Manual vs. RWD

Started by Tave, January 19, 2018, 12:32:28 PM

Would you rather?

Drive a stick, but it has to be FWD
7 (58.3%)
Drive RWD, but it has to be an automatic
5 (41.7%)

Total Members Voted: 12

GoCougs

If it's a top notch AT - such as the performance implementation of the ZF8 or DSG, RWD/AT of course.

565

Quote from: Raza  on January 22, 2018, 11:29:10 AM
Yeah, but he's talking about hypothetical situation where the cars are otherwise equal. 




Ah I see, I was doing this wrong.

Well I still stand by my RWD auto preference, because as fun as a 660hp FWD Civic Type R may be in the short term, the 488 GTB is probably the more sensible car in the long run.


Tave

#32
I didn't want to restrict it to one class or price point or even new/old or  DD'ers, but yeah the general idea is you're looking at two roughly comparable cars that you'd actually buy.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your average CivicR buyer can't afford a Ferrari, but they could swing a Mustang/Comaro or even something like a 1-Series. :lol:

And yeah I def think dual clutches and smg's (as long as we're not talking something like a motorcycle box) count as automatics.
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

12,000 RPM

I would go RWD + auto again. The G is the perfect speed for the street, and out of the box only the CTR truly matches it. Plus most FWD manual cars have open diffs which is shit. And as I've said before I think attaching all driving pleasure to operating a clutch + manual lever is missing the forest for the trees. I feel like people here yell "clutch in... SHIFT... clutch out.... OHH YEAAHHH!!!" every time they change gears. It's not that serious :lol:

Plus as Cougs said autos have come a long way, to the point that choosing manual is purely a matter of taste. At this point I think I prefer an auto to a manual to be honest.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

veeman

In the U.S. today, if you drive a manual you are a skilled driver compared with the masses. And the masses know this. It is a skill. It can't be bought. A terrible driver can buy a Ferrari. Through practice and effort, the skill is fine tuned. There's even an element of respect. If I see a woman driving a stick, my immediate reaction is, "damn girl...shit...you are awesome!"

I know this may be all stupid on my part. But it's what I feel. A few months ago I picked up a high school friend of mine I hadn't seen in a few years from the train station. He got in the passenger seat. First thing out of his mouth, "You drive a 5 speed."  "Yeah.  I like it."  "Hmm. When did you learn?" 


giant_mtb

I don't think that driving a manual automatically makes one a more skilled driver besides in the sense that you can successfully operate a clutch/transmission. That has little bearing on your ability/desire to travel the roads competently and safely. 

2o6

I think a manual can make any car feel more engaging, and I think that's especially true with a slow car

Xer0

Quote from: Raza  on January 22, 2018, 11:29:10 AM
Yeah, but he's talking about hypothetical situation where the cars are otherwise equal.

I get that, but a hypothetical situation like that likely wouldn't exist.  Each layout has its pros and cons and limits.  A hypothetical FWD GT3 would more than likely be a dynamic mess that would just spin its front tires.  If the FWD and RWD car are hypothetically otherwise equal, then the RWD vs FWD distinction is pointless and its just a question of auto vs manual.

Raza

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 05:50:56 AM
I would go RWD + auto again. The G is the perfect speed for the street, and out of the box only the CTR truly matches it. Plus most FWD manual cars have open diffs which is shit. And as I've said before I think attaching all driving pleasure to operating a clutch + manual lever is missing the forest for the trees. I feel like people here yell "clutch in... SHIFT... clutch out.... OHH YEAAHHH!!!" every time they change gears. It's not that serious :lol:

Plus as Cougs said autos have come a long way, to the point that choosing manual is purely a matter of taste. At this point I think I prefer an auto to a manual to be honest.

Once automatics progress to the point that they become manuals, I'll start being impressed. Until then, it's just another computer between me and my car.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

CaminoRacer

Quote from: Raza  on January 24, 2018, 09:29:26 AM
Once automatics progress to the point that they become manuals, I'll start being impressed. Until then, it's just another computer between me and my car.

