:popcorn:
Next Lexus IS Might Get Supra's BMW-Sourced Straight Six
If we were to believe the latest rumors, it seems that the next-generation Lexus IS could be powered by the same BMW-developed 3.0-liter turbocharged straight-six as the brand new Supra.
Japan's Best Car magazine broke the news, and while it remains to be seen if it's true or not, it wouldn't be all that surprising. After all, both the BMW M340i and BMW Z4 M40i are powered by the same B58 engine as the Supra, but the German models get a healthy 382 hp while the Supra has to make do with 335 hp.
The Supra engine won't be the only powertrain allegedly offered in the next-generation Lexus IS. In fact, the Japanese report claims that buyers will also have the choice of a 2.0-liter turbo, a 2.4-liter turbo, and a 2.5-liter hybrid.
That's not all. The IS F could make a comeback in the model's next generation and make use of the twin-turbo V6 from the LS 500 sedan. In its current form, this twin-turbo V6 delivers 416 hp, the same amount as the old, naturally aspirated V8 IS F. Lexus engineers could almost certainly tweak the LS 500's engine for use in the IS F to give it a little more character and power.
Beyond its engines, the new IS will probably be similar in size to the current car but weigh considerably less, tipping the scales at around 3395 lbs (1539 kg) in base specification. By comparison, the outgoing IS weighs roughly 3737 lbs (1695 kg), making it heavier than its German rivals. Lexus is expected to unveil the next-generation IS in 2021 before it goes on sale for the 2022 model year.
Carscoops has reached out to Lexus to find out more about the next-gen IS, so stay tuned as the story will be updated once we get a response.
Update: In an email to Carscoops, Lexus said that it can't comment on reports about future products.
Link: https://www.carscoops.com/2019/02/next-lexus-might-get-supras-bmw-sourced-straight-six/
Meh on this. Toyota has a perfectly good brand new V6-TT and V6 hybrid system. B58 isn't a bad engine but it's hardly starved for cars to go into
I wonder if this is just to save development costs? It seems to me the inline 6 engine design has a fan base.
The Japanese have designed some good ones in the past.
153624
This makes sense to me if their current V6 production is maxed out and the extra volume from an IS V6 isn't enough to justify investment in new production lines, hence it makes more sense to outsource production of that limited volume.
Otherwise agree with the above, Toyota's V6 seems more than capable of filling this niche.
Sounds silly
When I saw this on the homepage, I saw Next Lexus IS.... and immediately thought that would be followed with a FWD announcement. TG
Does Toyota even produce an inline-6 anymore?
I thought enthusiasts prefer an inline-6 to a V6, and maybe that's on Toyota's mind as well, hence their choice for a BMW inline-6. Not many choices when it comes to inline-6s. Who still makes them? BMW and Mercedes come to mind.
99.9% of Toyota fanboys would choose a Toyota V6 over a BMW I6 to have in their Toyota/Lexus. But fanboys don't buy new cars, by and large.
Seems like a really bad idea - technical, business, reputation/legacy.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on February 21, 2019, 08:57:54 AM
This makes sense to me if their current V6 production is maxed out and the extra volume from an IS V6 isn't enough to justify investment in new production lines, hence it makes more sense to outsource production of that limited volume.
Otherwise agree with the above, Toyota's V6 seems more than capable of filling this niche.
Pretty much no automaker is going to retool their new car to accept another automaker's engine because of lack of capacity. Vastly cheaper to just scale engine production.
Yea, think about all the hurdles of compatibility. Crash regs, electronic integration, fleet emissions....
Maybe the new 3 series' rear end was a foreshadowing:
(https://s2.paultan.org/image/2018/10/G20-BMW-3-Series-6-e1538474754450-630x356.jpg)
But Toyota just developed an all new RWD platform and engines. Are they really going to limit them to the low volume LS/LC and rumored flagship crossover? Who's in charge here?
Quote from: GoCougs on February 21, 2019, 01:13:41 PM
Pretty much no automaker is going to retool their new car to accept another automaker's engine because of lack of capacity. Vastly cheaper to just scale engine production.
Unless the next IS is a BMW 3 Series.
Meh, just a random rumor. Let me know when this is from an official source.
Quote from: Galaxy on February 21, 2019, 01:18:38 PM
Unless the next IS is a BMW 3 Series.
Sweet Jesus you just might have a point.
Quote from: Galaxy on February 21, 2019, 01:18:38 PM
Unless the next IS is a BMW 3 Series.
Whoa, that would be a hell of a bombshell and would actually make sense after the Supra.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 21, 2019, 01:34:36 PM
Sweet Jesus you just might have a point.
But then BMW would have to retool the 3er to accept the Toyota engines (assuming that part of the report is also accurate).
Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 21, 2019, 01:38:33 PM
But then BMW would have to retool the 3er to accept the Toyota engines (assuming that part of the report is also accurate).
No
FR-S has a Subaru engine
Supra has a BMW engine
Toyota might just be like :huh: on developing low volume medium margin shit... IS def fits that bill
Cars are turning into combination Pizza Huts and Taco Bells.
By 2032 all restaurants will be Taco Bells.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFiDoOgRTpk
(They'll be branded Pizza Hut overseas.)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 21, 2019, 01:46:18 PM
No
FR-S has a Subaru engine
Supra has a BMW engine
Toyota might just be like :huh: on developing low volume medium margin shit... IS def fits that bill
What does the FR-S have anything to do with this?
According to that report, the next IS will have at least one BMW engine and at least one Toyota engine available. If Toyota would have to reengineer the IS to accept a BMW engine, it stands to reason that BMW would have to reengineer the 3er to accept the Toyota engines.
Quote from: Laconian on February 21, 2019, 03:07:57 PM
Cars are turning into combination Pizza Huts and Taco Bells.
Taco Bell was the only restaurant to survive the franchise wars. Now all restaurants are Taco Bell.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 21, 2019, 01:08:24 PM
99.9% of Toyota fanboys would choose a Toyota V6 over a BMW I6 to have in their Toyota/Lexus. But fanboys don't buy new cars, by and large.
Seems like a really bad idea - technical, business, reputation/legacy.
I don't think the IS, other than the original Altezza, has much of a fanboy following.
