Fantastico! Front o/h looks a little long, but I'll reserve judgement with better pics. So far, me gusta enough to start a savings fund. :dance:
http://jalopnik.com/2017-fiat-124-spider-this-is-it-1733363750 (http://jalopnik.com/2017-fiat-124-spider-this-is-it-1733363750)
"More important is what's under the hood. We're anticipating Fiat's 1.4-liter turbo four with around 180 horsepower for the base engine, and the 1.7-liter turbo four from the Alfa Romeo 4C with 240 HP on the upmodel, probably Abarth-badged version." :dance: :dance: :dance:
This is an early Abarth render, but looks like they got the tail lights right...
(http://cdn2.autoexpress.co.uk/sites/autoexpressuk/files/styles/insert_main_image/public/6/60//abarth-124-bw.jpg)
There's too much Mazda in this design, especially the interior.
With this much parts sharing on the outside, I can only anticipate the same 1.5 and 2.0 from Mazda. I don't think Fiat has a small RWD transmission, nor do I think the 1.4T will mate up to it.
It's not that hard to mate a gearbox to a motor. Will probably use the same transmission as the Mazda but with a different bell housing to mate with the Fiat motor.
They can slap a Fiat motor onto the existing transmission.
Def looks too Mazda ish for me. Was hoping for something like the Alfa Spider
Looks like shit. They somehow managed to make the ND more ugly.
The hardest sell for any mazda buyer will be the absolutely scant aftermarket that either of these italians will have.
That really is(to me) the biggest draw to the miata. It has a HUGE aftermarket and knowledgebase.
I can't imagine they will get a lot of miata buyers to jump to these, most like they will get premium buyers to move down to these.
Quote from: thecarnut on September 28, 2015, 10:31:25 AM
Looks like shit. They somehow managed to make the ND more ugly.
It's really hard to tell with a black car. Give it a chance.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 28, 2015, 10:10:55 AM
There's too much Mazda in this design, especially the interior.
With this much parts sharing on the outside, I can only anticipate the same 1.5 and 2.0 from Mazda. I don't think Fiat has a small RWD transmission, nor do I think the 1.4T will mate up to it.
They said no body panels are shared between the two... again, hard to tell with grainy pics of a black car. As for the powerplants, they said from the git-go they'll have Fiat/Alfa engines, and at least the 1.4T MultiAir has been confirmed as the base engine, using the Mazda transmissions.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 28, 2015, 10:35:07 AM
The hardest sell for any mazda buyer will be the absolutely scant aftermarket that either of these italians will have.
That really is(to me) the biggest draw to the miata. It has a HUGE aftermarket and knowledgebase.
I can't imagine they will get a lot of miata buyers to jump to these, most like they will get premium buyers to move down to these.
Chassis and I'm imagining drivetrain from the tranny back will be shared
And the 1.4T actually has a decent aftermarket following, as well as good OEM support through its various states of tune.
I would still prefer the Miata, simply because road tests indicate it's plenty quick enough and it will be more reliable with better dealer support. I'm not sure I see many people stepping down to this, unless FCA loads it up with sound deadening and luxury features, which will be problematic and silly.
Other biggie is pricing. This thing will probably be in the no-man's land of the Z. Miata is already a bit much to swallow price wise, but doable for the right person. Will def be watching this one real close
I'm guessing the 1.4T in various trims will be priced on par with the Miata... $25~$32K.
The Abarth, I'd say $35~40K, which puts it roughly even with the S2000, adjusted for inflation.
I really don't see how(or why) anyone would assume that a more powerful lower production version being offered form a european brand would be the same cost as the miata.
I'm guessing base fiat's will be 34-35K, and any hotter or abarth model will be at or right above 40K. Even that estimate may be generous depending on equipment packages. I certainly wouldn't be shocked to see the abarth touching 45-46K.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 28, 2015, 11:47:00 AM
I really don't see how(or why) anyone would assume that a more powerful lower production version being offered form a european brand would be the same cost as the miata.
I'm guessing base fiat's will be 34-35K, and any hotter or abarth model will be at or right above 40K. Even that estimate may be generous depending on equipment packages. I certainly wouldn't be shocked to see the abarth touching 45-46K.
