http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/11/cadillacs-director-brand-reputation-strategy-dont-want-automotive-brand/#more-953897 (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/11/cadillacs-director-brand-reputation-strategy-dont-want-automotive-brand/#more-953897)
QuoteIn an interview held at Cadillac's new business headquarters in New York City's trendy SoHo district with Fortune, Melody Lee, 'director of brand and reputation strategy' for General Motors' luxury brand, had some interesting things to say about the move to NYC, about the brand, and about herself. Other than to say that it's just quite possible that outstanding product is a little bit more important to a company's success than Ms. Lee seems to think, I'm not going to comment on her remarks because I think they speak for themselves and, frankly, I think they don't bode well for the brand. You can read them and offer your own commentary after the jump. The engineers and designers at GM have given Cadillac the best products that it has had in decades, but automotive history has many examples of fine vehicles that were crippled in the marketplace by the very people trying to market them.
Thus spake Melody Lee:
"I'll often say, 'Well, do you want a millennial's perspective?' You have one right here."
"Everyone in New York is always just a little bit ahead of everyone else and we need to be the brand that stands for that."
"I don't buy products, I buy brands. I don't use Apple computers because they are the best computers, I use them because Apple is cool. We need to show drivers what the Cadillac lifestyle is all about."
"We want to be a global luxury brand that happens to sell cars. We don't want to be an automotive brand."
Hat tip to Pete DeLorenzo for spotting the interview with Lee.
The floor is open for your discussion now.
Wat a train wreck. A self-writing Greek tragedy.
Say what you want about the Germans today but their come up was built on product and understanding + quickly responding to their market, not this MBA smoke and mirror bullshit. Caddy's cars are decent now, but if they put as much effort into delivering value as they did into marketing... well, they probably wouldn't need a "brand and reputation" director.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 30, 2014, 04:39:45 PM
"I don't buy products, I buy brands. I don't use Apple computers because they are the best computers, I use them because Apple is cool.
Just be glad that this fool is not in the engineering department.
"Good news everyone"
The most interesting thing, imo, is her name.
That's a stupid article trying to paint her as a dumb person. The writer takes her words and takes them out of context implying she thinks that the product doesn't matter. She doesn't say that at all. She's saying that she's focusing on marketing Cadillac as a "cool" brand which is crucial for it's success. Here's a much better article on her:
http://fortune.com/2014/11/18/cadillac-brand-director-melody-lee/ (http://fortune.com/2014/11/18/cadillac-brand-director-melody-lee/)
Quote from: veeman on November 30, 2014, 07:29:52 PM
That's a stupid article trying to paint her as a dumb person. The writer takes her words and takes them out of context implying she thinks that the product doesn't matter. She doesn't say that at all. She's saying that she's focusing on marketing Cadillac as a "cool" brand which is crucial for it's success. Here's a much better article on her:
http://fortune.com/2014/11/18/cadillac-brand-director-melody-lee/ (http://fortune.com/2014/11/18/cadillac-brand-director-melody-lee/)
Nope, that article is not better. And no one is trying to paint her as a dumb person, she does that hereself.
"I don't buy products, I buy brands," explained Lee. "I don't use Apple computers because they are the best computers, I use them because Apple is cool. There is no context that makes that acceptable. For a supposed marketing expert to say something that utterly stupid is baffling. And it would not surprise me if she is soon the ex Director of Brand & Reputation.
Who cares?
BMW and Audi have a very strong brand. Lexus is starting to create one, and Lincoln's, Cadillac and Infiniti have really terrible branding.
These cars are more aspirational, and Cadillac has to create an air that goes beyond the initial product
Lexus hasn't had the coolest brand image, but they've been able to get past that with impeccable quality
What this dummy doesn't understand is that Apple is considered cool because of years of great product.
It's all about the product. Yeah, you need some marketing, but you can't build a sustainable brand based on marketing (as Lincoln is trying to do right now)
Quote from: CALL_911 on November 30, 2014, 09:47:20 PM
Lexus hasn't had the coolest brand image, but they've been able to get past that with impeccable quality
Interesting. Perception is a powerful marketing tool. Toyota/Lexus have gotten away with a lot of quality issues, over the last few years, because of customers' perception. We should keep in mind, though, that perception is only skin deep. Put a nice face on something and people will believe it has quality.
Quote from: hotrodalex on November 30, 2014, 09:25:52 PM
Who cares?
For starters, anyone who took the time to post in this thread.
But thanks for playing :clap:
Do you not see the amount of branding and brand identity that BMW has? Ever been in a BMW lifestyle center? What about all of the tours, European deliveries, and other non product related BS they have? (Little mini cafe's, museums, etc and all of the BS that Wimmer and Colin posts on)
VWAG has a lot of that too.
GM has none of that.
While Lexus may not be considered "cool" on this forum, it has amazing marketing and is a very aspirational brand for a lot of young people, particularly women, with money.
The whole red gift wrap bow on a Lexus as a Christmas present, with a background of a real nice house and snow and laughing running kids, and model looking Dad and Mom in wool coats - that's been playing now this time of year for probably close to a decade.
And the Lexus ES isn't that great a value or car... It's OK. Sure sells well.
