EVs

Started by Morris Minor, November 08, 2018, 04:03:12 AM

AutobahnSHO

I think with the reliability of cars, and the trickiness of modifying engines, the mystique and magic has been replaced by computer boringness.

To many young people it's just not a priority. Many don't get their driver licenses till older, and think of them as appliances rather than tickets to freedom and the world.
Will

Laconian

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 09, 2018, 03:43:31 PM
I think with the reliability of cars, and the trickiness of modifying engines, the mystique and magic has been replaced by computer boringness.

Plus overly punitive laws, ridiculous insurance premiums, tax revenue-starved police forces shaking down drivers to keep the lights on...
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

Soup DeVille

Quote from: shp4man on November 09, 2018, 03:22:38 PM
I've heard that a significant percentage of that generation aren't interested in car ownership.

This is very true
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

BimmerM3

Quote from: Laconian on November 09, 2018, 03:38:53 PM
Traffic's unbearably shitty in populated areas because infrastructure spending has been so poor for the past two or three decades (many thanks, Boomers). I can understand why driving in those conditions would be repulsive to a lot of people.

Not to mention that just the cost of parking can be preventative for some. My buddy works for Amazon in Seattle, and he and his wife have been carless since they moved a bit over three years ago for largely that reason, though they're getting one now that they moved further out from downtown.

Quote from: Laconian on November 09, 2018, 03:38:53 PM
IMO it's good for everyone, including drivers, that some folks are flexible and open to finding transportation alternatives. It frees up capacity for the grouchy old people.

Also good for sustainability reasons.

Laconian

Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 09, 2018, 04:17:40 PM
Also good for sustainability reasons.

Right, but people on the 'spin roll their eyes at that line of reasoning.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

giant_mtb

Quote from: Laconian on November 09, 2018, 04:49:11 PM
Right, but people on the 'spin roll their eyes at that line of reasoning.

At least most of y'all live in places where Uber actually exists. :( :lol:

shp4man

To this day, I've never used an Uber/Lyft/Whatever. Too darn newfangled for me, sonny!    :fogey:   Not really. Never needed to.

BimmerM3

Quote from: Laconian on November 09, 2018, 04:49:11 PM
Right, but people on the 'spin roll their eyes at that line of reasoning.

Still? That's silly.

2o6

I think a lot of autonomous driving developments are overblown, and I think vastly improving public transit in many cities would be better than everyone owning a self driving car.

BimmerM3

Quote from: 2o6 on November 09, 2018, 06:42:33 PM
I think a lot of autonomous driving developments are overblown, and I think vastly improving public transit in many cities would be better than everyone owning a self driving car.

I agree 100%, but people are stupid and never vote for tax increases to fund public transit.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: shp4man on November 09, 2018, 03:22:38 PM
I've heard that a significant percentage of that generation aren't interested in car ownership.
You've heard a lot of things that aren't true.

Quote from: 2o6 on November 09, 2018, 06:42:33 PM
I think a lot of autonomous driving developments are overblown, and I think vastly improving public transit in many cities would be better than everyone owning a self driving car.
Good public transit requires high population density to keep travel distances short. You look at all the super dense cities.... NYC, San Fran, Philly, Chicago, D.C.... these cities have way more people packed in per mile than pretty much anywhere between the coasts. Avg US city is like 1/10th as dense as those cities.

I think autonomous driving developments are overblown as well, but that will be the only way public transportation will be viable in flyover country. Fixed routes aren't compatible with sprawl.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: 2o6 on November 09, 2018, 06:42:33 PM
I think a lot of autonomous driving developments are overblown, and I think vastly improving public transit in many cities would be better than everyone owning a self driving car.

In cities, absolutely positively agree!!

I think the ultimate goal of Uber etc... is autonomous taxis. Like in scifi movies... And that would make so much sense. Take most private cars off the road, and the customer doesn't have to pay to maintain a car because they know they can get use of one whenever they need it.
Will

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 09, 2018, 06:54:23 PM
I agree 100%, but people are stupid and never vote for tax increases to fund public transit.

It's not just that, it's that public transit isn't self-sustaining unless you jack the rates up too high.

Everyone wants instant rides anywhere without waiting. Impossible everywhere all the time.
Will

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 09, 2018, 07:42:25 PM
Good public transit requires high population density to keep travel distances short. You look at all the super dense cities.... NYC, San Fran, Philly, Chicago, D.C.... these cities have way more people packed in per mile than pretty much anywhere between the coasts. Avg US city is like 1/10th as dense as those cities.

I think autonomous driving developments are overblown as well, but that will be the only way public transportation will be viable in flyover country. Fixed routes aren't compatible with sprawl.

Agree 100%.   

It's funny how in the mid-90s Mendoza Argentina (city of around a million back then) was developing based on the public transportation available. Neighborhoods grew up along already existing bus routes. It took a large amount of people to add demand for the bus to go into the neighborhood, until then they had to walk out to the main road.

Will

Laconian

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 09, 2018, 07:49:23 PM
It's not just that, it's that public transit isn't self-sustaining unless you jack the rates up too high.

Everyone wants instant rides anywhere without waiting. Impossible everywhere all the time.

Well, wait until the traffic gets REALLY bad. Then people start wringing out their wallets for mass transit. Too bad it barely buys anything because the land became incredibly expensive in the meantime! The total cost of per park and ride spot in the Seattle area is $80,000. Can you imagine that?
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

Laconian

The solution for all that ails us is obviously 30mph electric unicycles and blockchain.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

FoMoJo

They're revamping mass transit up here.  Putting dedicated bus lanes down the centre of major streets.  Buses go faster, cars go slower.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Laconian

https://projects.seattletimes.com/2018/one-center-city/

The growing pains are going to seriously suck. I hope it'll all be worth it.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: Laconian on November 09, 2018, 07:58:46 PM
Well, wait until the traffic gets REALLY bad. Then people start wringing out their wallets for mass transit. Too bad it barely buys anything because the land became incredibly expensive in the meantime! The total cost of per park and ride spot in the Seattle area is $80,000. Can you imagine that?