Because it will be built on the same line as the Miata in Japan, that's why.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 28, 2015, 11:51:52 AM
Because it will be built on the same line as the Miata in Japan, that's why.
With more power and go fast bits. It will have to cost more
Plus, they can get away charging more for an "Italian" sports car aimed at old dudes wanting to relive their 124 fantasies, whereas the Miata already has a long history and following and can't just get away with hiking the price by 50-100%.
Fiats have basic interiors, and in most markets, Fiat and Mazda are on the same plane.
I think maybe a 10-15% price difference.
Also, I hope that's just a mule interior stand in, cause that's a DIRECT CLONE of the Miata's intetior
Quote from: 2o6 on September 28, 2015, 12:50:37 PM
Also, I hope that's just a mule interior stand in, cause that's a DIRECT CLONE of the Miata's intetior
That wouldn't be unprecedented:
(http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/2016-scion-ia-first-drive-11-1280x720.jpg)
But hey, at least it's a nice interior! I hope the front end of the Fiat comes out looking better than in the spy photos, though.
Quote from: ifcar on September 28, 2015, 12:58:02 PM
That wouldn't be unprecedented:
(http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/2016-scion-ia-first-drive-11-1280x720.jpg)
But hey, at least it's a nice interior! I hope the front end of the Fiat comes out looking better than in the spy photos, though.
Yeah, the iA seems disappointing. If they had an iA hatch (Mazda 2) I'd forgive them
Quote from: Rockraven on September 28, 2015, 11:51:52 AM
Because it will be built on the same line as the Miata in Japan, that's why.
Using bespoke body panels in a lower production run(not just he car, but the parts).
I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but thinking a more powerful and lower production italian (Branded) roadster is going to be within a few K of the mass market japanese car is pure fantasy IMO.
I'm really doubting they give the Fiata the 240 hp engine. That's a huge step up from 155 hp. That could mean new powertrain components, new chassis tuning, all sorts of stuff.
The proportions are ass
Doesn't look great in the pics. Wouldn't surprise me if the base model is equivalently trimmed to the top Miata and a couple thousand more expensive. That's what I would do if I were them.
Tail lights are an improvement over the Mazda. I think I prefer the Mazda front end styling.
I just don't understand how Mazda would let happen:
1. Fiat (Chrysler) stealing their platform
2. Fiat (Chrysler) ruining the balance with all that extra power
Italian sports cars are supposed to be Italian...
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 29, 2015, 06:36:31 AM
I just don't understand how Mazda would let happen:
1. Fiat (Chrysler) stealing their platform
2. Fiat (Chrysler) ruining the balance with all that extra power
Italian sports cars are supposed to be Italian...
Probably because Mazda needs the money.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 29, 2015, 06:36:31 AM
I just don't understand how Mazda would let happen:
1. Fiat (Chrysler) stealing their platform
2. Fiat (Chrysler) ruining the balance with all that extra power
Italian sports cars are supposed to be Italian...
1. So... Toyota stole Subaru's platform (BRZ/FRS)???
2. The 1.4T MultiAir is SMALLER and most likely LIGHTER than the 2.0 SkyActive, and power level isn't even confirmed yet.
Nothing wrong with an Italian sportscar that will be RELIABLE.
Quote from: MrH on September 28, 2015, 08:21:07 PM
I'm really doubting they give the Fiata the 240 hp engine. That's a huge step up from 155 hp. That could mean new powertrain components, new chassis tuning, all sorts of stuff.
You guys are starting to sound like the MSN Autos comments section.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 29, 2015, 07:51:08 AM
1. So... Toyota stole Subaru's platform (BRZ/FRS)???
2. The 1.4T MultiAir is SMALLER and most likely LIGHTER than the 2.0 SkyActive, and power level isn't even confirmed yet.
Nothing wrong with an Italian sportscar that will be RELIABLE.
Re: #2
Not so much. I listened to an interview with Dave Coleman who is a big wig for Mazda's chassis design. Remember him? He was the Sport Compact Car dude. Anyway someone asked him why Mazda didn't do the 2.5L.... everyone thought it was just a punched out 2.0L, but in actuality it's a completely different engine. Mazda doesn't just use one head/block and change the guts; they redo the whole engines apparently as it doesn't cost much more to do.