Marketing the image and lifestyle over product has been a huge boon for Harley-Davidson. I read a piece a while back where somebody got ahold of a sales handbook for H-D and it's all about selling the image of the bike rather than the machine itself.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 01, 2014, 06:36:10 AM
Do you not see the amount of branding and brand identity that BMW has? Ever been in a BMW lifestyle center? What about all of the tours, European deliveries, and other non product related BS they have? (Little mini cafe's, museums, etc and all of the BS that Wimmer and Colin posts on)
VWAG has a lot of that too.
GM has none of that.
I mean BMW's branding/brand identity is all good and well, but what % of their customers do/see any of it? The component of BMW's brand that does the heavy lifting is the reputation and legacy it has built over the last 40 years. Same with Mercedes and to a lesser degree VWAG. I mean in the late 90s/early 00s I would dare say Mercedes and VWAG were damn near as poorly built as GMs in their worst period. OK maybe not as bad, but close considering how bulletproof Mercedes were not even 10 years prior. and yet people kept buying the cars and today nobody cares. The Germans figured out how to sell the dream and have pretty good product behind that.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 01, 2014, 06:36:10 AM
Do you not see the amount of branding and brand identity that BMW has? Ever been in a BMW lifestyle center? What about all of the tours, European deliveries, and other non product related BS they have? (Little mini cafe's, museums, etc and all of the BS that Wimmer and Colin posts on)
VWAG has a lot of that too.
GM has none of that.
Not true, they have an outdated museum with a hole filed with cars.
And free balloons for the kiddies.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 01, 2014, 07:33:49 AM
I mean BMW's branding/brand identity is all good and well, but what % of their customers do/see any of it? The component of BMW's brand that does the heavy lifting is the reputation and legacy it has built over the last 40 years. Same with Mercedes and to a lesser degree VWAG. I mean in the late 90s/early 00s I would dare say Mercedes and VWAG were damn near as poorly built as GMs in their worst period. OK maybe not as bad, but close considering how bulletproof Mercedes were not even 10 years prior. and yet people kept buying the cars and today nobody cares. The Germans figured out how to sell the dream and have pretty good product behind that.
Quite true. I believe it's still valid to say that most who buy BMW, Audi and, especially, Mercedes, is for status. As for Lexus, they are still exercising "the passionate pursuit of perception".
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on December 01, 2014, 07:37:17 AM
Not true, they have an outdated museum with a hole filed with cars.
And free balloons for the kiddies.
:lol:
When I think of Cadillac, I think of old mafioso and guys who fancy their sisters.
The lady who is saying tha Apple is big because it's cool is clueless. You need to build a good product before you have a shot at cultivating that image. The ATS V looks promising, but what do they have besides that? Nothing else in their lineup stands out against the competition.
Quote from: Submariner on December 01, 2014, 09:06:29 AM
When I think of Cadillac, I think of old mafioso and guys who fancy their sisters.
The lady who is saying tha Apple is big because it's cool is clueless. You need to build a good product before you have a shot at cultivating that image. The ATS V looks promising, but what do they have besides that? Nothing else in their lineup stands out against the competition.
That's true, but creating a brand that people want to buy can go a long way despite actual good product
Quote from: Submariner on December 01, 2014, 09:06:29 AM
When I think of Cadillac, I think of old mafioso and guys who fancy their sisters.
...and pimpmobiles.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 01, 2014, 10:35:12 AM
That's true, but creating a brand that people want to buy can go a long way despite actual good product
It can only go so far. Like fat girl Myspace angles. Might get people talking for a little bit. Wont get people buying
Cadillac's problem is still product. With good product marketing is pretty simple and easy.
They're both very important (product and marketing). Cadillac can sell more ATS/CTS with better marketing. Although NYC isn't really a car place, there is uber wealth in NYC and there is lots of suburbia in New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut filled with people whose employment is in NYC. All of the people who own 2 bedroom apartments in NYC, most of which are over 1 million dollars, also own cars. NYC is also one of the biggest travel destinations in the U.S. Having your marketing headquarters in NYC makes good sense.
Her Apple analogy falls short because their product is amazing but there's plenty of very successful product out there in which the product itself is ho-hum. Movado watches and Corona beer come to mind.
The whole division of toyota/lexus is really just a marketing tool and a very successful one.
What's wrong with trying to create the brand image at the same time as new product? I swear you guys pick at every little step Cadillac takes even if it's a step in the right direction because you want them to jump straight to the end. That's not possible...
BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. all have amazing branding. If Cadillac wants to play with the big boys, they need to as well. Apple products are bought because they are Apple products. The young people that buy them don't have a clue about which products are actually the best. Just which ones are popular and cool. Want an even better example? Beats headphones. Decent headphones for $100, but sold at 3x that. Why? Branding. Image. Coolness.
Quote from: veeman on December 01, 2014, 11:31:15 AM
They're both very important (product and marketing). Cadillac can sell more ATS/CTS with better marketing. Although NYC isn't really a car place, there is uber wealth in NYC and there is lots of suburbia in New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut filled with people whose employment is in NYC. All of the people who own 2 bedroom apartments in NYC, most of which are over 1 million dollars, also own cars. NYC is also one of the biggest travel destinations in the U.S. Having your marketing headquarters in NYC makes good sense.
Not really for a few reasons.
