There are dozens of controller chips scattered around inside vehicles from legacy makers, commodity single purpose items. There's little integration; it's not like manufacturers can easily recompile code for Chip B should Chip A become unavailable because of a pandemic. This would be possible if they were more general purpose chips performing many functions.
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When it comes to the electronic circuits that power our everyday lives, the automobile is simultaneously the world's most expensive consumer good and the one that runs on the cheapest possible semiconductor chips.
Moore's law of ever-increasing miniaturization seemingly never reached the automotive industry. Dozens of chips found in everything from electronic brake systems to airbag control units tend to rely on obsolete technology often well over a decade old. These employ comparatively simple transistors that can be anywhere from 45 nanometers to as much as 90 nanometers in size, far too large—and too primitive—to be suitable for today's smartphones.
More...
https://fortune.com/2021/09/17/chip-makers-carmakers-time-get-out-semiconductor-stone-age/ (https://fortune.com/2021/09/17/chip-makers-carmakers-time-get-out-semiconductor-stone-age/)
Problem with using general chips is they will need software.
That's a radical shift for manufacturers- to ask them to jump into a deep new pool....
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 18, 2021, 06:14:19 AM
Problem with using general chips is they will need software.
That's a radical shift for manufacturers- to ask them to jump into a deep new pool....
They're transitioning from milling cylinder blocks to programming & developing mobile Xboxes.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 18, 2021, 07:08:26 AM
They're transitioning from milling cylinder blocks to programming & developing mobile Xboxes.
Considering the #1 "trouble spot" for automotive reliability today is tied to software issues associated with infotainment systems, I'd say that's going swimmingly.
Don't get me started on the fact that it's impossible to evaluate software reliability in terms of MTBF before rolling it out.
Cars are durable goods. They are designed to be operable and serviceable for 15+ years. This means managing the production of spare parts to support vehicles that are 10+ years old. Electronics obsolescence becomes a real challenge on those time scales. Both hardware and software (older chips may not support latest software, security patches, etc). The typical smartphone isn't expected to last more than 5 years and when something breaks, they are often just thrown away.
Then there's production lifecycle differences. Most phones are only in production for maybe 3 years. Typical car is lucky to be getting its first mid-cycle refresh or face lift then.
I just don't understand the modern automotive architecture. I don't understand how we went from 1 ecu controlling the car to 30. Hell, I have a separate module in the Alfa just to control the seat slide... I mean wtf
Quote from: r0tor on September 18, 2021, 07:51:24 AM
I just don't understand the modern automotive architecture. I don't understand how we went from 1 ecu controlling the car to 30. Hell, I have a separate module in the Alfa just to control the seat slide... I mean wtf
Simple relay logic was replaced by control modules for things like power windows, power seats, etc.
it's always about what's "easiest" (in reality, cheapest).
Covid has shifted a lot of stuff up- apparently even more than we realize.
Quote from: r0tor on September 18, 2021, 07:51:24 AM
I just don't understand the modern automotive architecture. I don't understand how we went from 1 ecu controlling the car to 30. Hell, I have a separate module in the Alfa just to control the seat slide... I mean wtf
Its mostly because most of those parts are made by suppliers, and the manufacturers want a turn-key drop in solution that doesn't require a lot of processing from the BCM. Almost everything is its own node on the LIN network, which means everything has its own little program to run and report back. The only thing that's standardized is the communication.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 18, 2021, 09:13:45 AM
Its mostly because most of those parts are made by suppliers, and the manufacturers want a turn-key drop in solution that doesn't require a lot of processing from the BCM. Almost everything is its own node on the LIN network, which means everything has its own little program to run and report back. The only thing that's standardized is the communication.
Is there not a central processor that coordinates everything, or attempts to?
Quote from: FoMoJo on September 18, 2021, 09:32:40 AM
Is there not a central processor that coordinates everything, or attempts to?
There's some level of central coordination, but it's really a network of devices that communicate to one another.
