Next Lexus IS Might Get Supra’s BMW-Sourced Straight Six

[12,000 RPM]

I guess BMW has a raging performance car fan base compared to Lexus because they like the badge design better - not the actual performance

Don't confuse volume with size.... the bulk of BMW buyers demonstrably don't give a shit about performance; if they did models like the 320i and 530i wouldn't outsell the performance editions handily.

[Xer0]

Performance isn't relevant to the average luxury buyer. The fact that you had to jump to sports cars and hi po models in a discussion about run of the mill BMWs speaks to this.

You look at the breakout of used F30s on Cars.com.... 3500 of those are 320is or 328ds. 6500 are 328/330is, 1400 are 335/340is and I think there are 500 M3s. If the "sport" sedan market is so performance crazy why did the weaksauce 320i outsell the hot rod 6 banger 3s by nearly 2 to 1? It shouldn't even exist by your logic. The reality is the bulk of luxury buyers don't give a shit A 320i is quick enough to commute in and has a luxury badge... the latter of which being something that actually matters to buyers/leasees.

Lexus sells on a lot more than reliability. Lexuses are luxurious, well built, well designed and very good value. BMW has plenty going for it that has nothing to do with performance. This "performance sells" trap is exactly why Cadillac and Jaguar are on death's door. People don't care.

Can you for once even pretend to have a good faith conversation with what a person said rather than what you wish they said?  I know it makes it easier to just put your head in the ground and pretend otherwise, but its tiring.

Seriously, even arguing with a baseless strawman your post is a mess.  If people didn't care about performance than there wouldn't be anything other than a 320 out there, so thanks for negating your own point.  Also, the better performing 328 has more examples of the worse performing 320 in your own sample  .  Performance maters, and no amount of you desperately trying to be a contrarian will change that.

And bringing up Cadilac and Jaguar, seriously?  All that proves is that buyers just want other stuff on top of their performance and don't value that as the only thing.  Unless you are going to try and pretend like those cars excelled at anything other than turning lol.  Although, you seem desperate so you just might 

But here, we'll make this easy for you to follow.  Performance maters, especially when you are not competitive from a powertrain standpoint in your class.  Lexus has been lax on its powertrain development for the last 10+ years.  Taking an engine from BMW that works could have just been an easier/more cost effective for them than developing their own. 

[BimmerM3]

Sure, but Lexus can't trade on only reliability.  As everyone catches up and the gap from most reliable to least reliable shrinks, and the prevalence of leases increases, there needs to be something else there besides just "more reliable than the Germans".  They are trending into more performance but all of their engines from a pure numbers perspective lag behind the Germans; their 2.0T gets walked by any German 2.0T, their 3.5 V6 gets destroyed by all the German 3.0Ts, and their 5.6 V8 is embarrassed by the German 4.0Ts.  Maybe they just decided that it makes more sense to buy something that works in the interim than let the Germans further pass them up in performance.

I don't know about the market as a whole, but personally, I would be less likely to purchase an IS if it has a BMW engine. I'd probably just get a 3er instead.

[FoMoJo]

Again, I think something else is going on behind the scenes, as I suggested. Could be the easiest explanation is the best explanation - Toyota doesn't have or doesn't want to spend much time/money on a sports car, so it's either the BMW partnership or no Supra (and to be fair, it worked out okay with the FT-86).

The Landcruiser is quite literally the most reliable, most durable, longest-lived vehicle on sale today, in any market, at any price, and it's been that way for a while. It's not perfect, but there is nothing better in these three regards.

Boy, it sounds like you really swallowed that "Pursuit of Perfection" tag line .

[Xer0]

I don't know about the market as a whole, but personally, I would be less likely to purchase an IS if it has a BMW engine. I'd probably just get a 3er instead.

Sure, when its time to pull the trigger and spend money on something it becomes a personal choice.  Personally, I would be way more likely to buy an IS over a 3 series if it had the BMW I6 in it since as a package I vastly prefer the IS but don't like how far behind its powertrains are vs the 3 series.  Although I wouldn't touch the Supra unless it has a Toyota engine 

Ultimately, I think this is nothing more than Lexus plugging their powertain deficiencies in an as easy and cost effective way as possible.  Assuming this rumor is true.

[r0tor]

I think I just learned cheaper models sell better then expensive ones thanks to carspin

[12,000 RPM]

Can you for once even pretend to have a good faith conversation with what a person said rather than what you wish they said?  I know it makes it easier to just put your head in the ground and pretend otherwise, but its tiring.

