What cars do you think are truly overrated, or are so overblown you don't even like them?
(http://www.chathamjournal.com/weekly/moxiepix/a4552.jpg)
Journalists overlook the crap fuel economy, cheap interior and slow performance because it "drives well" and they continue to hand it the driving victory over cars like the Fiesta, 2 and Sonic.
I've driven one. It's not all that special. Doesn't feel all that much sharper than my car to drive.
All silver cars.
(http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2009-saab-9-3_100300695_m.jpg)
When examined in context, it's simply not a good car.
(http://motoburg.com/images/nissan-skyline-r34-gt-06.jpg)
And my beef goes on.
There are other cars out there that are fast. Not only that, but the guys who get them don't seem to actually do anything to them, but turn up the boost and put them on the dynamometer.
Basically anything over about $75,000.
I just don't see that there's anything I want available on any car anywhere that I can't get for less than that.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 06, 2012, 10:18:32 PM
Basically anything over about $75,000.
I just don't see that there's anything I want available on any car anywhere that I can't get for less than that.
I could take a zero off that. $7500 will buy a whole pile of used fun, or practicality. Spending more is just showing off.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 06, 2012, 10:18:32 PM
Basically anything over about $75,000.
I just don't see that there's anything I want available on any car anywhere that I can't get for less than that.
No way. Ferrari GT cars are basically the best thing ever, and you can't get that for cheap!
Though diminishing returns does sort of make them seem a bit overpriced, which I guess is like overrated..
Quote from: Rupert on May 06, 2012, 10:30:54 PM
No way. Ferrari GT cars are basically the best thing ever, and you can't get that for cheap!
Though diminishing returns does sort of make them seem a bit overpriced, which I guess is like overrated..
You can get a lot of very lightly used Ferraris for under $75K: as well as new Corvettes and all kinds of other crazy fast machines.
I think two of today's most overrated vehicles are from South Korea.
Hyundai Genesis sedan
It's got a big bad V8, but so what. It's boring. It has no sporting intentions whatsoever.
Kia Optima
No argument on the looks. It's a sexy thang that's for sure. But the driving experience is severely lacking in certain aspects. It's not nearly the sporting machine Kia's ads would have you believe or that the styling would suggest.
Miata.
Anything Bentley.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 06, 2012, 10:02:38 PM
What cars do you think are truly overrated, or are so overblown you don't even like them?
The Toyota line, including big brother Lexus.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 06, 2012, 10:10:53 PM
Journalists overlook the crap fuel economy, cheap interior and slow performance because it "drives well" and they continue to hand it the driving victory over cars like the Fiesta, 2 and Sonic.
I've driven one. It's not all that special. Doesn't feel all that much sharper than my car to drive.
It's not great because it drives well. It's great because it's so incredibly useful.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 07, 2012, 12:20:32 AM
I think two of today's most overrated vehicles are from South Korea.
Hyundai Genesis sedan
It's got a big bad V8, but so what. It's boring. It has no sporting intentions whatsoever.
Kia Optima
No argument on the looks. It's a sexy thang that's for sure. But the driving experience is severely lacking in certain aspects. It's not nearly the sporting machine Kia's ads would have you believe or that the styling would suggest.
I don't think not being sporty counts as automatically being overrated. It's not like these cars get great reviews for being sports sedans.
Hyundai Sonata. I don't get it. Lots of horsepower, but not that fast, and ugly as all hell.
Quote from: Raza on May 07, 2012, 07:17:32 AM
Hyundai Sonata. I don't get it. Lots of horsepower, but not that fast, and ugly as all hell.
Lots? IDK about that. I agree though that Hyundai/Kia need help with their dynamics + details. The Elantra/Sonata are competent and well styled, but they need the exciting driving experience to really seal the deal.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on May 07, 2012, 08:01:30 AM
Lots? IDK about that. I agree though that Hyundai/Kia need help with their dynamics + details. The Elantra/Sonata are competent and well styled, but they need the exciting driving experience to really seal the deal.
274 horsepower is a lot. It's especially a lot when Motor Trend gets it to 60 in 7 seconds, lagging far behind cars with a lot less power.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 07, 2012, 12:20:32 AM
I think two of today's most overrated vehicles are from South Korea.
Hyundai Genesis sedan
It's got a big bad V8, but so what. It's boring. It has no sporting intentions whatsoever.
Kia Optima
No argument on the looks. It's a sexy thang that's for sure. But the driving experience is severely lacking in certain aspects. It's not nearly the sporting machine Kia's ads would have you believe or that the styling would suggest.
If anything, these cars are underrated because of their badges.
All recent Saabs except maybe the Viggen.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 07, 2012, 10:05:50 AM
If anything, these cars are underrated because of their badges.
+1
My list is seriously too long to list.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27377.msg1715770#msg1715770 date=1336399782
274 horsepower is a lot. It's especially a lot when Motor Trend gets it to 60 in 7 seconds, lagging far behind cars with a lot less power.
IIRC, the gearing is the reason.
You can't honestly answer this question unless you have driven the car in question....... otherwise how can you possibly know? there are far too many armchair experts who either replay what they've read that someone else wrote, or applying their own prejudices to what other people write.
More to the point, the MT number is the outlier for the Sonata's performance. Even Consumer Reports, whose numbers are almost always among the slowest, got 6.6 seconds with both its Sonata and Optima.
Quote from: ifcar on May 07, 2012, 01:38:21 PM
More to the point, the MT number is the outlier for the Sonata's performance. Even Consumer Reports, whose numbers are almost always among the slowest, got 6.6 seconds with both its Sonata and Optima.
Still kind of slow for that much power and weight. And for full disclosure, I checked two comparison tests at Car and Driver, and neither listed the 0-60 time online (only said it relative to the others in the test). Motor Trend was just the first I could find.
Quote from: Colin on May 07, 2012, 01:18:59 PM
You can't honestly answer this question unless you have driven the car in question....... otherwise how can you possibly know? there are far too many armchair experts who either replay what they've read that someone else wrote, or applying their own prejudices to what other people write.
:clap:
Quote from: Colin on May 07, 2012, 01:18:59 PM
You can't honestly answer this question unless you have driven the car in question....... otherwise how can you possibly know? there are far too many armchair experts who either replay what they've read that someone else wrote, or applying their own prejudices to what other people write.
I suppose that's true.
Quote from: Laconian on May 07, 2012, 10:11:46 AM
All recent Saabs except maybe the Viggen.
The Viggen is severely underrated.
Drove a Camaro SS, very overrated. Drove a Challenger R/T, very underrated.