First of all NYers are damn near European when it comes to brands. I lived in those million dollar apartment neighborhoods. I have a picture somewhere of about 5 E46 325is parked back to back or across the street from each other. Secondly I dont see how marketing HQ in NYC helps if the product isnt conducive to what NYC wants. If Hummer moved its HQ to NYC that would not help them sell Hummers. Plus in any case they should have done the market research before committing to building an all new platform. What can this new HQ do to help with cars they are already committed to building?
Quote from: hotrodalex on December 01, 2014, 11:36:16 AMWhat's wrong with trying to create the brand image at the same time as new product?
No amount of branding can help sell the wrong product, which is what Caddy has.
"Fighting the Germans" in 2014 means PHEVs, CUVs, and generally finding HOLES in the market the Germans don't have covered, not trying to infiltrate their core business. Outside of the PHEVs thats pretty much how Lexus got to where it is today (as well as a more consistent lineup, and making the most of its blank sheet reputation + timing).
Im hard on Cadillac because it seems like they are blowing opportunities back to back
Wrong product according to you, which means nothing.
No, to the market too, given missed sales targets, low transaction prices and high rebates
Average sport sedan market buyer doesnt give a shit about 10/10ths dynamics or "Brembo brakes".... and isnt gonna buy a damn Cadillac over a BMW/Mercedes/Audi or even a Lexus
Plus the ATS/CTS give no reasons to be bought over their German competitors. Can anyone give any reasons besides "someone mite want something different"
Okay. What do the Germans offer over Cadillac?
Quote from: hotrodalex on December 01, 2014, 12:44:41 PM
Okay. What do the Germans offer over Cadillac?
They didn't peddle crap from 1980 through the early 2000s? Caddy drove buyers away. If they want to win them back from the Germans, they need something that will make people leave their German cars. Offering the same thing as the competition with a different badge isn't going to cut it, and it's unlikely the Germans will screw up badly enough to drive their customers away.
Quote from: MX793 on December 01, 2014, 01:14:26 PM
They didn't peddle crap from 1980 through the early 2000s? Caddy drove buyers away. If they want to win them back from the Germans, they need something that will make people leave their German cars. Offering the same thing as the competition with a different badge isn't going to cut it, and it's unlikely the Germans will screw up badly enough to drive their customers away.
Hmm. So the only thing the Germans offer is a better brand reputation? Is that not what Cadillac is trying to overcome with their marketing?
Also, my generation has a different perception if Cadillac. We grew up with Escalades being a status symbol. Many people my age have a positive opinion if Cadillacs, especially the fast ones. The brand is probably soiled for the middle aged group, but is on the way up in the minds of the younger crowd.
Quote from: hotrodalex on December 01, 2014, 01:18:28 PM
Hmm. So the only thing the Germans offer is a better brand reputation? Is that not what Cadillac is trying to overcome with their marketing?
Also, my generation has a different perception if Cadillac. We grew up with Escalades being a status symbol. Many people my age have a positive opinion if Cadillacs, especially the fast ones. The brand is probably soiled for the middle aged group, but is on the way up in the minds of the younger crowd.
I grew up in the late 80s through the 90s. The only thing Caddy made before the CTS that someone under the age of 70 didn't look out of place in (and that wasn't completely mediocre compared to what the Germans were making) was the Escalade. One vehicle does not really define a brand's image.
It absolutely does. That's the first vehicle that my age group thinks of when you say Cadillac. And it's a vehicle associated with status and wealth. They've got a good thing going for them, just need to keep it up and wait for the older generations to die off. :lol:
Quote from: hotrodalex on December 01, 2014, 01:18:28 PM
Also, my generation has a different perception if Cadillac. We grew up with Escalades being a status symbol. Many people my age have a positive opinion if Cadillacs, especially the fast ones. The brand is probably soiled for the middle aged group, but is on the way up in the minds of the younger crowd.
You bring up a good point. Cadillac's future will hinge on whether or not they can woo a new generation of buyers who see Caddy as an inspirational brand. Gen Y will be crucial for Cadillac if they are to survive. However, for me and others my age, it's too late. My generation sees the Cadillac brand as damaged goods and, no matter how good the cars become, the stigma of the '80s and '90s will still persist.
We've seen this generational shift before. The WWII generation were reluctant to buy German and Japanese imports because of their experiences during the war. Their Baby Boomer children, however, had no such qualms about driving a Volkswagen or a Datsun when they came of age. For Gen-Xers like me, we suffered through the nadir of American car manufacturing and aspired to attain the Yuppie dream of Armani suits in the closet, a Rolex watch on the wrist and a BMW in the driveway. For me, a Cadillac (and a Lincoln, too) will forever be seen as something my dad would drive. Those cars were just as uncool as the Robert Hall polyester suits and the zip-up dress boots he continued to wear many years after they went out of fashion.
She has a point, but she has articulated it rather poorly; which is not a good sign.
Yes, brand means something to a lot of people: but the only way to get a good brand reputation is to produce a good product. (Yes, I know- "But Soup," you're saying "Beats by Dr. Dre..." - Well, OK, I can't explain that one, but as a general rule, it holds true)
Cadillac is now producing good products for the most part, but still suffering from their image leftover from the bad times. That will pass (and hopefully, driven by something other than the Escalade- call me an old fogey if you will, but a rebadged Tahoe with leather seats is Not a Cadillac), but Cadillac will never be able to either out-German the Germans or out-bland the Japanese.
