2020 VW Golf Mild Hybrid System Revealed

Started by cawimmer430, May 17, 2019, 05:23:20 AM

Laconian

What if they symposed the sound of an idling engine through the car stereo? Maybe they could simulate the thrum with a haptic motor under your butt.
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12,000 RPM

I'm telling you, video games have got really good at simulating engine sounds

The tech is there; the question is implementation. There have to be dedicated speakers separate from the stereo, and for performance cars they have to be LOUD
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veeman

Completely artificial simulated sound is probably more lame than start/stop though.  Kind of like a band which generates most of its sound from a computer rather than instruments.

Laconian

Hey, don't go comparing BMW symposed lameness to awesome electronic bands :rage:
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MrH

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68_427

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 21, 2019, 04:51:10 AM
I'm telling you, video games have got really good at simulating engine sounds

The tech is there; the question is implementation. There have to be dedicated speakers separate from the stereo, and for performance cars they have to be LOUD

Doesn't VAG put speakers under the rear of some cars?
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cawimmer430

Not a fan of a Start-Stop, primarily because I feel it is unnecessary wear and tear. Is it? I always turn it off in my A250.

The best Start-Stop system I experienced was actually in a 2014 Volkswagen Golf Convertible 1.2 TSI.

Link: https://www.carspin.club/index.php?topic=35127.0

Smooth stops and restarts.
-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



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2o6

Not every stop start is the same. The one on the "eco" (GM mild hybrid) models just use the electric generator to turn the motor itself; it's quick, seamless and quiet.

The less sophisticated IMO ones use the actual starter motor, and it's kinda loud and comparatively slow.


BMW has some of the worse stop/start out. GM is generally OK, but you should be able to turn it off.

cawimmer430

Quote from: 2o6 on May 23, 2019, 04:43:45 PM
Not every stop start is the same. The one on the "eco" (GM mild hybrid) models just use the electric generator to turn the motor itself; it's quick, seamless and quiet.

The less sophisticated IMO ones use the actual starter motor, and it's kinda loud and comparatively slow.


BMW has some of the worse stop/start out. GM is generally OK, but you should be able to turn it off.

But will it affect engine [parts] durability? The constant Start-Stopping in heavy traffic has got to take its reliability/longevity toll eventually.
-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



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12,000 RPM

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 24, 2019, 08:11:29 AM
But will it affect engine [parts] durability? The constant Start-Stopping in heavy traffic has got to take its reliability/longevity toll eventually.
I think the net effect of the engine running less more than offsets the starting and especially the stopping of it. What harm does turning an engine off do?
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giant_mtb

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 24, 2019, 08:37:18 AM
I think the net effect of the engine running less more than offsets the starting and especially the stopping of it. What harm does turning an engine off do?

When the engine starts, there's a point before the two surfaces become separated by the oil film called the 'boundary condition', where the crankshaft is spinning, but there's metal-to-metal contact between the bearing surfaces.

This is when most wear takes place. Fitting stop-start means the boundary condition (and metal-to-metal contact) could exist perhaps 500,000 times in the life of the engine instead of 50,000 and normal bearings would wear out long before that.


https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/stop-start-long-term-impact-your-car-s-engine

Only time will tell if stop-start reduces engine life, as the engineers obviously consider wear in development.

CaminoRacer

I don't think most cars are stopped long enough for the oil to return to the pan.

If they do, automakers could always install Accusump systems to counteract that.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Galaxy

Plus does the oil pump on cars equipped with start stop not keep running anyways? I think they are all electric, and not belt driven in these types of operation.

93JC

:confused:

Not to say such a thing doesn't exist, but I've never heard of a car with an electric oil pump. Or belt-driven for that matter; I've never seen one that wasn't mechanical (usually driven off a camshaft or the crankshaft itself).

I've certainly never heard the hum of an electric pump from any vehicle I've driven with stop-start.

MX793

Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 24, 2019, 09:26:52 AM
I don't think most cars are stopped long enough for the oil to return to the pan.

If they do, automakers could always install Accusump systems to counteract that.

Correct.  Cold starts put a lot of wear and tear on the engine because there won't be much oil film left from the last time the engine ran to provide optimal lubrication and protection.  Also, cold oil is more viscous and doesn't flow into nooks and crannies as easily.  Hot starts are a different story.  Particularly if we're talking only a minute or two of off time.  All of the oil pumped into the top end of the motor will still be there, and will be at operating temperature and viscosity.  Main reason constantly turning your car on and off is discouraged on regular cars is because the starter motor typically isn't spec'ed or sized for that much use.  A car with start/stop will have an appropriately spec'ed starter.
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Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: 93JC on May 24, 2019, 10:37:14 AM
:confused:

Not to say such a thing doesn't exist, but I've never heard of a car with an electric oil pump. Or belt-driven for that matter; I've never seen one that wasn't mechanical (usually driven off a camshaft or the crankshaft itself).

I've certainly never heard the hum of an electric pump from any vehicle I've driven with stop-start.