Point of all that being the 2.0 may be optimized for it's size, so the 1.4T might not be an easy fit. Especially if that 1.4T head/block are sized to accommodate bigger displacements. Might be closer to a 2.0L itself in external size, along with the turbo and associated plumbing.
Re: #1
Freeze Breeze was a legit collaborative effort.
I am tentative as hell about this Fiata thing. Miata is good, FCA makes fun cars but this thing has the potential to be a real mess.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 29, 2015, 07:51:08 AM
1. So... Toyota stole Subaru's platform (BRZ/FRS)???
2. The 1.4T MultiAir is SMALLER and most likely LIGHTER than the 2.0 SkyActive, and power level isn't even confirmed yet.
Nothing wrong with an Italian sportscar that will be RELIABLE.
Do you have any numbers to back up #2? I would think Mazda's 2.0 is already pretty light.
Quote from: thecarnut on September 29, 2015, 08:13:13 AM
Do you have any numbers to back up #2? I would think Mazda's 2.0 is already pretty light.
I couldn't find the weight specs of either engine after a brief search, so why assume the 1.4 is heavier just because it makes more power?
Quote from: Rockraven on September 29, 2015, 08:27:45 AM
I couldn't find the weight specs of either engine after a brief search, so why assume the 1.4 is heavier just because it makes more power?
Why assume the 2.0 is heavier because it's a bigger displacement?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 29, 2015, 06:36:31 AM
I just don't understand how Mazda would let happen:
1. Fiat (Chrysler) stealing their platform
2. Fiat (Chrysler) ruining the balance with all that extra power
Italian sports cars are supposed to be Italian...
Excess capacity and a desire to spread what's likely a large developmental cost across more volume.
Quote from: thecarnut on September 29, 2015, 08:30:15 AM
Why assume the 2.0 is heavier because it's a bigger displacement?
I said the 1.4 is
most likely lighter, because of the smaller displacement. Look, there's a lot of unknowns still, and we don't have a clear picture of the final styling. There's a new choice in the lightweight efficient sportscar market instead of just the Miata (which I still love BTW), and I for one am excited about that.
Displacement is not a good indicator of engine weight, especially when you factor in turbocharging. 2.0L is all aluminum and optimized for its size; 1.4L is turbocharged with an iron block. Obviously within limits... i.e. a 1L won't weigh more than a 7L anything but in this case I can't see how the 1.4L will be lighter, with its heavy block and turbo components. Not really a big deal but worth putting to bed.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 29, 2015, 08:52:13 AM
Displacement is not a good indicator of engine weight, especially when you factor in turbocharging. 2.0L is all aluminum and optimized for its size; 1.4L is turbocharged with an iron block. Obviously within limits... i.e. a 1L won't weigh more than a 7L anything but in this case I can't see how the 1.4L will be lighter, with its heavy block and turbo components. Not really a big deal but worth putting to bed.
Agreed. I assumed the MultiAir was an aluminum engine. My bad.
I have a hard time believing that there's a big weight difference in either direction. And, if there is one, I would think it would be in Mazda's favor, given their emphasis on light design and especially that the 2.0l is not turbocharged (and not intercooled, but not sure if the Fiat engine is either).
Quote from: TBR on September 29, 2015, 09:50:02 AM
I have a hard time believing that there's a big weight difference in either direction. And, if there is one, I would think it would be in Mazda's favor, given their emphasis on light design and especially that the 2.0l is not turbocharged (and not intercooled, but not sure if the Fiat engine is either).
The Fiat motor is intercooled.
The Fiat motor has to be tiny, it's got to fit in most of Fiat's city cars
Quote from: 2o6 on September 29, 2015, 10:06:58 AM
The Fiat motor has to be tiny, it's got to fit in most of Fiat's city cars
With an iron block, even if it's small it can still be heavy.
The 1.4 is a Jeep motor, therefore it is heavy. :devil:
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 29, 2015, 11:05:10 AM
The 1.4 is a Jeep motor, therefore it is heavy. :devil:
1.4T @ 180 hp = 128 hp/litre
2.0 @ 155 hp = 77.5 hp/litre
:devil: :devil:
Looks nice. A little bit Miataish...but then, Miata was always a little Fiatish and Alphaish and...