Cadillac CTS
Quote from: SVT666 on May 07, 2012, 02:48:26 PM
Cadillac CTS
You proclaimed it one of the greats after you first test drove...just like every car you test drive :lol:
Quote from: MrH on May 07, 2012, 03:07:22 PM
You proclaimed it one of the greats after you first test drove...just like every car you test drive :lol:
It's a really good car, and I like it a lot. But when you drive it back to back with it's competitors like I did this weekend, it falls short by quite a bit. The interior being it's biggest weakness. It's cheap and the center console squeaks and groans in corners, and the seats offer next to no lateral support. It's definitely a step down, and it did not deserve to be on C&D's 10 Best Cars list.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 07, 2012, 12:20:32 AM
I think two of today's most overrated vehicles are from South Korea.
Hyundai Genesis sedan
It's got a big bad V8, but so what. It's boring. It has no sporting intentions whatsoever.
If it's not supposed to be a sporting car, how does that make it over-rated?
Quote from: MX793 on May 07, 2012, 03:27:16 PM
If it's not supposed to be a sporting car, how does that make it over-rated?
I guess maybe the problem is that it's competition has sporting attributes. Cars like the 5 series, Infiniti M, E Class , Caddy CTS.
I don't have my own overrated pick yet. This is a tough question for me.
Quote from: Northlands on May 07, 2012, 03:41:48 PM
I guess maybe the problem is that it's competition has sporting attributes. Cars like the 5 series, Infiniti M, E Class , Caddy CTS.
I don't have my own overrated pick yet. This is a tough question for me.
But it isn't really aimed at those (other than in price). Those are all midsize (well, the Infiniti may be full-size) while the Genesis is full-size. The Genesis is really more of a poor-man's Lexus LS or S class.
Quote from: MX793 on May 07, 2012, 03:45:47 PM
But it isn't really aimed at those (other than in price). Those are all midsize (well, the Infiniti may be full-size) while the Genesis is full-size. The Genesis is really more of a poor-man's Lexus LS or S class.
The Equus is aimed at those cars.
Quote from: MX793 on May 07, 2012, 03:27:16 PM
If it's not supposed to be a sporting car, how does that make it over-rated?
It's overrated in enthusiast circles. Anytime anyone says they want a big V8 powered sport sedan, people jump on the Genesis bandwagon. I've had it happen to me on this site. It's not a sport sedan in any way.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 07, 2012, 03:50:39 PM
It's overrated in enthusiast circles. Anytime anyone says they want a big V8 powered sport sedan, people jump on the Genesis bandwagon. I've had it happen to me on this site. It's not a sport sedan in any way.
:huh:
Quote from: Colin on May 07, 2012, 01:18:59 PM
You can't honestly answer this question unless you have driven the car in question....... otherwise how can you possibly know? there are far too many armchair experts who either replay what they've read that someone else wrote, or applying their own prejudices to what other people write.
I'm not vouching for the performance of the Turbo model (I have driven the 2.4L NA, and I honestly don't understand the performance complaints at all....) but from what I have read, I remember many people (including Hyundai, IIRC) saying gearing was among the reasons that the cars don't turn the same numbers as the competition.
I think the Sonata/Optima is a great car.
Of the same token, I can chalk one up to the Sonata and Optima being slightly overrated. After driving one (Optima), although it does everything well, there are other competitors that do things better. It's not that sporty, and not that quiet.
(http://www.lotpro.com/Themes/Default/cars/8939.jpg)
Especially in 2.5L guise.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 07, 2012, 07:52:47 PM
I think the Sonata/Optima is a great car.
So do we.
(https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/545717_10150740552665756_730385755_9826238_289534526_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/562640_10150740553210756_730385755_9826240_1592450067_n.jpg)
The Optima's looks are the best in the segment IMO. I don't think that they are overrated.
Sonata, a wee bit too fussy with the creases...
I love the rear 3/4 look of my dad's car in person. It all just works.
Quote from: Laconian on May 07, 2012, 08:43:34 PM
The Optima's looks are the best in the segment IMO. I don't think that they are overrated.
Sonata, a wee bit too fussy with the creases...
I love the Optima's styling.
I don't really like the Sonata, but I know people who think the opposite of me, so good for Hyundai.
Quote from: CJ on May 07, 2012, 08:44:39 PM
I love the rear 3/4 look of my dad's car in person. It all just works.
+1
No offense intended, but I think the Sonata is hideous. From the horrible grille to the stubby and abrupt rear end, including everything in between, it's just terrible. Not a single thing attractive about it.
Quote from: Raza on May 07, 2012, 08:52:58 PM
No offense intended, but I think the Sonata is hideous. From the horrible grille to the stubby and abrupt rear end, including everything in between, it's just terrible. Not a single thing attractive about it.
None taken.
I am offended. That is like Accent's fat little brother.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 07, 2012, 09:39:00 PM
I am offended. That is like Accent's fat little brother.
More like Accent is Sonata's fat little brother?
Quote from: Vinsanity on May 07, 2012, 09:45:00 PM
More like Accent is Sonata's fat little brother?
Accent is older than Sonoata :rolleyes:
God, I could list so many cars both current and past. But to me Overrated doesn't always = bad. It's just that I don't think a car is as great as so many other people think it is.
I could say the 911, MX-5 and Mustang are overrated. Not bad but overrated.
The only ones that come to mind that are both overrated and suck at the same time are the Mustangs and Camaro's of the 80's and 90's. Total junk cars.
Any old Honda.
I can second the 911. Actually any modern Porsche, save the Boxster and Cayman.
I've read in multiple articles that the steering in the 911 and Boxster is less inspiring and worse than before to save a fraction of a gallon in fuel mileage.
2 things:
1) Fuck Europe
2) Good job?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 06, 2012, 10:24:41 PM
I could take a zero off that. $7500 will buy a whole pile of used fun, or practicality. Spending more is just showing off.
Now you're dissin on my cars. :rage:
I like cars. I don't like or dislike any car due to where it came from, how much it cost, or who else likes/dislikes it. Hype means nothing to me, and if I like a car that is "overhyped" so be it. So for me, there are no overhyped or overblown cars.
Of course not.
Hard to qualify "overrated." Cars that sell well but suck? Cars that militant enthusiasts hate? For me, it's simply cars I see on the road and think, Wow, there are better cars to buy than that:
1. CTS - expensive, last-in-class performance (the 2nd gen does look nice though).
2. Ford Super Duty and Dodge Ram (diesel variants) - Chevy Silverado HD has been the better truck for some time and otherwise isn't a ridiculous caricature.
3. C-class - simply a cheaper less capable MB; a poser for people who can't afford the E-class.
The E class is for poseurs who can't afford an S class, the S class is for poseurs who can't afford a Rolls Royce, Rolls Royces are for poseurs who can't afford to be flown in chauffeured helicopters, and chauffeured helicopters are for poseurs who can't afford their own teleportation devices.
(http://www.carmanualstore.com/images/P/SUBARU%20LEGACY%20OUTBACK%202002%20SERVICE%20REPAIR%20MANUAL.jpg)
(That generation, specifically)
It's just as dull as all the rest of the other Midsized sedans. And if you don't really need AWD, I find the whole vehicle to be pointless.
