http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlvMRTQ6-X0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlvMRTQ6-X0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuJaUcpHWzg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuJaUcpHWzg)
670HP!!!!!!!!!!!
From Chris Harris's video it appears to be halaciously fast, great sounding, and easy but engaging to drive... So perhaps even better than the 458
For some reason though the Ferrari brand seems to be lacking for me... Its probably a car that I would want the drive more then anything if given a chance, but even if I had the money I could never see myself as a Ferrari owner. I guess our local cars & coffee has tainted it for me.
Ha, ha - noticeably less responsive up and down shifts :facepalm: (just watch an in-car F458 vid, or even a 991 GT3). Harris wants to say more but he dances around it but not surprising given his relationship with Ferrari. Fer real shame. Ferrari was turning out the best N/A motors in the world. Doesn't sound as good as the F458 either.
Quote from: GoCougs on June 04, 2015, 06:43:05 PM
Ha, ha - noticeably less responsive up and down shifts :facepalm: (just watch an in-car F458 vid, or even a 991 GT3). Harris wants to say more but he dances around it but not surprising given his relationship with Ferrari. Fer real shame. Ferrari was turning out the best N/A motors in the world. Doesn't sound as good as the F458 either.
Lel u w0t m8. (http://jalopnik.com/5760248/how-ferrari-spins) Chris Harris relationship with Ferrari has been tumultuous at best. And wat lag are u seeing. Can u point to timestamps in the video that demonstrate wat ur talking about?
And this thing sounds exactly like the F430 and 458 I actually drove... just slightly lower revving since those went to 9 and this goes to 8 :huh:
Dont do it bro ur jihad will get Seal Team 6'd on this one.
My premise, as all my premises, is indefeatible, so the challenge is accepted and luckily for 'SPIN bytes, already won: by the very nature of how a turbo charged engine works it will not be as responsive as its N/A counterpart.
My point is Chris Harris agrees with me but since Ferrari doesn't care much for him, and he has to go lightly on the criticism of their new darling on their turf on their invite, if he wants to keep getting invited back.
See the Evo vid at about the 1 minute mark and then find F458 and GT3 in-car vids. It's noticeable, and it's a real shame.
So in other words u have nothing lel. Another Cougspiracy theory. Obviously a turbocharged engine will not have the same response as an N/A engine; they make up for that with more shove and efficiency though. Unless u can quantify how much lag this motor has over the old one, Im gonna write off your eulogies and go with the word of the guy who called out Ferrari on their BS, bought one with his own $$$, and literally drives them and their competitors for a living.
Bonus lel there is no EVO vid of the 488 GTB... didnt see anything strange at the 1m mark; in the first vid they are just getting into the car, 2nd vid they have a diagram of the car and dont even have in car footage. But I will gladly go deeper down the Cougspiracy fanfic rabbit hole.
So in other words you agree with me - not as responsive.
So what in the hell is it you're doing then?
omg lel.
Lul wtf
Edit: lol accidentally typed lul, I meant lel.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on June 04, 2015, 08:30:21 PM
Lul wtf
Edit: lol accidentally typed lul, I meant lel.
lal
trelelelel
falafel
lalalalalabamba
falaflel
What's the point of this thread? lel
Sporty winning at the internet. Lel. Bonus Lel.
Come into this thread liek....
(http://i.imgur.com/U1JvO2I.gif)
Dopp[lel]kupplung
Real talk doe I wanna talk about the Ferrari.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 05, 2015, 04:43:34 AM
Real talk doe I wanna talk about the Ferrari.
It's ugly on lame.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 05, 2015, 04:43:34 AM
Real talk doe I wanna talk about the Ferrari.
Another massively expensive, massively capable, ugly car that will never be driven much above highway speeds by the people who can afford to reach their arthritic hands into their deep arthritic wallets and actually pay for it.
Ferraris have lost my interest to be honest. If I hit the Powerball tomorrow, there isn't a current Ferrari that I would put on my list, which I think is an indictment from the hypothetically nouveau riche car enthusiast.
Quote from: Raza on June 05, 2015, 06:57:54 AM
Another massively expensive, massively capable, ugly car that will never be driven much above highway speeds by the people who can afford to reach their arthritic hands into their deep arthritic wallets and actually pay for it.