Quote from: Rockraven on September 29, 2015, 11:47:02 AM
1.4T @ 180 hp = 128 hp/litre
2.0 @ 155 hp = 77.5 hp/litre
:devil: :devil:
Mighty Max 2.0 @ 92 hp = 46 hp/litre
Mighty Max 46 hp/litre @ 5500 rpm = 120 rpm/hp/litre
120!
:devil: :devil: :devil:
That's quite the front overhang...
I'll wait for official pics. Hard to tell anything from these photos.
Officially revealed. Specs look good. Style looks like a bad Photochop.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2017-fiat-124-spider-photos-and-info-news (http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2017-fiat-124-spider-photos-and-info-news)
(http://media.caranddriver.com/images/15q4/662481/2017-fiat-124-spider-photos-and-info-news-car-and-driver-photo-663774-s-original.jpg)
(http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/51/2017-fiat-124-spider-inline1-photo-664049-s-original.jpg)
(http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/51/2017-fiat-124-spider-inline1-2-photo-664050-s-original.jpg)
It looks even worse in actual colors. I hope I never see one on the road.
This looks like ass.
It looks like a bad TVR prototype from 2002.
Those headlights are horrendous.
I don't think it's that bad. :huh: I kind of like it.
I figured it'd be more powerful, though the torque numbers are promising.
I'm getting S2K vibes from it, which isn't bad, but something just isn't meshing well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm waiting to see the Abarth version, which will get different sheetmetal.
Yea I'll just stick with the Miata
(http://www.thephotobooth.net/photos/i-CrtrPpC/0/O/i-CrtrPpC.jpg)
(http://www.thephotobooth.net/photos/i-mnVLvfg/0/O/i-mnVLvfg.jpg)
I guess it's not terrible in blue? Although I'd much rather see that blue on the ND.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 18, 2015, 12:42:38 AM
(http://www.thephotobooth.net/photos/i-CrtrPpC/0/O/i-CrtrPpC.jpg)
(http://www.thephotobooth.net/photos/i-mnVLvfg/0/O/i-mnVLvfg.jpg)
I guess it's not terrible in blue? Although I'd much rather see that blue on the ND.
I actually really like that. It looks more Miata-y than the Miata.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 18, 2015, 12:51:19 AM
I actually really like that. It looks more Miata-y than the Miata.
(http://img.vast.com/320x240/-7012620900415622776)
Maybe it would look better slammed to the ground like the original.
Still roly poly and the wheels look like something off a mid 2000s Sebring Touring. Not crazy about the front or rear end either. I thought Italians were supposed to make cars look good?
Reminds me of an NB with some retro Fiat touches. I'm undecided on how I feel about the styling. Front end details seem a little awkward, but may look better in a lighter or brighter color. They should have made some effort to differentiate the interior from the Mazda.
If you looked at the two cars without the badges, you would assume the Miata was the Fiat and the 124 was the Mazda. Weird.
I guess I'm alone... I love it. I think it looks much better than the Miata... the design seems more "appropriate" and traditional for this kind of car. Plus, it has the engine from the 500 Abarth.
They stole the Dodge Dart plastic grille
This car screams "money is tight at FCA".
The body styling looks cheap and dumb, and probably was rushed to completion. The interior is the same as the Miata, and the body generally looks strange and awkwardly executed. Like they didn't have time to finish out and refine the concept.
I feel like whatever stage the Alfa version was at looks sixteen times better than tbhs
I like the Fiat. I do get a TVR vibe from it. I miss TVR.
But I'm not sure I like it more than the MX-5.
And the good news is you get to pay more for that.
:lol:
This thing is going to be like a saab 9-2x in about 5 years.
Though sold with a higher sticker, it will languish on CL's ad's for months with such pleas as "It's the same as a Miata, only ITALIAN and much cheaper", "Rare Italian Mazda, for thousands less!!!!", "Please buy it, Please buy it, Please buy it"
Or best of all
"Will trade for ND miata plus CASH on my end".
:lol:
I love Italian cars, and old fiat roadsters. This however is just wrong, and I wish it would never have seen the light of day. It simultaneously cheapens both the Miata brand and Fiat's heritage.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 18, 2015, 07:58:37 AM
This thing is going to be like a saab 9-2x in about 5 years.
