http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/06/bmw-drops-manual-transmission-best-model-help-pay-rd/
QuoteBMW plans to streamline its manufacturing process by providing fewer model variants and eliminating less popular engine or equipment options. The goal here is to free up capital for research and development spending in the coming years, according to a Wednesday announcement from the brand's chief finance officer, Nicolas Peter.
With most German automakers already pushing heavily into the realm of electric vehicles, BMW's strong presence in China is forcing it to further bolster its efforts in EV development. The country's particularly aggressive emission regulations and mandates on electric vehicle sales means any manufacturer hoping to persist within its borders will have to ensure 12 percent of its fleet is electric by 2020 — and BMW isn't ready.
As a result, the automaker is trimming fat wherever it can find it. Unfortunately, that means eliminating the manual gearbox for the 2 Series in the United States and abandoning certain engine options for models across the globe. While BMW wasn't explicit as to which motors won't be returning, odds are good it will be the fun ones that don't sell as well, plus the diesels.
"In the 5 series we have four diesel engines on offer. I would not bet on there being four diesel engines on offer in the next generation vehicle," Peter explained.
While depriving North America of a manual transmission variant of its most enjoyable-to-drive car won't win it new fans, BMW is responding out of necessity. According to Reuters, the automaker spent 5.5 percent of its total revenue on R&D in 2016 and needs to bring that up swiftly if it is to have EVs ready for China.
While sales in the U.S. have stagnated slightly, BMW has witnessed double-digit sales growth in China and remains on track to keep pace with the launch of a longer-wheelbase 5 Series and a new X1, Peter said. But only if it can keep itself in the electric car game by boosting development, hence the cost-cutting measures.
However, BMW can't simply terminate whole models from its lineup and expect to immediately turn a profit from electric vehicle sales — which are still weak, even globally. It needs to maintain internal combustion volume, but it doesn't need to provide those vehicles with a plethora of options.
"We have over one hundred steering wheels on offer. Do we need that many variants?" Peter asked reporters.
If you can remember back to the 1990s, when Chrysler seemed to have only two steering wheels for its entire fleet, then you already know the answer to the question. No, of course not. No automaker needs one hundred distinctive steering wheels. That's absolutely insane and BMW is right to scale back on them. We just wish they'd have stopped there and decided not to take away the manual-transmission 2 Series, as well.
Give me your best shippy spin on this one :lol:
People who fantasize about buying manual BMWs but end up buying more "rational" but inferior used Japanese cars are unfortunately not BMW's product planners priorities.
As compared with people who actually buy new BMWs around the world that keep the brand setting sales records.
^ :lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 28, 2017, 05:51:42 PM
Give me your best shippy spin on this one :lol:
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 28, 2017, 08:31:03 PM
People who fantasize about buying manual BMWs but end up buying more "rational" but inferior used Japanese cars are unfortunately not BMW's product planners priorities.
As compared with people who actually buy new BMWs around the world that keep the brand setting sales records.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O_NEgHkr6do/V3vNYuaR_bI/AAAAAAAAAPY/qopJEIx174sCmBFdxuKF7Y3HyvtTrvC3QCLcB/s1600/not-bad.jpg)
I think there's definitely a market for manual transmission in the BMW 2 series price range but these guys in their 40s are getting Ford, GM, and Dodge pony cars. The Mustang and Camaro can hang with the 2 series on the track and they don't look and feel cheap like they used to.
Quote from: veeman on June 29, 2017, 08:57:15 AM
I think there's definitely a market for manual transmission in the BMW 2 series price range but these guys in their 40s are getting Ford, GM, and Dodge pony cars. The Mustang and Camaro can hang with the 2 series on the track and they don't look and feel cheap like they used to.
Performance-wise the Camaro and Mustang have made huge strides. Having driven both the Mustang and the 2 series however, they feel different enough. The 2 drives "lighter".