Quote from: MX793 on September 18, 2021, 08:01:54 AM
Simple relay logic was replaced by control modules for things like power windows, power seats, etc.
That's exactly what happened IMO: expediency & corporate culture, when electronic control logic arrived one the scene, was to scatter modules everywhere they'd had relays. So lots of wires and connectors still needed to support all that. And all the associated failure points.
It's easier & cheaper to do that than to embark on a ground-up rethink.
Quote from: FoMoJo on September 18, 2021, 09:32:40 AM
Is there not a central processor that coordinates everything, or attempts to?
Yes.
Actually there's either two or three.
Generally, the ECM (sometimes called also the PCM) controls the running gear of the car; engine, transmission, brakes, suspension, etc. Then there's the BCM which is all about the interior; climate control, seats, windows, all that. On some cars the "active" portions; the emergency braking, lane assist, and other advanced systems have their own controller as well, but more and more those are being integrated into the ECM/PCM.
Each of these though controls a network of multiple devices; each of those essentially in itself a standalone computer.
For instance; I work with sunroofs. Sunroofs (and other windows, and things like seat sliders or automatic doors) have their own module. Its programmed with the various locations- the start/stop points, the anti-pinch routine, and the speed (which is programmed to remain constant regardless of voltage variations in the system). It can work on its own via an old fashioned switch; but it usually doesn't. Usually the BCM decided when to send the signal to open the sunroof, and the sunroof node obeys the command over the network.
Back in the day, you'd hit a switch, it would close a contact which powers a little electric motor directly, and the motor would move.
Now, you make an input, either on a touchscreen or a physical button (and in some newer cars, via an app on your smartphone). The Infotainment system relays that input to the BCM, and the BCM decides whether or not to send that signal to the sunroof node, which then executes the command (and eventually, a motor turns).
Modern cars have several network types all in the same vehicle. Sometimes, when a module fails, it can take down the whole thing. As in, if the ACM (radio) fails, the car may not run.
If the engine MAP sensor fails in a 3.5 Ecoboost 2019 Explorer, the other vehicle systems go crazy, transmission, ABS, instrument cluster. Car is undriveable. May only go about 5MPH. :lol:
The points and condenser in my old truck however, would survive an EMP burst attack. :ohyeah:
car electronics can be pretty wacky.
Ford often installed two stereo harnesses in the original taurus- one from head unit to premium speakers and amp in the rear, which connected back up to the regular speaker harness next to the head unit. Cheaper than just building a different harness for each option.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 18, 2021, 12:33:54 PM
car electronics can be pretty wacky.
Ford often installed two stereo harnesses in the original taurus- one from head unit to premium speakers and amp in the rear, which connected back up to the regular speaker harness next to the head unit. Cheaper than just building a different harness for each option.
My wagon did that too; made installing a new head unit confusing.
Integration is one of the hardest things to get right in software. Now my woes are manifesting in meatspace! :cry:
Quote from: r0tor on September 18, 2021, 07:51:24 AM
I just don't understand the modern automotive architecture. I don't understand how we went from 1 ecu controlling the car to 30. Hell, I have a separate module in the Alfa just to control the seat slide... I mean wtf
TL;DR - if you want a new model every 4-7 years that you can actually afford, this is how it has to, and is going to be done. This subject only changes with a wholesale rework of the industry, particularly market desire.
A modern vehicle is actually a subset of many products - engine, transmission, battery, HVAC, infotainment, lighting, windows, sunroof, ABS, etc., and each sub product needs some sort of "chip(s)" to control or interface to it. Each sub product has a life of its own, to be used across multiple models and often times for multiple generations, in order to produce vehicles that are affordable and have relatively quick revision cycles. A lone "ECU" to control the whole of the car would result in vehicles that are far too expensive and take far too much time to develop.
As to the subject of the article, the auto industry moves very slow, for all sorts of reasons; including the safety validation process as mentioned, and other things like supplier capabilities and the sheer complexity of manufacturing a modern vehicle to meet various market and regulatory demands.