There are quite a few owners in CO, the PNW, and New England who would completely disagree.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 08, 2012, 01:18:28 PM
(http://www.carmanualstore.com/images/P/SUBARU%20LEGACY%20OUTBACK%202002%20SERVICE%20REPAIR%20MANUAL.jpg)
(That generation, specifically)
It's just as dull as all the rest of the other Midsized sedans. And if you don't really need AWD, I find the whole vehicle to be pointless.
Dude that is the whole point of the car....
Which mid sizers were available in wagon form then? And they get really fun when the roads are slick, especially in automatic guise.
Looks like I struck a nerve.
It's a good vehicle, yes, but it's not the pinnicle of driving involvement; the inputs are just as dull as other cars, the boxer four only makes adequate power (can't say for the six-cylinder) and although I know many people like AWD, if you don't really need it, there are so much more fun to drive cars out there.
Now the model after it, I would take any day, any time.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 08, 2012, 04:30:34 PM
Looks like I struck a nerve.
It's a good vehicle, yes, but it's not the pinnicle of driving involvement; the inputs are just as dull as other cars, the boxer four only makes adequate power (can't say for the six-cylinder) and although I know many people like AWD, if you don't really need it, there are so much more fun to drive cars out there.
Now the model after it, I would take any day, any time.
Who the hell ever called an Outback anything close to "the pinnacle of driving involvement"? WTF are you talking about?
He's trying to be a LOLtroll like Cougs.
The pinnacle of driving involvement is a mid 90s Impreza.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 08, 2012, 01:18:28 PM
(http://www.carmanualstore.com/images/P/SUBARU%20LEGACY%20OUTBACK%202002%20SERVICE%20REPAIR%20MANUAL.jpg)
(That generation, specifically)
It's just as dull as all the rest of the other Midsized sedans. And if you don't really need AWD, I find the whole vehicle to be pointless.
I'm going agree.
Not a terrible car but despite the wheels, two-tone paint, and sometimes leather and moonroof, it was basically a econo car, and a very expensive one at that. To all this we can add the ever-present head problems.
The generation that followed made a moderate leap but still retained a bit of that econo car feel. The current generation however made a HUGE leap such that I doubt anyone could materially criticize it let alone call it overrated.
Accord... Seriously? It's not magical...
Quote from: Secret Chimp on May 08, 2012, 05:58:08 PM
Who the hell ever called an Outback anything close to "the pinnacle of driving involvement"? WTF are you talking about?
Jake did once say that a 93 Impreza wagon was the best handling car ever. :huh:
Quote from: Raza on May 08, 2012, 06:29:54 PM
Jake did once say that a 93 Impreza wagon was the best handling car ever. :huh:
If you're driving in a foot of snow, it probably is.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 08, 2012, 06:36:18 PM
If you're driving in a foot of snow, it probably is.
Yes, Subarus are really point and shoot easy in shitty conditions. I have friends that go through 4x4s and AWDs like crazy (they do a lot of winter photography and stay in cabins in the mountains etc), and their latest Outback has blown their minds.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 08, 2012, 12:43:34 PM
Hard to qualify "overrated." Cars that sell well but suck? Cars that militant enthusiasts hate? For me, it's simply cars I see on the road and think, Wow, there are better cars to buy than that:
2. Ford Super Duty and Dodge Ram (diesel variants)
I agree. Every time I work on a Diesel Ford SD I just think "what junk."
Quote from: Onslaught on May 08, 2012, 07:16:40 PM
I agree. Every time I work on a Diesel Ford SD I just think "what junk."
What's junky about them?
There are a lot of douches that love their jacked-up SDs.
Quote from: Laconian on May 08, 2012, 07:19:27 PM
What's junky about them?
There are a lot of douches that love their jacked-up SDs.
They stink. The sound like your riding in a train engine. And you have to give it so much gas just to get it up the hill in the parking lot.
It makes lots of noise! Real man's truck!
Quote from: S204STi on May 08, 2012, 06:00:24 PM
He's trying to be a LOLtroll like Cougs.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on May 08, 2012, 05:58:08 PM
Who the hell ever called an Outback anything close to "the pinnacle of driving involvement"? WTF are you talking about?
I'm not trolling, but there are a lot of guys out there that call the Outback one of the most fun-to-drive vehicles out there for the class.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 08, 2012, 06:22:22 PM
I'm going agree.
Not a terrible car but despite the wheels, two-tone paint, and sometimes leather and moonroof, it was basically a econo car, and a very expensive one at that. To all this we can add the ever-present head problems.
The generation that followed made a moderate leap but still retained a bit of that econo car feel. The current generation however made a HUGE leap such that I doubt anyone could materially criticize it let alone call it overrated.
See! I thought the same thing. Inside and out, I felt it wasn't quite as good as other cars in the class (Camry and Accord, namely). It still is a good car, though.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 08, 2012, 08:17:18 PM
I'm not trolling, but there are a lot of guys out there that call the Outback one of the most fun-to-drive vehicles out there for the class.
You keep going on forums populated by the dumbest people known to man, i.e. the "lot of guys" you refer to all the time that none of us come within 1000 miles of associating with.
Most of the best selling names out there are truly overrated.
Camry, Civic, Accord, Altima, Corolla, etc. Every last one is a prime example of middle-of-the-road mediocrity.
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 09:11:15 AM
Most of the best selling names out there are truly overrated.
Camry, Civic, Accord, Altima, Corolla, etc. Every last one is a prime example of middle-of-the-road mediocrity.
:facepalm:
Quote from: 2o6 on May 08, 2012, 01:18:28 PM
(http://www.carmanualstore.com/images/P/SUBARU%20LEGACY%20OUTBACK%202002%20SERVICE%20REPAIR%20MANUAL.jpg)
(That generation, specifically)
It's just as dull as all the rest of the other Midsized sedans. And if you don't really need AWD, I find the whole vehicle to be pointless.
It is a fairly dull car, but I also don't think anyone pretends otherwise.
The unique thing about it was that it was an affordable midsize wagon. Those have been a rarity for a long time.
Quote from: Northlands on May 09, 2012, 02:16:36 PM
:facepalm:
Am I to understand that you disagree? If so, then please tell me what is so friggin' wonderful about any of these personal mobility appliances. The way I see it, these cars are the mechanical equivalent of Top-40 radio; bland mindless pablum for the ignorant masses too lazy to seek out anything better. They are cynically developed to pander to the lowest common denominator who easily fall victim to the herd mentality. Sneer all you like but I adamantly refuse to become one of the mindless sheep who feels the need to cave in to peer pressure and brainless conformity.