Ferraris have lost my interest to be honest. If I hit the Powerball tomorrow, there isn't a current Ferrari that I would put on my list, which I think is an indictment from the hypothetically nouveau riche car enthusiast.
What would you get?
I think his car is great but I'm never going to own one so it has my interest as much as a 7 passenger SUV
Quote from: Raza on June 05, 2015, 06:57:54 AM
Another massively expensive, massively capable, ugly car that will never be driven much above highway speeds by the people who can afford to reach their arthritic hands into their deep arthritic wallets and actually pay for it.
Ferraris have lost my interest to be honest. If I hit the Powerball tomorrow, there isn't a current Ferrari that I would put on my list, which I think is an indictment from the hypothetically nouveau riche car enthusiast.
If you hit the powerball tomorrow, can you buy me one?
Quote from: Raza on June 05, 2015, 06:57:54 AM
Another massively expensive, massively capable, ugly car that will never be driven much above highway speeds by the people who can afford to reach their arthritic hands into their deep arthritic wallets and actually pay for it.
U know aside from the "massively expensive" part much of the same could be said about your car
Why do you hold the people who buy a car as a demerit against the car itself? Are u a member of the "Z4 club"? Do u really put that much stock in what a car says about its owner? Pls tell me u arent that materialistic/insecure
Quote from: Raza on June 05, 2015, 06:57:54 AM
Ferraris have lost my interest to be honest. If I hit the Powerball tomorrow, there isn't a current Ferrari that I would put on my list, which I think is an indictment from the hypothetically nouveau riche car enthusiast.
Lel, let me guess, their cars used to be so much better in the past and were only bought and driven by heroes of purism.
(http://37.media.tumblr.com/71b766899c09cdac9f24721775327300/tumblr_n9ij0ekQmc1setsv8o1_400.gif)
The same exact kind of people buying Ferraris today are the same kind of people who were buying them in the past. Driving a stickshift car is hardly a Herculean feat or some mind blowing skill. My mom drove stickshift for years and she is not a great driver by any means.
Wat is the real problem here. Because it doesnt seem like its with Ferrari. This gripe u have is downright Chartardesque.
I'm a huge fan. Would totally buy this (particularly its Speciale equivalent) if I had the means.
Not a fan of this car just based on styling alone. I wish Ferrari would build an F355 equivalent. If Ferrari built a small displacement V8 pushing 400 hp, a 6 speed manual, 2800 lbs, and sexy styling, I would be all over that shit. Of course, I wouldn't be able to afford it still so it really wouldn't matter if they built it or not.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on June 05, 2015, 07:01:24 AM
What would you get?
I think his car is great but I'm never going to own one so it has my interest as much as a 7 passenger SUV
Aston V8 Vantage Roadster is the number one on my list, and has been for a long time. Accessible performance, jaw dropping good looks, six speed stick. Jag F-Type is on the list too, especially if it does come out with a stick.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 05, 2015, 08:18:46 AM
U know aside from the "massively expensive" part much of the same could be said about your car
Why do you hold the people who buy a car as a demerit against the car itself? Are u a member of the "Z4 club"? Do u really put that much stock in what a car says about its owner? Pls tell me u arent that materialistic/insecure
One, you don't need to be a race driver to be able to exploit my car fully. With some training and some track time and dedication (similar to what I've gone through), you can reach the limits of my Z4. And you can still have some nearly legal fun in it without hitting the limits. Two, what a car says about the owner does matter. And I'm not talking about that aspirational bullshit, like buying a Jeep makes me an adventurer or something, when in reality your biggest adventure is likely dropping the kids off at school, but branding and image matter--which is why there is an area of law dedicated to protecting image. It's the same reason I like the BRZ, but would never own an FR-S. On the rare occasion I do wear a hat, I wear it facing forward (but really, I don't wear hats), so the Scion isn't for me.
Quote
Lel, let me guess, their cars used to be so much better in the past and were only bought and driven by heroes of purism.
(http://37.media.tumblr.com/71b766899c09cdac9f24721775327300/tumblr_n9ij0ekQmc1setsv8o1_400.gif)
The same exact kind of people buying Ferraris today are the same kind of people who were buying them in the past. Driving a stickshift car is hardly a Herculean feat or some mind blowing skill. My mom drove stickshift for years and she is not a great driver by any means.