Though sold with a higher sticker, it will languish on CL's ad's for months with such pleas as "It's the same as a Miata, only ITALIAN and much cheaper", "Rare Italian Mazda, for thousands less!!!!", "Please buy it, Please buy it, Please buy it"
Or best of all
"Will trade for ND miata plus CASH on my end".
:lol:
I love Italian cars, and old fiat roadsters. This however is just wrong, and I wish it would never have seen the light of day. It simultaneously cheapens both the Miata brand and Fiat's heritage.
I'll take two!
The little crease that kicks up above the door handle is reminiscent of the original 124 Spider, as are the bumps in the hood/bonnet. I an disappointed with the cabin, however, because it is a straight-up carryover from the Mazda with no effort to differentiate it from the donor car. I can only assume the budget wasn't able to stretch for a more Italianesque interior.
At least Fiat resisted the temptation to stick the face from the 500 onto it, like they've done with everything they've made recently!
I dig the rear, but the front pales in comparison tot he Miata.
Quote from: TBR on November 18, 2015, 05:48:02 AM
If you looked at the two cars without the badges, you would assume the Miata was the Fiat and the 124 was the Mazda. Weird.
To be fair, I never thought the original 124 looked very Italian. Looked more British to me. Like a Sunbeam, MG, or Triumph (TR6 in particular).
Frank Markus likes it.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-look-review/ (http://www.motortrend.com/news/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-look-review/)
I am no real familiar with Fiats in general or the old 124 in particular, but when you look at the old car and new car side by side you can see what they were going for.
Does it work? Not in my opinion, but I am sure there will be enough folks that like it that Fiat will make some decent coin on the project.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 18, 2015, 10:03:33 AM
I dig the rear, but the front pales in comparison tot he Miata.
Huh, I like the front but not the rear. The rear has way too big of an overhang for me.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 18, 2015, 05:54:44 AM
I guess I'm alone... I love it. I think it looks much better than the Miata... the design seems more "appropriate" and traditional for this kind of car. Plus, it has the engine from the 500 Abarth.
The more I look at it, the more I like it. It has a bit of a Z8 feel to it.
(http://i.imgur.com/qBOxUdd.jpg?1)
(http://media.caranddriver.com/images/15q4/662481/2017-fiat-124-spider-photos-and-info-news-car-and-driver-photo-663774-s-original.jpg)
Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 18, 2015, 10:39:54 AM
I am no real familiar with Fiats in general or the old 124 in particular, but when you look at the old car and new car side by side you can see what they were going for.
Does it work? Not in my opinion, but I am sure there will be enough folks that like it that Fiat will make some decent coin on the project.
Actually, I have to wonder if that will be the case.
The miata has soaked up the vast majority of the old school british/italian guys and of course the modern roadster market. Who's left?? Die hard Fiat guys? Is there really any of them left? Plus, why pay more for a mazda with a fiat badge. It isn't even really a fiat, so why would the italian fans care?
This car will sell, briefly, to the very few that are willing to buy it(and look at it). Once that's done this thing will languish and attract HUGE rebates(I'm talking saab style rebates at the end of their run). To tell you the truth, even with 8K on the hood of one of these I'd still pay more(the 8K might make it 1K cheaper than a comparable miata) for the miata. Because in 10 years I'll atleast have something enthusiasts want, instead of a flash in the pan(it's rare because nobody wanted it) heavier uglier fiata.
Fiata, that's mine by the way.
I like it.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 18, 2015, 10:45:45 AM
The more I look at it, the more I like it. It has a bit of a Z8 feel to it.
(http://i.imgur.com/qBOxUdd.jpg?1)
(http://media.caranddriver.com/images/15q4/662481/2017-fiat-124-spider-photos-and-info-news-car-and-driver-photo-663774-s-original.jpg)
Those two look nothing alike, other than both being black. :huh:
Damn, Z8. Why did that have to get brought up. Off to car listings I go.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 18, 2015, 10:52:20 AM
Damn, Z8. Why did that have to get brought up. Off to car listings I go.
Andddddd I'm back.
Jesus H Christ these things are even worse now then when I looked at them years ago. A quarter of a god damn mil for a Z8, you can scrape the bottom of the barrel for 175K. That's nice 430 money, I'll take the Italian.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 18, 2015, 10:54:51 AM
Andddddd I'm back.