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 04:10:17 PM
Am I to understand that you disagree? If so, then please tell me what is so friggin' wonderful about any of these personal mobility appliances. The way I see it, these cars are the mechanical equivalent of Top-40 radio; bland mindless pablum for the ignorant masses too lazy to seek out anything better. They are cynically developed to pander to the lowest common denominator who easily fall victim to the herd mentality. Sneer all you like but I adamantly refuse to become one of the mindless sheep who feels the need to cave in to peer pressure and brainless conformity.
I bet you're using a computer with Windows. Why not Linux? It's way more fun. Unthusiast!
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 04:10:17 PM
Am I to understand that you disagree? If so, then please tell me what is so friggin' wonderful about any of these personal mobility appliances. The way I see it, these cars are the mechanical equivalent of Top-40 radio; bland mindless pablum for the ignorant masses too lazy to seek out anything better. They are cynically developed to pander to the lowest common denominator who easily fall victim to the herd mentality. Sneer all you like but I adamantly refuse to become one of the mindless sheep who feels the need to cave in to peer pressure and brainless conformity.
Or, to put it in a simpler, less pretentious way, some people just want a car. A Camry honestly isn't a bad choice. It's not like there are competitors out there that will give you a BJ when you're stuck in traffic or anything, so there's really not much that average Joe is missing out on when he drives off the lot in his Camry.
I think Japanese brand full size trucks are/were overrated. When they first came out, everybody thought they would take over the market. Instead, they just sucked. It's because the Japanese don't know anything about American pickups and what sells them. Plus, the only engines they had that were big enough were complicated, high revving transplants from their "luxury" models. They sucked as truck engines.
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 04:10:17 PM
Am I to understand that you disagree? If so, then please tell me what is so friggin' wonderful about any of these personal mobility appliances. The way I see it, these cars are the mechanical equivalent of Top-40 radio; bland mindless pablum for the ignorant masses too lazy to seek out anything better. They are cynically developed to pander to the lowest common denominator who easily fall victim to the herd mentality. Sneer all you like but I adamantly refuse to become one of the mindless sheep who feels the need to cave in to peer pressure and brainless conformity.
You have a really high opinion of yourself don't you?
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 09:11:15 AM
Most of the best selling names out there are truly overrated.
Camry, Civic, Accord, Altima, Corolla, etc. Every last one is a prime example of middle-of-the-road mediocrity.
Exactly! They can't even touch the Catera, truly an enthusiast dream vehicles. Rarity, prestige, and uniqueness simply ooze out of it.
I don't understand why he oozes over the Catera....it was a flop because it sucked.
Quote from: MrH on May 09, 2012, 05:03:41 PM
Exactly! They can't even touch the Catera, truly an enthusiast dream vehicles. Rarity, prestige, and uniqueness simply ooze out of it.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 09, 2012, 05:04:54 PM
I don't understand why he oozes over the Catera....it was a flop because it sucked.
I have NEVER said the Catera was the greatest car in the world. Nevertheless, it still has more character in one lugnut than an entire fleet of CamCords.
And, as I've pointed out many times before, the Catera was never meant to be a high-volume model. It was intended to be a test bed for a smaller and sportier Cadillac. The fact that Cadillac used the Catera as a template when developing the CTS proves the Catera succeeded in it's mission.
If you like the CTS and upcoming ATS then you can thank the Catera for paving the way. Without the Catera, Cadillac would still be building hopeless wallowing front-drive geezer barges for the Geritol-addicted AARP crowd!
The Catera was an Opel Omega with a Cadillac badge.
The Camry and kin do things very well. There is a reason why they're so successful.
Quote from: shp4man on May 09, 2012, 04:34:07 PM
I think Japanese brand full size trucks are/were overrated. When they first came out, everybody thought they would take over the market. Instead, they just sucked. It's because the Japanese don't know anything about American pickups and what sells them. Plus, the only engines they had that were big enough were complicated, high revving transplants from their "luxury" models. They sucked as truck engines.
Toyota got it with the Tundra.
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 05:15:59 PM
If you like the CTS and upcoming ATS then you can thank the Catera for paving the way. Without the Catera Lincoln LS, Cadillac would still be building hopeless wallowing front-drive geezer barges for the Geritol-addicted AARP crowd!
I believe this to be more likely. If the decision to develop the CTS rested on the success and/or quality of the Catera, then the CTS would either not have existed, or have turned out to be a steaming pile of junk. And we all know the latter is definitely not the case :lol:
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on May 09, 2012, 05:21:44 PM
Toyota got it with the Tundra.
Not really....sales of that model aren't near as good as the domestic competition, and it's still regarded as inferior to the domestic trucks.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 09, 2012, 05:18:23 PM
The Catera was an Opel Omega with a Cadillac badge.
So what? Lexus is a rebadged Toyota. Infiniti is a rebadged Nissan. Acura is a rebadged Honda.
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 05:15:59 PM
I have NEVER said the Catera was the greatest car in the world. Nevertheless, it still has more character in one lugnut than an entire fleet of CamCords.
Also, some people have better things to worry about than how much "character" their car has. Especially people shopping the Camcord segment.
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 05:24:58 PM
So what? Lexus is a rebadged Toyota. Infiniti is a rebadged Nissan. Acura is a rebadged Honda.
For starters, those final three are WRONG (especially when you keep insisting the LS is a rebadged Celsior; it isn't)
Secondly, the models they sold were uplevel models from their everyday makes, capable of competing with German luxury.
Thirdly, the Catera came from the Omega, a large sedan no more special than the Camry.
Quote from: Vinsanity on May 09, 2012, 05:22:42 PM
I believe this to be more likely. If the decision to develop the CTS rested on the success and/or quality of the Catera, then the CTS would either not have existed, or have turned out to be a steaming pile of junk. And we all know the latter is definitely not the case :lol:
You do realise that your CTS would have also been called Catera had Cadillac not decided to switch to three-letter model designations, right? I'm sure you are also aware CTS originally stood for "Catera Touring Sedan"?
Quote from: 2o6 on May 09, 2012, 05:28:14 PM
For starters, those final three are WRONG (especially when you keep insisting the LS is a rebadged Celsior; it isn't)
Secondly, the models they sold were uplevel models from their everyday makes, capable of competing with German luxury.
Thirdly, the Catera came from the Omega, a large sedan no more special than the Camry.
:nutty:
How the hell is a Toyota Celsior, Aristo or Altezza any more "upscale" than an Opel Omega?
Because they were meant to be luxury vehicles.
The Chaser was below the Aristo, the highest RWD sedan of that size.
The Altezza was a sportier alternative to the Aristo and Chaser.
The Celsior was the Lexus LS first, then was soon imported back into Japan at the very top of Toyota's marque.
The Omega was a large sedan with RWD, no more special than the Vectra. It was just bigger.
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 05:31:35 PM
:nutty:
How the hell is a Toyota Celsior, Aristo or Altezza any more "upscale" than an Opel Omega?