Wat is the real problem here. Because it doesnt seem like its with Ferrari. This gripe u have is downright Chartardesque.
It's a combination of the cars being really easy to drive and really difficult to drive at the limit. Older Ferraris were purer; there was a time that Ferrari looked at the 959 and said that level of technology didn't belong in a Ferrari (which, if I remember correctly, was part of the run up to the development of the venerable F40). Nowadays, the cars look and feel like computers. You've experienced it, just as I have. Even on the track I drove that 430, stuck in automatic mode, it wasn't all that exciting outside of the intangible parts of the experience. Great car, in a way, but I preferred driving my Z4 to the 430.
I respect these cars as engineering feats. I really do. But, rarely do engineering feats get my blood pumping. These new Ferraris are damn near perfect, and perfection is hard to love, as with cars and with people. Flaws are what I find so endearing about the 911 (which has also waned for me lately) and cars of its ilk. Yes, I like older Ferraris, not just because they had style, which these cars now lack, but they also had a certain I-don't-know-what (in French), which these cars just don't have. Charm, maybe.
And to be fair, it's not just Ferrari that often leaves me cold. The new Pagani does nothing for me, Mclarens have always seemed sanitized, and even Lamborghinis are less exciting than they used to be.
And it's not just that they don't come with a stick, nor is it that I believe a driving a stick is some mythical quest. It's just how I prefer to do things and that won't change.
Quote from: SVT666 on June 05, 2015, 01:13:18 PM
Not a fan of this car just based on styling alone. I wish Ferrari would build an F355 equivalent. If Ferrari built a small displacement V8 pushing 400 hp, a 6 speed manual, 2800 lbs, and sexy styling, I would be all over that shit. Of course, I wouldn't be able to afford it still so it really wouldn't matter if they built it or not.
They are supposedly bringing back the Dino. So no V8 (personally I prefer the sound of a 6 cylinder....nobody wants to admit it, but flat plane V8s sound like throaty 4 bangers), but all the rest of the stuff u want. OR u could just supercharge a Cayman
Personally, I feel like the F430 and 458 needed more power/torque. My bike is about as fast as the F430 through the quarter, and could hang with a 458 from 0-60. This thing should be down in the 9s for the quarter mile, which is "bloody fast m8". If I were to buy one of these cars I would probably only track them.... even the lowly F430 is fcking pointless on the street, you have to break the law just to warm it up. The cars are fast no doubt but they dont feel very fast. Turbo torque would fix that. U can get divine balance in a $30K Subaru and street fast balance in a $60K Cayman. For $300K+ I want to shake hands with God
Well on that note, isn't your bike fucking pointless too? You have to break the law just to warm it up?
One side of your mouth says it's slower than your bike so it's not that fast. The other side says well, who cares, because it's illegal. Well, what is it?
Chris Harris jizzed all over the car. Seems like a phenomenal car.
Quote from: Raza on June 05, 2015, 01:53:36 PM
One, you don't need to be a race driver to be able to exploit my car fully. With some training and some track time and dedication (similar to what I've gone through), you can reach the limits of my Z4. And you can still have some nearly legal fun in it without hitting the limits.
If u cant have fun in a Ferrari u are doing it wrong. Even tooling around Maranello side streets in the clunky ass F430 was an experience burned into my brain
Quote from: Raza on June 05, 2015, 01:53:36 PMTwo, what a car says about the owner does matter. And I'm not talking about that aspirational bullshit, like buying a Jeep makes me an adventurer or something, when in reality your biggest adventure is likely dropping the kids off at school, but branding and image matter--which is why there is an area of law dedicated to protecting image. It's the same reason I like the BRZ, but would never own an FR-S. On the rare occasion I do wear a hat, I wear it facing forward (but really, I don't wear hats), so the Scion isn't for me.
Lel, what a car says about an owner doesn't matter. Why? Because you can find something negative in the image of every car. Are u really going to sit here and tell me you WANT to look like a douchebag hairdresser? Because thats the image associated with the BMW Z convertible. And Subaru's image is silly as hell, in the context of its performance cars. U gonna tell me theres no element of backwards cappery associated with WRXs? So even in your flawed value system u arent evaluating things honestly. Its just forced snobbery pure and simple, its a waste of time and energy. If a car is nice to u u buy it.... who cares what people who dont know shit about u think of u based on the car u drive? What value do their opinions hold? As long as your car isnt a POS or uncomfortable for a normal person anything is fair game.