I don't see how a BCM networked to a seat module is any cheaper than a BCM with a few more I/O points
Quote from: r0tor on September 18, 2021, 02:26:03 PM
I don't see how a BCM networked to a seat module is any cheaper than a BCM with a few more I/O points
Yes, we know.
As explained, if said "chip" is now controlling the seats and say the power windows, that design is inexorably linked - software, documentation, validation, manufacturing, assembly - which means it is that more difficult to use and evolve this tandem "sub product" for use in other vehicles.
Quote from: r0tor on September 18, 2021, 02:26:03 PM
I don't see how a BCM networked to a seat module is any cheaper than a BCM with a few more I/O points
It becomes a lot more I/O points very quickly, some of which are pulse modulated or analog or require PID feedback loops and then the wiring harness becomes a lot more complicated and heavier.
I mean, more standardization would be nice, but there are legitimate reasons why things are the way they are.
What's a PID feedback loop?
Quote from: Laconian on September 18, 2021, 04:24:48 PM
What's a PID feedback loop?
Proportional Integral Derivative.
Scales an output depending on how far away from a target value an input is (or more often the rate of change away from it). Cruise control uses it. That's how it knows to use X amount of throttle to maintain the same speed as you go up and down hills.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 18, 2021, 03:32:50 PM
It becomes a lot more I/O points very quickly, some of which are pulse modulated or analog or require PID feedback loops and then the wiring harness becomes a lot more complicated and heavier.
I mean, more standardization would be nice, but there are legitimate reasons why things are the way they are.
It worked in the 1990s
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 18, 2021, 04:30:06 PM
Proportional Integral Derivative.
Scales an output depending on how far away from a target value an input is (or more often the rate of change away from it). Cruise control uses it. That's how it knows to use X amount of throttle to maintain the same speed as you go up and down hills.
Is that fuzzy logic?
Quote from: r0tor on September 18, 2021, 04:36:04 PM
It worked in the 1990s
It did. There were also fewer electronics, and they did less with less reliability.
Now, I'm with you to a certain extent here; and think its a bit ridiculous when one needs to go to the dealership to have one's power headrest reprogrammed. But, regulatory and consumer requirements are driving these things and I don't see it changing soon.
Quote from: Laconian on September 18, 2021, 04:43:48 PM
Is that fuzzy logic?
Yes, basically.
Most real world fuzzy logic I know of is basically a PID with variable gain.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 18, 2021, 04:45:40 PM
It did. There were also fewer electronics, and they did less with less reliability.
Now, I'm with you to a certain extent here; and think its a bit ridiculous when one needs to go to the dealership to have one's power headrest reprogrammed. But, regulatory and consumer requirements are driving these things and I don't see it changing soon.
I suppose, soon enough, a car will see/identify you approaching and open the door. It will save a motion of your arm and finger.
Quote from: Laconian on September 18, 2021, 04:43:48 PM
Is that fuzzy logic?
Its math... You have a sum of something that's proportional to the error from setpoint, proportional to the rate of change of the error (derivative), and proportional to the time weighted integral or average error
(https://www.controleng.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/07/CTL1608_MAG_F1_LoopTuning_fig-1Slider.jpg)
My coffee brewer uses PID control: the closer the heater gets the water to the target temp, the more it backs off so it can nail the set temp & not overshoot.
Quote from: r0tor on September 18, 2021, 06:33:31 PM
Its math... You have a sum of something that's proportional to the error from setpoint, proportional to the rate of change of the error (derivative), and proportional to the time weighted integral or average error
(https://www.controleng.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/07/CTL1608_MAG_F1_LoopTuning_fig-1Slider.jpg)
What's T in this case? What's the size of the sampling window?
This company, 3IS, tears down & analyzes automotive electrical systems. They looked at the ID4, Model Y, & Mach E.