Some Googling says she's only 33 - which explains a lot (and is a likely gonna be a problem).
The first gen CTS was good. Had the ATS followed soon after, and a good STS after than, rather wasting bunches of time on weird stuff like the XLR and Escalade variants, Cadillac would be in a very different place today. Such as it is, the new CTS, XTS and ATS look phenomenal in top trim, and go a long way in righting the ship (the SRX and Escalade has too, but I'm not a fan).
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 01, 2014, 10:59:14 PM
She has a point, but she has articulated it rather poorly; which is not a good sign.
Yes, brand means something to a lot of people: but the only way to get a good brand reputation is to produce a good product. (Yes, I know- "But Soup," you're saying "Beats by Dr. Dre..." - Well, OK, I can't explain that one, but as a general rule, it holds true)
Cadillac is now producing good products for the most part, but still suffering from their image leftover from the bad times. That will pass (and hopefully, driven by something other than the Escalade- call me an old fogey if you will, but a rebadged Tahoe with leather seats is Not a Cadillac), but Cadillac will never be able to either out-German the Germans or out-bland the Japanese.
Yea Beats By Dre is just a way for folks with no money to "wear wealth".... luxury car game is a whole different animal (though maybe not really)
I do agree that Caddy needs to find itself character-wise, and despite ~3-4 decades of crap they do have quite a good bit of history and
technology to draw from. That's really the key. In Caddy's prime the cars were state of the art and had build quality above all else. Today with auto manufacturing being so commoditized build quality just has to be to the industry standard. But Caddy can distinguish itself easily with tech, designs, and V8s. But barring the ELR, which is a joke, and the Escalade, which is a relic (and executive fleet special), they aren't bringing any of that in their lineup.
I still contend that if they drew on their plug in hybrid tech more heavily they would make waves. Tesla is huge on the West Coast and particularly in Hollywood. A very influential group of people are promoting EVs heavily. All of GM's MBAs can't seem to notice that or put two and two together. That is disappointing.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 02, 2014, 05:05:46 AM
Yea Beats By Dre is just a way for folks with no money to "wear wealth".... luxury car game is a whole different animal (though maybe not really)
I do agree that Caddy needs to find itself character-wise, and despite ~3-4 decades of crap they do have quite a good bit of history and technology to draw from. That's really the key. In Caddy's prime the cars were state of the art and had build quality above all else. Today with auto manufacturing being so commoditized build quality just has to be to the industry standard. But Caddy can distinguish itself easily with tech, designs, and V8s. But barring the ELR, which is a joke, and the Escalade, which is a relic (and executive fleet special), they aren't bringing any of that in their lineup.
I still contend that if they drew on their plug in hybrid tech more heavily they would make waves. Tesla is huge on the West Coast and particularly in Hollywood. A very influential group of people are promoting EVs heavily. All of GM's MBAs can't seem to notice that or put two and two together. That is disappointing.
What are you talking about? They made the ELR which has been a huge flop.
Quote from: MrH on December 02, 2014, 05:23:40 AM
What are you talking about? They made the ELR which has been a huge flop.
They need something more versatile and appealing than a slow, expensive, compact coupe.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 01, 2014, 11:44:49 PM
Some Googling says she's only 33 - which explains a lot (and is a likely gonna be a problem).
The first gen CTS was good. Had the ATS followed soon after, and a good STS after than, rather wasting bunches of time on weird stuff like the XLR and Escalade variants, Cadillac would be in a very different place today. Such as it is, the new CTS, XTS and ATS look phenomenal in top trim, and go a long way in righting the ship (the SRX and Escalade has too, but I'm not a fan).
That's the point. She can relate to what the "yoots" want.
Quote from: hotrodalex on December 01, 2014, 04:35:54 PM
It absolutely does. That's the first vehicle that my age group thinks of when you say Cadillac. And it's a vehicle associated with status and wealth. They've got a good thing going for them, just need to keep it up and wait for the older generations to die off. :lol:
I thought it was a vehicle associated with rappers with bad taste.
Quote from: MrH on December 02, 2014, 05:23:40 AM
What are you talking about? They made the ELR which has been a huge flop.
Like I said, ELR was a joke. ELR would have been a flop at half the price with no plug in tech. It is just a bad car. Don't use it as an example of how the market would receive an actual serious luxury PHEV.
Im not crazy. People say Caddy needs to "fight with the Germans" right? Well look at what the "Germans" are doing.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/12/bmw-unveils-3-series-phev-prototype-plans-future-phevs/ (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/12/bmw-unveils-3-series-phev-prototype-plans-future-phevs/)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 02, 2014, 05:05:46 AM
Yea Beats By Dre is just a way for folks with no money to "wear wealth".... luxury car game is a whole different animal (though maybe not really)
I do agree that Caddy needs to find itself character-wise, and despite ~3-4 decades of crap they do have quite a good bit of history and technology to draw from. That's really the key. In Caddy's prime the cars were state of the art and had build quality above all else. Today with auto manufacturing being so commoditized build quality just has to be to the industry standard. But Caddy can distinguish itself easily with tech, designs, and V8s. But barring the ELR, which is a joke, and the Escalade, which is a relic (and executive fleet special), they aren't bringing any of that in their lineup.
