Due to recent (extremely) frustrating events I won't go into here, I've decided it's about time for the ES and I to part ways. That said, I still really like the ES as a car and it is proving difficult to find a suitable replacement that isn't another ES. So, I pose the question:
For someone who actually likes the ES, what is a suitable replacement?
You know I'm going to do pretty much whatever the hell I want to anyway regardless of what advice is given, but since I hope to start car shopping again within the month, I am quite interested in what kind of cars you guys think would be worth looking at. Price range is $9k, possibly a little higher but I'm trying not to be overly optimistic at this point.
Requirements:
-Real seating for four - This eliminates most sporty coupes that have back-seats in name only. I like being able to take a few people somewhere with me. I have very little interest in a tiny car, regardless of how fun it might be.
-200+hp - No sense in downgrading if I don't have to.
-Leather seating - Same logic as above, I like leather, don't care for cloth, see no reason to compromise on that.
-Mostly reliable - I managed to pick poorly among the ESes available, but I do want something that isn't a total money pit. Yes, this means the E39, for example, is not a great choice (I've done research on them and although I love the look and the idea of one, they are expensive to keep running according to the vast majority of sources).
-Well built - I know this means different things to different people, but I want something that feels solid and well-made. There are a whole lot of cars that fit this criteria, but in my meager price range, there are also way too many suggestions that don't. I'm not interested in anything too cheaply made.
Alright, I know those are high criteria for very little money, but what have you got?
'03 - '07 Accord V6 sedan
'07 - '08 Camry SE V6
That is all.
Accord over Camry, Camrys IMO feel sloppy.
Possibly a used TSX or TL.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 24, 2013, 12:11:33 AM
'03 - '07 Accord V6 sedan
'07 - '08 Camry SE V6
That is all.
Neither are bad choices. Problems: Accord has transmission issues. Camry SEs with desired features are almost impossible to find.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 24, 2013, 12:16:45 AM
Accord over Camry, Camrys IMO feel sloppy.
Possibly a used TSX or TL.
Camry SE (and only SE) is surprisingly decent. Accord is quite decent too. Transmission and availability problems remain. Used TSX and TL are still quite new overall, so they are very difficult to find in the price range with any reasonable level of mileage. 03 and earlier TLs are quite affordable, but unattractive and also had the bad transmission, and having had two different friends with Acuras of that generation that had transmissions fail, I'm not dealing with that mess. I could be all about an 04 TL, but that price range is pretty low to find one of those. I'm ambivalent about the TSX, but it's definitely worth considering if it creeps into the price range.
G35 sedan? My brother's G has been mechanically solid, though the interior is kinda falling apart.
Pretty much any car with an A/T is a gamble with more than ~100,000 miles IMO. FWIW, lots of '03 - '07 Accords sedans were sold in EX-L trim with the I-4 and 5MT (and the '06 - '07 could be had with V6 and 6MT but they're rare).
The problem with buying a more premium older and/or higher mileage car is the risk of ginormous repair bills (which sounds like you might have run into with the ES).
Cadillac STS?
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2013&vehicleStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&minPrice=7000&listingId=348367941&listingIndex=7&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2013&vehicleStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&minPrice=7000&listingId=348367941&listingIndex=7&Log=0)
Passat?
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2008&vehicleStyleCodes=SEDAN&modelCode1=PASS&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&makeCode1=VOLKS&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=SEDAN&mmt=%5BVOLKS%5BPASS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&minPrice=7000&listingId=341702405&listingIndex=4&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2008&vehicleStyleCodes=SEDAN&modelCode1=PASS&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&makeCode1=VOLKS&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=SEDAN&mmt=%5BVOLKS%5BPASS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&minPrice=7000&listingId=341702405&listingIndex=4&Log=0)
Or a Ford Fusion. Or an Accord.
Quote from: Vinsanity on July 24, 2013, 12:38:31 AM
G35 sedan? My brother's G has been mechanically solid, though the interior is kinda falling apart.
A good idea. My concern with them is definitely the interior. That's what killed the I35 when I was looking at the ES, the interiors felt a definite step below and weren't holding up too well. I've seen similar issues with the G35 as well, but I think they'd definitely be worth a look.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 24, 2013, 12:42:14 AM
Pretty much any car with an A/T is a gamble with more than ~100,000 miles IMO. FWIW, lots of '03 - '07 Accords sedans were sold in EX-L trim with the I-4 and 5MT (and the '06 - '07 could be had with V6 and 6MT but they're rare).
The problem with buying a more premium older and/or higher mileage car is the risk of ginormous repair bills (which sounds like you might have run into with the ES).
Agree generally, but some are a gamble in the sense of "something could go wrong eventually" and some are a gamble in the sense of "if you own an 98-02 Accord/99-03 TL you WILL need a new transmission at 100k". I don't mind there being risk of course, but the Camry was still shifting smooth at almost 160k and the ES shifts great at 110k, so I do expect some decent longevity.