Drive an old automatic that just uses manifold vacuum and throttle position to know when to shift. No computers!
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Soup DeVille

Quote from: giant_mtb on January 24, 2018, 08:17:21 AM
I don't think that driving a manual automatically makes one a more skilled driver besides in the sense that you can successfully operate a clutch/transmission. That has little bearing on your ability/desire to travel the roads competently and safely. 

it means at the very least that one has to be aware of what the car is doing, with the added benefit that it forces you to put the phone down for the most part.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Raza  on January 24, 2018, 09:29:26 AM
Once automatics progress to the point that they become manuals, I'll start being impressed. Until then, it's just another computer between me and my car.
I think the manual vs auto question is really one of whether you enjoy the process vs the result. Or at least what you prioritize. For me the G is no more or less fun than the Z despite the missing pedal. The overall driving experience and performance is the same. But for someone who enjoys each step of the process taking out shifting is a huge blow to the experience.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

CaminoRacer

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 10:24:35 AM
I think the manual vs auto question is really one of whether you enjoy the process vs the result. Or at least what you prioritize. For me the G is no more or less fun than the Z despite the missing pedal. The overall driving experience and performance is the same. But for someone who enjoys each step of the process taking out shifting is a huge blow to the experience.

For what I do, it doesn't matter too much. In Auto-x I typically leave it in the same gear the whole time.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Tave

#43
Quote from: Xer0 on January 24, 2018, 09:25:15 AM
I get that, but a hypothetical situation like that likely wouldn't exist.  Each layout has its pros and cons and limits.  A hypothetical FWD GT3 would more than likely be a dynamic mess that would just spin its front tires.  If the FWD and RWD car are hypothetically otherwise equal, then the RWD vs FWD distinction is pointless and its just a question of auto vs manual.

The hypothetical is more common in the real world than cross shopping a Civic and a Ferrari, or this make-believe FWD Carerra.  :huh:

The premise isn't that the two vehicles are virtual equals, only that they are roughly comparable, you like them both about the same, and they are cars you could seriously envision yourself purchasing.

They don't have to be the exact same year, type, size, price, etc..; just two models that are realistic examples of your potential buys, separated by drivetrain and layout.

What I was trying to avoid was a situation where people punch down at notoriously sloppy autos or understeering pigs.
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

Laconian

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 10:24:35 AM
I think the manual vs auto question is really one of whether you enjoy the process vs the result. Or at least what you prioritize. For me the G is no more or less fun than the Z despite the missing pedal.

Really? I thought the G's transmission has a lot of room for improvement. Even in Sport mode it wasn't very good at letting the engine sing unless you were intent on hitting WOT.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

MX793

I read "all else being equal" to be a choice between a Civic Si coupe and an automatic GT86.  Similar power and performance capabilities and price.

As you move up the performance ladder, especially power output, you start seeing more differences in overall capability.  Like comparing a 340i to an Acura TLX.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

2o6

So like an Automatic NA, and a '93 Civic VTEC

GoCougs

Quote from: Laconian on January 24, 2018, 10:49:03 AM
Really? I thought the G's transmission has a lot of room for improvement. Even in Sport mode it wasn't very good at letting the engine sing unless you were intent on hitting WOT.

G37's 7AT was mediocre 10 years when new (and DS mode is ridiculous). ANY sort of sporting intent absolutely has to be addressed only via manual shifting.

r0tor

After rowing your own gears for a few years I think the thrill and "skill" of using a clutch just becomes a thing of novelty... After a point, all shifting occurs pretty much subconsciously without much effort or thought involved.

I'm more interested in control and throttle response of a transmission.  If it let's you fully control the gear selection and replaces a spongy torque converter with a direct connected feel - then it's ok in my book.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Laconian

Quote from: r0tor on January 24, 2018, 12:26:56 PM
After rowing your own gears for a few years I think the thrill and "skill" of using a clutch just becomes a thing of novelty... After a point, all shifting occurs pretty much subconsciously without much effort or thought involved.

Eh, it's the expressiveness of the MT that's appealing to me. The personality of the car changes to reflect how I feel.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

SJ_GTI

Quote from: r0tor on January 24, 2018, 12:26:56 PM
After rowing your own gears for a few years I think the thrill and "skill" of using a clutch just becomes a thing of novelty... After a point, all shifting occurs pretty much subconsciously without much effort or thought involved.

I'm more interested in control and throttle response of a transmission.  If it let's you fully control the gear selection and replaces a spongy torque converter with a direct connected feel - then it's ok in my book.

I agree with this, but I would also add that the occasional time when I am driving an auto I almost invariable miss having a manual. Sequential manuals are the closest but even then having to go through each gear can be an annoyance vs being able to change in to any gear.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Laconian on January 24, 2018, 10:49:03 AM
Really? I thought the G's transmission has a lot of room for improvement. Even in Sport mode it wasn't very good at letting the engine sing unless you were intent on hitting WOT.
I may just have learned how to prime it. Plus the paddles still work in D. I find DS to be needlessly aggressive.