The inline 6 is just a better engine design
Quote from: r0tor on March 02, 2019, 12:01:22 PM
The inline 6 is just a better engine design
Yes on paper
In real life a Toyota V6 is a much better ownership proposition than a BMW I6
There is nothing wrong with the current bmw i6 engines
Quote from: r0tor on March 02, 2019, 07:48:12 PM
There is nothing wrong with the current bmw i6 engines
Never said otherwise, they are BMW's most reliable engines
But would you trust one over a Toyota V6 for the next 5-10 years? There's nothing inherently more reliable about an I6 over a V6... especially a turbo I6 vs an NA V6
I don't see these engines having an issue and don't see Toyota risking their credibility on a bad engine.
The I6 will sound better, feel better, and have shit tons of power. If you have access to it, why not use it.
Because you're Toyota and you already have a brand new V6TT making shitloads of power, for a brand new RWD platform you made.
and yet I6 > V6 in basically every way
V6 is a better motor than the I6, and Toyota has almost always built a better motor (reliability, durability, longevity) than BMW (or any other German automaker for that matter).
The devil is the details. The detriments to the inline engine are in length - crankshaft, camshaft and engine block are longer and have to be relatively heavier as a result. Other non-load bearing elements are heavier too as lost is the economies of geometry in parts such as the intake manifold to oil pan. This all usually results in a bit heavier engine per unit of displacement. Length of course is also an issue with packaging in the car. US and Japanese automakers had to dump the I6 as the transition to FWD hit full swing. The V6 does have more parts - double the camshafts and associated drive gear, balance shafts, etc., but on balance, especially in situ, the V6 is the better engine (and the V8 is the best engine of all).
Quote from: r0tor on March 02, 2019, 08:50:44 PM
and yet I6 > V6 in basically every way
Which is why the Japanese, the best engine designers and builders on Earth, have abandoned it en masse?
And BMW spent much of the last 30 years fucking them up in one way or another?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 02, 2019, 07:55:16 PM
Never said otherwise, they are BMW's most reliable engines
But would you trust one over a Toyota V6 for the next 5-10 years? There's nothing inherently more reliable about an I6 over a V6... especially a turbo I6 vs an NA V6
:hesaid:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 03, 2019, 06:52:05 AM
Which is why the Japanese, the best engine designers and builders on Earth, have abandoned it en masse?
And BMW spent much of the last 30 years fucking them up in one way or another?
Still the cylinder arrangement of choice for BIG engines. Practically every big rig you see on the highway has a big ole, 12-15L Inline-6.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 02, 2019, 09:53:23 PM
V6 is a better motor than the I6, and Toyota has almost always built a better motor (reliability, durability, longevity) than BMW (or any other German automaker for that matter).
The devil is the details. The detriments to the inline engine are in length - crankshaft, camshaft and engine block are longer and have to be relatively heavier as a result. Other non-load bearing elements are heavier too as lost is the economies of geometry in parts such as the intake manifold to oil pan. This all usually results in a bit heavier engine per unit of displacement. Length of course is also an issue with packaging in the car. US and Japanese automakers had to dump the I6 as the transition to FWD hit full swing. The V6 does have more parts - double the camshafts and associated drive gear, balance shafts, etc., but on balance, especially in situ, the V6 is the better engine (and the V8 is the best engine of all).
The I6 is a balanced engine design. A V6 is not.
An I6 sounds interesting. A V6 does not.
Packaging doesn't mean shit in a front engine / rear drive layout.
The best engine Toyota has ever put in a passenger car was an I6.
Quote from: r0tor on March 03, 2019, 08:50:13 AM
The I6 is a balanced engine design. A V6 is not.
An I6 sounds interesting. A V6 does not.
Packaging doesn't mean shit in a front engine / rear drive layout.
The best engine Toyota has ever put in a passenger car was an I6.
All this internet bench racer Wikipedia search bullshit is irrelevant
(but lol @ packaging being irrelevant in sports sedans)
In real life, where people buy, own and operate cars, Toyota
- Has been making better 6 & 8 cylinder engines than BMW for the last 30 years :huh:
- Made one of the greatest I6s of all time
- Just made a new RWD platform and V6
So we come back to the original question... why in the fuck would they run to BMW for this? They are demonstrably more capable in every capacity.
Quote from: MX793 on March 03, 2019, 08:48:54 AM
Still the cylinder arrangement of choice for BIG engines. Practically every big rig you see on the highway has a big ole, 12-15L Inline-6.
Actually, big rig engines aren't BIG; they're on the small and low(ish) performance side of industrial engines, aka, don't forget I'm into trains!
BIG IC engines - say 1000 to 20,000 hp and have am extreme operating envelop; need for both variable and sustained (relatively high) RPM for thousands of hours over many years, such as trains(!) (or generators, pumping stations, marine, etc.), are typically V-engines for the reasons I gave as to why the V6 engine is superior to the I6 engine. Big rig engines are typically I6 these days, but that's because they're relatively low performance in a conservative/stagnated/consolidated industry. Before that happened; i.e., when there were a lot more players in the market; V8 and V12 diesel big rigs were common.
But here's a 95L 4400 hp V16 Cat locomotive diesel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwCw6Cpq/Cummins-QSK95-2012.jpg)
And here's a 1600L 20,000 hp V16 Cummins marine diesel as large as your house (~350,000 lbs) (https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/power-systems/marine-power-systems/commercial-propulsion-engines/1000014584.html):
(https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/Caterpillar/C10712634?$cc-g$)
Peruse Caterpillar's or Cummins' commercial engine offerings and you'll see that above ~1000 hp it's mostly V-engines:
Quote from: r0tor on March 03, 2019, 08:50:13 AM
The I6 is a balanced engine design. A V6 is not.
An I6 sounds interesting. A V6 does not.
Packaging doesn't mean shit in a front engine / rear drive layout.
The best engine Toyota has ever put in a passenger car was an I6.
Those are 4 points that either don't mean anything or are incorrect.
There are some advantages to the I6, but on balance, for retail vehicles, as the industry has shown, V6 > I6.
This is basically just like GMC's 4.3 V6. You can put it in a truck and it will last 31 years, or you can put a turbo on it.
Quote from: MX793 on March 03, 2019, 08:48:54 AM
Still the cylinder arrangement of choice for BIG engines. Practically every big rig you see on the highway has a big ole, 12-15L Inline-6.
Pretty extreme use case compared to sports sedans, no??
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 03, 2019, 06:52:05 AM
Which is why the Japanese, the best engine designers and builders on Earth, have abandoned it en masse?