1.0 Ecoboost has belt driven oil pump. Yay. Oil bath timing belt. :rockon:
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12,000 RPM

We also have to keep in mind that hybrids, which are basically properly done start-stop systems, have been in play for 2 decades.... I have yet to hear any premature ICE wear from them.

I would not be surprised if hybrids are equipped with some kind of engine oil heating systems to help with stuff like this. Or maybe that's not even necessary as with batteries being less efficient in the cold the ICE probably has to run more.

Point being it's no issue. The only real point worth worrying about is the starter.
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cawimmer430

I've used the Start-Stop system in my A250 a few times, but only when the engine, oil, water temperature is warm. If the system was guaranteed to make a big difference in fuel economy I'd probably use it more often. I can get used to the sensation and sounds of the engine shutting down at every light if I forced myself to. I just don't think it's worth having the motor shut down for 1-2 minutes at every light. The fuel you save while idling is probably gonna be burned anyway when you accelerate after the light turns green.

Interestingly enough, my engine oil takes about 20 km of driving in cold weather (after a cold start) to reach its operating temperature - and that after a 23 km long Autobahn drive at 120-130 km/h.

Today was a really hot day, and my engine oil temperature warmed up pretty quickly (after a cold start), after around 9 km of slow city driving (50-60 km/h, stop and go...).

The digital display gives me all of this engine data which I find very useful.
-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



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12,000 RPM

Why would an engine burn more fuel accelerating if it wakes up rather than sitting idling...?
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MX793

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 25, 2019, 01:26:43 PM
Why would an engine burn more fuel accelerating if it wakes up rather than sitting idling...?

Yeah, the engine will burn the same fuel accelerating whether the engine was idling at the light or shut off prior to acceleration.
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AltinD

I've had stop/start on a rental VW Passat last year. Because it was hot summer, I noticed that stopping the engine at a traffic stop would also turn off the A/C compressor

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cawimmer430

As I understand it, engines burn the most fuel while accelerating. The amount of fuel saved with the engine off during 1-3 minutes at a light is probably going to be burnt during acceleration anyway after the light turns green.
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BimmerM3

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 26, 2019, 04:56:03 AM
As I understand it, engines burn the most fuel while accelerating. The amount of fuel saved with the engine off during 1-3 minutes at a light is probably going to be burnt during acceleration anyway after the light turns green.

:confused:

It's a dumb comparison. You have to accelerate either way. Not idling at the light will use less fuel than idling at the light. :huh:

CaminoRacer

Quote from: AltinD on May 25, 2019, 02:57:04 PM
I've had stop/start on a rental VW Passat last year. Because it was hot summer, I noticed that stopping the engine at a traffic stop would also turn off the A/C compressor

Eww.

GM's system has a couple of different levels. If you have the AC on, it won't shut off unless you put it in 'Eco' mode
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BimmerM3

Quote from: AltinD on May 25, 2019, 02:57:04 PM
I've had stop/start on a rental VW Passat last year. Because it was hot summer, I noticed that stopping the engine at a traffic stop would also turn off the A/C compressor

My dad's A4 also does that, but it's smart enough to turn the engine back on early if the cabin is starting to warm up too much.

veeman

Does it turn the fan off as well?  Meaning let's say you have the AC blowing 68 degree air on a medium fan setting when it's 95 degrees out.  And you stop at a traffic light.  Does it turn the AC off and keep the fan on or does it turn the AC off and the fan off?  So you have 68 degree air blowing in your face, followed by 95 degree air for a minute, followed by 68 degree air when it starts back up.  Or it's 68 degree air, followed by no air, followed by 68 degree air when the engine starts back on. 

This reminds me of my friend's energy saver TV he got a few years back.  It would adjust the brightness of his TV depending on the brightness of the room.  He returned it after two days.  He got sick of the TV flickering every time someone opened the door to the room.

93JC

In every car I've driven with stop-start the fan would stay running even if the A/C compressor turned off with the engine. That is to say if the engine would even turn off at all; generally they'd stay on if the A/C was on. Or the engine would automatically start up again to run the A/C compressor if it needed to do so to keep the cabin cool; the Audi I rented in Phoenix last October did that in heavy traffic.

(And don't think for a second that when you set the climate control to "68" that you're getting 68 °F air coming out of the vents, it's cooler than that.)

BimmerM3

Quote from: veeman on May 26, 2019, 10:29:22 PM
Does it turn the fan off as well?  Meaning let's say you have the AC blowing 68 degree air on a medium fan setting when it's 95 degrees out.  And you stop at a traffic light.  Does it turn the AC off and keep the fan on or does it turn the AC off and the fan off?  So you have 68 degree air blowing in your face, followed by 95 degree air for a minute, followed by 68 degree air when it starts back up.  Or it's 68 degree air, followed by no air, followed by 68 degree air when the engine starts back on. 

I'm not sure - I don't pay that much attention. It's never gotten to the point where I noticed it blowing warm air though.