Quote from: GoCougs on August 21, 2023, 12:23:42 PMBut they seem expensive to me - battery + ICE + EV drive train + charging HW.

Yeah but Plugin Hybrid shouldn't be THAT much more than Hybrid. Just need bigger battery and the charging stuff. But they're loads and loads more.

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 21, 2023, 03:18:09 PMYeah but Plugin Hybrid shouldn't be THAT much more than Hybrid. Just need bigger battery and the charging stuff. But they're loads and loads more.

Well once you add more battery, you need to add more power because of substantially more weight, and when putting in bigger motors you need even more battery....

I'd just buy a pure EV. For those worried about the edge cases of venturing beyond the home-destination-back-home range of their EVs, I'd say not to worry, but it makes more sense to hold onto your gasser. The charging infrastructure will take care of itself as it coalesces to something that's good.

... or the 70% of the population that is opposed to EVs remain that way, OEMs chase sales, and the charging infrastructure died on the vine

Quote from: Morris Minor on August 23, 2023, 11:19:43 AMI'd just buy a pure EV. For those worried about the edge cases of venturing beyond the home-destination-back-home range of their EVs, I'd say not to worry, but it makes more sense to hold onto your gasser. The charging infrastructure will take care of itself as it coalesces to something that's good.

Doesn't appear to be either economically or environmentally efficient.

Quote from: r0tor on August 23, 2023, 11:34:40 AM... or the 70% of the population that is opposed to EVs remain that way, OEMs chase sales, and the charging infrastructure died on the vine

OEMs need to learn how to make EVs profitably at prices people can afford. But so far they have not. That's why they push PHEVs: all those transmission flushes to be sold, all those UAW pension commitments to be met.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/20/cars/electric-cars-sales-gas-cars-dg/index.html

Good article indicating projected BEV and PHEV sales as a percentage of all new cars in the U.S. will max out at  < 30% by 2050 and that's with oil hitting $190/barrel. More likely maxing out at 17 to 19%. Barriers are high cost of entry and lack of public charging. 

These projections are by the EIA  (US energy information administration) which is the statistical agency of the Dept of Energy.

Quote from: veeman on August 24, 2023, 10:37:19 PMhttps://www.cnn.com/2023/08/20/cars/electric-cars-sales-gas-cars-dg/index.html

Good article indicating projected BEV and PHEV sales as a percentage of all new cars in the U.S. will max out at  < 30% by 2050 and that's with oil hitting $190/barrel. More likely maxing out at 17 to 19%. Barriers are high cost of entry and lack of public charging. 

These projections are by the EIA  (US energy information administration) which is the statistical agency of the Dept of Energy.

That means a pretty good pay day for the few manufacturers not going all in on BEVs

I drove my mom's Niro PHEV. The ride, steering, noise levels and handling are all big improvements over the previous Prius. EV only acceleration is tepid but enough to make her happy. The view out is great and the interior is incredibly spacious. A great car.

Quote from: r0tor on August 20, 2023, 03:05:35 PMExcept that drilling, refining, ect powers most EVs

Not as true now as it was 5 years ago, and even less true in the near future. Now that we are going to be getting our Lithium from geothermal energy in the Salton Sea and not using any Cobalt, and the batteries are 95% recyclable (so in a couple decades when there are enough end of life EVs out there, a good 40% of all battery production will be from recycled materials) this is a moot point.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/04/the-salton-sea-could-produce-the-worlds-greenest-lithium.html

Then there's the electricity used in oil refinement that doesn't have to be used anymore.



Each level on this stack captures a different part of the mix that is crude oil. This process requires a lot of energy, and I do mean a lot, to separate out the various components from crude oil.
Now, much of the energy required to do this comes from burning the hydrocarbons produced in the refinery itself (Elon Musk famously claimed it takes 5 kilowatt hours of electricity to refine one gallon of gasoline, but that's actually not true).

It does, however, take a lot of electricity nonetheless—in 2001, the last year for which I can find data, the US petroleum refining industry consumed about 47 TWh(!) of electricity.

If we're gonna get all worried about people plugging in their cars—which is silly, Facebook and Google use way more electricity—we gotta account for the electricity that's not being used to refine gasoline any more.

Feeling a bit of enabler guilt now; Laconian and I rent a virtual server on hardware in a data somewhere to keep the SPIN running. Every rage post spikes CPU cycles & melts a piece of a glacier somewhere.

I just did the math and each = 2.8 newly homeless polar bears.

Quote from: ChrisV on September 19, 2023, 02:10:20 PMNot as true now as it was 5 years ago, and even less true in the near future.

Remember, half the planet is near Third World - that's ~4,000,000,000 souls. Their positions will ONLY be improved via the burning of fossil fuels, so, the world over, fossil fuel usage will continue to escalate for centuries and yes, most EVs in most places will continue to be mostly be charged by fossil fuels.

Quote from: Morris Minor on September 19, 2023, 02:43:59 PMFeeling a bit of enabler guilt now; Laconian and I rent a virtual server on hardware in a data somewhere to keep the SPIN running. Every rage post spikes CPU cycles & melts a piece of a glacier somewhere.

I just did the math and each = 2.8 newly homeless polar bears.

Quote from: Morris Minor on August 23, 2023, 12:07:29 PMOEMs need to learn how to make EVs profitably at prices people can afford. But so far they have not. That's why they push PHEVs: all those transmission flushes to be sold, all those UAW pension commitments to be met.