Because many of their cars come with transverse I4s as standard equipment, and the shorter block of the V6 is easier to shoehorn in under the hood?
If I got a six cylinder car again, I would definitely prefer a nice creamy I6 over a V6.
Quote from: Laconian on March 03, 2019, 12:32:59 PM
Because many of their cars come with transverse I4s as standard equipment, and the shorter block of the V6 is easier to shoehorn in under the hood?
If I got a six cylinder car again, I would definitely prefer a nice creamy I6 over a V6.
Yes, the predominant reason for a V6 is compactness; fits where an I4 can, for the most part. There are several variations of V6; angle, firing order, crankshaft design, balance shafts or not, but none run as smoothly an an I6. The iconic I6 is the Jaguar XK.
A V-6's advantages over an I-6 do not include innate balance and smoothness.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 03, 2019, 09:43:04 AM
Actually, big rig engines aren't BIG; they're on the small and low(ish) performance side of industrial engines, aka, don't forget I'm into trains!
BIG IC engines - say 1000 to 20,000 hp and have am extreme operating envelop; need for both variable and sustained (relatively high) RPM for thousands of hours over many years, such as trains(!) (or generators, pumping stations, marine, etc.), are typically V-engines for the reasons I gave as to why the V6 engine is superior to the I6 engine. Big rig engines are typically I6 these days, but that's because they're relatively low performance in a conservative/stagnated/consolidated industry. Before that happened; i.e., when there were a lot more players in the market; V8 and V12 diesel big rigs were common.
But here's a 95L 4400 hp V16 Cat locomotive diesel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwCw6Cpq/Cummins-QSK95-2012.jpg)
And here's a 1600L 20,000 hp V16 Cummins marine diesel as large as your house (~350,000 lbs) (https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/power-systems/marine-power-systems/commercial-propulsion-engines/1000014584.html):
(https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/Caterpillar/C10712634?$cc-g$)
Peruse Caterpillar's or Cummins' commercial engine offerings and you'll see that above ~1000 hp it's mostly V-engines:
V12 or V16 have the same inherent shortcomings of an I6 (or I8). Longer crankshafts that can be fragile and sensitive to balance, particularly if your engine runs at higher RPMs. Putting another bank of cylinders off of that crankshaft doesn't change that.
You don't see V6s used in big rig sized engines (or larger). You did used to see more V8s and even V12s back in the golden days of trucking (back when 2-strokes were common). The V8, V12, and I6 were all preferred layouts for engines that size because they have very good primary balance (cross-plane, specifically, when talking V8). V6s are imbalanced, which is why you tend not to see them in larger displacements. When you have pistons displacing a liter or more, running at 4-digit RPMs, balance is important. The I6 persevered in that market because it's the best balance of cost and performance for the application. Same reason why V6s largely displaced I6s in automobiles. They work better for that application, all things considered.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 03, 2019, 09:24:18 AM
All this internet bench racer Wikipedia search bullshit is irrelevant
(but lol @ packaging being irrelevant in sports sedans)
In real life, where people buy, own and operate cars, Toyota
- Has been making better 6 & 8 cylinder engines than BMW for the last 30 years :huh:
- Made one of the greatest I6s of all time
- Just made a new RWD platform and V6
So we come back to the original question... why in the fuck would they run to BMW for this? They are demonstrably more capable in every capacity.
BMW produces the best balanced and smallest front overhang of pretty much all sedans on the maket... So fuck your packaging argument.
I'm not sure when the last time I heard a BMW owner wishing thry had a Toyota V6
Quote from: GoCougs on March 03, 2019, 09:54:08 AM
Those are 4 points that either don't mean anything or are incorrect.
There are some advantages to the I6, but on balance, for retail vehicles, as the industry has shown, V6 > I6.
Luxury segment should have smoothness - an I6 excels at this as the I6 is an inheritently balanced design.
A sports luxury sedan should sound good and have great power... also where an I6 beats the pants off of a V6
Quote from: r0tor on March 03, 2019, 05:23:45 PM
Luxury segment should have smoothness - an I6 excels at this as the I6 is an inheritently balanced design.
A sports luxury sedan should sound good and have great power... also where an I6 beats the pants off of a V6
Either motor can sound great or bad depending on the exhaust. Ford SVT Contour, Acura NSX, Jag F-Type, and even the 3.7L S197/S550 Mustangs all sound damn good. So did the 3.0L Nissan VQs. Have you listened to a BMW S54 at full song recently? They sound... thrashy and metallic up top. Not good, at any rate. I'd gladly listen to any of the aforementioned V6s over an S54. The newer, turbo BMW 6s don't sound great either. There's a reason BMW has fitted all of their turbo I6 cars with fake engine sounds pumped through the speakers.
They pump artificial sound in not because it sounds bad, but so they can achieve a quiet and refined ride when they want it and a more aggressive sound when they want it.
F30s and 2ers sound great with exhausts - especially the factory option M performance exhausts
I thought the muffling from F/I was the reason everybody "symposes" their engine sounds nowadays.
Quote from: r0tor on March 03, 2019, 06:50:55 PM
They pump artificial sound in not because it sounds bad, but so they can achieve a quiet and refined ride when they want it and a more aggressive sound when they want it.
F30s and 2ers sound great with exhausts - especially the factory option M performance exhausts
They pump artificial sound in because the turbo motors sound bland and characterless. Though I suppose that's better than sounding outright unpleasant like the S54. They do sound pretty good with the M Performance exhaust setup. Any other factory exhaust setup just sounds generic.
Quote from: Laconian on March 03, 2019, 06:59:32 PM
I thought the muffling from F/I was the reason everybody "symposes" their engine sounds nowadays.
That's part of it. You don't get the same induction noises and the turbo(s) muffle a lot of the exhaust sound. Some do it because their engines just don't sound great (like the Ford 2.3T).
Quote from: Laconian on March 03, 2019, 06:59:32 PM
I thought the muffling from F/I was the reason everybody "symposes" their engine sounds nowadays.
I always thought it was more because newer cars are simply that much quieter inside.
Regardless, it's a lame gimmick, but there are levels to it. BMW doing it digitally via audio files and TPS? Lame as fuck. A resonator tube like a Mustang has (I think?)...less lame, because it's actual engine sound.