BECAUSE IT FUCKING IS. They're built to a higher standard, have better interiors, and are, without a doubt, quieter on the inside. Besides, Toyota no longer HAS an Altezza, Aristo, or Celsior, with the introduction of Lexus into the Japanese market place.
The Tundra in no way sucks. I'm not a fan of the current one but the first one is a great truck. Much better then the domestics.
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 04:10:17 PM
Am I to understand that you disagree? If so, then please tell me what is so friggin' wonderful about any of these personal mobility appliances. The way I see it, these cars are the mechanical equivalent of Top-40 radio; bland mindless pablum for the ignorant masses too lazy to seek out anything better. They are cynically developed to pander to the lowest common denominator who easily fall victim to the herd mentality. Sneer all you like but I adamantly refuse to become one of the mindless sheep who feels the need to cave in to peer pressure and brainless conformity.
Boy you're an angry person.
For starters, the Accord has hit Car and Driver's 10 best list for years and years and years. But what the hell would they know?
Now here's the most important part. I can't recall anyone ever spouting out how awesome any of these cars are, so I'm confused as to how they would be considered " overrated ". They do the job that they are supposed to do. The average schlep that has a wife and kids to haul around do just fine buying cars like these. Most on the list are pretty reliable for the money, handle decently enough and get decent gas mileage. All the while giving you a a decent amount of space to haul people and stuff with.
There's a difference between overrated and just blind hate for anything that is popular. Most on the list aren't my favorites either, but I'm not so obtuse as to think that people are mindless for choosing one. They could do far worse.
The fact that Madman is hating on these midsize cars while driving two vehicles which are unbelievably boring and weren't even any good in their day is very funny.
Quote from: thecarnut on May 09, 2012, 05:57:01 PM
The fact that Madman is hating on these midsize cars while driving two vehicles which are unbelievably boring and weren't even any good in their day is very funny.
I was trying to point that out by being ironic. Not sure if anyone picked up on that... :lol:
It'd be one thing to talk about other cars being boring if you daily drove a Morgan or a Delorean or something, but a Catera? :nutty:
New cars are so boring. That's why I bought my Yaris. It's very unique.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 09, 2012, 06:10:38 PM
New cars are so boring. That's why I bought my Yaris. It's very unique.
I've already come to the conclusion the vast majority of the "enthusiasts" out there haven't experienced most cars for sale today, and simply say they're all boring and old cars are so much better just to look anti-conformist. Rebelling for the sake of rebelling.
Quote from: Vinsanity on May 09, 2012, 04:17:57 PM
Or, to put it in a simpler, less pretentious way, some people just want a car. A Camry honestly isn't a bad choice. It's not like there are competitors out there that will give you a BJ when you're stuck in traffic or anything, so there's really not much that average Joe is missing out on when he drives off the lot in his Camry.
I'm going to go ahead and agree. They're not overrated because no one says they're anything that they aren't. Reliable, comfortable, and generally basic transportation for people who don't use their cars for anything other than transportation.
I think many people just take too much for granted, today. New cars can do a lot of things.
Quote from: Raza on May 09, 2012, 06:49:12 PM
I'm going to go ahead and agree. They're not overrated because no one says they're anything that they aren't. Reliable, comfortable, and generally basic transportation for people who don't use their cars for anything other than transportation.
Except for Civics.
Quote from: Laconian on May 09, 2012, 06:49:42 PM
Except for Civics.
The new ones look so odd in profile. It has a lot of wasted length, and a super-high ride height.
(http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000opMohh57Pf4/s/900/2012-honda-civic-coupe-ex-photo-003.jpg)
Actually, I don't think the new coupe is a bad looking car. The sedan looks pretty dowdy, though.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 09, 2012, 06:51:41 PM
The new ones look so odd in profile. It has a lot of wasted length, and a super-high ride height.
(http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000opMohh57Pf4/s/900/2012-honda-civic-coupe-ex-photo-003.jpg)
It kind of reminds me a little of the also unfortunate Pontiac G6 coupe.
(http://www.autospectator.com/cars/files/images/2008-Pontiac-G6-GT-Coupe-02.jpg)
I dunno, the G6 is actually fairly pretty in person.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 09, 2012, 07:05:57 PM
I dunno, the G6 is actually fairly pretty in person.
Stop! I feel like you're just constantly on a warpath to discredit yourself! :lol:
Quote from: MrH on May 09, 2012, 07:38:07 PM
Stop! I feel like you're just constantly on a warpath to discredit yourself! :lol:
:lol:
Quote from: MrH on May 09, 2012, 07:38:07 PM
Stop! I feel like you're just constantly on a warpath to discredit yourself! :lol:
I said it a few months ago, and a lot of people agreed with me.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 09, 2012, 07:49:50 PM
I said it a few months ago, and a lot of people agreed with me.
That doesn't make you right. It just makes them wrong too.
Ah blah blah.
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 05:28:39 PM
You do realise that your CTS would have also been called Catera had Cadillac not decided to switch to three-letter model designations, right? I'm sure you are also aware CTS originally stood for "Catera Touring Sedan"?
I can agree that the Catera was a good idea. I have to admit I thought it was an interesting idea when they first came out. The execution? Yech.
I have to think that if it weren't for the Lincoln LS, Cadillac wouldn't have been convinced that Detroit could build a decent sport-luxury sedan that people would actually want to buy. The Catera, on its own, wasn't a very convincing case
Quote from: Vinsanity on May 09, 2012, 08:29:45 PM
I can agree that the Catera was a good idea. I have to admit I thought it was an interesting idea when they first came out. The execution? Yech.
I have to think that if it weren't for the Lincoln LS, Cadillac wouldn't have been convinced that Detroit could build a decent sport-luxury sedan that people would actually want to buy. The Catera, on its own, wasn't a very convincing case
Dude...it zigged.
There's a new si sedan inn red in my town and I double take every time.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 09, 2012, 07:05:57 PM
I dunno, the G6 is actually fairly pretty in person.
It reeks of GMness.
Quote from: Raza on May 09, 2012, 08:39:29 PM
Dude...it zigged.
LOL. I haven't thought of that slogan in years. Awful!
Ad campaign: "zigging", Cindy Crawford, and cartoon ducks!
IT'LL SELL MILLIONS
Quote from: Laconian on May 11, 2012, 06:23:07 PM
Ad campaign: "zigging", Cindy Crawford, and cartoon ducks!
IT'LL SELL MILLIONS
:lol:
Don't forget the Opel/Vauxhall Omega (AKA Cadillac Catera) also spawned the Holden Commodore VX and, in coupe form, the Holden Monaro which came to America as the Pontiac GTO. Funny how I never see anyone ripping on the GTO, even though it's basically a two-door Catera with a Corvette engine.
Everyone rips on the GTO. It looks like a Cavalier.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 11, 2012, 06:33:02 PM
Everyone rips on the GTO. It looks like a Cavalier.