Talking on Munro's channel:
https://youtu.be/ZRkm6-bBk4U (https://youtu.be/ZRkm6-bBk4U)
Quote from: Laconian on September 18, 2021, 09:31:52 PM
What's T in this case? What's the size of the sampling window?
dT is the sampling window... Usually configurable by the controls engineer.
In that equation Ti and Td would be the integral and proportional scalars
Quote from: r0tor on September 19, 2021, 08:04:15 AM
dT is the sampling window... Usually configurable by the controls engineer.
In that equation Ti and Td would be the integral and proportional scalars
What about the proportional term (i.e., w/out dt)?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 19, 2021, 11:08:58 AM
What about the proportional term (i.e., w/out dt)?
I thought that was pretty self explanatory from the equation...
Quote from: r0tor on September 19, 2021, 06:18:36 PM
I thought that was pretty self explanatory from the equation...
Doesn't appear that way to me.
The automakers' reluctance to move on to up-to-date designs & is highly emblematic of underlying weakness. They want to stick with old technology, continuity, the things they know, the path of least resistance.
Some of these corporations are coming to the end of their natural life cycles.
The railroads were at their most advanced, impressive and glorious in the 1930s. Nobody knew it, but they had already begun to die.
Seems like Tesla took a different direction with the model 3 and have most of all the body control stuff coming out of only 3 modules
https://jalopnik.com/how-tesla-made-the-model-3-better-than-the-model-s-1828052113
Quote from: r0tor on September 21, 2021, 09:53:14 AM
Seems like Tesla took a different direction with the model 3 and have most of all the body control stuff coming out of only 3 modules
https://jalopnik.com/how-tesla-made-the-model-3-better-than-the-model-s-1828052113
Yup, trading hardware headaches for software headaches. And as stuff gets tied into the interwebz, look for more hackz
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 21, 2021, 09:37:07 AM
The automakers' reluctance to move on to up-to-date designs & is highly emblematic of underlying weakness. They want to stick with old technology, continuity, the things they know, the path of least resistance.
Some of these corporations are coming to the end of their natural life cycles.
The railroads were at their most advanced, impressive and glorious in the 1930s. Nobody knew it, but they had already begun to die.
:confused:
There's a validation cost and time associated with changing architectures like this. Besides more capacity flexibility at the supplier, I'm not sure what benefit you're really missing out on.
You seem to think less is better, and by not going to the latest tech, they're dinosaurs. But as an end customer, who cares what the underlying architecture for your seat controls? Does the seat work reliably for a long time? Ok, perfect.
I agree, some of what Tesla does pushes the industry in certain ways, but it's not always a good thing. Tesla's lack of validation protocols gets you more simple chip architecture. It also gets you snapping control arms, fires, melting infotainment screens, etc. As always: Tesla's competitive advantage isn't technology itself, it's risk tolerance.
Quote from: MrH on September 22, 2021, 07:03:17 AM
:confused:
There's a validation cost and time associated with changing architectures like this. Besides more capacity flexibility at the supplier, I'm not sure what benefit you're really missing out on.
You seem to think less is better, and by not going to the latest tech, they're dinosaurs. But as an end customer, who cares what the underlying architecture for your seat controls? Does the seat work reliably for a long time? Ok, perfect.
I agree, some of what Tesla does pushes the industry in certain ways, but it's not always a good thing. Tesla's lack of validation protocols gets you more simple chip architecture. It also gets you snapping control arms, fires, melting infotainment screens, etc. As always: Tesla's competitive advantage isn't technology itself, it's risk tolerance.
The problem is currently you have tons of production on hold for what in many cases is a simple module who's function could easily be handled by the BCM.... and then future support for all these modules (most of which are VIN locked) to keep cars on the road.