I still contend that if they drew on their plug in hybrid tech more heavily they would make waves. Tesla is huge on the West Coast and particularly in Hollywood. A very influential group of people are promoting EVs heavily. All of GM's MBAs can't seem to notice that or put two and two together. That is disappointing.
Nearly everybody in Detroit seems particularly tone-deaf about EVs.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 02, 2014, 05:49:02 AM
I thought it was a vehicle associated with rappers with bad taste.
That depends on your perspective; and that largely follows with age. To a certain extent.
I have met very old people with bad taste as well.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 02, 2014, 05:48:05 AM
That's the point. She can relate to what the "yoots" want.
(http://i.imgur.com/5Xd2L7I.jpg)
"The what?"
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 02, 2014, 02:22:35 PM
That depends on your perspective; and that largely follows with age. To a certain extent.
I have met very old people with bad taste as well.
I've met quite a number of them myself at the local auto shows...all those old goats with hiked up Novas and Chevy IIs :lol:.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 02, 2014, 02:21:18 PM
Nearly everybody in Detroit seems particularly tone-deaf about EVs.
Because there's no material value in it, or in the least precisely no one is going to be an $100k Model S from Dodge or Chevy ;).
Quote from: GoCougs on December 02, 2014, 03:40:17 PM
Because there's no material value in it, or in the least precisely no one is going to be an $100k Model S from Dodge or Chevy ;).
Ignoring a growing segment has been their downfall how many times before?
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 02, 2014, 02:44:53 PM
I've met quite a number of them myself at the local auto shows...all those old goats with hiked up Novas and Chevy IIs :lol:.
No mention of the seniors who drive modern cars with faux Landau roofs or those horrible felt roof coverings?
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 02, 2014, 05:49:02 AM
I thought it was a vehicle associated with rappers with bad taste.
Yep, and rappers have moved on
(http://twelvefresh.com/storage/x-cars/Jay-Z%20%20Kanye%20West%20Otis%20Maybach-5.jpg)
Ugh ^
I like the Escalade, design wise. Rappers and mostly sports stars make it look ugly with outlandish wheels but they do the same thing to Range Rovers, and most people on this forum think the Range Rover is a fantastic looking vehicle. If I had to choose right now among SUVs priced between 60 and 80 grand, I'd take the GMC Yukon Denali extended version in silver (which even looks better).
The Audi Q7 and Mercedes G class, particularly the Mercedes, are both in the same price range as the Cadillac and don't look as good.
I would think that rappers and sports stars make up a small percentage of Escalade sales.
Quote from: veeman on December 03, 2014, 06:42:04 AM
I would think that rappers and sports stars make up a small percentage of Escalade sales.
They make up a very small percentage of sales for anything; but they do a lot to drive brand awareness and perception of that brand.
Quote from: veeman on December 03, 2014, 06:42:04 AM
I like the Escalade, design wise. Rappers and mostly sports stars make it look ugly with outlandish wheels but they do the same thing to Range Rovers, and most people on this forum think the Range Rover is a fantastic looking vehicle. If I had to choose right now among SUVs priced between 60 and 80 grand, I'd take the GMC Yukon Denali extended version in silver (which even looks better).
The Audi Q7 and Mercedes G class, particularly the Mercedes, are both in the same price range as the Cadillac and don't look as good.
I would think that rappers and sports stars make up a small percentage of Escalade sales.
Another thing to consider is underneath all the glitz and bling of the Escalade lurks a plebeian pickup truck.
$60K-$80K for something based on a blue-collar work truck? That's the crack pipe talking!
Quote from: Madman on December 03, 2014, 09:13:50 AM
Another thing to consider is underneath all the glitz and bling of the Escalade lurks a plebeian pickup truck.
$60K-$80K for something based on a blue-collar work truck? That's the crack pipe talking!
:lol:
At least the Escalade is a bit different from the Tahoe now. Different interior and exterior.
The early ones were insulting how much of a blatant ripoff they were. The Cadillac brand was hurt with the Escalade in my opinion. It doesn't scream luxury to my age group, but instead someone who's entirely concerned with being seen.
Quote from: MrH on December 03, 2014, 09:33:26 AM
At least the Escalade is a bit different from the Tahoe now. Different interior and exterior.
The early ones were insulting how much of a blatant ripoff they were. The Cadillac brand was hurt with the Escalade in my opinion. It doesn't scream luxury to my age group, but instead someone who's entirely concerned with being seen.
Yet they, often, tint the windows so dark that no one can see them.
Quote from: MrH on December 03, 2014, 09:33:26 AM
At least the Escalade is a bit different from the Tahoe now. Different interior and exterior.
The early ones were insulting how much of a blatant ripoff they were. The Cadillac brand was hurt with the Escalade in my opinion. It doesn't scream luxury to my age group, but instead someone who's entirely concerned with being seen.
Cadillac in general has this problem, and it's far less acceptable when Cadillac does it versus Buick.
Quote from: MrH on December 03, 2014, 09:33:26 AM
At least the Escalade is a bit different from the Tahoe now. Different interior and exterior.
The early ones were insulting how much of a blatant ripoff they were. The Cadillac brand was hurt with the Escalade in my opinion. It doesn't scream luxury to my age group, but instead someone who's entirely concerned with being seen.
We are the attention generation brah. The Escalade is for us. We made it popular. It doesnt resonate anymore because its concept is old and doesnt generate the kind of attention it used to.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 03, 2014, 01:02:42 PM
We are the attention generation brah. The Escalade is for us. We made it popular. It doesnt resonate anymore because its concept is old and doesnt generate the kind of attention it used to.
I guess that's true. I thought it was stupid when it was popular though too.
I'm all about that understated luxury. The early Escalade was the opposite. Overstated mediocrity :lol:
Quote from: Madman on December 03, 2014, 09:13:50 AM
Another thing to consider is underneath all the glitz and bling of the Escalade lurks a plebeian pickup truck.
$60K-$80K for something based on a blue-collar work truck? That's the crack pipe talking!
Yes, that's why they are cash cows. No less a cash cow as any 60-80K German make. Also, top of the line crew can pick-ups with no fancy Cadillac moniker are north of 50K.
Quote from: MrH on December 03, 2014, 01:25:17 PM
I guess that's true. I thought it was stupid when it was popular though too.
I'm all about that understated luxury. The early Escalade was the opposite. Overstated mediocrity :lol:
GM has a good thing going with the GMC Yukon Denali/Escalade. The Denali appeals to those who don't want to be flashy and the Escalade to those who want to be flashy.
Quote from: MrH on December 03, 2014, 01:25:17 PM
I guess that's true. I thought it was stupid when it was popular though too.
I'm all about that understated luxury. The early Escalade was the opposite. Overstated mediocrity :lol:
The dinner plate sized three pointed star on the $299 lease special CLA pretty much sums up our generation car wise
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 03, 2014, 02:21:10 PM
The dinner plate sized three pointed star on the $299 lease special CLA pretty much sums up our generation car wise
Don't forget the LED illumination
(http://www.mercedescla.org/forum/attachments/3525d1384355049-white-cla-sport-prem-multimedia-pano-led-illuminated-star-tint-11-12-pick-up-img_20131112_191356.jpg)
Modern luxury is GAUCHE
Quote from: CALL_911 on December 03, 2014, 02:43:23 PM
Don't forget the LED illumination
(http://www.mercedescla.org/forum/attachments/3525d1384355049-white-cla-sport-prem-multimedia-pano-led-illuminated-star-tint-11-12-pick-up-img_20131112_191356.jpg)
That's legit. I'm gonna buy one now.
I see a lot of MLs and E coupes with these stupid things, actually
Looks like a Christmas ornament.
Quote from: CALL_911 on December 03, 2014, 02:43:23 PM
Don't forget the LED illumination
(http://www.mercedescla.org/forum/attachments/3525d1384355049-white-cla-sport-prem-multimedia-pano-led-illuminated-star-tint-11-12-pick-up-img_20131112_191356.jpg)
Want to make sure nobody confuses your MB with a compact Hyundai at night.
Quote from: MX793 on December 03, 2014, 04:13:36 PM
Want to make sure nobody confuses your MB with a compact Hyundai at night.
Makes sense
Quote from: MX793 on December 03, 2014, 04:13:36 PM
Want to make sure nobody confuses your MB with a compact Hyundai at night.
I think I just found my million dollar idea. Hyundai Benz grilles here we come.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 03, 2014, 08:30:48 PM
I think I just found my million dollar idea. Hyundai Benz grilles here we come.
Wait do you mean Benz grills on a Hyundai, or Hyundai grills on a Benz?
I'm about to buy a Genesis. It's totally a Hyundai with a Benz looking grill.
Should I get the LED dinner plate for it?
Quote from: hotrodalex on December 04, 2014, 12:18:27 AM
Wait do you mean Benz grills on a Hyundai, or Hyundai grills on a Benz?
I was thinking Benz grilles on a Hyundai but the Genesis logos/grilles on a CLA mite be an upgrade
Quote from: MrH on December 04, 2014, 06:22:28 AM
I'm about to buy a Genesis. It's totally a Hyundai with a Benz looking grill.
Should I get the LED dinner plate for it?
I can do a 1 on 1 consultation for a small fee ($10K) to help guide you through your personal automotive expression journey. SportySpin Automotive Expressions will provide months of expertise and questionable taste to help you navigate and arrive at the imitation grilles, fender vents, questionable badges and cheap Chinese plumbing steel wheels you need to tell the world "I HAVE ARRIVED"
Jesus, I can't believe that LED grill is a factory option. What a fail.
Quote from: Submariner on December 04, 2014, 10:39:37 AM
Jesus, I can't believe that LED grill is a factory option. What a fail.
#GAUCHECOUTOURE
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 03, 2014, 02:21:10 PM
The dinner plate sized three pointed star on the $299 lease special CLA pretty much sums up our generation car wise
There's a $299 lease special on the CLA? Hmm.....
$329
Quote from: Raza on December 04, 2014, 06:21:25 PM
Aw, fuck that.
You can make it $299 a month by only putting down an extra $1,000 up front.
LOL The "down payment" on most leases is more than I paid for my car.
Not that I don't want a nicer car.... :huh:
Quote from: veeman on December 05, 2014, 05:50:22 AM
You can make it $299 a month by only putting down an extra $1,000 up front.
Probably more like $1500.
It usually works out to -$17 a month per $1000 down.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Quote from: veeman on December 03, 2014, 01:49:29 PM
GM has a good thing going with the GMC Yukon Denali/Escalade. The Denali appeals to those who don't want to be flashy and the Escalade to those who want to be flashy.
You call this...
(http://www.gmc.com/content/dam/GMC/global/master/nscwebsite/en/home/Vehicles/Current_Vehicles/2015_Yukon_XL_Denali/Model_Overview/01_images/2015-gmc-yukon-xl-denali-mov-prograde-mm1-960x420-01.jpg)
... "not flashy?"
It is arguably more in your face then the Escalade.
You know, if I were looking for a landyacht to be driven in, I would probably eschew the S/LS/7 and go for a Yukon Denali (or even a Suburban LTZ). These things are seriously awesome for long-distance driving and for passengers.
Quote from: CALL_911 on December 05, 2014, 06:28:03 PM
You know, if I were looking for a landyacht to be driven in, I would probably eschew the S/LS/7 and go for a Yukon Denali (or even a Suburban LTZ). These things are seriously awesome for long-distance driving and for passengers.
IDK. I rode in a last gen one. Wasn't that roomy at all. Felt like a regular car inside.
Quote from: Galaxy on December 05, 2014, 06:19:23 PM
You call this...
(http://www.gmc.com/content/dam/GMC/global/master/nscwebsite/en/home/Vehicles/Current_Vehicles/2015_Yukon_XL_Denali/Model_Overview/01_images/2015-gmc-yukon-xl-denali-mov-prograde-mm1-960x420-01.jpg)
... "not flashy?"
It is arguably more in your face then the Escalade.
The latest generation Denali is also flashy but not compared with the latest generation Escalade.
Quote from: veeman on December 05, 2014, 11:02:23 PM
The latest generation Denali is also flashy but not compared with the latest generation Escalade.
They look the same except for the grill and bumper.
Quote from: Galaxy on December 05, 2014, 11:44:58 PM
They look the same except for the grill and bumper.
It's all about the grill... hence the dinner plate LED insignia on the grill of the Mercedes.
Quote from: veeman on December 06, 2014, 12:39:45 AM
It's all about the grill... hence the dinner plate LED insignia on the grill of the Mercedes.
So if Mercedes had simply taken the Jeep Grand Cherokee and only exchanged the grill with one that features a bling LED star they would have had success? No.
Quote from: Galaxy on December 06, 2014, 01:27:50 AM
So if Mercedes had simply taken the Jeep Grand Cherokee and only exchanged the grill with one that features a bling LED star they would have had success? No.
No, but then again, Mercedes is not Cadillac.
On the other hand, there's this thing called the Sprinter...
FWIW, I think the JGC is a much classier vehicle than the ML350
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 06, 2014, 01:29:25 AM
No, but then again, Mercedes is not Cadillac.
On the other hand, there's this thing called the Sprinter...
The Sprinter gives street cred. It allows the S class driver to suggest to the world that he does not have to surrender and call some guy to fix a leaky faucet. People with a star on the head can repair almost anything.
Quote from: CALL_911 on December 06, 2014, 01:38:32 AM
FWIW, I think the JGC is a much classier vehicle than the ML350
I would go as far as to say its a better vehicle
And has been so for the life of the ML
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 06, 2014, 03:07:52 PM
I would go as far as to say its a better vehicle
And has been so for the life of the ML
I wouldn't disagree. The JGC is an awesome car
The first ML was truly awful
It really showed the strength of Mercedes' branding. People bought them by the boat load, they were absolute crap, and people kept going back for more. It was amazing.
Quote from: Galaxy on December 06, 2014, 01:27:50 AM
So if Mercedes had simply taken the Jeep Grand Cherokee and only exchanged the grill with one that features a bling LED star they would have had success? No.
Hey, it wouldn't be the ugliest thing they've made by a mile:
(http://cl.ly/Yqgt/Mb%20jc.jpg)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 06, 2014, 04:32:35 PM
The first ML was truly awful
It really showed the strength of Mercedes' branding. People bought them by the boat load, they were absolute crap, and people kept going back for more. It was amazing.
I'm sorry...which car was the choice to go to one of the most dangerous places in the world? Hint, not the Jeep Grand Racistname.
(http://pics.imcdb.org/0is48/mercbenzmclasstt5.2263.jpg)
Quote from: ifcar on December 06, 2014, 04:43:23 PM
Hey, it wouldn't be the ugliest thing they've made by a mile:
(http://cl.ly/Yqgt/Mb%20jc.jpg)
:lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 06, 2014, 04:32:35 PM
The first ML was truly awful
Yes, and a shame really, cause the first ML was the only one that I really liked from a styling pov. The others all look meh.
Quote from: Galaxy on December 06, 2014, 11:21:24 AM
The Sprinter gives street cred. It allows the S class driver to suggest to the world that he does not have to surrender and call some guy to fix a leaky faucet. People with a star on the head can repair almost anything.