Yeah, the GTO is nowhere near as cool as a Toyota Yaris sedan! :rolleyes:
:lol:
No, the GTO really does look like a Cavalier. If I'm not really paying attention, I get them confused.
Pretty much all Cadillacs, all Inifinities and the Prius.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 11, 2012, 06:36:13 PM
No, the GTO really does look like a Cavalier. If I'm not really paying attention, I get them confused.
:confused: I've NEVER confused a GTO with a Cavalier. I see the resemblance but theres no way in hell I could confuse the two! Thats like confusing a Cayman with a Panamera!
Quote from: 2o6 on May 11, 2012, 06:33:02 PM
Everyone rips on the GTO. It looks like a Cavalier.
Many people this, a lot of guys that, everyone blah blah blah. I swear all these voices are in your head.
Quote from: hounddog on May 11, 2012, 06:39:59 PM
Pretty much all Cadillacs, all Inifinities and the Prius.
The G37 isn't overrated and neither is the Prius. Everything else I agree with.
On another note, could you shorten your signature please? It's longer than most posts.
Dude, there are tons of longer sigs than hd's, including, like, your's.
Unless he has images that I've got blocked...
Quote from: Madman on May 11, 2012, 06:32:14 PM
:lol:
Don't forget the Opel/Vauxhall Omega (AKA Cadillac Catera) also spawned the Holden Commodore VX and, in coupe form, the Holden Monaro which came to America as the Pontiac GTO. Funny how I never see anyone ripping on the GTO, even though it's basically a two-door Catera with a Corvette engine.
Yeah, funny thing, but that last point? The Corvette engine?
Reeaallly important. :ohyeah:
Quote from: Rupert on May 11, 2012, 11:03:06 PM
Dude, there are tons of longer sigs than hd's, including, like, your's.
Unless he has images that I've got blocked...
No it's not. I have a picture and a single quote. He has an entire book.
Um, yes, your sig is absolutely longer than his. And you have two quotes.
I have one now. But it's not the physical length, it's the sheer number of words.
Now they're the same length.
You don't have to read all those words in every post, you know.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 11, 2012, 10:48:14 PM
Many people this, a lot of guys that, everyone blah blah blah. I swear all these voices are in your head.
:like:
Quote from: Rupert on May 11, 2012, 11:08:08 PM
Um, yes, your sig is absolutely longer than his. And you have two quotes.
Maybe on your screen. On mine, 2o6's is like a page from Don Quixote compared with Craig's.
Hounddog's
Good call.
Quote from: Rupert on May 11, 2012, 11:12:17 PM
Now they're the same length.
You don't have to read all those words in every post, you know.
:hesaid:
Not changing it until I feel like it. :huh:
It is what it is until it is no longer.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 11, 2012, 11:09:38 PM
I have one now. But it's not the physical length, it's the sheer number of words.
We all know words bother you, you have demonstrated that on numerous occasions.
However, nothing I have quoted is more then two sentences.
Now, if you are talking about your phone being buggared up by it then I could possibly be pursuaded to make a cut or two.
Quote from: S204STi on May 11, 2012, 11:18:54 PM
Maybe on your screen. On mine, 2o6's is like a page from Don Quixote compared with Craig's.
Impossible. My screen is the God screen, and all other screens were created in its image.
Ah. Well then.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 11, 2012, 06:33:02 PM
Everyone rips on the GTO. It looks like a Cavalier.
WTF? I've never heard anyone rip on the GTO. And I've never seen anyone confuse it with a Cavalier.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 06, 2012, 10:10:53 PM
(http://www.chathamjournal.com/weekly/moxiepix/a4552.jpg)
Journalists overlook the crap fuel economy, cheap interior and slow performance because it "drives well" and they continue to hand it the driving victory over cars like the Fiesta, 2 and Sonic.
I've driven one. It's not all that special. Doesn't feel all that much sharper than my car to drive.
We are 100% in agreement on this. I hated it as the Honda Jazz (a few years before we got the "new" Honda Fit), and it's still a craptastically cheap and unpleasant car as the Fit.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 11, 2012, 06:33:02 PM
Everyone rips on the GTO. It looks like a Cavalier.
Now I 100% disagree. The GTO isn't as "HEY LOOK AT ME!" as a lot of sports cars, but it's a very nice car and certainly looks nowhere as cheap or dowdy as a Cavalier.
Quote from: Madman on May 09, 2012, 09:11:15 AM
Most of the best selling names out there are truly overrated.
Camry, Civic, Accord, Altima, Corolla, etc. Every last one is a prime example of middle-of-the-road mediocrity.
:rage:
(http://static.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/03db076d5e8d35cbad9ab6dee2767776.png)
(In the spirit of our posts in the clothing and style thread :lol:)
Quote from: SVT666 on May 11, 2012, 10:53:55 PM
The G37 isn't overrated and neither is the Prius. Everything else I agree with.
G37, maybe not I dunno as I see almost zero of them. :huh:
The Prius IS overrated because of how long it takes to pay for itself, that it is a loser in comparisons: Prius vs. BMW 520d and Prius vs. Jetta TDI
It loses in passenger comfort, handling, performance, ride noise, price, cost to operate, nickle mining for the batteries, etc.
Prius v TDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_DunEDBoEk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xYZu1wy-lM&feature=related
Prius v BMW 520d
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/17/toyota-prius-is-a-gas-guzzler-compared-to-the-bmw-520d/
http://goodcleantech.pcmag.com/automotive/281082-bmw-beats-prius-in-mpgs
Yes, it gets good mileage. However, beyond that the car is just an aweful thing using every measurable metric.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 11, 2012, 06:36:13 PM
No, the GTO really does look like a Cavalier. If I'm not really paying attention, I get them confused.
You can't be serious. And all this time I had you pegged for a car enthusiast.
I agree with HD. If you're not an aging hippie who wants to impress your friends when you meet up at a vegetarian restaurant in San Francisco, there is no reason to buy a Prius whatsoever.
The Prius really is a pretty good vehicle. It's extremely spacious, pretty well built, and relatively inexpensive. We don't GET the 520d, so the Jetta TDI is its only real competition. The Jetta does get great gas mileage, but the interior has too many compromises. The Sportwagen TDI is the perfect mix of fuel efficiency, space, and build quality, but the Prius does the same thing for the same money.
Quote from: TurboDan on May 12, 2012, 10:18:31 AM
I agree with HD. If you're not an aging hippie who wants to impress your friends when you meet up at a vegetarian restaurant in San Francisco, there is no reason to buy a Prius whatsoever.
Although the Prius has compromises in performance and space (compared to a midsizer) it's better on gas.
And the Prius C is a very, very good value. 53 city, 46 highway economy numbers. Compare that to the Sonic 1.8L, which offers far worse economy and similar performance and space numbers. The Prius C is only 2K or so more expensive.