Quote from: r0tor on March 03, 2019, 05:23:45 PM
Luxury segment should have smoothness - an I6 excels at this as the I6 is an inheritently balanced design.
A sports luxury sedan should sound good and have great power... also where an I6 beats the pants off of a V6
The new M-B GLE 450 has Mercedes' new inline six.
Kinda surprised the E-Class still has the V-6 - but the base E-Class has a four-banger so I'm guessing they've given up in that segment, now owned by the Model S
I would love a "symposer" feature that would let me load in custom WAV files. I'd turn my Miata into a Cylon Raider. :rockon:
Quote from: giant_mtb on March 03, 2019, 07:17:17 PM
I always thought it was more because newer cars are simply that much quieter inside.
Regardless, it's a lame gimmick, but there are levels to it. BMW doing it digitally via audio files and TPS? Lame as fuck. A resonator tube like a Mustang has (I think?)...less lame, because it's actual engine sound.
Sound tubes basically compensate for the better sound insulation that cabins have today compared to old cars. In the pursuit of minimizing wind and tire noise, engine noise in the cabin got muted as well. The tube allows just the engine sounds back into the cabin.
BMW has to resort to electronic symposers because even with a sound tube, the engine note wouldn't really sound like anything special. The symposer is pretty much a must-have with the 4-banger (4-banger Mustangs have it as well).
Quote from: r0tor on March 03, 2019, 05:23:45 PM
Luxury segment should have smoothness - an I6 excels at this as the I6 is an inheritently balanced design.
A sports luxury sedan should sound good and have great power... also where an I6 beats the pants off of a V6
When's the last time you were in any of these vehicles? The Honda J-series is smoother than any BMW I6 I've ever been even near. But non-advantage doesn't really matter. Most any car these days has active engine mounts.
But with the displacement limitations of an I6 seemingly capped at ~3.0L, in this day and age an I6 necessitates forced induction (usually turbo) which is sucky on multiple levels.
Quote from: Laconian on March 03, 2019, 08:06:56 PM
I would love a "symposer" feature that would let me load in custom WAV files. I'd turn my Miata into a Cylon Raider. :rockon:
You joke, but video game engine sounds are really good. I'm surprised in the gap between those and real cars.
Quote from: r0tor on March 03, 2019, 05:23:45 PM
Luxury segment should have smoothness - an I6 excels at this as the I6 is an inheritently balanced design.
A sports luxury sedan should sound good and have great power... also where an I6 beats the pants off of a V6
Most luxury cars these days are sold with clattery 2.0T four cylinders, so
in real life smoothness isn't that big of a deal. A V6 is much smoother than the standard 4 banger in the majority of luxury cars sold today.
Quote from: r0tor on March 03, 2019, 05:20:51 PM
BMW produces the best balanced and smallest front overhang of pretty much all sedans on the maket... So fuck your packaging argument.
I'm not sure when the last time I heard a BMW owner wishing thry had a Toyota V6
They might not have pined for the Toyota V6 specifically, but plenty were pissed at the timing chain failures on the bread and butter turbo 4, the rod bearing and throttle actuator maintenance items on the ///M V8/V10s, the myriad issues with the N62/N63/S63 TT V8 etc
I6 smoothness is one very minor advantage against a big backdrop of disadvantages for BMW as an engine supplier.
Your only kidding yourself with million mile reliability comverns in a predominately lease segment
Reliability is a big part of why BMW is the #1 most leased brand (77%!!!!!)
People know to get out while the getting is good
I'm going to make a recording of the 250 inch I6 in my truck running through the gears. It's a sound you don't hear anymore, but was common back in the day.
Yes please do.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 04, 2019, 08:14:20 PM
Reliability is a big part of why BMW is the #1 most leased brand (77%!!!!!)
People know to get out while the getting is good
Yea, it's not because leasing allows people to get into cars they can't afford to buy and maintain... Or have enough disposable income that they want to have new cars every couple years
Absolutely ze German brands are designed to be leased.
BMW & Toyota are already cooperating to share costs in segments where volume is dwindling as in the Z4/Supra common car (and it seems they did a pretty good job). The sports sedan segment is also in decline. Why wouldn't Toyota consider using what is widely acknowledged as the best engine in the segment?
I know, because here reliability over 10 years is the one and only concern when buying any car. The CarSpin alternate reality and group-think (with some exceptions) is staggering.
Best by what metrics? And should reliability not be a factor considered in a car purchase?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 06, 2019, 10:02:27 AM
Best by what metrics? And should reliability not be a factor considered in a car purchase?
Back up your reliability concerns with THAT SPECIFIC engine
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 06, 2019, 10:02:27 AM
Best by what metrics? And should reliability not be a factor considered in a car purchase?
Smoothest, most refined, very powerful for its size, good sounding. BMW has never stopped making the best powertrains in the business.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on March 06, 2019, 09:48:40 AM
BMW & Toyota are already cooperating to share costs in segments where volume is dwindling as in the Z4/Supra common car (and it seems they did a pretty good job). The sports sedan segment is also in decline. Why wouldn't Toyota consider using what is widely acknowledged as the best engine in the segment?
I know, because here reliability over 10 years is the one and only concern when buying any car. The CarSpin alternate reality and group-think (with some exceptions) is staggering.
So it cost then or performance that is the driver?
And what exactly about BMW engines would Toyota be drawn too? After all, Toyota's built more I6s that BMW could ever hope to, and has/had hi-po V8s and V10s that were reliable and durable (unlike BMW).
If a motor can't last 10 years that absolutely must be a prime purchasing consideration. BMW has a chronic legacy of poor engine design, but most automakers do not.
The Supra will flop hugely. It was a bad call by Toyota. Spend the effort on something that matters. I suspect there was some behind-the-scenes horse trading.
C'mom, BMW is a far more iconic brand that Toyota will ever be in respect to sports cars/sedans. Toyota with a BMW engine will be a selling point to a far larger market than just the import fanboyz.
"You bought a Toyota?" :facepalm:
"Well, it has a BMW engine." :praise:
"Ahhh, I see." :ohyeah:
The new Supra will have essentially zero sales volume as a Toyota with a BMW engine will be a selling point to precisely no one - it's bound to have the boring-ness of Toyota and the engine reliability problems of BMW. All in all, BMW fanboys will buy the Z4, Toyota/Supra fanboys wouldn't ever touch such a thing, and know nothin' $50k+ sports car buyers won't be window shopping Toyota dealers.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on March 06, 2019, 11:35:39 AM
Smoothest, most refined, very powerful for its size, good sounding. BMW has never stopped making the best powertrains in the business.