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/92/2c/4e/922c4e0ae1e48ce3d4a630bfb437b896.jpg)
As BMW's manual transmissions die, so too does BMW in my eyes. The only viable way for me to be an enthusiast now is to buy an ultrapractical boring vehicle for when I need it and a manual sports car to drive daily. I look at BMW's lineup today and I don't see the company that made cars that I used to love. The only ones that remotely interest me are--wait for it--the ultrapractical boring ones, like the X3 and X5. This is why sedans are dying--they're just impractical SUVs now.
Quote from: Raza on June 29, 2017, 09:15:50 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/92/2c/4e/922c4e0ae1e48ce3d4a630bfb437b896.jpg)
As BMW's manual transmissions die, so too does BMW in my eyes. The only viable way for me to be an enthusiast now is to buy an ultrapractical boring vehicle for when I need it and a manual sports car to drive daily. I look at BMW's lineup today and I don't see the company that made cars that I used to love. The only ones that remotely interest me are--wait for it--the ultrapractical boring ones, like the X3 and X5. This is why sedans are dying--they're just impractical SUVs now.
No love for a manual M2?
Raza, just buy a Miata and call it a day.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 29, 2017, 09:17:10 AM
No love for a manual M2?
Well, it's dead now. Terminally ill, I guess. Otherwise yeah, even though I would probably never buy a two door fixed roof car (unless I had a garage of 3 or more cars), I did like it.
Quote from: MrH on June 29, 2017, 09:27:54 AM
Raza, just buy a Miata and call it a day.
You buy a Miata! I
already have a sports car. Which I'll replace with a faster version of itself in 2 years or so, if all goes to plan.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 28, 2017, 08:31:03 PM
People who fantasize about buying manual BMWs but end up buying more "rational" but inferior used Japanese cars are unfortunately not BMW's product planners priorities.
As compared with people who actually buy new BMWs around the world that keep the brand setting sales records.
This was very good :lol:
Quote from: Raza on June 29, 2017, 09:15:50 AM
As BMW's manual transmissions die, so too does BMW in my eyes. The only viable way for me to be an enthusiast now is to buy an ultrapractical boring vehicle for when I need it and a manual sports car to drive daily. I look at BMW's lineup today and I don't see the company that made cars that I used to love. The only ones that remotely interest me are--wait for it--the ultrapractical boring ones, like the X3 and X5. This is why sedans are dying--they're just impractical SUVs now.
I don't think the two vehicle setup is so bad. Sport sedans have always been inherently compromised, and even with the third pedal the current crop are still as big and heavy as the E39
I can see the appeal of the sport sedan if you only have one place to park.... AND you can actually get out to drive on roads that will demonstrate its advantages over a crossover. But if you can afford and park two cars :huh:
BMW's main objectives are volume and profit so it's going to be what it's going to be. I have been thinking about making a thread asking if shareholders are killing the spirits of auto manufacturers. It seems like car makers are under more pressure than ever to be lean and efficient... if you are not fortunate like Porsche then one off stuff like >4 cylinder stickshift sedans are gonna be a tough sell. Even GM had to fall back. Outside of the M3 and ATS-V, for now, I don't think there are any >4 cylinder stick sedans left
Quote from: Raza on June 29, 2017, 10:03:22 AM
Well, it's dead now. Terminally ill, I guess. Otherwise yeah, even though I would probably never buy a two door fixed roof car (unless I had a garage of 3 or more cars), I did like it.
M2 manual isn't dead. At least for the next couple of years until this generation runs out.