The ES has been pretty solid mechanically, but there is some weird electrical issue going on that I have spent countless hours of my own time and several hundred dollars worth of mechanics' diagnostic time trying to figure out and we're still not entirely sure what's going on. On top of that, the car is originally from New York and although there's no body rust, the bolts on the bottom are all seized solid with rust and any minor job down there ends up involving extra hours and money worth of work to drill out the sheared bolts and fix things. The car isn't unreliable so much because of its age as it is its origins and that's my fault. I know things will come up with older cars and I don't expect miracles, but some are certainly more reliable than others when it comes to unexpected/unusual repairs. The ES hasn't been so much just a money issue as it has a time and annoyance issue and I'm just tired of thinking I've finally fixed a problem only to have it bite me in the ass again a few weeks later (and again, and again). I basically have a late 90s/early 00s BMW's level of maintenance/work headache right now without the occasional driving fun.
Quote from: hotrodalex on July 24, 2013, 12:51:56 AM
Cadillac STS?
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2013&vehicleStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&minPrice=7000&listingId=348367941&listingIndex=7&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2013&vehicleStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=HATCH%2CSEDAN%2CWAGON&minPrice=7000&listingId=348367941&listingIndex=7&Log=0)
:shakesfist: How old do you think I am?
Quote
Passat?
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2008&vehicleStyleCodes=SEDAN&modelCode1=PASS&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&makeCode1=VOLKS&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=SEDAN&mmt=%5BVOLKS%5BPASS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&minPrice=7000&listingId=341702405&listingIndex=4&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=41005&endYear=2008&vehicleStyleCodes=SEDAN&modelCode1=PASS&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=2000&makeCode1=VOLKS&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=11000&bodyStyleCodes=SEDAN&mmt=%5BVOLKS%5BPASS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&minPrice=7000&listingId=341702405&listingIndex=4&Log=0)
Or a Ford Fusion. Or an Accord.
I like the Passat idea a lot actually. Need to look into that. I don't mind the Fusion but it's a far cry from the ES/G/etc. level of refinement. The Accords I can afford have the transmission concern addressed above, but not a bad idea either.
Since you like the ES but just had bad luck with one, what's wrong with going for another?
Also, you were mentioning "GAH old person car" for the STS posted earlier -- your criteria just happen to bring in a lot of big, plush cars that are also popular with the older crowd. Embrace it. Accordingly, some alternatives (I ran the search up to $11,000 for the listed price):
2005 Buick LaCrosse CXL (3.8-liter):
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/12996/K19119A/01.jpg)
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/12996/K19119A/06.jpg)
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=121977751&listingRecNum=11&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1 (http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=121977751&listingRecNum=11&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1)
2005 LaCrosse CXS (3.6-liter):
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/201080/11284/02.jpg)
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=112955511&listingRecNum=2&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1 (http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=112955511&listingRecNum=2&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1)
2002 Toyota Avalon XL:
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/12964/22311A/01.jpg)
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/12964/22311A/13.jpg)
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=121610908&listingRecNum=13&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1 (http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=121610908&listingRecNum=13&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1)
2006 Nissan Maxima SL:
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/191895/4563510/01.jpg)
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/191895/4563510/15.jpg)
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=121037703&listingRecNum=3&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D21445%26mkId%3D20077%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D21445%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2002%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20077%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1 (http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=121037703&listingRecNum=3&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D21445%26mkId%3D20077%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D21445%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2002%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20077%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1)
2008 Hyundai Azera Limited:
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/150323/8506AW/03.jpg)
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=105358035&listingRecNum=0&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1 (http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=105358035&listingRecNum=0&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1)
Or a cheaper 2007 Azera (higher miles):
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/150087/7A227187/06.jpg)
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/150087/7A227187/09.jpg)
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=118928351&listingRecNum=12&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1 (http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=118928351&listingRecNum=12&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20666%26alMdId%3D21279%26alMdId%3D20658%26alMdId%3D21355%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20064%26mkId%3D20019%26mkId%3D20088%26mkId%3D20006%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20666%26mdId%3D21279%26mdId%3D20658%26mdId%3D21355%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D4-4-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2001%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20064%26alMkId%3D20019%26alMkId%3D20088%26alMkId%3D20006%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1)
2008 Ford Taurus Limited:
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/193420/SG3253/01.jpg)
(http://www.cstatic-images.com/supersized/DMI/193420/SG3253/05.jpg)
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=111313597&listingRecNum=1&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20015%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D22164%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2007%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1 (http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=111313597&listingRecNum=1&criteria=prMx%3D11000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D22164%26mkId%3D20015%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D22164%26rd%3D150%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice-pseudoYear%26zc%3D72103%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26yrMn%3D2007%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26isDealerGrouping%3Dfalse%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D250%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national&listType=1)
Another I searched but didn't find anything on was the Infiniti I35, but that may vary by time.
I think the Avalon & I35 are the best bangs for your buck in that segment. I think the old FWD 3.5 RL might be up your alley too.
I wouldn't get a V6 AT Honda product.
The old RL is unrelated. Its engine goes front to back and it has a totally different transmission.
Automatic or manual?
Either way, even though we all gave Sporty shit for it, Nissan Maxima.
Accord is a good idea, but I wouldn't buy a V6 automatic Honda.
Camry is so ugh, but since you already had a Camry, it's worth a look. You could get a newer model, with hopefully more interesting looks than your boring-even-for-its-time ES.
Of those, my top choice would be the Maxima though.
Yeah, forgot the Maxima. Decent cars. The '03 - '06 were available with 6MT but probably hard to find.