Jesus H Christ these things are even worse now then when I looked at them years ago. A quarter of a god damn mil for a Z8, you can scrape the bottom of the barrel for 175K. That's nice 430 money, I'll take the Italian.
Lol, yeah I was going to mention the insane prices the Z8 is commanding.
I love those Z8's.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 18, 2015, 11:01:56 AM
I love those Z8's.
Me too. It seems like they are loved more now than when they were in production. They were never lauded for their performance/handling, but man... what a looker.
I saw a guy who had a Z8. Slushbox, he was handicapped.
I feel like Fiat spent all th development money in putting the 1.4t in there.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/1524598126690168133.jpg)
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/1524598126849092677.jpg)
I want one. Hopefully I can get a Classico with manual and LSD.
I wonder what the colour choices will be.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 18, 2015, 11:21:42 AM
I feel like Fiat spent all th development money in putting the 1.4t in there.
Yeah, but the FRS/BRZ are IDENTICAL, sharing engine, interior, design... and it gets a pass. The Spider shares the excellent Miata interior, but has its own styling and ENGINE, and you guys dump on it. LOL.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 18, 2015, 11:08:10 AM
I saw a guy who had a Z8. Slushbox, he was handicapped.
Technically, I believe that would be an Alpina Roadster. (Not trying to call you out, just sharing info :mrcool:)
Quote from: Rockraven on November 18, 2015, 03:40:20 PM
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/1524598126690168133.jpg)
Damn, it looks fantastic in that color combination.
I don't know what you guys who are bitching about the looks are going on about: looks damn good to me. I like it.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 18, 2015, 03:53:34 PM
Technically, I believe that would be an Alpina Roadster. (Not trying to call you out, just sharing info :mrcool:)
Yes, BMW Z8s were 6MT only. For 2003, Z8s were made by Alpina and sold through BMW dealers as Alpina models. These used a smaller and less powerful Alpina-tuned V8 engine and were slushbox only.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 18, 2015, 03:40:20 PM
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/1524598126690168133.jpg)
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/1524598126849092677.jpg)
I want one. Hopefully I can get a Classico with manual and LSD.
I wonder what the colour choices will be.
I like it better in white. It's easier to make out some of the front end details than on the black car in the earlier photos.
Yes, the white one is by far the best looking up to this point.
It's like a surprised MX5.
Yeah, I agree. The white car makes me hate it significantly less. Wish the interior was more bespoke
I like it more in the blue that was posted.
But yikes. That fiat badge. It already makes me cringe because I just mentally associate it with POS 500s and 500Ls :lol:
It's almost as negative as my reaction to Chevy's hideous gold bow tie
It shouldn't exist, that's for sure.
Quote from: MrH on November 18, 2015, 07:10:32 PM
I like it more in the blue that was posted.
But yikes. That fiat badge. It already makes me cringe because I just mentally associate it with POS 500s and 500Ls :lol:
It's almost as negative as my reaction to Chevy's hideous gold bow tie
A scorpion will look much better.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/1524598126690168133.jpg)
This is the best photo I've seen so far. In white, and looking at it from this angle, its a pretty good looking car. It also addresses my biggest stylistic complaint with the ND MX-5 Miata, namely the squinty headlights. I would have preferred the Fiat's headlights to be a bit rounder still and lose that awkward pointy bit near the grille, but I guess you can't have everything.
The headlights and the "pointy bit" are the cornerstones of its 124 throwback styling.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 18, 2015, 08:15:23 PM
The headlights and the "pointy bit" are the cornerstones of its 124 throwback styling.
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--ewzV--Gj--/1349656855155047205.jpg)
On the original, the inside of the headlight bezel was pointy, not the headlight itself.
The current Porsche 911 does a wonderful job of reinterpreting classic round headlights for the modern era.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02580/Porsche-911-50-Yea_2580775k.jpg)
Why remain confined by sealed beam headlights? Headlights can be so much more than round.
I like the Miata better. And the power difference can't make up for the ugliness.
The power difference is paltry. They put a turbo on their motor, and can only muster 5hp more than the Mazder?