I'm honestly not sure why the 2 series exists at all. I feel like it has higher development costs than the GC and GT cars, but is cheaper. The 2 series is such a weird car; id take a 428i over it any day.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 29, 2017, 10:58:26 AM
I don't think the two vehicle setup is so bad. Sport sedans have always been inherently compromised, and even with the third pedal the current crop are still as big and heavy as the E39
I can see the appeal of the sport sedan if you only have one place to park.... AND you can actually get out to drive on roads that will demonstrate its advantages over a crossover. But if you can afford and park two cars :huh:
BMW's main objectives are volume and profit so it's going to be what it's going to be. I have been thinking about making a thread asking if shareholders are killing the spirits of auto manufacturers. It seems like car makers are under more pressure than ever to be lean and efficient... if you are not fortunate like Porsche then one off stuff like >4 cylinder stickshift sedans are gonna be a tough sell. Even GM had to fall back. Outside of the M3 and ATS-V, for now, I don't think there are any >4 cylinder stick sedans left
:lol:
I blame millenials. Shareholder interests simply chase the money wherever that might be. In the 80's/90's there was clearly unmet demand for sports sedans that BMW was able to exploit as a kind of "blue ocean" back then.
Today that demand has been drying up for various reasons. Part of it is preferences of millenials, part of it is those 80's/90's enthusiasts getting older. Case in point of the latter: yours truly.
As the family grows and my priorities shift I tend to think that a multi-car solution is much better. And the sports sedan, especially the more aggressive ones are left with no place in my future garage.
In that sense BMW is quite smart to offer all these kinds of sorta-sporty SUV variants. Because they are much more likely to keep customers like me in the fold that way. Witness: Our X5. It is the latest and most expensive BMW I have ever bought.
I'd rather have a Mini over a 2 series. Pretty sure a lot of other millennials would agree
Secondly the gap between mainstream cars and luxury cars has closed considerably. I don't know anyone who would and can afford dropping 45-50k for a car. Especially since a 20k Honda Civic is a lot nicer than it used to be.
Based on my visual observation, less people are also buying BMWs with a manual transmission in Europe.
When I go for my fitness walks around the city and walk past parked cars I like glancing through their window to see the type of transmission they have, particularly on BMWs.
Let's take the first-generation 1-Series E81,E82 and E87. The overwhelming majority of parked ones which I see have a stick. But, on the second-generation F20 and F21 1-Series' it's more of a 30-70% thing: 30% manuals and 70% automatics!
The same applies to the 3-Series. The E46 and E90,E91,E92 and E93 were overwhelmingly equipped with a manual transmission. Beginning with the F30 and F31, more and more of them are bought with automatics.
Again, based on visual observation.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on June 29, 2017, 11:57:40 AM
When I go for my fitness walks around the city....
Are you 65? I think even Dave goes for a run.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 29, 2017, 11:15:52 AM
M2 manual isn't dead. At least for the next couple of years until this generation runs out.
Dead man walking then. I'm sure it'll be replaced with an X2M, though, a four door coupe version of the X1.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 29, 2017, 11:21:10 AM
:lol:
I blame millenials. Shareholder interests simply chase the money wherever that might be. In the 80's/90's there was clearly unmet demand for sports sedans that BMW was able to exploit as a kind of "blue ocean" back then.
Today that demand has been drying up for various reasons. Part of it is preferences of millenials, part of it is those 80's/90's enthusiasts getting older. Case in point of the latter: yours truly.
As the family grows and my priorities shift I tend to think that a multi-car solution is much better. And the sports sedan, especially the more aggressive ones are left with no place in my future garage.
In that sense BMW is quite smart to offer all these kinds of sorta-sporty SUV variants. Because they are much more likely to keep customers like me in the fold that way. Witness: Our X5. It is the latest and most expensive BMW I have ever bought.
I would never prioritize my family over my car.
Quote from: 2o6 on June 29, 2017, 11:24:33 AM
I'd rather have a Mini over a 2 series. Pretty sure a lot of other millennials would agree
That's because they're stupid.
Honestly, most new cars handle/perform just as good as old sports cars. So why sacrifice the practicality?
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 28, 2017, 08:31:03 PM
People who fantasize about buying manual BMWs but end up buying more "rational" but inferior used automatic Japanese cars are unfortunately not BMW's product planners priorities.
As compared with people who actually buy new BMWs around the world that keep the brand setting sales records.
FTFY
Quote from: Rockraven on June 29, 2017, 12:33:38 PM
That's because they're stupid.
Who can afford a 2 series? It's less workable over a 3/4 series, and more expensive than a Mini. It's a nice car, but it wouldn't get my dollars. And judging from how only a S/O of one member here actually owns one, none of y'all would buy one anyways.
Quote from: 2o6 on June 29, 2017, 01:26:35 PM
Who can afford a 2 series? It's less workable over a 3/4 series, and more expensive than a Mini. It's a nice car, but it wouldn't get my dollars. And judging from how only a S/O of one member here actually owns one, none of y'all would buy one anyways.
I'm a actually hoping to buy a certified pre-owned M235i convertible.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 29, 2017, 11:21:10 AM
:lol:
I blame millenials. Shareholder interests simply chase the money wherever that might be. In the 80's/90's there was clearly unmet demand for sports sedans that BMW was able to exploit as a kind of "blue ocean" back then.
Today that demand has been drying up for various reasons. Part of it is preferences of millenials, part of it is those 80's/90's enthusiasts getting older. Case in point of the latter: yours truly.
As the family grows and my priorities shift I tend to think that a multi-car solution is much better. And the sports sedan, especially the more aggressive ones are left with no place in my future garage.
In that sense BMW is quite smart to offer all these kinds of sorta-sporty SUV variants. Because they are much more likely to keep customers like me in the fold that way. Witness: Our X5. It is the latest and most expensive BMW I have ever bought.
I think there is demand and interest; new cars just aren't filling it. Or providing the same value as they did before. But I mean there are millenials paying new car money for stuff from the 80s and 90s. Problem is there's not really a modern equivalent to something like an Integra Type R or Supra Turbo or even a Foxbody Mustang. As much shit as people give me and Ragz and the like I think the DIY culture of cars is huge now and a big driver of the enthusiasm. New cars are expensive to buy and then expensive and risky to modify.
The two vehicle thing is better IMO too, but nowadays it seems BMW only addresses one side (i.e. the X5). There's no BMW that could fulfill the duty of something like a Miata unless you're prepared to drop $50. But something like the 2002 would cost ~$25K in today's money and if done right could do OK.
Quote from: Rockraven on June 29, 2017, 01:52:13 PM
I'm a actually hoping to buy a certified pre-owned M235i convertible.
Pre-owned, tho.
I test drove a 2-series while car shopping. I liked the FWD-based S3 better after drive them back to back. Admittedly both were auto. Of course I ended up buying the manuel version of the S3 in the end. Maybe driving a manuel 2-series would have changed my mind but the dealership only had auto's on the lot (2-series and 3-series).
Quote from: 2o6 on June 29, 2017, 02:46:45 PM
Pre-owned, tho.
That's it right there. Most manual-loving enthusiasts want a USED Jalopnik special manual BMW. Difficult to see how BMW would care about that.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 29, 2017, 02:54:49 PM
I test drove a 2-series while car shopping. I liked the FWD-based S3 better after drive them back to back. Admittedly both were auto. Of course I ended up buying the manuel version of the S3 in the end. Maybe driving a manuel 2-series would have changed my mind but the dealership only had auto's on the lot (2-series and 3-series).
If you like understeer that's that.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 29, 2017, 02:55:05 PM
That's it right there. Most manual-loving enthusiasts want a USED Jalopnik special manual BMW. Difficult to see how BMW would care about that.
Its a bit chicken and the egg.
BMW dealership near me didn't carry manual transmission cars, so a person buying a new car and preferring a manual had no choice (unless I was willing to buy it without a test drive, which I am not). All that being said, see previous post: Apples to Apples (auto to auto) I preferred the S3 anyway (and essentially ended up with a manual version of that car after test driving it).
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 29, 2017, 02:55:57 PM
If you like understeer that's that.
Right, cause BMW's don't understeer. :nutty:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 29, 2017, 02:57:19 PM
Its a bit chicken and the egg.