I'd certainly agree with those who suggested Infiniti G.
What about a V6 Mazda 6? the zoom zoom one was great, its replacement a bit less so.
3.0 V6 Fusion or Milan or Zephyr/MKZ would also be a good bet.
How about a Volvo S60?
In time honoured tradition, of course, having set out your criteria and we've generally given suggestions that more or less match, you are perfectly entitled to go and buy an Abarth 500 or a Miata or something which is no way close to what you set out for us to advise upon!
Sell me your headlights?
Quote from: GoCougs on July 24, 2013, 11:55:39 AM
Yeah, forgot the Maxima. Decent cars. The '03 - '06 were available with 6MT but probably hard to find.
That's the tooth model, right? I actually drove a 6 speed one of those. Pretty decent to drive. Better clutch than on the 350Z, actually.
Quote from: Raza on July 24, 2013, 03:16:42 PM
That's the tooth model, right? I actually drove a 6 speed one of those. Pretty decent to drive. Better clutch than on the 350Z, actually.
I kind of like them, odd looks and all. The only problem is I can't help but think everyone who drives that model Maxima wears a baseball cap to the side and has a tattoo on their body visualizing some bizarre sex act they claim to be the masters of, Greg included.
Rx8!
I vote for a 2003 or so GS300.
G35 is a sweet choice, though.
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=GS300&showcaseOwnerId=68353&startYear=1981&makeCode1=LEXUS&searchRadius=0&maxPrice=12000&mmt=%5BLEXUS%5BGS300%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=350389892&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=GS300&showcaseOwnerId=68353&startYear=1981&makeCode1=LEXUS&searchRadius=0&maxPrice=12000&mmt=%5BLEXUS%5BGS300%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=350389892&Log=0)
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=GS300&showcaseOwnerId=68353&startYear=1981&makeCode1=LEXUS&searchRadius=0&maxPrice=12000&mmt=%5BLEXUS%5BGS300%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=334311903&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=GS300&showcaseOwnerId=68353&startYear=1981&makeCode1=LEXUS&searchRadius=0&maxPrice=12000&mmt=%5BLEXUS%5BGS300%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=334311903&Log=0)
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=G35&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=1981&makeCode1=INFIN&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=12000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BINFIN%5BG35%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=349753707&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=G35&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=1981&makeCode1=INFIN&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=12000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BINFIN%5BG35%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=349753707&Log=0)
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=G35&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=1981&makeCode1=INFIN&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=12000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BINFIN%5BG35%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=346931037&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=G35&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=1981&makeCode1=INFIN&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=12000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BINFIN%5BG35%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=346931037&Log=0)
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=G35&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=1981&makeCode1=INFIN&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=12000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BINFIN%5BG35%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=345091532&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=72653&endYear=2014&inGalleryView=true&modelCode1=G35&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=1981&makeCode1=INFIN&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=12000&showcaseListingId=0&mmt=%5BINFIN%5BG35%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=345091532&Log=0)
You shouldn't have trouble negotiating down to around $9-10k.
Lincoln Town Car
Quote from: Raza on July 24, 2013, 03:16:42 PM
That's the tooth model, right? I actually drove a 6 speed one of those. Pretty decent to drive. Better clutch than on the 350Z, actually.
I almost bought one
I'll try to do an all encompassing reply.
iffy- I've thought about that and in a lot of ways it would make life easy since I could just plug and play the stuff I already put in this car into another ES, but this one has also pissed me off enough that I have a little bit of irrational dislike for the ES overall right now. I will probably end up looking at some though. I don't care for the LaCrosse based off looks, but I'm sure it would be a nice car for the money. The Avalon is a similar issue, I just don't like it, but it's a nice car, hits all my requirements, and I should probably at least test drive one. My concern with the Maxima is interior quality. For those that remember, I looked at the generation of Maxima prior to the one you posted when I was shopping for the ES and was appalled at how terribly their interiors hold up. Plastics break, that silver finish they use peels off, the vinyl on the sides and bolsters of the seats crack, and vents were frequently broken. They cheaped out on the interior big time and it showed. I don't know if the newer ones are as bad or not so I should at least look at one, but I'm a little skeptical after the last go around with the Maximas. They drive well though. I hadn't even thought of the Azera, I'll have to look at it a little. It's not pretty, but it does appear to be a nice car overall. Ditto for the Taurus. I looked at I35s last time and eliminated them definitively. Handles worse than the Maxima with an interior that's only marginally better.
12,000- I don't love the looks of the RL either but it's definitely one of the most feature laden cars in that price range. That's both a pro and a con since I don't know how many of those features are things that would increase repair bills, but I would like to look at an RL in person.
Raza- I strongly prefer automatic, but I did see a Mazda 6 manual that made me wonder if I should consider going manual. I don't get to drive anywhere fun anymore so a manual is really just more work, but I'm not 100% opposed to it like I have been in the past. Maxima- See above, but might look at one. Accord- it'd have to be manual and I'm not sure like the Accord enough to bother with that. Camry- I would consider an SE of the generation of that XLE I drove for a while, but I'm not super thrilled about the idea. I actually like the way the ES looks because it held up well- not flashy by any means but it still looks classy/relatively expensive even 14 years later.