I will say this- which may be worth a separate discussion- I'd rather have a so-so transmission with a great motor than the opposite. That F30 328i is supposedly about as fast as the G, and the ZF8 is brilliant... but any time I dipped into the gas, I never knew what I was gonna get. That motor was a mystery. With the G, get it above 2K, it's go time. Much easier to manage
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

CaminoRacer

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 02:14:43 PM
I may just have learned how to prime it. Plus the paddles still work in D. I find DS to be needlessly aggressive.

I will say this- which may be worth a separate discussion- I'd rather have a so-so transmission with a great motor than the opposite. That F30 328i is supposedly about as fast as the G, and the ZF8 is brilliant... but any time I dipped into the gas, I never knew what I was gonna get. That motor was a mystery. With the G, get it above 2K, it's go time. Much easier to manage

Yep. The larger the engine, the less the transmission matters. Which is why I'd rather have a big engined RWD car, even if it comes with an auto.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Xer0

Quote from: MX793 on January 24, 2018, 11:22:46 AM
I read "all else being equal" to be a choice between a Civic Si coupe and an automatic GT86.  Similar power and performance capabilities and price.

As you move up the performance ladder, especially power output, you start seeing more differences in overall capability.  Like comparing a 340i to an Acura TLX.

Given the choice between a CSi or an auto GT86, I think I would probably go with the Civic.

giant_mtb

Quote from: Soup DeVille on January 24, 2018, 10:18:48 AM
it means at the very least that one has to be aware of what the car is doing, with the added benefit that it forces you to put the phone down for the most part.

Fair enough.

Tave

Quote from: MX793 on January 24, 2018, 11:22:46 AM
I read "all else being equal" to be a choice between a Civic Si coupe and an automatic GT86.  Similar power and performance capabilities and price.

As you move up the performance ladder, especially power output, you start seeing more differences in overall capability.  Like comparing a 340i to an Acura TLX.

Those are great examples. Even more generally, I meant "all else equal" in terms of your likes/dislikes and relative attraction to the car. If you could reasonably see yourself trying to decide between a FWD station wagon and RWD pickup at the same price point, go nuts. Just as long as it's something you would realistically consider purchasing.
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

Tave

#56
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 05:50:56 AM
I would go RWD + auto again. The G is the perfect speed for the street, and out of the box only the CTR truly matches it. Plus most FWD manual cars have open diffs which is shit. And as I've said before I think attaching all driving pleasure to operating a clutch + manual lever is missing the forest for the trees. I feel like people here yell "clutch in... SHIFT... clutch out.... OHH YEAAHHH!!!" every time they change gears. It's not that serious :lol:

Plus as Cougs said autos have come a long way, to the point that choosing manual is purely a matter of taste. At this point I think I prefer an auto to a manual to be honest.

I don't look at it as a novel skill as much as keeping you involved and contributing to the process in a way that (if you're doing it well) also makes you more attentive to the task at hand.

It's really easy to hedge your bets in an auto, but if you want to drive a manual fundamentally proper and smooth in all scenarios you have to pay attention. It's almost like a check against your own worse impulses, aside from the simple joy of being an active participant in the play. There's a certain satisfaction you get from being engaged.

Also, regardless of the advertised absolute speeds on shifts, virtually almost all affordable cars have enough lag between the paddle-pull and actual shift to make the exercise a phyrric victory. What good does .5 sec faster shifting give you if it happens .7 sec after you want it?
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

Laconian

Yeah, the hesitation of paddle shifters is bizarre. It's as if subtracting 1 from the current gear number is too much for the TCU to handle.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Laconian on January 24, 2018, 04:46:26 PM
Yeah, the hesitation of paddle shifters is bizarre. It's as if subtracting 1 from the current gear number is too much for the TCU to handle.

First they have to unload the transmission (which is why every DCT car is throttle by wire), and engines still only drop RPM so fast.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Gotta-Qik-C7

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 24, 2018, 05:50:56 AM
I would go RWD + auto again. The G is the perfect speed for the street, and out of the box only the CTR truly matches it. Plus most FWD manual cars have open diffs which is shit. And as I've said before I think attaching all driving pleasure to operating a clutch + manual lever is missing the forest for the trees. I feel like people here yell "clutch in... SHIFT... clutch out.... OHH YEAAHHH!!!" every time they change gears. It's not that serious :lol:

Plus as Cougs said autos have come a long way, to the point that choosing manual is purely a matter of taste. At this point I think I prefer an auto to a manual to be honest.
I said this back in 2011 when I got rid of the Z28 (6 Speed) for my first C6 (Auto)....
2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide