Most people here know about the 20 people in the prime of their lives killed when a 2001 stretch Ford Excursion Limo failed to stop at an intersection in upstate NY for unknown reason (driver failure vs brake failure) and hit a parked Toyota Highlander. 17 passengers, driver, and two pedestrians killed. The news goes on an on about how the owner is a Pakistani immigrant who was a former FBI informant (which pisses me off because I don't see what his ethnicity or FBI informant past has anything to do with anything). The news doesn't go on and on about how the driver was a white man. Anyways, I always felt these super stretch limos were death traps but maybe they're not much more of death traps than extended vans which take old folks to church or prisoner families to jails to see their prisoner relatives.
The biggest problem is nobody uses seat belts in these things. The questionable chassis strength and dynamics take a complete backseat to hoards of passengers unbelted and becoming projectiles in a crash.
No one uses seat belts in party buses either though and usually not everyone in the bus dies in a crash unless it goes off a cliff although the lack of seat belt use is a very big factor I agree.
As I mentioned in the chat thread, these are often overbooked compared to what they are designed and licensed for.
The vehicle in question was probably built as a 12 passenger vehicle, and neither the chassis nor the tires were ever rated for the weight it was carrying; much less being safe and licensed for 17.
And yes, the driver shares blame, but its likely he didn't know about the safety record or requirements for the vehicle (most drivers of these don't)
All I know is I would not want to die by being in a projectile tube of 16 other bodies.
In 2011 there was a Chinatown bus being driven erratically and at a high rate of speed which flipped on its side and got cut in half by a metal sign pole. About half the passengers died, many from decapitation. If it was a stretch limo, probably everyone on board would be dead.
https://nypost.com/2018/10/09/dot-ordered-limo-kept-off-road-before-deadly-crash/
"The vehicle was subject to inspections, and the owner was warned not to operate the vehicle," DOT spokesman Joseph Morrissey said in a statement. "The vehicle was placed out of service."
Morrissey's comments countered claims by Prestige Limousine earlier in the day that all the problems with the customized 2001 Ford Excursion had been fixed ahead of Saturday's crash — with the DOT spokesman calling the assertion "categorically false."
Meanwhile, it surfaced that Prestige tried to unload the limo just two days before the wreck that killed 20 — and more disturbing details on the hunk of junk's dangerous condition were reported.
A Craigslist posting dated Thursday offered the customized 2001 Ford Excursion stretch limo for sale for just $9,000.
I was at a stop light today, and a stretch Q7 limo pulled up beside me. Two things were readily apparent; the large rust stain running down the A-pillar onto the body, and the noticeable, if not slight, concave roofline.
No way I'd ever set foot in one of those...what abysmal build quality.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 10, 2018, 09:53:55 AM
As I mentioned in the chat thread, these are often overbooked compared to what they are designed and licensed for.
The vehicle in question was probably built as a 12 passenger vehicle, and neither the chassis nor the tires were ever rated for the weight it was carrying; much less being safe and licensed for 17.
And yes, the driver shares blame, but its likely he didn't know about the safety record or requirements for the vehicle (most drivers of these don't)
Maybe the owner is a dirtbag, maybe he is not. I don't know. Maybe the driver was drunk and driving crazy or maybe it was complete brake failure. I don't know. The media loves to start the story with the very pertinent info that the owner is a brown man. Then they come back to it in the middle of the story. Then they come back to it at the end ofthe story. I'm sure they're trying to interview any airplane passenger women who have flown with him to see if he's molested them. I mean, he is a dirty fucking brown guy, isn't he.
That inspection document that was posted has one vehicle in the fleet as having ABS light on. When a 2001 Excursion gets low on brake fluid, it turns on the ABS and Brake lights in the dash.
When they hack a vehicle in half to stretch it, the brake lines to the rear wheels, along with ABS system wiring have to be extended. Typically, the people that do this kind of work are pretty much not technicians, they're just people off the street who were trained to do a specific job. Add in cheap Chinese parts and it's a real concern.
In addition to that, the people that maintain these vehicles are pretty much the same. Low pay, minimum knowledge, not usually a lot of critical thinking types.
The odds are that the vehicle's brakes failed for some reason related to these things.
That the owner is Pakistani has no real bearing on the issue.
Quote from: veeman on October 10, 2018, 10:07:53 AM
Maybe the owner is a dirtbag, maybe he is not. I don't know. Maybe the driver was drunk and driving crazy or maybe it was complete brake failure. I don't know. The media loves to start the story with the very pertinent info that the owner is a brown man. Then they come back to it in the middle of the story. Then they come back to it at the end ofthe story. I'm sure they're trying to interview any airplane passenger women who have flown with him to see if he's molested them. I mean, he is a dirty fucking brown guy, isn't he.
That he was an FBI informant means he was likely a sleezebag. That he's fled the country means he's a fugitive. I don't know what color he is, I've never heard it mentioned.
Guessing that he's brown is playing the odds maybe, but with the number of whites and blacks converting to some form of radicalism and finding themselves in the news, its far from certain.
Quote from: veeman on October 10, 2018, 10:07:53 AM
Maybe the owner is a dirtbag, maybe he is not. I don't know. Maybe the driver was drunk and driving crazy or maybe it was complete brake failure. I don't know. The media loves to start the story with the very pertinent info that the owner is a brown man. Then they come back to it in the middle of the story. Then they come back to it at the end ofthe story. I'm sure they're trying to interview any airplane passenger women who have flown with him to see if he's molested them. I mean, he is a dirty fucking brown guy, isn't he.
Maybe move this thread to politics or General Talk if all you care to discuss is the media portrayal of the brown guy. Because you're only exacerbating that problem.
Quote from: veeman on October 10, 2018, 09:50:14 AM
No one uses seat belts in party buses either though and usually not everyone in the bus dies in a crash unless it goes off a cliff although the lack of seat belt use is a very big factor I agree.
I think the seating arrangement has a lot to do with it. Most party buses are similar to limos AFAIK, but I'm sure regular buses are a lot safer than limos since you stay confined within the seats more instead of flying 20 feet to the front of the tube.
Quote from: veeman on October 10, 2018, 10:07:53 AM
Maybe the owner is a dirtbag, maybe he is not. I don't know. Maybe the driver was drunk and driving crazy or maybe it was complete brake failure. I don't know. The media loves to start the story with the very pertinent info that the owner is a brown man. Then they come back to it in the middle of the story. Then they come back to it at the end ofthe story. I'm sure they're trying to interview any airplane passenger women who have flown with him to see if he's molested them. I mean, he is a dirty fucking brown guy, isn't he.
There are many Pakistani's who could pass for European white FWIW...
Quote from: shp4man on October 10, 2018, 10:09:15 AM
That inspection document that was posted has one vehicle in the fleet as having ABS light on. When a 2001 Excursion gets low on brake fluid, it turns on the ABS and Brake lights in the dash.
When they hack a vehicle in half to stretch it, the brake lines to the rear wheels, along with ABS system wiring have to be extended. Typically, the people that do this kind of work are pretty much not technicians, they're just people off the street who were trained to do a specific job. Add in cheap Chinese parts and it's a real concern.
In addition to that, the people that maintain these vehicles are pretty much the same. Low pay, minimum knowledge, not usually a lot of critical thinking types.
The odds are that the vehicle's brakes failed for some reason related to these things.
That the owner is Pakistani has no real bearing on the issue.
In 2001-2 I was seriously considering starting my own limo company. Amongst other things I learned was that build quality varies greatly. An older established firm like OHE, Chicago Armor or Miller-Meteor makes good, well engineered cars. Firms with names like Star, Krystal, Tiffany or Premier don't
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 10, 2018, 10:28:37 AM
In 2001-2 I was seriously considering starting my own limo company. Amongst other things I learned was that build quality varies greatly. An older established firm like OHE, Chicago Armor or Miller-Meteor makes good, well engineered cars. Firms with names like Star, Krystal, Tiffany or Premier don't
What stopped you from pursuing? Seems like a cash cow.
Quote from: veeman on October 10, 2018, 10:33:42 AM
What stopped you from pursuing? Seems like a cash cow.
I worked as an ironworker out of high school. In '97, when I went back to school to get my degree, I had a CDL class A, and was able to get a weekend job as a limo driver. The company I worked for was very old school, with an elite corporate and celebrity clientele- and funerals. If I could have gotten into that side of the business, I would have.
But that business model died, and was replaced by the party business, which of course had always been there, but got a lot bigger after 9/11 reset everybody's travel priorities. It was far too seedy and corrupt for me to feel like it was a good idea.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 10, 2018, 10:39:30 AM
I worked as an ironworker out of high school. In '97, when I went back to school to get my degree, I had a CDL class A, and was able to get a weekend job as a limo driver. The company I worked for was very old school, with an elite corporate and celebrity clientele- and funerals. If I could have gotten into that side of the business, I would have.
But that business model died, and was replaced by the party business, which of course had always been there, but got a lot bigger after 9/11 reset everybody's travel priorities. It was far too seedy and corrupt for me to feel like it was a good idea.
We use a local "limo" service at work a lot (our Japanese overlords don't seem to ever want to drive themselves).
I put limo in quotes because I don't think I have ever seen them driving a limo (even though limo is in their name). They still have a few old Lincoln towncars but I see mostly new, standard, off the lot SUV's (Suburbans I think).
Quote from: SJ_GTI on October 10, 2018, 12:00:54 PM
We use a local "limo" service at work a lot (our Japanese overlords don't seem to ever want to drive themselves).
I put limo in quotes because I don't think I have ever seen them driving a limo (even though limo is in their name). They still have a few old Lincoln towncars but I see mostly new, standard, off the lot SUV's (Suburbans I think).
Livery service: but most call them limo companies because that's an odd word that makes people confused.
Japanese businessmen were some of my favorite clients. Kept a tight schedule, were always polite, and no matter how drunk they got, never threw up or passed out.