• General Motors is changing its product lineup strategy to include plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, CEO Mary Barra told investors Tuesday.
• Barra did not disclose specific details of the plans other than that plug-in hybrids will be rolled out on select vehicles in North America to assist in meeting more stringent federal fuel economy regulations.
• GM led the way in plug-in electric vehicles with the Chevrolet Volt during the 2010s. The company discontinued the vehicle in early 2019, citing demand and cost concerns.

More...
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/30/gm-to-release-plug-in-hybrid-vehicles-backtracking-on-product-plans.html

Translation... Coming to dealers near you - some rushed and not very well engineered or tested GM PHEVs

GM isn't really at the vanguard of anything, is it?

Quote from: Laconian on January 30, 2024, 03:08:52 PMGM isn't really at the vanguard of anything, is it?

Make great Volt. Make similar named car named Bolt, confuse all normal consumers. Kill both. Bring back Bolt. Now bring back Volt.

Quote from: Laconian on January 30, 2024, 03:08:52 PMGM isn't really at the vanguard of anything, is it?

It just seems stultified to me. 

Hmmmm. Is she playing 4th dimensional chess maybe? Did she read the tea leaves back then - that WtP buy Tesla and not EVs?

Quote from: r0tor on January 30, 2024, 02:48:10 PMTranslation... Coming to dealers near you - some rushed and not very well engineered or tested GM PHEVs

And just enough to meet the fuel economy numbers and no more. Regardless of how well it sells. If it doesn't sell well, FLEETS!!!

Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 30, 2024, 04:10:39 PMMake great Volt. Make similar named car named Bolt, confuse all normal consumers. Kill both. Bring back Bolt. Now bring back Volt.

What a business model!!!!

Quote from: r0tor on January 30, 2024, 02:48:10 PMTranslation... Coming to dealers near you - some rushed and not very well engineered or tested GM PHEVs

I have had 4 coworkers that have bought Volts. All have loved them. 1 still has hers and another is looking at possibly getting another one if he can find a 2nd gen in good condition.

Former co-worker had one and LOVED IT except for the fact their dealership couldn't figure out an overheating issue. Probably a plugged tube somewhere, but he sold it (ended up scoring a super sweet deal on a used Tesla).

Only criticism I've found when looking at Volts is the "small backseat".

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on January 31, 2024, 11:14:23 AMFormer co-worker had one and LOVED IT except for the fact their dealership couldn't figure out an overheating issue. Probably a plugged tube somewhere, but he sold it (ended up scoring a super sweet deal on a used Tesla).

Only criticism I've found when looking at Volts is the "small backseat".

The small backseat is actually a big reason we ended up getting a Bolt. For the 1-2 times a year we have my brother in law or someone else tall in the back seat...

No regrets though, the reliability of pure EV is probably better than PHEV. Much simpler.

Yeah, the Volt was super cramped.  Really cool tech though.  It was probably the best car GM has made in a long time.  I'm pretty sure they were losing their ass on each one.

Quote from: MrH on January 31, 2024, 01:14:56 PMYeah, the Volt was super cramped.  Really cool tech though.  It was probably the best car GM has made in a long time.  I'm pretty sure they were losing their ass on each one.

According to Bob Lutz, the Volt, at least by the time the 2nd gen came out, was making about as much money as a Cruze, as the costs to build were about the same.

I liked my '13, but after getting the Bolt in 2020, I only put about 300 miles on it in a year. the Bolt was cheaper to operate and actually more fun to drive.



But as the insurance companies have found out, hybrids are far more likely to catch fire than gas cars, which are far more likely to catch fire than EVs:

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/

"Hybrid-powered cars were involved in about 3,475 fires per every 100,000 sold. Gasoline-powered cars, about 1,530. Electric vehicles (EVs) saw just 25 fires per 100,000 sold."

Quote from: ChrisV on February 07, 2024, 08:33:12 AMas the costs to build were about the same.

What. The volt had batteries, a motor, and an engine. The Cruze had an engine.

I think we are eventually going to look at a Grand Cherokee PHEV.

The only appeal to me at this point is it's not school bus slow like the V6 and theoretically might be the cheapest way to get the 4x4 system with a transfer case.

The reliability scares the hell out of me. The added weight effects the ride. The benefit of 25 miles of electric range for 15kWh seems minimal - that probably saves $1 in operating costs per day.  I wish they just had a normal HEV option.

Quote from: r0tor on February 07, 2024, 10:51:52 AMI think we are eventually going to look at a Grand Cherokee PHEV.

The only appeal to me at this point is it's not school bus slow like the V6 and theoretically might be the cheapest way to get the 4x4 system with a transfer case.

The reliability scares the hell out of me. The added weight effects the ride. The benefit of 25 miles of electric range for 15kWh seems minimal - that probably saves $1 in operating costs per day.  I wish they just had a normal HEV option.

Sounds like you're not impressed, so why is it a contender? The Wrangler 4xE isn't very reliable.

My neighbor is a huge fan of his hybrid Toyota Highlander.

Quote from: Laconian on February 07, 2024, 12:07:55 PMSounds like you're not impressed, so why is it a contender? The Wrangler 4xE isn't very reliable.

My neighbor is a huge fan of his hybrid Toyota Highlander.

It's a contender based off of my wife loving our current one and it hits the physical size sweet spot for us between storage for traveling and size for her to negotiate.

I seriously doubt she will routinely plug it in.  She would probably just prefer the V6 again - but I'm less than thrilled with the performance and now you need to get an upper trim level to get a 2 speed transfer case in the V6... without the transfer case it's just another AWD crossover and I would rather have a few other options from that list.  It is sort of our vehicle designated for snowpacslypes and other doomsday mountainy crap so some ruggedness it welcome.