I'll give you smoothest... most refined is debatable, sound is a strawman as what you hear in the car is fake. And you didn't answer the reliability question.....
I'm not saying a BMW will leave you stranded on the road... but they are def a downgrade in reliability compared to Toyota/Lexus.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 06, 2019, 01:09:19 PM
The new Supra will have essentially zero sales volume as a Toyota with a BMW engine will be a selling point to precisely no one - it's bound to have the boring-ness of Toyota and the engine reliability problems of BMW. All in all, BMW fanboys will buy the Z4, Toyota/Supra fanboys wouldn't ever touch such a thing, and know nothin' $50k+ sports car buyers won't be window shopping Toyota dealers.
You should apply for a job at Toyota and replace Akio Toyoda. That old man clearly has no clue what he's done and how he's about to ruin the Toyota brand for generations to come... :devil:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 06, 2019, 01:36:09 PM
You should apply for a job at Toyota and replace Akio Toyoda. That old man clearly has no clue what he's done and how he's about to ruin the Toyota brand for generations to come... :devil:
I suspect that there is something secret happening, and the result is this waste-of-time Supra. No one as presented one iota of advantage for Toyota doing this, esp. technical.
Perhaps Toyota is testing waters on buying BMW, or buying a large stake (a la Subaru/Fuji HI and the FT-86, which proved to be a mild hit for Toyota).
Quote from: GoCougs on March 06, 2019, 01:42:52 PM
I suspect that there is something secret happening, and the result is this waste-of-time Supra. No one as presented one iota of advantage for Toyota doing this, esp. technical.
Perhaps Toyota is testing waters on buying BMW, or buying a large stake (a la Subaru/Fuji HI and the FT-86, which proved to be a mild hit for Toyota).
Why would Toyota enter into an engineering collaboration with BMW if their engines are so "unreliable"? Akio Toyoda looked delighted when he signed that contract with BMW.
I don't think BMW engines are that bad. I think the whole 335i turbo issues put a bad light on BMW engines in general and now people think "all" BMW engines suck.
And it's not like Toyota engines don't have issues. I recently found out that the famed older Land Cruisers also had issues and weaknesses, namely sensitive head gaskets among others. But reliability also takes into account how
cheap and
easy a car is to fix and in that regard Toyota has an advantage over BMW.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on March 06, 2019, 09:48:40 AM
BMW & Toyota are already cooperating to share costs in segments where volume is dwindling as in the Z4/Supra common car (and it seems they did a pretty good job). The sports sedan segment is also in decline. Why wouldn't Toyota consider using what is widely acknowledged as the best engine in the segment?
I know, because here reliability over 10 years is the one and only concern when buying any car. The CarSpin alternate reality and group-think (with some exceptions) is staggering.
Sorry we don't all have five other BMWs to use when one of ours is in the shop.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 06, 2019, 03:57:58 PM
Sorry we don't all have five other BMWs to use when one of ours is in the shop.
I didn't want to repeat myself :lol:
If you get a Supra:
* you're going to have another car
* it's going to be driven infrequently
* you can surely afford repairs
* pay to play brah
Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 06, 2019, 03:57:58 PM
Sorry we don't all have five other BMWs to use when one of ours is in the shop.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 06, 2019, 04:26:34 PM
I didn't want to repeat myself :lol:
Well, I'll come across like an ass but whatever.
You guys are not in the target market for these new entry-luxury sedans. BMW/Lexus couldn't care less about your opinion. Most people don't buy new in this segment with a primary concern of 10 year total bulletproof reliability.
There.
Also, FWIW all my BMWs with inline sixes have spent close to zero time in the shop for engine issues.
E46 M3 - Now at 106K kilometers (about 70K miles). One alternator replacement, no other issues (it needs a cooling system refresh now).
1M - With the oh so unreliable exploding N54 engine. It has 43K kilometers. It's been in a couple of times for injector/coil issues. Total downtime maybe 6-8 days.
New M3. Obviously flawless. It better be so far.
It's not even about 10 year reliability. Forget us- actual F30 owners filed a class action lawsuit against BMW for the N20 timing chain failures. None of those cars are 10 years old and yet there have been enough engine failures to warrant a class action lawsuit. Suit is still open but it's not looking good for BMW.
Since we're being asses your ownership experience is kind of irrelevant. You drive your cars like 4k miles a year. You live in a country with cheap labor so it's no issue to get stuff fixed. Etc. Not really representative of the average BMW owner if that is our yardstick of relevance.
And again Toyota literally just made a brand new twin turbo V6. None of this makes any sense
I feel like you guys are being a bit needlessly anti BMW here. Lets not kid ourselves, Lexus' 350 badged cars are slower than the _30 badged BMW cars and can't even keep up long enough to see the tail lights of the _40 cars. Its the same story against Audi and Mercedes. I'm not sure what the deal with their new TTV6 in the LS and if they can actually spread that out across their lineup, but maybe its too cost prohibitive and something like this was the quick and easy fix to that.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on March 06, 2019, 08:20:45 PM
You guys are not in the target market for these new entry-luxury sedans.
I'm a 31 year old male making an upper-middle class income. If that's not the target market for a 3er, I don't know what is.
Quote from: Xer0 on March 06, 2019, 08:42:45 PM
I feel like you guys are being a bit needlessly anti BMW here. Lets not kid ourselves, Lexus' 350 badged cars are slower than the _30 badged BMW cars and can't even keep up long enough to see the tail lights of the _40 cars. Its the same story against Audi and Mercedes. I'm not sure what the deal with their new TTV6 in the LS and if they can actually spread that out across their lineup, but maybe its too cost prohibitive and something like this was the quick and easy fix to that.
I won't speak for everyone else here, I'm just saying that Toyota/Lexus's primary selling point is their reputation for reliability and cheap maintenance, so I'm questioning the wisdom of them using an engine from a brand that has a reputation for expensive maintenance.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 06, 2019, 01:48:50 PM
Why would Toyota enter into an engineering collaboration with BMW if their engines are so "unreliable"? Akio Toyoda looked delighted when he signed that contract with BMW.
I don't think BMW engines are that bad. I think the whole 335i turbo issues put a bad light on BMW engines in general and now people think "all" BMW engines suck.