Colin- I'm intrigued by the Mazda 6. There are some that are available in the price range and although they don't look quite as refined as a lot of the other options, there are some that hit the features requirements and I would definitely be willing to give one a chance if I can find one to test drive. Haven't looked at the Fusions or Zephyr/MKZ but I should. I had a loaded Fusion rental of that generation once and although it's a far cry from the Lexus et. al. on interior quality, it was a nice enough car overall. A Lincoln version might be nicer-enough to be worth considering. Volvo S60 I ruled out last time around due to some reliability concern I no longer remember and general dissatisfaction with the interior. :lol: I do solemnly swear I will not buy a Miata or an Abarth 500. I am impressed with the suggestions though, there are several options I hadn't considered that are worth looking at. Whoever mentioned the Passat earlier deserves kudos because I'm now quite intrigued by it as well and snooped around one parked in one of the clinic parking lots today.
Clay- If I get something without HIDs that is workable with the kit I have I'll probably throw it in there, but I can keep you posted since I'm pretty sure the majority of these choices wouldn't work with what I have now.
Nomis- Although I prefer burning steady commodities of oil to electronic demons that can't be exorcised (or even found, apparently), I don't think the RX8 is the best fit for me. :lol:
CALL_911- I really like that white GS a lot, except for the ridiculously excessive wood on the dash of that one. The GS is probably my favorite option as a concept for a replacement so far, but they are a bit harder to find and I haven't even driven one yet so I have no idea if it will actually be a consideration or if I just like the idea of one. I am pretty confident I won't like the G35's interior the more I look at pictures of it, but I will definitely look at one.
MX793- I've actually driven one once and dear god no. It'd be the perfect car to be buried in though, very plush and they'd probably drive my corpse to the funeral in one anyway.
S2000 is obviously the correct choice here.
Quote from: Submariner on July 24, 2013, 03:26:16 PM
I kind of like them, odd looks and all. The only problem is I can't help but think everyone who drives that model Maxima wears a baseball cap to the side and has a tattoo on their body visualizing some bizarre sex act they claim to be the masters of, Greg included.
That generation? Funny. I always picture the drivers as unimaginatively dressed white American middle class men. Greg included.
RX-8 can fit a 6 footer relatively comfortably in the back, though.
Jetta V, Passat.
I don't like the Lacrosse; it feels old-school. The tried-and-true 3.8L is good enough, I guess. The 3.6L likes stretching timing chains.
Nissans don't age well, and I hear the G has the potential to be a shitshow.
Anything that isn't a current generation Hyundai (and even then, IDK) IMO feels like trash. Especially used. I don't like the Azera. Feels really cheap inside and out.
Taurus is really nice, but do not expect it to be a good handler. The Five Hundred is also nice. (Stay away from the CVT)
Camry feels like trash inside.
MKZ is a laughable attempt at a luxury car. It's a Fusion, but only a little bit quieter, and with a hideous interior and like a few more soft touch plastics (that look like shit)
Shot in the Dark
Chrysler 300
VW Jetta V (IMO it feels as nice as the cars you're looking at - steering and handling are tight and the interior is well put together. 2.5L isn't great, but it'll get the job done)
Passat - Like the Jetta but bigger and nicer. Looked long and hard at one.
I'm not sure how pricing is where you're at, but just from the dealer I work at (and we're overpriced)
http://www.marhofer.com/details.cfm?searchvkid=1464774&cftoken=c06cf1646933d2e8-0F309C92-91A9-0FCD-B3DFAAD50A681259&cfid=89631207 (http://www.marhofer.com/details.cfm?searchvkid=1464774&cftoken=c06cf1646933d2e8-0F309C92-91A9-0FCD-B3DFAAD50A681259&cfid=89631207)
http://www.marhofer.com/details.cfm?searchvkid=1495105&cftoken=c06cf1646933d2e8-0F309C92-91A9-0FCD-B3DFAAD50A681259&cfid=89631207 (http://www.marhofer.com/details.cfm?searchvkid=1495105&cftoken=c06cf1646933d2e8-0F309C92-91A9-0FCD-B3DFAAD50A681259&cfid=89631207)
Also, try the Saturn Aura. It's IMO the best out of the GM Epsilon I cars. Wayy nicer inside than the Malibu, and has a nicer heavier weight about the steering.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 24, 2013, 10:56:17 PM
Jetta V, Passat.
I don't like the Lacrosse; it feels old-school. The tried-and-true 3.8L is good enough, I guess. The 3.6L likes stretching timing chains.
Nissans don't age well, and I hear the G has the potential to be a shitshow.
Anything that isn't a current generation Hyundai (and even then, IDK) IMO feels like trash. Especially used. I don't like the Azera. Feels really cheap inside and out.
Taurus is really nice, but do not expect it to be a good handler. The Five Hundred is also nice. (Stay away from the CVT)
Camry feels like trash inside.
MKZ is a laughable attempt at a luxury car. It's a Fusion, but only a little bit quieter, and with a hideous interior and like a few more soft touch plastics (that look like shit)
Shot in the Dark
Chrysler 300
VW Jetta V (IMO it feels as nice as the cars you're looking at - steering and handling are tight and the interior is well put together. 2.5L isn't great, but it'll get the job done)
That's too bad about the MKZ. The Fusion is an "okay" car all around. I didn't love it, didn't hate it. It was nice I suppose, but never really felt nice to me. The loaded out Impala rental felt nicer than the Fusion, and it really shouldn't have. I am so ambivalent towards the Fusion that it's almost a mark in its favor because I don't find it interesting enough to find anything about it objectionable.