BMW dealership near me didn't carry manual transmission cars, so a person buying a new car and preferring a manual had no choice (unless I was willing to buy it without a test drive, which I am not). All that being said, see previous post: Apples to Apples (auto to auto) I preferred the S3 anyway (and essentially ended up with a manual version of that car after test driving it).
¿Was it a 235i or a 228i?
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 29, 2017, 02:57:36 PM
Right, cause BMW's don't understeer. :nutty:
Steady state of course they do. But unlike the veedubs most of the time that can be fixed with a stab of the throttle.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 29, 2017, 02:59:33 PM
Steady state of course they do. But unlike the veedubs most of the time that can be fixed with a stab of the throttle.
I could do that in my S4 and can also do it in my Golf R to a lesser extent.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 29, 2017, 02:58:24 PM
¿Was it a 235i or a 228i?
I discussed it in detail in my purchase thread.
Then you get into leasing, pricing, etc. I'm shocked BMW offered this model as long as they did.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 29, 2017, 02:59:33 PM
Steady state of course they do. But unlike the veedubs most of the time that can be fixed with a stab of the throttle.
These cars are gonna be grocery getters. The average person who will buy one won't actually really drive it hard on a track.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on June 29, 2017, 12:35:27 PM
Honestly, most new cars handle/perform just as good as old sports cars. So why sacrifice the practicality?
They don't feel like old sports cars though.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 29, 2017, 02:57:36 PM
Right, cause BMW's don't understeer. :nutty:
At least they're not widowmakers like Infiniti Gs are....unsafe in any turn!
Quote from: Raza on June 29, 2017, 04:37:07 PM
At least they're not widowmakers like Infiniti Gs are....unsafe in any turn!
Thank god for that.
Quote from: 2o6 on June 29, 2017, 11:28:06 AM
Secondly the gap between mainstream cars and luxury cars has closed considerably. I don't know anyone who would and can afford dropping 45-50k for a car. Especially since a 20k Honda Civic is a lot nicer than it used to be.
Good point, to which I'd that lines between ALL vehicles - classes and types - has muddied considerably; performance SUVs, $40k Camaro SS > M4, upcoming Camry XSE V6, etc.
For the last ~15 years 90%+ buying of BMW (in the US at least) has been about the badge, and as stated, those folks don't care about the transmission or performance (or even luxury - put BMW badges on a loaded Accord V6 and most BMW buyers wouldn't notice - well, other than the infinitely improved reliability of course ;)).
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 29, 2017, 02:55:05 PM
That's it right there. Most manual-loving enthusiasts want a USED Jalopnik special manual BMW. Difficult to see how BMW would care about that.
I'm not a good example, because I'm not buying anything brand new anymore.
To the point here:
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1402528
BMW Worldwide Sales Up 5% So far This Year (+17% in Mexico, -4% US). So no, fantasizing about buying a manual used BMW on the cheap in a few years and bitching about it on the Internet probably won't affect my employer's product plans.
Read there is a pretty good chance the manual is getting dropped in the 3 series... So yea, there goes my plans of getting a new 3er if it didn't suck or reverting back to a 2 series as a backup plan
So the next 3er is apparently getting larger, if the 5er is any indication it could be getting softer, and it looks to be losing a manual... at this rate you might as well drop it and just sell the X3
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on July 12, 2017, 01:08:20 PM
To the point here:
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1402528
BMW Worldwide Sales Up 5% So far This Year (+17% in Mexico, -4% US). So no, fantasizing about buying a manual used BMW on the cheap in a few years and bitching about it on the Internet probably won't affect my employer's product plans.
When your employer put thousands of dollars on the hood of every car they sold and turned "The Ultimate Driving Machines" into "The Ultimate Toyotas In Drag" increased sales are a foregone conclusion. Is that the right strategy for business, sure. Company philosophy? That's up to the individual I guess. But you've stated many times that you're not a fan of what BMW was and are downright shippy:Trump WRT to what its become so........