I know now that every time i see some slick haired, pursed lipped, silk shirter driving a gold badged e-class, I say to myself; there goes a competent plumber.
Quote from: Galaxy on December 05, 2014, 06:19:23 PM
You call this...
(http://www.gmc.com/content/dam/GMC/global/master/nscwebsite/en/home/Vehicles/Current_Vehicles/2015_Yukon_XL_Denali/Model_Overview/01_images/2015-gmc-yukon-xl-denali-mov-prograde-mm1-960x420-01.jpg)
... "not flashy?"
It is arguably more in your face then the Escalade.
To your credit, Car and Driver just slammed the Denali for how crappy the interior was for its price.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-gmc-yukon-denali-4x4-tested-review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-gmc-yukon-denali-4x4-tested-review)
I think they found the world experts on snobbery. Asian chick's are the biggest brand whores on the planet.
Quote from: 565 on December 07, 2014, 09:56:35 AM
I think the found to world experts on snobbery. Asian chick's are the biggest brand whores on the planet.
No way man, Jewish girls love that shit
These Cadillac and GM guys are nuts (as in stupid). One of them some times back said that they had to go back to the drawing board with their next flagship model when Mercedes released their new S-Class. They were really surprised that Mercedes could build a car that good, they didn't thought Mercedes still had it .... WTF!!!!
Quote from: Raza on December 06, 2014, 06:29:17 PM
I'm sorry...which car was the choice to go to one of the most dangerous places in the world? Hint, not the Jeep Grand Racistname.
(http://pics.imcdb.org/0is48/mercbenzmclasstt5.2263.jpg)
1. That 'most dangerous places in the world' was movie fictional
2. Those cars were actually Jeep Grand Cherokees with a new cabin
:lol:
Quote from: AltinD on December 16, 2014, 02:16:48 AM
These Cadillac and GM guys are nuts (as in stupid). One of them some times back said that they had to go back to the drawing board with their next flagship model when Mercedes released their new S-Class. They were really surprised that Mercedes could build a car that good, they didn't thought Mercedes still had it .... WTF!!!!
Lol its no surprise at all. A real shame
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 06, 2014, 04:32:35 PM
The first ML was truly awful
It really showed the strength of Mercedes' branding. People bought them by the boat load, they were absolute crap, and people kept going back for more. It was amazing.
What didn't you like about it?
Quote from: Tave on December 16, 2014, 06:12:20 AM
What didn't you like about it?
They were the nadir of Benz's drop in quality. Least reliable/lowest quality Benzes to come here
Quote from: AltinD on December 16, 2014, 02:26:44 AM
1. That 'most dangerous places in the world' was movie fictional
2. Those cars were actually Jeep Grand Cherokees with a new cabin
:lol:
They used pre-production MLs in the exterior driving shots. Some of the interior shots were different vehicles.
Quote from: AltinD on December 16, 2014, 02:16:48 AM
These Cadillac and GM guys are nuts (as in stupid). One of them some times back said that they had to go back to the drawing board with their next flagship model when Mercedes released their new S-Class. They were really surprised that Mercedes could build a car that good, they didn't thought Mercedes still had it .... WTF!!!!
I doubt they actually went back to the "drawing board"
Also, Meercedes has an absolutely extreme amount of quality in the new interiors of the C class and up. Right now, they're killing everyone in the game.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 16, 2014, 08:06:50 AM
I doubt they actually went back to the "drawing board"
Also, Meercedes has an absolutely extreme amount of quality in the new interiors of the C class and up. Right now, they're killing everyone in the game.
What did you want them to say?
"We threw out all the napkins with our flagship sketches on them."
While it may be the truth, the other way sounds much more like they are actually working on an S class competitor.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on December 16, 2014, 08:15:50 AM
While it may be the truth, the other way sounds much more like they are actually working on an S class competitor.
Man if they are pouring resources into that dead segment they are so screwed
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 16, 2014, 06:15:18 AM
They were the nadir of Benz's drop in quality. Least reliable/lowest quality Benzes to come here
Compared to that model JGC? Those things are rolling electrical disasters waiting to happen.
Merc did a lot to improve the first gen ML's quality by the end of the model run. I'd say the ML430 was a superior vehicle to the JGC is every regard except off-road performance, which unfortunately no one seems to care about.
Quote from: Tave on December 17, 2014, 05:14:36 PM
Compared to that model JGC? Those things are rolling electrical disasters waiting to happen.
Merc did a lot to improve the first gen ML's quality by the end of the model run. I'd say the ML430 was a superior vehicle to the JGC is every regard except off-road performance, which unfortunately no one seems to care about.
Given the number of two-wheel-drive Grand Cherokees I see for sale, I'd say you are right.
Yeah...the first gen pre facelift was a disaster. Even the greatly improved post-facelift ML would have been my dead last pick given the competition at the time (the X5 and the Lexus RX). The running gear is solid, but it had electrical issues galore and like every Merc from 1996 to 2003 or 2004 suffered from embarrassing corrosion issues because of Merc's use of some supposedly environmentally friendly paint. Thanks, but no thanks.
But big LOL's comparing the second gen ML to the last gen JCG. I'd try riding in them for a minimum of 15 minutes before claiming that build quality, ride, NVH, etc are comparable. The ML blows the JCG out of the water.