Seriously, even arguing with a baseless strawman your post is a mess.  If people didn't care about performance than there wouldn't be anything other than a 320 out there, so thanks for negating your own point.  Also, the better performing 328 has more examples of the worse performing 320 in your own sample  .  Performance maters, and no amount of you desperately trying to be a contrarian will change that.

And bringing up Cadilac and Jaguar, seriously?  All that proves is that buyers just want other stuff on top of their performance and don't value that as the only thing.  Unless you are going to try and pretend like those cars excelled at anything other than turning lol.  Although, you seem desperate so you just might 

But here, we'll make this easy for you to follow.  Performance maters, especially when you are not competitive from a powertrain standpoint in your class.  Lexus has been lax on its powertrain development for the last 10+ years.  Taking an engine from BMW that works could have just been an easier/more cost effective for them than developing their own.

So BMW's performance advantage matters (vs the IS) until it doesn't (against the countless competitors across its lifespan that offered better performance for the money). And I didn't even talk about how much the F30 regressed dynamically. Please don't whine to me about discussing things in good faith.

Here is the main reason why the 3 series continues to be the segment sales king:



It's to the point now that BMW is basically slapping a roundel on an IS....



My (as yet unchallenged) point remains....BMW engines aren't gonna turn the IS' fortunes around, nor does that pairing make any sense outside of some partnership we don't know about.

[Xer0]

So BMW's performance advantage matters (vs the IS) until it doesn't (against the countless competitors across its lifespan that offered better performance for the money). And I didn't even talk about how much the F30 regressed dynamically. Please don't whine to me about discussing things in good faith.

Here is the main reason why the 3 series continues to be the segment sales king:



It's to the point now that BMW is basically slapping a roundel on an IS....



My (as yet unchallenged) point remains....BMW engines aren't gonna turn the IS' fortunes around, nor does that pairing make any sense outside of some partnership we don't know about.

Round and round and round you go.  Do you even know what you're arguing about any more cause I sure as hell don't   Although if you constantly put things in people's mouth and misinterpret them I guess it doesn't really mater, you can just make it up whenever you want 

Your point was originally that performance is irrelevant.  Then you proceeded to post sales numbers from cars.com that are A) pointless and prove nothing since price is a factor when people buy things you know and B) if they do prove anything its that more people bought the better performing and more expensive 328 over the 320, instantly making your point full of shit.  Good job cowboy.  Also good job ignoring this, Mr expert bad faith interneting.

And NOW your point magically morphs into "a BMW engine won't change the IS's sales figures".  I mean...okay?

I can't wait to see what your new point is when you have to dive even bigger into that troll hole of yours

We don't know why Lexus is doing this, if they even are, but their powertrains are lacking and this fixes that problem cleanly and easily.  Although since performance doesn't mater they can just hire you on their staff and save a bunch of money by not putting in anything but a Corolla engine in their cars 

[Raza]

Are people really buying leasing German compact sedans for performance and driving engagement? All 3 German brands don't offer sticks in their "sport" sedans. I don't think anyone does anymore. So in terms of actually selling cars all this bench racing stuff is irrelevant.

Lexus can and does sell on reliability- that is how they curb stomped the Germans upon their debut and how they have carved out big profitable market share. Up until the Model 3 the ES has been the top selling midsize luxury sedan for decades. RX is the midsize luxury CUV king, NX is in the mix in the compacts. Me and MCM are the only kinds of idiots taking our luxury cars to track days... all this performance stuff is irrelevant

Reliability isn't as relevant as it used to be with leasing getting more and more prevalent, but I think leasing and what seems like planned obsolescence on the German's part create a feedback cycle. German luxury cars lose value way faster than Japanese luxury cars as a result. I'll pull up some numbers later

Audi still sells the A4 Quattro with a stick.

[Raza]

Don't confuse volume with size.... the bulk of BMW buyers demonstrably don't give a shit about performance; if they did models like the 320i and 530i wouldn't outsell the performance editions handily.

Do the performance versions cost the same as 320i and the 530i? It's like you're trying to decide whether instant ramen tastes better than caviar by comparing sales volume. You just did the "If Ferraris are so great, why do so many more people buy Camrys?" You're better than that.

Besides, how can you look at a purchase and say performance isn't important to someone just because they went with a smaller engine? There's more to driving a car than the horsepower number, and there's certainly a lot more to buying one than that. I mean, I don't have a dog in this fight, but you're making a ridiculous assertion.

[2o6]

Audi still sells the A4 Quattro with a stick.

No, they don't.

[Raza]

No, they don't.

You're right. They must have dropped it for the 19 models; the 18s had a stick.