And it's not like Toyota engines don't have issues. I recently found out that the famed older Land Cruisers also had issues and weaknesses, namely sensitive head gaskets among others. But reliability also takes into account how cheap and easy a car is to fix and in that regard Toyota has an advantage over BMW.
Again, I think something else is going on behind the scenes, as I suggested. Could be the easiest explanation is the best explanation - Toyota doesn't have or doesn't want to spend much time/money on a sports car, so it's either the BMW partnership or no Supra (and to be fair, it worked out okay with the FT-86).
The Landcruiser is quite literally the most reliable, most durable, longest-lived vehicle on sale today, in any market, at any price, and it's been that way for a while. It's not perfect, but there is nothing better in these three regards.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 07, 2019, 10:00:22 AM
I won't speak for everyone else here, I'm just saying that Toyota/Lexus's primary selling point is their reputation for reliability and cheap maintenance, so I'm questioning the wisdom of them using an engine from a brand that has a reputation for expensive maintenance.
Sure, but Lexus can't trade on only reliability. As everyone catches up and the gap from most reliable to least reliable shrinks, and the prevalence of leases increases, there needs to be something else there besides just "more reliable than the Germans". They are trending into more performance but all of their engines from a pure numbers perspective lag behind the Germans; their 2.0T gets walked by any German 2.0T, their 3.5 V6 gets destroyed by all the German 3.0Ts, and their 5.6 V8 is embarrassed by the German 4.0Ts. Maybe they just decided that it makes more sense to buy something that works in the interim than let the Germans further pass them up in performance.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 07, 2019, 10:00:22 AM
I'm a 31 year old male making an upper-middle class income. If that's not the target market for a 3er, I don't know what is.
And apparently robotics enginerd G37 owners also need not apply ;).
That post was outta touch. BMW has a rich history of design and engineering shortcomings, and it turns a lot of people off.
IMO it sours the used market somewhat, but the world's your oyster when it's under warranty...
Quote from: Xer0 on March 07, 2019, 10:48:02 AM
Sure, but Lexus can't trade on only reliability. As everyone catches up and the gap from most reliable to least reliable shrinks, and the prevalence of leases increases, there needs to be something else there besides just "more reliable than the Germans". They are trending into more performance but all of their engines from a pure numbers perspective lag behind the Germans; their 2.0T gets walked by any German 2.0T, their 3.5 V6 gets destroyed by all the German 3.0Ts, and their 5.6 V8 is embarrassed by the German 4.0Ts. Maybe they just decided that it makes more sense to buy something that works in the interim than let the Germans further pass them up in performance.
Are people really
buying leasing German compact sedans for performance and driving engagement? All 3 German brands don't offer sticks in their "sport" sedans. I don't think anyone does anymore. So in terms of actually selling cars all this bench racing stuff is irrelevant.
Lexus can and does sell on reliability- that is how they curb stomped the Germans upon their debut and how they have carved out big profitable market share. Up until the Model 3 the ES has been the top selling midsize luxury sedan for decades. RX is the midsize luxury CUV king, NX is in the mix in the compacts. Me and MCM are the only kinds of idiots taking our luxury cars to track days... all this performance stuff is irrelevant
Reliability isn't as relevant as it used to be with leasing getting more and more prevalent, but I think leasing and what seems like planned obsolescence on the German's part create a feedback cycle. German luxury cars lose value way faster than Japanese luxury cars as a result. I'll pull up some numbers later
Quote from: Laconian on March 07, 2019, 11:04:33 AM
IMO it sours the used market somewhat, but the world's your oyster when it's under warranty...
Money is only one piece of the cost of an unreliable car.....
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 07, 2019, 11:13:47 AM
Are people really buying leasing German compact sedans for performance and driving engagement? All 3 German brands don't offer sticks in their "sport" sedans. I don't think anyone does anymore. So in terms of actually selling cars all this bench racing stuff is irrelevant.
Lexus can and does sell on reliability- that is how they curb stomped the Germans upon their debut and how they have carved out big profitable market share. Up until the Model 3 the ES has been the top selling midsize luxury sedan for decades. RX is the midsize luxury CUV king, NX is in the mix in the compacts. Me and MCM are the only kinds of idiots taking our luxury cars to track days... all this performance stuff is irrelevant
Reliability isn't as relevant as it used to be with leasing getting more and more prevalent, but I think leasing and what seems like planned obsolescence on the German's part create a feedback cycle. German luxury cars lose value way faster than Japanese luxury cars as a result. I'll pull up some numbers later
Why are you assuming performance is irrelevant? Ferrari and Lambo have no manuals, are you going to tell me they don't care about performance too? And if performance is irrelevant, why has Lexus dumped considerable money into developing hi-po engines in the F 5.0 and the LFA? Bench racing is not nor has ever been irrelevant. If you open up a comparison between cars and see that one car, the Lexus, is considerably slower at every engine level than its direct competitors that is not "irrelevant". If performance was irrelevant than cars would not be getting faster and faster and more and more powerful every iteration.
Lexus can't sell on only reliability and they know this. Eventually there will be something that's either A) more reliable or B) not materially less reliable. They can either sit here and only rely on that, or they can try and succeed at other things too.
The Japanese (near) luxury marques have mos def failed in the realm of powertrain development. No question. Until just now each has been flogging the same N/A V6 and lackluser transmissions for more than a decade, and IMO that has been at the core of the slide, esp. with Acura and Infiniti.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 07, 2019, 11:13:47 AM
Are people really buying leasing German compact sedans for performance and driving engagement? All 3 German brands don't offer sticks in their "sport" sedans. I don't think anyone does anymore. So in terms of actually selling cars all this bench racing stuff is irrelevant.
I mean, I did...I just went with the Golf R this time around because it seemed the best fit for me. IMHO it is pretty comparable the the BMW/Audi/MB entry level compacts, but it was available with a manual (or in BMW's case, more readily available).