Quote from: Raza on June 05, 2015, 01:53:36 PMIt's a combination of the cars being really easy to drive and really difficult to drive at the limit. Older Ferraris were purer; there was a time that Ferrari looked at the 959 and said that level of technology didn't belong in a Ferrari (which, if I remember correctly, was part of the run up to the development of the venerable F40). Nowadays, the cars look and feel like computers. You've experienced it, just as I have. Even on the track I drove that 430, stuck in automatic mode, it wasn't all that exciting outside of the intangible parts of the experience. Great car, in a way, but I preferred driving my Z4 to the 430.
And I preferred driving my Z to both the Ferraris I drove. Much of that was due to the power delivery though- I have grown to kind of loathe high RPM screamers on the street. All that "Ferraris used to be so pure" stuff is kinda BS though. U are talking about two of dozens of models. When the 959 and F40 were running around, basic Porsches were awesome and basic Ferraris were horrible. Those Porsches were also just as "pure" as anything and way more relevant to the average person. Plus the F40 was hardly low tech.... turbocharging was basically space age shit when it was out, as was carbon fiber and all that stuff. It was just a handful to drive at the limit, which is somehow a "good thing".
Other reason I preferred my Z was stickshift. I hope to drive a 6MT F430 as I don't think judging it by the clunky ass F1 box is fair.
Quote from: Raza on June 05, 2015, 01:53:36 PMI respect these cars as engineering feats. I really do. But, rarely do engineering feats get my blood pumping. These new Ferraris are damn near perfect, and perfection is hard to love, as with cars and with people. Flaws are what I find so endearing about the 911 (which has also waned for me lately) and cars of its ilk. Yes, I like older Ferraris, not just because they had style, which these cars now lack, but they also had a certain I-don't-know-what (in French), which these cars just don't have. Charm, maybe.
And to be fair, it's not just Ferrari that often leaves me cold. The new Pagani does nothing for me, Mclarens have always seemed sanitized, and even Lamborghinis are less exciting than they used to be.
And it's not just that they don't come with a stick, nor is it that I believe a driving a stick is some mythical quest. It's just how I prefer to do things and that won't change.
Je ne sais quoiTo be fair I agree, cars have become very derivative and predictable. Everything is iterative and regulation driven. There was a time when the 911, Corvette, Mustang, 3 series etc were brand new ideas. Manufacturers used to take huge risks that generally paid off. Now it seems like every market is completely saturated, and car development is pretty much on cruise control. Efficiency, infotainment gimmicks, space, performance numbers. Rinse wash repeat. Thats why nowadays Im more interested in the business side of cars, rather than the cars themselves. Even with all the updates and everything, most cars these days just feel old and stale. Even this, to a degree, though it looks fun as hell to drive.
But by the same degree, I find pining for the past and obsessing over image to be pointless. About as cliched hipster as one can get. Just gotta let all that shit go mayne. End of the day the shit doesnt matter.
Quote from: MrH on June 05, 2015, 02:13:01 PM
Well on that note, isn't your bike fucking pointless too? You have to break the law just to warm it up?
Not at all. Lel. Bike is all consuming and raw like no car I've ever driven. Just turning it on and pulling it out of the driveway is special.
Quote from: MrH on June 05, 2015, 02:13:01 PMOne side of your mouth says it's slower than your bike so it's not that fast. The other side says well, who cares, because it's illegal. Well, what is it?
Youre not listening. Maybe Im being too verbose. To me, a Ferrari should have more oomph than a little middleweight standard bike (not even a sportbike). That's my frame of reference. The other side of that is, because their powerbands are top heavy, you have to wind them up to feel the power. At which point u are breaking the law. Bike pulls strong from 4K to redline. I can surf the midrange or ride it to the limit... either way its fast, engaging and doesnt make me feel like 'man i wish i could open it up'. Ferrari needed a track to be opened up, at which point it was like 'OK'. Wasnt like 'oooooo miiii gooooodd itttsss a fffeerrrrraarrrrrriii'. I feel like this 488 finally brings that to the MR V8 cars.