I'd be surprised if 300s are in my range, but I don't really like them any way. Not a bad idea though, it'd definitely hit all the criteria. I hadn't thought of the Aura at all (mostly because I forgot it ever existed) but I'll see if there are any in the range/areas I'm looking.
I haven't looked at the Jetta because it's a bit smaller than I think I want, but I'm eager to go test drive a Passat when I get back. It's not quite as fancy as the GS or some of the other options listed, but I could get a bit newer car and at least from pictures, they appear to be built well enough that they're holding up better than a lot of the other options.
Quote
Passat - Like the Jetta but bigger and nicer. Looked long and hard at one.
I'll let that one slide this time. ;)
Quote from: 2o6 on July 25, 2013, 12:06:24 AM
I'm not sure how pricing is where you're at, but just from the dealer I work at (and we're overpriced)
http://www.marhofer.com/details.cfm?searchvkid=1464774&cftoken=c06cf1646933d2e8-0F309C92-91A9-0FCD-B3DFAAD50A681259&cfid=89631207 (http://www.marhofer.com/details.cfm?searchvkid=1464774&cftoken=c06cf1646933d2e8-0F309C92-91A9-0FCD-B3DFAAD50A681259&cfid=89631207)
http://www.marhofer.com/details.cfm?searchvkid=1495105&cftoken=c06cf1646933d2e8-0F309C92-91A9-0FCD-B3DFAAD50A681259&cfid=89631207 (http://www.marhofer.com/details.cfm?searchvkid=1495105&cftoken=c06cf1646933d2e8-0F309C92-91A9-0FCD-B3DFAAD50A681259&cfid=89631207)
Also, try the Saturn Aura. It's IMO the best out of the GM Epsilon I cars. Wayy nicer inside than the Malibu, and has a nicer heavier weight about the steering.
Pricing in Little Rock is pretty bad. The used car market here is apparently quite active and things sell for way more than they should. Hopefully that will work in my favor on the ES, but I doubt I'll buy anything local. I flew to Dallas to buy the ES and I'll certainly consider traveling again to buy the next car. Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, and Orlando/Miami are pretty good places to center searches because they're large markets, get little to no snow (I'm not going to touch anything with any sort of even simple surface rust this time around), and if you check Carfax reports and look things over really well in Houston and Miami, you can mostly avoid hurricane/flood cars. California might not be a bad option either, but I haven't looked into any searches in the LA/west coast area.
The Jetta is smaller but nearly as roomy as that generation of Passat, and it doesn't have a stereotypical small-car feel to drive. It's at least worth a test-sit.
I am somewhat surprised to learn that you preferred a loaded Impala to a Fusion/Milan/MKZ ...... with the 3 litre engine, these things go well, steer well, are nicely finished inside, and reasonably roomy.
I did quite like the 500/Taurus/Montego/Sable cars, too. They are extremely roomy, partly because they are BIG, but again, they drive well and are well enough finished.
I would also say G. I knew a guy who had 208000 miles on his auto G sedan and he said it was great. I do hear the VQ's can have oil problems, but I'm not sure how common those are.
Another ES? Guess I still don't understand dropping it, but it sounds like it suits your needs the best.
Quote from: thewizard16 on July 25, 2013, 02:06:18 AM
I haven't looked at the Jetta because it's a bit smaller than I think I want, but I'm eager to go test drive a Passat when I get back.
The Jetta V is surprisingly roomy for its size. It does compare favorably to a lot of its smaller contemporary midsizers.
My ES? Too boring. I need another car.
Quote from: CJ on July 25, 2013, 08:21:08 AM
My ES? Too boring. I need another car.
Like a Volvo? #FeelTheExcitement!
ES-F
oh my, a chill just ran down my back thinking of that.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 25, 2013, 09:24:02 AM
ES-F
oh my, a chill just ran down my back thinking of that.
You might be on to something
The Bonneville SSEi of Lexuses
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 25, 2013, 04:56:01 PM
You might be on to something
The Bonneville SSEi of Lexuses
Twin Turbo V6....AWD.....
Okay Wiz, I've found your new car and it's this week's featured shed! :ohyeah:
http://www.carspin.net/index.php?topic=11546.1890 (http://www.carspin.net/index.php?topic=11546.1890)
Quote from: 2o6 on July 25, 2013, 05:45:04 PM
Twin Turbo V6....AWD.....
Naw just the Toyota 4.6 V8 absolutely torturing the front wheels :lol:
Lexus IS?
Oh, since I was looking, Acura TSX. Although I don't know how roomy they are.
Quote from: Madman on July 28, 2013, 11:26:37 PM
Okay Wiz, I've found your new car and it's this week's featured shed! :ohyeah:
http://www.carspin.net/index.php?topic=11546.1890 (http://www.carspin.net/index.php?topic=11546.1890)
MEH! UNRELIABLE! :thumbsup:
Quote from: MrH on July 25, 2013, 07:25:22 AM
Another ES? Guess I still don't understand dropping it, but it sounds like it suits your needs the best.
Dicey electrical issues with the alternators that we can't fully diagnose, rust seized bolts on the bottom of the car, etc. I'm tired of the headache and hassle associated with chasing ghosts in this car that may or may not exist. It's a nice car and I like it overall, but my desire to keep it around has pretty much evaporated.
Quote from: Raza on July 30, 2013, 08:01:01 AM
Oh, since I was looking, Acura TSX. Although I don't know how roomy they are.
They're smallish, but also hard to find in the price range unless they have a ridiculous number of miles.
Quote from: r0tor on July 30, 2013, 05:34:04 AM
Lexus IS?
Small and expensive to insure for some reason, but I still considered them. I like them a lot, but think I'd prefer something a little roomier and a little less overdone on the styling inside.
Went to a few lots to explore some options this weekend.
Looked at: Maxima, G35, I35. Even the newer generation Maxima than the one I looked at last year still feel kinda cheap inside and don't seem to hold up terribly well. I don't care for it much. I35 I ruled out last year for general unlikability (didn't drive as well as the Maxima, only slightly nicer inside) and that still held. G35 is interesting, but the interiors seem pretty hit and miss on how they've held up and aren't quite as refined as some of the other options. I will likely test drive one soon, but I'm not sure I like the rest of it enough to consider it.
Drove:
GS300 (02): I liked it quite a bit. The interior is nice, slightly nicer than the ES, and I like the almost minimalist style of the dash. The instrument cluster isn't my favorite ever, but I don't dislike it. It's nice and roomy, it feels wider inside than the ES without feeling like a lot larger car overall. It certainly handles better than the ES and still rides very comfortably. The straight 6 has a few more horses than the ES V6 does, but more importantly I like how it sounds. It has a little more growl to it. Probably not faster overall, but it's at least as fast. I know it won't be super easy to find one I like in the price range, but there are options available and I definitely liked it enough to pursue it.
Avalon (04): Not quite as nice as the ES but damn close. Cushy and big, but I hate the Buick-esque dash and it is none too interested in going around corners quickly. It's a handsome car, but pretty geriatric looking. I won't be considering them.
Prius (05): This was a random test drive because it happened to be on the same lot as another car. The tech behind the drivetrain is cool but I dislike pretty much everything else about the car. Not surprisingly, I won't be considering it.
Passat (09): Turns out it's hard to find an 06-10 Passat to test drive in Little Rock. Three listings were phantoms that had already been shipped off to auction by the dealers, the fourth I found, and liked the look of and might have even considered, but instead got to watch a family buy it while I was waiting to test drive it if they didn't get it. Managed to find one that was a bit out of my price range nearby though and took a drive. It was a 2.0T Komfort model and I actually liked it quite a bit. The 4 cylinder is a lot peppier than I'd expected and although it's a few less ponies than the ES I don't think I'd notice it. It certainly handles better than the ES and feels like it could actually be almost fun in the curves. The interior is built well and although not quite as plush as the Lexus, I liked it and it looks like it holds up pretty well. Only concern with the interior is the finish on the buttons, it seems to peel off on some of them but not others and I'm not sure what's behind that. I will definitely be pursuing it.
So the ES listing will be going up shortly and as soon as it is gone I will be actively searching for GSes and Passats, most likely in Texas. If I can get a good group together in either Dallas or Houston I'll zip down on a weekend and get something. I'm not opposed to looking into other options, but I think I could be very happy with either the GS or the Passat and either option would certainly be more interesting than anything I've been driving the last 9 years.
http://littlerock.craigslist.org/ctd/3976431367.html (http://littlerock.craigslist.org/ctd/3976431367.html)
I also keep hearing that the 2.0 FSI has some carbon build up issues, and electrical issues abound on VW's generally. It's a nice car, but I feel like it could be much worse than the ES.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 04, 2013, 09:48:29 PM
http://littlerock.craigslist.org/ctd/3976431367.html (http://littlerock.craigslist.org/ctd/3976431367.html)
Too much money, but interesting.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 04, 2013, 09:53:11 PM
I also keep hearing that the 2.0 FSI has some carbon build up issues, and electrical issues abound on VW's generally. It's a nice car, but I feel like it could be much worse than the ES.
Hmm. Well, the ES has a history of oil sludge issues potentially and this one apparently has it's own electrical issues. You're right that it could be problematic, but so far the 06-10 generation seems to be pretty reliable overall from what I've read. The 05 and earlier had their share of issues so it's a concern, but not so much so that I don't want to consider it. The GS would probably be the safer choice reliability wise, but I could get a considerably newer Passat for the same price so I'm not sure how that balances out in the long run. I figure I'm rolling some dice either way.
Obligatory reminder of why used Passats aren't too expensive:
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5408/2lw2.jpg)
Quote from: ifcar on August 05, 2013, 05:43:30 AM
Obligatory reminder of why used Passats aren't too expensive:
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5408/2lw2.jpg)
That doesn't look great. But it also has no real context. I don't understand how the engine minor and major categories go from the worst to the best rating in the 06-10 span when the engine itself didn't change in those years and there's no reason to assume the exact same engine somehow got magically more reliable. The inconsistencies in the ratings considering the car itself didn't significantly change between 2006-2010 don't make any sense to me, so I'm not sure what to take from that chart other than it might be bad... or it might not. I'm a little concerned about the Passat's reputation for reliability, but without an idea of what kinds of problems they frequently have I'm not sure what to make of that reputation.
Quote from: thewizard16 on August 05, 2013, 01:10:21 PM
That doesn't look great. But it also has no real context. I don't understand how the engine minor and major categories go from the worst to the best rating in the 06-10 span when the engine itself didn't change in those years and there's no reason to assume the exact same engine somehow got magically more reliable. The inconsistencies in the ratings considering the car itself didn't significantly change between 2006-2010 don't make any sense to me, so I'm not sure what to take from that chart other than it might be bad... or it might not. I'm a little concerned about the Passat's reputation for reliability, but without an idea of what kinds of problems they frequently have I'm not sure what to make of that reputation.
It could be problems being ironed out after the first year or two of production, or it could be aging more poorly than other cars, or statistical anomalies, or a mix of the three. The CR data are never a certainty, but they're not pointing to a great place.
My friend has an 08 Passat and it's been really great to him. And it's so comfortable without driving like a boat.
Quote from: ifcar on August 05, 2013, 01:17:17 PM
It could be problems being ironed out after the first year or two of production, or it could be aging more poorly than other cars, or statistical anomalies, or a mix of the three. The CR data are never a certainty, but they're not pointing to a great place.
Indeed. The reliability ratings from Identifix are very good (I like their ratings because they outline specific problems reported by the service shops) except for the 06, which they say has occasional fuel pump and intake manifold issues which are $$$. The peeling finishes on buttons that people are complaining about is a legitimate problem, I've seen a number of used listings with that problem, but it's hit and miss so I don't know if it's just a sign of poor quality control and a lot of them are poorly done or if it's a matter of time before they all do that. The mechanical and electrical issues are the biggest things I want to look out for. Mechanical because of the cost of repair and electrical because those problems will drive you crazy... At any rate, it's a concern so I'll have to pick carefully if I end up going that route.
Quote from: Raza on August 05, 2013, 01:19:01 PM
My friend has an 08 Passat and it's been really great to him. And it's so comfortable without driving like a boat.
The Passat isn't as comfortable as the ES, or the GS, but it's a bit cheaper car than either (well, especially the GS) and they definitely spent more of their design dollars on the suspension and engine than on making the interior plush. It's nice enough I could be happy with it though and I did enjoy how it drove. I certainly plan on looking at both GSes and Passats if I can find them in the same place, a decision will probably be based off what the nicest option available in the used market then is because I don't have a strong preference either way right now. Or there's an outside chance I'll find something else intriguing and get neither, but I think these are good options based off what I'm looking for. (After I get rid of the ES anyway.)
The flaws in CR's methodology are well documented.
A self-selected survey in which there have been known instances of people classifying a burnt out light bulb or a squeaking door hinge as a "major failure" will always produce inconsistent results.
Garbage in = garbage out.
Quote from: Madman on August 05, 2013, 11:12:21 PM
The flaws in CR's methodology are well documented.
A self-selected survey in which there have been known instances of people classifying a burnt out light bulb or a squeaking door hinge as a "major failure" will always produce inconsistent results.
Garbage in = garbage out.
True, yet it never kept legions of Toyota loyalists from being up their ratings for years, did it?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 05, 2013, 11:13:11 PM
True, yet it never kept legions of Toyota loyalists from being up their ratings for years, did it?
It cuts both ways. I've always noticed when owners of Japanese cars have a problem, they excuse it. But when owners of American (and some European) cars have a problem, they say "Oh, how typical!" The truth is the differences in today's cars from ALL manufacturers are so small, they fall within the statistical margin of error. Reliability has become so ubiquitous that you really can't buy a "bad" car, anymore. Even the cheapest modern shitbox with start every morning and not leave you stranded, That's something you couldn't say thirty years ago.
Quote from: Madman on August 05, 2013, 11:55:22 PM
It cuts both ways. I've always noticed when owners of Japanese cars have a problem, they excuse it. But when owners of American (and some European) cars have a problem, they say "Oh, how typical!" The truth is the differences in today's cars from ALL manufacturers are so small, they fall within the statistical margin of error. Reliability has become so ubiquitous that you really can't buy a "bad" car, anymore. Even the cheapest modern shitbox with start every morning and not leave you stranded, That's something you couldn't say thirty years ago.
All true, for the most part. Excepting Fiskers setting themselves alight.
Quote from: thewizard16 on August 05, 2013, 01:10:21 PM
That doesn't look great. But it also has no real context. I don't understand how the engine minor and major categories go from the worst to the best rating in the 06-10 span when the engine itself didn't change in those years and there's no reason to assume the exact same engine somehow got magically more reliable. The inconsistencies in the ratings considering the car itself didn't significantly change between 2006-2010 don't make any sense to me, so I'm not sure what to take from that chart other than it might be bad... or it might not. I'm a little concerned about the Passat's reputation for reliability, but without an idea of what kinds of problems they frequently have I'm not sure what to make of that reputation.
