 15, 2023, 05:26:31 AMGM sold its rail electro-motive division, EMD, nearly 20 years ago. All that electric traction expertise...
AFAIK diesel-electric locomotives don't have batteries between the prime mover & the traction motors. I think there are a few fixed throttle positions, & control smarts juggle prime mover, generator, and desired output.
For max planet-saving efficiency the Pentastar would be need to be wailing at WOT quite a bit of the time... :lol:
Yeah, trains have multiple fixed throttle positions because they are dealing with fewer dynamic forces than a vehicle on the road...much less throttle input/adjustment is necessary. They also need known/fixed throttle positions as locos very often work in tandem, so keeping both on the "same page" of putting power down is super important. If one loco goes full-tilt and starts spinning its wheels, it's useless, and the other has to take on the whole load.
My local railroad uses GE units (U30C's and C30-7's)...ancient, as far as machinery goes (not to mention many of the ore cars date back to WWII), but they keep chuggin' iron ore cars up and down the hill just fine.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 14, 2023, 07:06:51 PMThat's not any more efficient then simply having the ICE V6 power the vehicle via conventional means (i.e., traditional drive train). This thing only makes sense as an EV if it is mostly powered via energy from charging from the grid (i.e., the V6 is rarely used).
Yes, that's the idea of all PHEV vehicles?
Quote from: 565 on November 14, 2023, 08:20:10 PMThe problem is that the V6 will be generating max power close to redline.
When the battery runs low is that V6 just going to be screaming away the whole time? Hope the sound insulation is incredible.
The generator can only create 130 kW (174 hp). It won't be running at max power. Whole thing will be tuned for the most efficient way to make anywhere between 0-174 hp, depending on the needs.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 14, 2023, 10:17:46 PMChevy figured it out on the 2nd Gen Volt. It's not that hard.
GM may have figured it out but the Volt itself was a parallel hybrid - the ICE had a direct clutched connection to the drive wheels in order to take over duties on a low/depleted battery:
(https://www.gm-volt.com/attachments/slide3-jpg.168332/)
Quote from: MrH on November 15, 2023, 07:56:51 AMYes, that's the idea of all PHEV vehicles?
If that's how the this thing will operate, anything more than ~150 miles and its eMPG = MPG and any topping off of charge sowewheres in that ~150 miles lowers eMPG substantially. IOW, its value as an EV is a plugged-in charge of ~150 miles with the advantage being less of a PITA if an owner is caught out not near a charger on low/depleted battery.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 15, 2023, 08:28:23 AMGM may have figured it out but the Volt itself was a parallel hybrid - the ICE had a direct clutched connection to the drive wheels in order to take over duties on a low/depleted battery:
(https://www.gm-volt.com/attachments/slide3-jpg.168332/)
Oh that's true. The 1st gen was serial but the improved 2nd gen was parallel.
RAM should be doing parallel then :lol:
Parallel hybrids are more efficient from a gas consumption standpoint than a serial hybrid. It makes sense to use a parallel hybrid if you intend to run the gas engine regularly. The more rare it is, the more a serial hybrid makes sense.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 15, 2023, 08:43:41 AMIf that's how the this thing will operate, anything more than ~150 miles and its eMPG = MPG and any topping off of charge sowewheres in that ~150 miles lowers eMPG substantially. IOW, its value as an EV is a plugged-in charge of ~150 miles with the advantage being less of a PITA if an owner is caught out not near a charger on low/depleted battery.
Yep, exactly. It's basically designed to be an EV truck, with a cheap gas engine thrown in to allow it to tow or roadtrip if needed.
I think that was the idea with the Volt originally, but the EV range wasn't large enough, so they switched to parallel to make it more efficient when you're forced to dip into the gas engine.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 15, 2023, 08:43:41 AMIf that's how the this thing will operate, anything more than ~150 miles and its eMPG = MPG and any topping off of charge sowewheres in that ~150 miles lowers eMPG substantially. IOW, its value as an EV is a plugged-in charge of ~150 miles with the advantage being less of a PITA if an owner is caught out not near a charger on low/depleted battery.
Correct. It's a medium/low-range EV with built in charging station which runs off the mostly widely available fuel around....
It occurred to me that we are concerned about engine noise on a RAM. A RAM. The LSE muffler-delete ride of choice.
If anything it needs a sound symposer to make the Pentastar sound more like a whistling can of coins Cummins.
Quote from: Laconian on November 15, 2023, 02:24:56 PMIt occurred to me that we are concerned about engine noise on a RAM. A RAM. The LSE muffler-delete ride of choice.
If anything it needs a sound symposer to make the Pentastar sound more like a whistling can of coins Cummins.
LSEs will avoid this think like the m-fing plague.
LSE?
Quote from: GoCougs on November 15, 2023, 05:05:32 PMLSEs will avoid this think like the m-fing plague.
My friend with a PHEV Jeep keeps finding it vandalized by LSEs. They rip off the charging door, scratch the hybrid livery with keys, etc
Quote from: Laconian on November 15, 2023, 08:45:32 PMCougsism for douchebro. Low Status Emotional
LOL love it