A somewhat reasonable driver on that Ferrari will leave 99.999% of bike riders (regardless pf bike) in the dust. Road or track.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 05, 2015, 02:25:56 PM
And I preferred driving my Z to both the Ferraris I drove. Much of that was due to the power delivery though- I have grown to kind of loathe high RPM screamers on the street. All that "Ferraris used to be so pure" stuff is kinda BS though.
Other reason I preferred my Z was stickshift. I hope to drive a 6MT F430 as I don't think judging it by the clunky ass F1 box is fair.
Je ne sais quoi
To be fair I agree, cars have become very derivative and predictable. Everything is iterative and regulation driven. There was a time when the 911, Corvette, Mustang, 3 series etc were brand new ideas. Manufacturers used to take huge risks that generally paid off. Now it seems like every market is completely saturated, and car development is pretty much on cruise control. Efficiency, infotainment gimmicks, space, performance numbers. Rinse wash repeat. Thats why nowadays Im more interested in the business side of cars, rather than the cars themselves. Even with all the updates and everything, most cars these days just feel old and stale. Even this, to a degree, though it looks fun as hell to drive.
Ultra lol at preferring a 350Z over any, absolutely any modern Ferrari. You've gone off the deep end. You are the king of weird rationalisations. I guess it makes you very happy. Whatever you own at the moment is the best possible car for you! Even the goddam Civic!
I mean, I am happy with my car, but really arguing about preferring them over a modern Ferrari? Fuck. :facepalm:
And, of course they are > 350Z. Any of the three. :evildude:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 05, 2015, 02:25:56 PM
Youre not listening. Maybe Im being too verbose. To me, a Ferrari should have more oomph than a little middleweight standard bike (not even a sportbike). That's my frame of reference. The other side of that is, because their powerbands are top heavy, you have to wind them up to feel the power. At which point u are breaking the law.
Maybe not your bike, but on mine (and all liter supersports), getting it up into the real meat of the power band means breaking the speed limit. Peak power on my bike occurs at 63 mph in 1st gear and redline is ~70. I'm well into super-legal speeds at peak power in any higher gear (~85 in 2nd, 100+ in 3rd). Liter supersports are even worse. 80+ mph to hit peak power in 1st gear on most any of the liter supersports and triple digits in second. Even the middleweight repli-racers, you're looking at ~70 or more mph for peak power in 1st, 85+ in second and triple digits in 3rd.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 05, 2015, 01:57:02 PM
They are supposedly bringing back the Dino. So no V8 (personally I prefer the sound of a 6 cylinder....nobody wants to admit it, but flat plane V8s sound like throaty 4 bangers), but all the rest of the stuff u want. OR u could just supercharge a Cayman
Personally, I feel like the F430 and 458 needed more power/torque. My bike is about as fast as the F430 through the quarter, and could hang with a 458 from 0-60. This thing should be down in the 9s for the quarter mile, which is "bloody fast m8". If I were to buy one of these cars I would probably only track them.... even the lowly F430 is fcking pointless on the street, you have to break the law just to warm it up. The cars are fast no doubt but they dont feel very fast. Turbo torque would fix that. U can get divine balance in a $30K Subaru and street fast balance in a $60K Cayman. For $300K+ I want to shake hands with God
A Cayman GT4 is exactly what an entry level Ferrari should be...but with a small displacement V8, IMHO
Quote from: MX793 on June 05, 2015, 03:46:46 PM
Maybe not your bike, but on mine (and all liter supersports), getting it up into the real meat of the power band means breaking the speed limit. Peak power on my bike occurs at 63 mph in 1st gear and redline is ~70. I'm well into super-legal speeds at peak power in any higher gear (~85 in 2nd, 100+ in 3rd). Liter supersports are even worse. 80+ mph to hit peak power in 1st gear on most any of the liter supersports and triple digits in second. Even the middleweight repli-racers, you're looking at ~70 or more mph for peak power in 1st, 85+ in second and triple digits in 3rd.