You act as if they would be immune to chip shortages right now if they were on a newer architecture. That isn't true. The service comment is a non-issue. They aren't wear parts and don't need replacing because they went through proper validation :thumbsup:
Quote from: MrH on September 22, 2021, 08:39:56 AM
You act as if they would be immune to chip shortages right now if they were on a newer architecture. That isn't true. The service comment is a non-issue. They aren't wear parts and don't need replacing because they went through proper validation :thumbsup:
Modules don't fail? Really?
Quote from: r0tor on September 22, 2021, 09:38:02 AM
Modules don't fail? Really?
Lower failure rate than Tesla's eMMC issue :huh:
Quote from: MrH on September 22, 2021, 10:22:02 AM
Lower failure rate than Tesla's eMMC issue :huh:
Funny
Margins on cars you can build quickly, cheaply, and deliver to customers in exchange for cash... are higher than those on complex assemblies that sit incomplete and unsold on back lots. Having to stop production is a competitive disadvantage.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 22, 2021, 10:37:22 AM
Margins on cars you can build quickly, cheaply, and deliver to customers in exchange for cash... are higher than those on complex assemblies that sit incomplete and unsold on back lots. Having to stop production is a competitive disadvantage.
Are you telling me your gut instincts in cost reduction is more accurate than the OEMs with hundreds of cost engineers evaluating the same thing?
Quote from: MrH on September 22, 2021, 12:08:17 PM
Are you telling me your gut instincts in cost reduction is more accurate than the OEMs with hundreds of cost engineers evaluating the same thing?
CarSPIN: Yes!
Quote from: MrH on September 22, 2021, 12:08:17 PM
Are you telling me your gut instincts in cost reduction is more accurate than the OEMs with hundreds of cost engineers evaluating the same thing?
The OEMs have cost-engineered themselves into production halts. They don't think.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 22, 2021, 03:12:07 PM
The OEMs have cost-engineered themselves into production halts. They don't think.
Production halts right now are effecting multiple industries. You can't get fucking Lunchables or lemonade half the time. Is it any wonder that a complicated item like an automobile has trouble?
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 22, 2021, 03:12:07 PM
The OEMs have cost-engineered themselves into production halts. They don't think.
The circumstances of today are highly abnormal. Under what we formerly understood as "normal", how the automotive industry operated was the most cost effective way to do things. No one would have foreseen global shortages of this nature.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 22, 2021, 03:12:07 PM
The OEMs have cost-engineered themselves into production halts. They don't think.
It takes 4000+ parts to make a car. It's amazing they get any car made ever.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 22, 2021, 03:24:55 PM
Production halts right now are effecting multiple industries. You can't get fucking Lunchables or lemonade half the time. Is it any wonder that a complicated item like an automobile has trouble?
:lol:
It's probably the most complicated assembly out there. Auto supply chain demolishes most industries in terms of cost efficiency and effectiveness.
Be nice if we hadn't offshored everything to make a damned addition 10 cents in profits. Ahh, well. Trump tried I guess.
I buy truckloads of plastic bottles, among other things. Plastic industry is all around the gulf and I get an email every 6 weeks with some excuse for raising prices due to the Texas winter storm, hurricane, blahblahblah. Domestic industry has plenty of their own problems and delays. The plastic industry needs to move away from the damn gulf
Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 22, 2021, 08:41:00 PM
I buy truckloads of plastic bottles, among other things. Plastic industry is all around the gulf and I get an email every 6 weeks with some excuse for raising prices due to the Texas winter storm, hurricane, blahblahblah. Domestic industry has plenty of their own problems and delays. The plastic industry needs to move away from the damn gulf
That's where the oil is. All petroleum based things are struggling. Been a big shortage in polyurethane foams too.
We've been having a lot of pharma material shortages too. Capacity and validation of secondary suppliers is insanely expensive and timely. It's so hard to capacity plan raw materials. Part of it is because they all suck at supply chain :lol:
Quote from: MrH on September 23, 2021, 08:20:29 AM
That's where the oil is.
(https://i.imgur.com/BsEuJnH.jpg)
It's a shame Biden got confused you shutdown the wrong pipeline.