Thinking of buying a Cayenne S

[Soup DeVille]

I consider Automobili Lamborghini as a distinct entity from Lamborghini Trattori.  Trattori was sucked into a larger conglomerate in the early 70s while Automobili was still independent. 

Yeah, you're right. Lamborghini Automobili was never handed off between larger companies like an unwanted orphan. Until 1974.

[cawimmer430]

Without exception, I want all parts to last forever. Obviously that doesn't happen, but when Car A has problems with parts before Cars B,C,D or E the problem and fault lies with Car A, not my expectations.

Same.

But wear and tear does happen on some parts. Car manufacturers in many cases don't even build the parts for their cars themselves anymore. There's an entire industry that supplies them with suspension components, rubber, software etc.

[cawimmer430]

Why don't I hear about these degrading material problems on Opels, Saabs, or Volvos?  Or even Euro Fords?  Do they not need to also adhere to EU regulations?

I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they have better suppliers. Keep in mind that car manufacturers these days build cars out of thousands of components from different manufacturers. In the end the car has the VW badge on the front but the headlights are from Osram, the rubber seals are from Kraiburg, the screws are made in China etc.

Maybe your Volkswagen experience was just bad. You were unlucky. Maybe the Jetta which was built on the same day as yours and was right ahead/behind your Jetta on the production line has been very reliable. Who knows.

Was your VW made in Mexico BTW? Does VW use local suppliers for parts or are they flown in from Europe?

[Soup DeVille]

Same.

But wear and tear does happen on some parts. Car manufacturers in many cases don't even build the parts for their cars themselves anymore. There's an entire industry that supplies them with suspension components, rubber, software etc.

Always been that way (guess what I've done most of my life); at least since the 1940s.  But the parts are made to manufacturer specification.

[Soup DeVille]

I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they have better suppliers. Keep in mind that car manufacturers these days build cars out of thousands of components from different manufacturers. In the end the car has the VW badge on the front but the headlights are from Osram, the rubber seals are from Kraiburg, the screws are made in China etc.

Maybe your Volkswagen experience was just bad. You were unlucky. Maybe the Jetta which was built on the same day as yours and was right ahead/behind your Jetta on the production line has been very reliable. Who knows.

Was your VW made in Mexico BTW? Does VW use local suppliers for parts or are they flown in from Europe?

Ford and GM Mexican plants have higher overall quality ratings than those in the US.

[MX793]

I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they have better suppliers. Keep in mind that car manufacturers these days build cars out of thousands of components from different manufacturers. In the end the car has the VW badge on the front but the headlights are from Osram, the rubber seals are from Kraiburg, the screws are made in China etc.

Suppliers build to VW's specifications and requirements.  I work for a design and integration company.  We design the product and perform the final assembly, but we actually fabricate few of the components in our products.  95% or more of the parts in our products come from somebody else.  Our suppliers build to our blueprints and requirements.  It's VW's responsibility in the end to use good parts from good suppliers, because it's VW's design and VW's badge on the grille.  If they're using bad parts, it's either because VW's designs and requirements are bad (intentional) or VW needs to have better oversight on their supply base.

Maybe your Volkswagen experience was just bad. You were unlucky. Maybe the Jetta which was built on the same day as yours and was right ahead/behind your Jetta on the production line has been very reliable. Who knows.

Was your VW made in Mexico BTW? Does VW use local suppliers for parts or are they flown in from Europe?

Not all quality issues can be traced to the factory floor.  Hence my previous statement about my faith in Germans knowing how to build a car correctly.  But a properly built car may still be a piece of junk if it's poorly designed.

All quality issues can be traced to one or both of the following root causes:
1.  Design defect
2.  Implementation (or manufacturing) defect

A design defect is anytime the item is built per the engineer's or designer's intentions, but it still doesn't work like it's supposed to.  Examples would be selecting incorrect components or materials for the intended function.
For example, if a car is supposed to be able to operate in -40 degree weather, and the engineer selected a fuel pump that stops working at -30 degrees, that's a design defect.  The engineer selected the wrong fuel pump for the application.  Or selecting a fuse that doesn't have enough ampacity for the amount of current in the circuit.  These defects may be latent.

An implementation, or manufacturing, defect is when something isn't built per the design.  These are the types of defects you get on the assembly line.  For example, a car radio doesn't work because somebody forgot to plug in the wire harness.  Or a tail light doesn't work because somebody forgot to install the light bulb.  Or somebody didn't tighten all of the lugnuts on the wheels.  The blueprints said that the radio had to be connected or the lightbulb to be there, or for the lugnuts to be tightened to X N-m, but somebody didn't follow the blueprints.  Manufacturing defects typically show up pretty early, or are caught through routine inspections, though some can be latent.

I don't believe any of the issues my car had could be traced to manufacturing defects.  I believe the majority were design defects, mostly the result of poor material selection.

But I wasn't talking about my car specifically when I said "why don't these other European cars have these same issues" in response to you suggesting that the degrading materials might be the fault of EU regulations.  Broken washer fluid lines are extremely common on Jettas.  Partly because VW uses a relatively hard and brittle, semi-rigid plastic tubing.  Partly because the way they route the line through the hood hinge puts a lot of stress on the material.  Both are bad design.  My Mustang uses a similar material for the hose (bad), but Ford routes theirs so that it doesn't get bent as much when you open the hood (good).  They acknowledged that the material isn't very flexible, so they avoid flexing it at the hinge so it lasts much longer.  My Toyota, and IIRC my Mazda, use(d) synthetic rubber hoses, which aren't brittle.

BMW radiators use plastic fittings that tend to fail after ~80K miles.  Nobody else seems to have this problem (probably because most everyone else uses metal...).  Bad material selection.  Bad design.

Biodegrading wire insulation?  Why do I only see Mercedes Benz in my google results when I type in "biodegradable wire"?  The only other company I see mentioned is Volvo, which apparently had an issue in the very early 80s.  If this was caused by EU legislation, why didn't every other Euro company have the same problems in the 90s (and possibly beyond) that Merc did?  If everybody was forced to use environmentally friendly wire, but only one company had widespread problems, then clearly that company screwed up because there was a better material out there that satisfied EU regulations and the design requirements of a car not falling apart after 10 years.  They chose the wrong material, and that's bad design.

[Eye of the Tiger]

GTFO. I'm irrational, not retarded.

*like*

[12,000 RPM]

I'm with MX793; there is no logical explanation for German car problems, aside from overdesign and rushing technology to market before it's ready.

[Soup DeVille]

I'm with MX793; there is no logical explanation for German car problems, aside from overdesign and rushing technology to market before it's ready.

I'm going with overdesign (or overly complicated designs) and insufficient environmental testing.

[Payman]

I'm going with overdesign (or overly complicated designs) and insufficient environmental testing.

This. They did it with the original Boxster 2.5 block/sleeve design, the Audi V8 timing chain with plastic guides, etc.

[12,000 RPM]

I'm going with overdesign (or overly complicated designs) and insufficient environmental testing.

I think we are saying the same thing

Sometimes it was overconfidence, like moving from the timing belt in front to a chain at the back. "What could possibly go wrong?"

Audi service position:

[cawimmer430]

Ford and GM Mexican plants have higher overall quality ratings than those in the US.

Interesting.

[cawimmer430]

@MX793

You explained it pretty well and with great and easy-to-understand detail. Thanks. 

Biodegrading wire insulation?  Why do I only see Mercedes Benz in my google results when I type in "biodegradable wire"?  The only other company I see mentioned is Volvo, which apparently had an issue in the very early 80s.  If this was caused by EU legislation, why didn't every other Euro company have the same problems in the 90s (and possibly beyond) that Merc did?  If everybody was forced to use environmentally friendly wire, but only one company had widespread problems, then clearly that company screwed up because there was a better material out there that satisfied EU regulations and the design requirements of a car not falling apart after 10 years.  They chose the wrong material, and that's bad design.

I'm positive the biodegradable wiring is found on most if not all European cars because it was an EU regulation going back to the 1980s. Then beginning in the 1990s there was a lot of investment from automakers to build their cars out of as many recycled and eco-friendly materials as possible.No doubt this also applied to their suppliers - maybe that's a reason why some of their components wear out quicker etc. Maybe eco-friendly rubber just doesn't last as long...

In any case my dad's '89 500SL is approaching 300,000 km and has had no electrical issues, and neither has his fully-loaded 2010 E350 CGI (W212) with a little over 200,000 km now. Both of them have biodegradable wiring. As far as I am aware, biodegradable wiring simple means the wires are easier to recycle, and should not actually fail within the car's lifetime of usage.

[2o6]

This is a bad idea, but also I tire of this forums bellyaching over (minor) decisions.


We all know it's got the potential to be a catastrophic hot mess - but it's clear that you want the damn thing, so you should just go ahead and buy and enjoy it.

[Lebowski]

Don't do it.

[Soup DeVille]

Do it.

[Payman]

 

[Eye of the Tiger]

VehiCROSS

[Payman]

Maybe I should check out a 10 yr old Range Rover. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

Maybe I should check out a 10 yr old Range Rover. 

Go for the classic, 1985.

[FoMoJo]

Maybe I should check out a 10 yr old Range Rover. 

If you start waffling you'll end up with nothing or else a Camry.

[Eye of the Tiger]

You do you.

[Lebowski]

Maybe I should check out a 10 yr old Range Rover. 

$15k gets you a lot more used CRV.

[Soup DeVille]

Maybe I should check out a 10 yr old Range Rover. 

Strange way to spell Land Cruiser.

[r0tor]

I remember day dreaming about buying a cayenne a few years ago and I think I recall the V8 having some significant reliability issues

[MrH]

It very much comes down to engineering culture differences between the Japanese and Germans, and the difference in material strategies.

VW and BMW both used PVC extensively in interiors and kept using it for a long time after most other OEMs moved on.  PVC degrades and becomes brittle over time a lot more compared to a lot of other plastics.  It's cheap and holds tight tolerances, but also squeaks.  There are pros and cons to each material.  So it's a lack of safety factor in the design + materials that degrade = broken interior switches etc

The design philosophy is totally different.  Germans don't believe in Occam's razor, they want the most "complete" design that best fits the criteria.  Japanese OEMs are incredibly risk averse and TPS dictates you really prove everything out to the n-th degree before implementing.  Is Toyota going to have the most innovative window switches?  No.  But they'll pretty much always work.

Luxury German OEMs are always pushing to some degree, even on things that we don't view as needing innovation like window switches.  There's a degree of risk to that.

[12,000 RPM]

They push when they don't have to. For example you look at the S65/S85 engines (the 4.0 V8/5.0 V10)... Honda showed the cheapest + easiest ways to hit 100HP/L+. No ionic knock sensors or ITBs needed. Oh, and all the engine bearings will last forever with good old 5W20 synthetic at like $5 a quart, not 10W60 you have to special order from Germany that doesn't protect the rod bearings anyway. So they obsess over weird shit that doesn't matter at the expense of basic shit $20K econocar makers have zero issues with.

I don't know when this changed because I don't think it used to be this way. I know with BMW things changed bigly with the E60/E90. Maybe they had some pent up technolust to express after the austerity of the late 90s. But it came at a price

[Lebowski]

Strange way to spell Land Cruiser.

They don't have a steep enough depreciation curve.

[MrH]

They push when they don't have to. For example you look at the S65/S85 engines (the 4.0 V8/5.0 V10)... Honda showed the cheapest + easiest ways to hit 100HP/L+. No ionic knock sensors or ITBs needed. Oh, and all the engine bearings will last forever with good old 5W20 synthetic at like $5 a quart, not 10W60 you have to special order from Germany that doesn't protect the rod bearings anyway. So they obsess over weird shit that doesn't matter at the expense of basic shit $20K econocar makers have zero issues with.

I don't know when this changed because I don't think it used to be this way. I know with BMW things changed bigly with the E60/E90. Maybe they had some pent up technolust to express after the austerity of the late 90s. But it came at a price

Honda is also one of the best engine manufacturers in the world.  It's not like they cracked the code and everyone can pull off what they do.

[Soup DeVille]

It very much comes down to engineering culture differences between the Japanese and Germans, and the difference in material strategies.

VW and BMW both used PVC extensively in interiors and kept using it for a long time after most other OEMs moved on.  PVC degrades and becomes brittle over time a lot more compared to a lot of other plastics.  It's cheap and holds tight tolerances, but also squeaks.  There are pros and cons to each material.  So it's a lack of safety factor in the design + materials that degrade = broken interior switches etc

The design philosophy is totally different.  Germans don't believe in Occam's razor, they want the most "complete" design that best fits the criteria.  Japanese OEMs are incredibly risk averse and TPS dictates you really prove everything out to the n-th degree before implementing.  Is Toyota going to have the most innovative window switches?  No.  But they'll pretty much always work.

Luxury German OEMs are always pushing to some degree, even on things that we don't view as needing innovation like window switches.  There's a degree of risk to that.

Oddly enough, the window switches in my Toyota are the only things that don't work properly.