Quote from: TurboDan on May 12, 2012, 10:18:31 AM
I agree with HD. If you're not an aging hippie who wants to impress your friends when you meet up at a vegetarian restaurant in San Francisco, there is no reason to buy a Prius whatsoever.
Automotive choices are never 100% logical anyway. I'd rather someone show off in a fuel sipping Prius than a gas guzzling Escalade.
A smart enthusiast should want every unthusiast to be driving the smallest, most fuel efficient car possible. Why waste oil on the philistines?
:clap:
The GTO was awesome. Anyone who rips on it has never driven one, period. It's one of the most underrated cars in recent memory.
Quote from: CJ on May 12, 2012, 10:36:42 AM
The Prius really is a pretty good vehicle. It's extremely spacious, pretty well built, and relatively inexpensive. We don't GET the 520d, so the Jetta TDI is its only real competition. The Jetta does get great gas mileage, but the interior has too many compromises. The Sportwagen TDI is the perfect mix of fuel efficiency, space, and build quality, but the Prius does the same thing for the same money.
We may not get the 520d here, but, the rest of the world does get it.
Since the US accounts for only about 4.5% of the world populace, that we do not get the car is irrelevant to this portion of the discussion.
And, I think it would be pretty hard for you to find many people who would actually prefer the clunky interior of the Prius over the far more refined Jetta.
I have yet to find ANY comparos where the testers prefered the Prius for anything other then city fuel economy.
I would tend to agree the Jetta TDI wagon would be a more useful choice if one was looking to haul larger items. In fact, there is one in town for sale and it looks pretty nice, and quite large considering it is considered a small platform.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on May 12, 2012, 10:51:06 AM
Automotive choices are never 100% logical anyway. I'd rather someone show off in a fuel sipping Prius than a gas guzzling Escalade.
A smart enthusiast should want every unthusiast to be driving the smallest, most fuel efficient car possible. Why waste oil on the philistines?
No, because then companies would only sell that type of product.
Quote from: Raza on May 12, 2012, 12:30:41 PM
The GTO was awesome. Anyone who rips on it has never driven one, period. It's one of the most underrated cars in recent memory.
Big power but it was expensive ($33k msrp in 2005 is equivalent to almost $40k today), sorta flimsy and wasn't much of a (distinguished) looker.
The styling of the GTO wasn't great, I agree. It was way too subdued. The handling was good, but it wasn't great. The wallowy 300C handled better according to the mags, but the power was fantastic. I still kinda want one.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 13, 2012, 10:28:17 AM
The wallowy 300C handled better according to the mags
Seriously?
Quote from: 68_427 on May 13, 2012, 11:06:12 AM
No
Actually, IIRC, when C&D did a direct comparo between the two in '05, they said the 300C was the better handler.
Quote from: hounddog on May 13, 2012, 07:02:39 AM
We may not get the 520d here, but, the rest of the world does get it.
Since the US accounts for only about 4.5% of the world populace, that we do not get the car is irrelevant to this portion of the discussion.
And, I think it would be pretty hard for you to find many people who would actually prefer the clunky interior of the Prius over the far more refined Jetta.
I have yet to find ANY comparos where the testers prefered the Prius for anything other then city fuel economy.
I would tend to agree the Jetta TDI wagon would be a more useful choice if one was looking to haul larger items. In fact, there is one in town for sale and it looks pretty nice, and quite large considering it is considered a small platform.
Considering that the US (You know, the country we live in) doesn't get the 520d, I'd say it's perfectly relevant for this discussion.
The new Jetta's interior is pretty shit, which is reason enough for me to buy a Prius over a Jetta.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 13, 2012, 10:28:17 AM
The styling of the GTO wasn't great, I agree. It was way too subdued. The handling was good, but it wasn't great. The wallowy 300C handled better according to the mags, but the power was fantastic. I still kinda want one.
My roommate had an LS2 model for awhile that I got to drive a few times. It was a cool car, pretty fast and with a nice interior. Especially nice back seat that was only lacking a center arm rest. We took it from Austin to Houston, with me in the back (6'0/185lbs) and my other roommate, who was of equal, in the front passenger. My knees didn't even touch.
Handling wise, it was alright. The rear diff didn't particularly lock very well and it was kind of floaty. The shifter straight up sucked. I mean really really bad. And the pedals were very poorly positioned.
Quote from: Raza on May 12, 2012, 12:30:41 PM
The GTO was awesome. Anyone who rips on it has never driven one, period. It's one of the most underrated cars in recent memory.
Definitely. Blisteringly quick, great handling, and built very well. The only Pontiac I may like better is the G8, though they are somewhat different in purpose.
Quote from: S204STi on May 13, 2012, 03:14:42 PM
Definitely. Blisteringly quick, great handling, and built very well. The only Pontiac I may like better is the G8, though they are somewhat different in purpose.
I would be cautious to say it was a great handling car, especially with the stock tires and suspension. That car with better tires would probably be a lot better, but it still had a fair amount of BR in corners. The GTO was also too quiet with stock exhaust, for having such a nice engine.
The G8 is nice (I never got to drive a GXP), but the GT definitely felt like it had less soul than the GTO.
Quote from: CJ on May 13, 2012, 12:48:07 PM
Considering that the US (You know, the country we live in) doesn't get the 520d, I'd say it's perfectly relevant for this discussion.
The new Jetta's interior is pretty shit, which is reason enough for me to buy a Prius over a Jetta.
Not the wagon's.
Quote from: ifcar on May 13, 2012, 05:45:50 PM
Not the wagon's.
I know. The wagon's interior is extremely nice.
Quote from: S204STi on May 13, 2012, 03:14:42 PM
Definitely. Blisteringly quick, great handling, and built very well. The only Pontiac I may like better is the G8, though they are somewhat different in purpose.
:cheers:
Quote from: LonghornTX on May 13, 2012, 03:27:31 PM
The GTO was also too quiet with stock exhaust, for having such a nice engine.
Same goes for my G8.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on May 13, 2012, 07:06:04 AM
No, because then companies would only sell that type of product.
Wrong.
Crossovers, midsize sedans, minivans, SUVs, and trucks are not suited for enthusiasts either. And they sell a lot more of those than sporty cars.
The Prius delivers on its fuel efficient premises moreso than any other hybrid. The interior is *enormous* and smartly laid out. The transmission is ingenious. I think it's a sweet car, it's just not a car that I would want. There are so many other cars that are more deserving of my scorn than the dorky Prius.
Quote from: LonghornTX on May 13, 2012, 03:27:31 PM
I would be cautious to say it was a great handling car, especially with the stock tires and suspension. That car with better tires would probably be a lot better, but it still had a fair amount of BR in corners. The GTO was also too quiet with stock exhaust, for having such a nice engine.
The G8 is nice (I never got to drive a GXP), but the GT definitely felt like it had less soul than the GTO.
Remember, the LS1 and LS2 GTOs acted quite differently. The LS2 was louder, sharper, and better to drive than the more subdued LS1 version.
I?d say anything Kia/Hyundai these days is overrated.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 13, 2012, 11:37:18 AM
Actually, IIRC, when C&D did a direct comparo between the two in '05, they said the 300C was the better handler.
They were full of shit then- I drive the Charger for work and I owned the '05 and the GTO had better handling prowess. And Jeremy Clarkson agrees- loved the GTO hated the LX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=680X8C5E1YY&feature=related
Quote from: rohan on May 14, 2012, 07:39:33 PM
They were full of shit then- I drive the Charger for work and I owned the '05 and the GTO had better handling prowess. And Jeremy Clarkson agrees- loved the GTO hated the LX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=680X8C5E1YY&feature=related
Oh well then, if Jeremy Clarkson agrees...
I recall seeing a comparo in one of the major US mags (might have been MotorTrend) where an LX car trumped the GTO in most performance categories. However, the LX car was wearing wide, summer performance tires while the GTO had narrower all-seasons, and the difference in performance (braking, skidpad, etc) were well within the margins of what better tires could get you.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 13, 2012, 11:37:18 AM
Actually, IIRC, when C&D did a direct comparo between the two in '05, they said the 300C was the better handler.
Quote from: rohan on May 14, 2012, 07:39:33 PM
They were full of shit then- I drive the Charger for work and I owned the '05 and the GTO had better handling prowess. And Jeremy Clarkson agrees- loved the GTO hated the LX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=680X8C5E1YY&feature=related
Top Gear also put the Monaro/GTO up against the 300C and the Jaguar S-Type R. All three presenters agreed the Chrysler was the most disappointing car of the bunch. It wasn't a great handling car to begin with and it was made worse by the fact you couldn't turn the traction control completely off.
I couldn't find a video of the whole segment. This one only contains the drag race portion of the test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4eoeEiBmxs
Quote from: Raza on May 14, 2012, 11:14:23 AM
Remember, the LS1 and LS2 GTOs acted quite differently. The LS2 was louder, sharper, and better to drive than the more subdued LS1 version.
My roommate had the LS2 model. It was pretty quiet actually.
Quote from: LonghornTX on May 14, 2012, 09:00:43 PM
My roommate had the LS2 model. It was pretty quiet actually.
Our definitions of loud and quiet must be different.
He has a modded mustang. You drive German sedans
Quote from: Raza on May 14, 2012, 09:40:18 PM
Our definitions of loud and quiet must be different.
By V8 powered RWD American car standards, it was pretty quiet (inside and out)
Quote from: MX793 on May 14, 2012, 08:49:13 PM
I recall seeing a comparo in one of the major US mags (might have been MotorTrend) where an LX car trumped the GTO in most performance categories. However, the LX car was wearing wide, summer performance tires while the GTO had narrower all-seasons, and the difference in performance (braking, skidpad, etc) were well within the margins of what better tires could get you.
But which GTO the underpowered 5.7 that was pretty squishy and had terrible brake fade or the 6.0 with better suspension and Brembo brakes?
Quote from: rohan on May 14, 2012, 10:42:00 PM
But which GTO the underpowered 5.7 that was pretty squishy and had terrible brake fade or the 6.0 with better suspension and Brembo brakes?
The 05-06 model still had a pretty squishy suspension IMO. Also, I don't think they came with Brembo brakes
Quote from: LonghornTX on May 15, 2012, 12:39:14 PM
The 05-06 model still had a pretty squishy suspension IMO. Also, I don't think they came with Brembo brakes
Right I remembered it wrong- the GTO had pbr's- had the Brembos on that Cobra I bought from Tony and I think that's what's factory on my 545 but not entirely sure.
Quote from: Madman on May 14, 2012, 08:57:15 PM
Top Gear also put the Monaro/GTO up against the 300C and the Jaguar S-Type R. All three presenters agreed the Chrysler was the most disappointing car of the bunch. It wasn't a great handling car to begin with and it was made worse by the fact you couldn't turn the traction control completely off.
I couldn't find a video of the whole segment. This one only contains the drag race portion of the test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4eoeEiBmxs
Top Gear is my favourite show, but Jeremy and James are terrible at testing cars and formulating opinions on them. Hammond is a little better and is spot on more often than not.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 15, 2012, 03:17:33 PM
Top Gear is my favourite show, but Jeremy and James are terrible at testing cars and formulating opinions on them. Hammond is a little better and is spot on more often than not.
You just say that because he loves Porsches so much. Jeremy likes brute force more than handling, though he does like that too. He just likes whatever makes he giggle. James likes a car that has a good ride/handling compromise. They each have their bias, as does anyone. I agree with James that the Nurburgring is ruining cars, and that because every manufacturer thinks they have to post the best times ever, these cars are too fast to enjoy on the street, and that in the real world those suspension setups only crush your spine. I also agree with Jeremy that there are few things on this planet that are as exhilarating as the brute force provided by 400+ hp engines. I like Hammond's preference for old school stuff like muscle cars and Morgans.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 15, 2012, 03:31:01 PM
I agree with James that the Nurburgring is ruining cars,
Interesting, do you know which episode he said this?
Quote from: HotRodPilot on May 15, 2012, 03:46:45 PM
Interesting, do you know which episode he said this?
Multiple episodes in the past 2 series.
Quote from: hotrodalex on May 15, 2012, 03:47:54 PM
Multiple episodes in the past 2 series.
If anyone knows which episode or what car they are reviewing when he says it, I'd like to know. I just want to hear the conversation and thoughts involved
Corsa N?rburgring Edition and that new McLaren. Corsa ride is terrible, McLaren ride is good.
Corsa is on season 18, episode 3, I believe.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on May 15, 2012, 03:46:45 PM
Interesting, do you know which episode he said this?
Watch Season 18 and it's mentioned in almost every episode.
Thanks dudes
I agree with May on that. I was referring to reviews on individual cars.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on May 15, 2012, 03:46:45 PM
Interesting, do you know which episode he said this?
I think he starts talking about in season 17 when he is reviewing the new Austin Martin Virage.
Yes. You're right. It started with the Virage.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 15, 2012, 03:17:33 PM
Top Gear is my favourite show, but Jeremy and James are terrible at testing cars and formulating opinions on them. Hammond is a little better and is spot on more often than not.
Are you kidding me? James is the best.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 11, 2012, 06:33:02 PM
Everyone rips on the GTO. It looks like a Cavalier.
I think they look nothing alike, although the GTO (Monaro to us) is definitely more restrained than other cars of it's type. In a way this is a good thing but I do think it's quite dated now.
I can see the Cavalier and GTO comparison until you put them next to each other. Once you do that, there is no similarity. The same cannot be said for the 1994 Camaro and Geo Storm. The Camaro looks like a scaled up version of the Storm.
(http://www.rollette.com/camaro/pictures/image01.jpg)
(http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2510/1681/6273340009_large.jpg)