My bike redlines at 50 mph, 70, 90 and so on and so forth with an 11K redline and a 4-8K powerband. So its a lot like a car. As long as Im above 4K, which is about 60 in 6th, I can twist the throttle and it won't lug or bitch or w/e. What you are talking about is why Im leaning more towards the SV1K. Engines with high RPM powerbands are not happy down low and after owning a car again after a long time I have realized I hate wind up engines. Supersports are downright silly and pointless for the road but thats another thread....
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 05, 2015, 03:16:45 PM
A somewhat reasonable driver on that Ferrari will leave 99.999% of bike riders (regardless pf bike) in the dust. Road or track.
But we arent talking about winning races. We are talking about enjoying the drive. DSG is faster than stickshift, everyone knows this. But many folks still prefer stickshift (myself included :huh: )
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 05, 2015, 03:16:45 PMUltra lol at preferring a 350Z over any, absolutely any modern Ferrari. You've gone off the deep end. You are the king of weird rationalisations. I guess it makes you very happy. Whatever you own at the moment is the best possible car for you! Even the goddam Civic!
Its true. I did prefer the Z over the Ferraris. The Ferraris were fun, no doubt, obviously way faster, but I prefer driving stickshift that much more. Plus, OK, the 458's chassis was pretty much perfect. But the F430's transmission was terrible, the interior didnt feel very expensive or special, and the suspension was very rough. It felt very unrefined, but not in a raw way. And if I thought the Z was the best possible car at the moment for me why would I sell it :confused: And yes, the Civic is the best car for me at the moment. Cheap to run, reliable, low profile, practical, able to keep up with traffic, fun to drive. I have too much shit going on right now to be pouring time and money into a car I dont have time or money to track or build to impress people on the internet. And I still have the bike. It is the right car for me right now.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 05, 2015, 03:16:45 PMI mean, I am happy with my car, but really arguing about preferring them over a modern Ferrari? Fuck. :facepalm:
And, of course they are > 350Z. Any of the three. :evildude:
The lack of a third pedal just killed a lot of the experience for me, especially with the F430's bad automanual. They felt a lot slower than the specs suggested. The engines sound like modded Honda DOHC VTEC 4 bangers, which is not necessarily a diss, but def a let down. I think you are too wrapped up in the brand. Im not going to not call things as I see them cause its a FERRRAAAARRRRII.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 05, 2015, 05:06:42 PM
My bike redlines at 50 mph, 70, 90 and so on and so forth with an 11K redline and a 4-8K powerband. So its a lot like a car. As long as Im above 4K, which is about 60 in 6th, I can twist the throttle and it won't lug or bitch or w/e. What you are talking about is why Im leaning more towards the SV1K. Engines with high RPM powerbands are not happy down low and after owning a car again after a long time I have realized I hate wind up engines. Supersports are downright silly and pointless for the road but thats another thread....
Mine's not even that top-end-centric. Same 11K redline as yours and the midrange pulls hard. But it definitely kicks it up a notch when you hit ~6500 RPM. Rolling into it in 2nd gear from 30 mph, my TCS light will start blinking when the needle clears 6500-7000 RPM under steady throttle input (not sure if it's wheelie prevention or if the rear is actually starting to slip).
My powerband actually lines up about dead-on with an SV1K up until 7500 RPM, at which point the SV starts to plateau and mine continues climbing steeply for another 500 RPM before starting its own plateau. Overall gearing is pretty close too. SV hits its stride a few hundred RPM earlier, but you're still looking at ~50+ mph in 2nd (and about 70 in 3rd) when it starts to open up.
Meh, if I were in the market for a hyper performance car I'd go down to the Porsche dealer and order me up a 911 GT3, and maybe the RS even. Ferrari has totally jumped the shark with these turbo motors.
I like my cars having a few quirks. They give the car character. And when cars are too easy to drive, there is no "taming the beast" which is very gratifying.
I gotta say, I'm not enamoured with the sound of the 488. It's like an entire octave lower than the 458 and does not stir the juices at all.
Yea it def lost some of its vocal edge. Ironically the California T sounds a good bit meaner. They both all still sound like race built 4 bangers though.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on June 05, 2015, 07:01:24 AM
What would you get?
I think his car is great but I'm never going to own one so it has my interest as much as a 7 passenger SUV
I'm way more likely to own a 7 passenger SUV...