I guess BMW has a raging performance car fan base compared to Lexus because they like the badge design better - not the actual performance
I could have bought a 3-Series (or higher) but instead chose to get 2 different cars that fulfilled my needs better. My wife could buy just about any car on the market with cash and still chooses to drive an econobox because it's pretty much guaranteed to get her to work and back every day. Even if BMW or Audi made a car that worked size wise, just the hassle of having to use the warranty and knowing that I likely owned a ticking time bomb after the car was paid off was enough to deter me from getting one. Same with VW. The local dealers were offering brand new GTI's for around 20-21 grand a couple of years ago and I still couldn't pull the trigger.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 07, 2019, 11:13:47 AM
Are people really buying leasing German compact sedans for performance and driving engagement? All 3 German brands don't offer sticks in their "sport" sedans. I don't think anyone does anymore. So in terms of actually selling cars all this bench racing stuff is irrelevant.
Lexus can and does sell on reliability- that is how they curb stomped the Germans upon their debut and how they have carved out big profitable market share. Up until the Model 3 the ES has been the top selling midsize luxury sedan for decades. RX is the midsize luxury CUV king, NX is in the mix in the compacts. Me and MCM are the only kinds of idiots taking our luxury cars to track days... all this performance stuff is irrelevant
Reliability isn't as relevant as it used to be with leasing getting more and more prevalent, but I think leasing and what seems like planned obsolescence on the German's part create a feedback cycle. German luxury cars lose value way faster than Japanese luxury cars as a result. I'll pull up some numbers later
Quote from: Xer0 on March 07, 2019, 11:35:57 AM
Why are you assuming performance is irrelevant? Ferrari and Lambo have no manuals, are you going to tell me they don't care about performance too? And if performance is irrelevant, why has Lexus dumped considerable money into developing hi-po engines in the F 5.0 and the LFA? Bench racing is not nor has ever been irrelevant. If you open up a comparison between cars and see that one car, the Lexus, is considerably slower at every engine level than its direct competitors that is not "irrelevant". If performance was irrelevant than cars would not be getting faster and faster and more and more powerful every iteration.
Lexus can't sell on only reliability and they know this. Eventually there will be something that's either A) more reliable or B) not materially less reliable. They can either sit here and only rely on that, or they can try and succeed at other things too.
Performance isn't relevant to the average luxury buyer. The fact that you had to jump to sports cars and hi po models in a discussion about run of the mill BMWs speaks to this.
You look at the breakout of used F30s on Cars.com.... 3500 of those are 320is or 328ds. 6500 are 328/330is, 1400 are 335/340is and I think there are 500 M3s. If the "sport" sedan market is so performance crazy why did the weaksauce 320i outsell the hot rod 6 banger 3s by nearly 2 to 1? It shouldn't even exist by your logic. The reality is the bulk of luxury buyers don't give a shit :huh: A 320i is quick enough to commute in and has a luxury badge... the latter of which being something that actually matters to buyers/leasees.
Lexus sells on a lot more than reliability. Lexuses are luxurious, well built, well designed and very good value. BMW has plenty going for it that has nothing to do with performance. This "performance sells" trap is exactly why Cadillac and Jaguar are on death's door. People don't care.
Quote from: r0tor on March 07, 2019, 12:53:06 PM
I guess BMW has a raging performance car fan base compared to Lexus because they like the badge design better - not the actual performance
Don't confuse volume with size.... the bulk of BMW buyers demonstrably don't give a shit about performance; if they did models like the 320i and 530i wouldn't outsell the performance editions handily.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 07, 2019, 12:55:46 PM
Performance isn't relevant to the average luxury buyer. The fact that you had to jump to sports cars and hi po models in a discussion about run of the mill BMWs speaks to this.
You look at the breakout of used F30s on Cars.com.... 3500 of those are 320is or 328ds. 6500 are 328/330is, 1400 are 335/340is and I think there are 500 M3s. If the "sport" sedan market is so performance crazy why did the weaksauce 320i outsell the hot rod 6 banger 3s by nearly 2 to 1? It shouldn't even exist by your logic. The reality is the bulk of luxury buyers don't give a shit :huh: A 320i is quick enough to commute in and has a luxury badge... the latter of which being something that actually matters to buyers/leasees.
Lexus sells on a lot more than reliability. Lexuses are luxurious, well built, well designed and very good value. BMW has plenty going for it that has nothing to do with performance. This "performance sells" trap is exactly why Cadillac and Jaguar are on death's door. People don't care.
Can you for once even pretend to have a good faith conversation with what a person said rather than what you wish they said? I know it makes it easier to just put your head in the ground and pretend otherwise, but its tiring.
Seriously, even arguing with a baseless strawman your post is a mess. If people didn't care about performance than there wouldn't be anything other than a 320 out there, so thanks for negating your own point. Also, the better performing 328 has more examples of the worse performing 320 in your own sample :lol:. Performance maters, and no amount of you desperately trying to be a contrarian will change that.
And bringing up Cadilac and Jaguar, seriously? All that proves is that buyers just want other stuff on top of their performance and don't value that as the only thing. Unless you are going to try and pretend like those cars excelled at anything other than turning lol. Although, you seem desperate so you just might :huh:
But here, we'll make this easy for you to follow. Performance maters, especially when you are not competitive from a powertrain standpoint in your class. Lexus has been lax on its powertrain development for the last 10+ years. Taking an engine from BMW that works could have just been an easier/more cost effective for them than developing their own.
Quote from: Xer0 on March 07, 2019, 10:48:02 AM
Sure, but Lexus can't trade on only reliability. As everyone catches up and the gap from most reliable to least reliable shrinks, and the prevalence of leases increases, there needs to be something else there besides just "more reliable than the Germans". They are trending into more performance but all of their engines from a pure numbers perspective lag behind the Germans; their 2.0T gets walked by any German 2.0T, their 3.5 V6 gets destroyed by all the German 3.0Ts, and their 5.6 V8 is embarrassed by the German 4.0Ts. Maybe they just decided that it makes more sense to buy something that works in the interim than let the Germans further pass them up in performance.
I don't know about the market as a whole, but personally, I would be less likely to purchase an IS if it has a BMW engine. I'd probably just get a 3er instead.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 07, 2019, 10:41:56 AM
Again, I think something else is going on behind the scenes, as I suggested. Could be the easiest explanation is the best explanation - Toyota doesn't have or doesn't want to spend much time/money on a sports car, so it's either the BMW partnership or no Supra (and to be fair, it worked out okay with the FT-86).
The Landcruiser is quite literally the most reliable, most durable, longest-lived vehicle on sale today, in any market, at any price, and it's been that way for a while. It's not perfect, but there is nothing better in these three regards.