So when we went to NYC we stayed in the bottom of Brooklyn and rode the subway to Manhattan for touristy stuff. We were at the end of a side branch line. Train was literally empty in the middle of the day when we got on, got 60% full in the middle of Manhattan, but going back during rush hour was standing room only, yet still not as bad as the India and Japan vids we see.

Right Now (10pm on Friday night) it says it's
35min to drive
55min on train  (switch trains)
75min to bike

Will

Laconian

That 35m car time will surely turn into 2hrs during rush hour, but that train time will get smaller because they'll have more frequent arrivals.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

BimmerM3

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 09, 2018, 07:42:25 PM
Good public transit requires high population density to keep travel distances short. You look at all the super dense cities.... NYC, San Fran, Philly, Chicago, D.C.... these cities have way more people packed in per mile than pretty much anywhere between the coasts. Avg US city is like 1/10th as dense as those cities.

You're not wrong, but it goes both ways. Good public transit allows a city to more easily grow and maintain denser populations.

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 09, 2018, 07:49:23 PM
It's not just that, it's that public transit isn't self-sustaining unless you jack the rates up too high.

Everyone wants instant rides anywhere without waiting. Impossible everywhere all the time.

But even car commuters should support public transit, even if it has to be subsidized, to get other cars off the road. Public transportation benefits everyone in major cities, not just those who actually use it. But they don't vote for the taxes that would make it possible, and then they sit in their cars during their hour and a half long commute bitching about how incompetent the DOT is. :huh:

Quote from: Laconian on November 09, 2018, 07:58:46 PM
Well, wait until the traffic gets REALLY bad. Then people start wringing out their wallets for mass transit. Too bad it barely buys anything because the land became incredibly expensive in the meantime! The total cost of per park and ride spot in the Seattle area is $80,000. Can you imagine that?

Yup. Atlanta is well on it's way toward that situation, and Denver isn't too far behind. 

Laconian

#81
Seattle could've built a subway with federal $$$ back in the 60's, but NIMBYs voted it down. Atlanta got the money instead. There's so much regret over that.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

12,000 RPM

Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 09, 2018, 08:32:50 PM
You're not wrong, but it goes both ways. Good public transit allows a city to more easily grow and maintain denser populations.
It's a matter of timing I guess. Cities like NYC and the like got it perfect. And even NYC's public transportation has mega problems. It's falling apart

They are building some rail here, but the coverage is so sparse it's basically useless for most people. And I've heard of multiple people getting carjacked  :mask:

Public transportation sounds good in theory but big infrastructure is very hard these days. There have to be other solutions, like decentralizing commercial/business facilities.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Laconian

I think a promising solution is to have extremely frequent and reliable buses along backbones with dedicated lanes etc., with dynamically dispatched routes on the edges to get people to and from their doorsteps. Also, blockchain.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

CaminoRacer

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 09, 2018, 09:09:36 PM

They are building some rail here, but the coverage is so sparse it's basically useless for most people. And I've heard of multiple people getting carjacked  :mask:

Public transportation sounds good in theory but big infrastructure is very hard these days. There have to be other solutions, like decentralizing commercial/business facilities.

Yeah I was surprised to see the light rail in Charlotte.

2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

GoCougs

Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 09, 2018, 06:54:23 PM
I agree 100%, but people are stupid and never vote for tax increases to fund public transit.

Because "public transit" makes things far worse. Look no further than Japan, and the decline that is slowly ending their culture, a principal factor of which is the crowding, lack of mobility and expense of hugely artificial concentrations of population courtesy of by far the world's most developed public transportation system. Public transportation is literally the devil.

2o6

Quote from: GoCougs on November 09, 2018, 09:39:58 PM
Because "public transit" makes things far worse. Look no further than Japan, and the decline that is slowly ending their culture, a principal factor of which is the crowding, lack of mobility and expense of hugely artificial concentrations of population courtesy of by far the world's most developed public transportation system. Public transportation is literally the devil.

Did you stretch before that reach?

Morris Minor

#87
Quote from: Laconian on November 09, 2018, 04:49:11 PM
Right, but people on the 'spin roll their eyes at that line of reasoning.
I've come around on that subject. I'll be happy to see EVs, ridesharing, & autonomy in various, mixes, permutations & individual strengths. Let the millennials have at it.
Georgia's just opened a huge length of dedicated reversible toll lanes in Atlanta's NW corridor. They are great: a closed and controlled environment. So, I'm thinking, ripe for formally encouraging the use of at least adaptive cruise control to keep things moving and, maybe one day, requiring the use of EVs.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

12,000 RPM

Quote from: GoCougs on November 09, 2018, 09:39:58 PM
Because "public transit" makes things far worse. Look no further than Japan, and the decline that is slowly ending their culture, a principal factor of which is the crowding, lack of mobility and expense of hugely artificial concentrations of population courtesy of by far the world's most developed public transportation system. Public transportation is literally the devil.
Dizzying that a guy with a room in his house literally dedicated to trains blames them entirely for the decline of a country's culture.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Morris Minor


Fun with perverse incentives.
Government-subsidised plug-in cars may never have been charged
Tens of thousands of plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) bought with generous government grants may be burning as much fuel as combustion-engine cars.
​Data compiled for the BBC suggests that such vehicles in corporate fleets averaged just 40 miles per gallon (mpg), when they could have done 130.
Many drivers may never have unwrapped their charging cables, The Miles Consultancy said.
More...
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46152853
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