I was looking at B6 Passat 2.0T wagons for wifey's first car. The 06-08s only have direct injection and have carbon buildup problems. The TFSIs in the 09 and ups, if I recall correctly, have port and direct injection, cleaning off the valves and eliminating the carbon build up problem. I still want one, but if I get one I will either have to get an 07-08 with an extra cylinder head to clean and swap out every ~100K miles (along with a modified PCV/EGR system to minimize oil recirculation), or just pony up and get an '09+ and hope it doesn't have any deep design flaws. Seriously, google "FSI carbon buildup".... you will see shit like this:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2575/3730919614_78bf7432e6_o.jpg)
Here's what intake valves are supposed to look like:
(http://www.theoldone.com/articles/xmas/Big_B_P72_intake_port_2.jpg)
The cars are beautiful and drive great when everything is in order... but VWAG dropped the ball on their jump to direct injection. I wonder why diesel engines don't have these problems.... the difference is probably what they missed.
Quote from: Madman on August 05, 2013, 11:55:22 PM
It cuts both ways. I've always noticed when owners of Japanese cars have a problem, they excuse it. But when owners of American (and some European) cars have a problem, they say "Oh, how typical!" The truth is the differences in today's cars from ALL manufacturers are so small, they fall within the statistical margin of error. Reliability has become so ubiquitous that you really can't buy a "bad" car, anymore. Even the cheapest modern shitbox with start every morning and not leave you stranded, That's something you couldn't say thirty years ago.
I wouldn't go that far. There's a reason luxury car residuals drop off a cliff once the warranties run out. And as I just showed some companies have serious design flaws to this day.
Just need to do a lot of Italian tune ups to clean off the ports.
My buddy's S63 isn't the best example, but hear me out...
Every time he takes it to the dealership, it's essentially $2,000 to fix something. It still is under the CPO warranty, and he will be extending that. This is why luxury cars lose their value so fast.
Quote from: Madman on August 05, 2013, 11:12:21 PM
The flaws in CR's methodology are well documented.
A self-selected survey in which there have been known instances of people classifying a burnt out light bulb or a squeaking door hinge as a "major failure" will always produce inconsistent results.
Garbage in = garbage out.
No.
First, per ifcar's post, there is no "major failure" category.
Second, survey respondents don't get to classify the nature of the error. They report a supposed problem and CR decides how it is classified.
Third, most people would not report a burned out bulb as a "problem" unless it happens repeatedly as in the GM GMT800 trucks' notorious DRLs.
Fourth, CR employs statisticians such there is a fairly high degree of certainty that their methods reflect reality.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2013, 10:23:17 AM
No.
First, per ifcar's post, there is no "major failure" category.
Second, survey respondents don't get to classify the nature of the error. They report a supposed problem and CR decides how it is classified.
Third, most people would not report a burned out bulb as a "problem" unless it happens repeatedly as in the GM GMT800 trucks' notorious DRLs.
Fourth, CR employs statisticians such there is a fairly high degree of certainty that their methods reflect reality.
The reality of their sample, at least.
Quote from: Raza on August 06, 2013, 10:31:09 AM
The reality of their sample, at least.
As all statistics are - it is logically impossible to have the reality of a (statistical) population.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2013, 10:40:09 AM
As all statistics are - it is logically impossible to have the reality of a (statistical) population.
Well, some samples are more valid than others. I'm not saying CR is worthless, just that it's not gospel, as many people take it.
Quote from: Raza on August 06, 2013, 10:41:50 AM
Well, some samples are more valid than others. I'm not saying CR is worthless, just that it's not gospel, as many people take it.
I would take CR's word over the anecdotes of anyone here but our resident mechanics. If CR is so bad, what is a more reliable source for a car's long term reliability? Only thing I can think of is True Delta, IIRC, and their more nuanced findings (i.e. actual descriptions of issues prompting dealer trips) don't differ much at all from CR. I.e. VWs are still flaky and Toyotas are still problem free.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 06, 2013, 01:00:09 PM
I would take CR's word over the anecdotes of anyone here but our resident mechanics. If CR is so bad, what is a more reliable source for a car's long term reliability? Only thing I can think of is True Delta, IIRC, and their more nuanced findings (i.e. actual descriptions of issues prompting dealer trips) don't differ much at all from CR. I.e. VWs are still flaky and Toyotas are still problem free.
I just said it wasn't bad.
The ES sold today. :dance: The replacement search begins with intensity tonight. Depending on what I find and where I find it, I may be going car shopping this weekend.
Rockin' a rental until then?
Quote from: hotrodalex on August 28, 2013, 02:12:43 PM
Rockin' a rental until then?
I live practically across the street from the med center and there's a Walgreens, Kroger, liquor store, and lots of fast food/casual dining within a 10 minute walk of my house so I'm going to hold off on a rental for now. It's rather convenient to be able to go without a car if necessary, but it does make running major errands or going to the gym a pain in the ass.
This time the car search will be more of a sprint than a marathon... I'm heading to Dallas Friday morning, got my rental car lined up, have a hotel booked for Friday night and am nearly ready to attack the city looking for a car. I've got listings for GSes and Passats as well as a smattering of Acura TLs and TSXes, Mazda 6s, and even despite my dislike for the interior in pictures, a couple G35s. Other things may very well be added in the next 24 hours before I leave, so it should be an interesting, and likely very hectic, trip. Hopefully I find something I like and come home with a new (to me) toy.