Boy, it sounds like you really swallowed that "Pursuit of Perfection" tag line :huh:.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 07, 2019, 01:56:06 PM
I don't know about the market as a whole, but personally, I would be less likely to purchase an IS if it has a BMW engine. I'd probably just get a 3er instead.
Sure, when its time to pull the trigger and spend money on something it becomes a personal choice. Personally, I would be way more likely to buy an IS over a 3 series if it had the BMW I6 in it since as a package I vastly prefer the IS but don't like how far behind its powertrains are vs the 3 series. Although I wouldn't touch the Supra unless it has a Toyota engine :lol:
Ultimately, I think this is nothing more than Lexus plugging their powertain deficiencies in an as easy and cost effective way as possible. Assuming this rumor is true.
I think I just learned cheaper models sell better then expensive ones thanks to carspin
Quote from: Xer0 on March 07, 2019, 01:27:26 PM
Can you for once even pretend to have a good faith conversation with what a person said rather than what you wish they said? I know it makes it easier to just put your head in the ground and pretend otherwise, but its tiring.
Seriously, even arguing with a baseless strawman your post is a mess. If people didn't care about performance than there wouldn't be anything other than a 320 out there, so thanks for negating your own point. Also, the better performing 328 has more examples of the worse performing 320 in your own sample :lol:. Performance maters, and no amount of you desperately trying to be a contrarian will change that.
And bringing up Cadilac and Jaguar, seriously? All that proves is that buyers just want other stuff on top of their performance and don't value that as the only thing. Unless you are going to try and pretend like those cars excelled at anything other than turning lol. Although, you seem desperate so you just might :huh:
But here, we'll make this easy for you to follow. Performance maters, especially when you are not competitive from a powertrain standpoint in your class. Lexus has been lax on its powertrain development for the last 10+ years. Taking an engine from BMW that works could have just been an easier/more cost effective for them than developing their own.
So BMW's performance advantage matters (vs the IS) until it doesn't (against the countless competitors across its lifespan that offered better performance for the money). And I didn't even talk about how much the F30 regressed dynamically. Please don't whine to me about discussing things in good faith.
Here is the main reason why the 3 series continues to be the segment sales king:
(https://independentmotors.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/BMW-hood-emblem-how-to-change-your-BMW-roundel-ornament-BMW-repair-1280x720.jpg)
It's to the point now that BMW is basically slapping a roundel on an IS....
(https://s3.paultan.org/image/2018/10/G20-BMW-3-Series-6-e1538474754450-850x480.jpg)
My (as yet unchallenged) point remains....BMW engines aren't gonna turn the IS' fortunes around, nor does that pairing make any sense outside of some partnership we don't know about.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 07, 2019, 04:44:23 PM
So BMW's performance advantage matters (vs the IS) until it doesn't (against the countless competitors across its lifespan that offered better performance for the money). And I didn't even talk about how much the F30 regressed dynamically. Please don't whine to me about discussing things in good faith.
Here is the main reason why the 3 series continues to be the segment sales king:
(https://independentmotors.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/BMW-hood-emblem-how-to-change-your-BMW-roundel-ornament-BMW-repair-1280x720.jpg)
It's to the point now that BMW is basically slapping a roundel on an IS....
(https://s3.paultan.org/image/2018/10/G20-BMW-3-Series-6-e1538474754450-850x480.jpg)
My (as yet unchallenged) point remains....BMW engines aren't gonna turn the IS' fortunes around, nor does that pairing make any sense outside of some partnership we don't know about.
Round and round and round you go. Do you even know what you're arguing about any more cause I sure as hell don't :lol: Although if you constantly put things in people's mouth and misinterpret them I guess it doesn't really mater, you can just make it up whenever you want :thumbsup:
Your point was originally that performance is irrelevant. Then you proceeded to post sales numbers from cars.com that are A) pointless and prove nothing since price is a factor when people buy things you know and B) if they do prove anything its that more people bought the better performing and more expensive 328 over the 320, instantly making your point full of shit. Good job cowboy. Also good job ignoring this, Mr expert bad faith interneting.
And NOW your point magically morphs into "a BMW engine won't change the IS's sales figures". I mean...okay?
I can't wait to see what your new point is when you have to dive even bigger into that troll hole of yours :lol:
We don't know why Lexus is doing this, if they even are, but their powertrains are lacking and this fixes that problem cleanly and easily. Although since performance doesn't mater they can just hire you on their staff and save a bunch of money by not putting in anything but a Corolla engine in their cars :hammerhead:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 07, 2019, 11:13:47 AM
Are people really buying leasing German compact sedans for performance and driving engagement? All 3 German brands don't offer sticks in their "sport" sedans. I don't think anyone does anymore. So in terms of actually selling cars all this bench racing stuff is irrelevant.
Lexus can and does sell on reliability- that is how they curb stomped the Germans upon their debut and how they have carved out big profitable market share. Up until the Model 3 the ES has been the top selling midsize luxury sedan for decades. RX is the midsize luxury CUV king, NX is in the mix in the compacts. Me and MCM are the only kinds of idiots taking our luxury cars to track days... all this performance stuff is irrelevant
Reliability isn't as relevant as it used to be with leasing getting more and more prevalent, but I think leasing and what seems like planned obsolescence on the German's part create a feedback cycle. German luxury cars lose value way faster than Japanese luxury cars as a result. I'll pull up some numbers later
Audi still sells the A4 Quattro with a stick.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 07, 2019, 12:57:31 PM
Don't confuse volume with size.... the bulk of BMW buyers demonstrably don't give a shit about performance; if they did models like the 320i and 530i wouldn't outsell the performance editions handily.
Do the performance versions cost the same as 320i and the 530i? It's like you're trying to decide whether instant ramen tastes better than caviar by comparing sales volume. You just did the "If Ferraris are so great, why do so many more people buy Camrys?" You're better than that.
Besides, how can you look at a purchase and say performance isn't important to someone just because they went with a smaller engine? There's more to driving a car than the horsepower number, and there's certainly a lot more to buying one than that. I mean, I don't have a dog in this fight, but you're making a ridiculous assertion.
Quote from: Raza on March 08, 2019, 12:15:59 AM
Audi still sells the A4 Quattro with a stick.
No, they don't.
Quote from: 2o6 on March 08, 2019, 01:12:42 AM
No, they don't.
You're right. They must have dropped it for the 19 models; the 18s had a stick.