I guess I'll wait for the reviews, maybe it has a nice thick torque curve, or something. :\
Quote from: Laconian on November 18, 2015, 09:57:14 PM
The power difference is paltry. They put a turbo on their motor, and can only muster 5hp more than the Mazder?
I guess I'll wait for the reviews, maybe it has a nice thick torque curve, or something. :\
The MultiAir gets 160hp (many are saying it's actually 170 hp) from 1.4 litres = 114.29 - 121.43 hp/litre.
The SkyActiv gets 155 hp from 2.0 litres = 77.5 hp/litre.
Some early comparos...
Engine:
124: 1.4L turbocharged I-4
MX-5: 2.0L I-4
HP:
124: 160 @ 5,500 rpm Peak power 500 rpm lower than the Miata.
MX-5: 155 @ 6,000 rpm
TORQUE:
124: 184 lb-ft @ 2,500 rpm Wow. Peak torque at 2500 rpm!
MX-5: 148 lb-ft @4,600 rpm
WHEELBASE:
124: 90.9 in
MX-5: 90.9 in
LENGTH:
124: 159.6 in
MX-5: 154.1 in
WIDTH:
124: 68.5 in
MX-5: 68.3 in
HEIGHT:
124: 48.5 in
MX-5: 48.8 in
WEIGHT:
124: 2,436/2,476 lb (manual/automatic)
MX-5: 2,332/2,381 lb (manual/auto)
God, that cream colored one with brown interior is beautiful. I want one with thin Italian colored racing stripes. And a 190 hp tune.
Looks good in white, and while the interior styling is the same in both cars, I like that Fiat appears to offer a brown leather interior.
I wonder if people will try to swap out Miata seats for Fiat seats? :lol:
"For now, the only blue-paint option is on the 124 automatic-only launch models. Paint choices at the beginning of the regular production run are Rosso Passione (red clear coat), Bianco Gelato (white clear coat), Nero Cinema (jet black metallic), Grigio Argento (gray metallic), Grigio Moda (dark gray metallic), Bronzo Magnetico (bronze metallic), and for the Lusso ("luxury") model only, tri-coat Bianco Perla (crystal white pearl)."
Not a huge palette improvement over the Miata, but Bronzo Magnetico sounds all sorts of awesome.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 18, 2015, 03:53:34 PM
Technically, I believe that would be an Alpina Roadster. (Not trying to call you out, just sharing info :mrcool:)
:huh: It looked just like a Z8, probably Alpina.
Is a 240 hp Abarth going to be a thing or was that just a rumor?
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 19, 2015, 06:55:28 AM
:huh: It looked just like a Z8, probably Alpina.
Yup - same body, but less powerful engine, softer suspension, automatic transmission, and some minor interior changes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Z8#Alpina_V8_Roadster
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 19, 2015, 12:17:54 PM
Yup - same body, but less powerful engine, softer suspension, automatic transmission, and some minor interior changes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Z8#Alpina_V8_Roadster
I thought Alpinas were supposed to be hardcore.
I understand FIAT has delayed production until the mechanical engineers figure out how to make the engine, gearbox and differential leak lubricants, while the electrical engineers develop more fault prone electrical connections and the body guys work on a steel mix that rusts at humidity levels above 5%. :lol:
Seriously, it's a decent looking car. I especially like the front end and how it harkens back to the 1968 124 Sport Spider I once owned.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 19, 2015, 12:43:02 PM
I thought Alpinas were supposed to be hardcore.
Alpinas are more luxurious and cruiser-ish. I think all of their cars have been automatics.
Dinan is the more hardcore one I believe.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 19, 2015, 10:30:36 AM
Is a 240 hp Abarth going to be a thing or was that just a rumor?
Fiat has said it's going to happen. If it turns out to offer only a flappy-paddle autotragic like the 4C, I'll be pissed.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 18, 2015, 10:45:45 AM
The more I look at it, the more I like it. It has a bit of a Z8 feel to it.
(http://i.imgur.com/qBOxUdd.jpg?1)
(http://media.caranddriver.com/images/15q4/662481/2017-fiat-124-spider-photos-and-info-news-car-and-driver-photo-663774-s-original.jpg)
Damn, the Z8 was fucking gorgeous. It just gets better and better looking.
I think it looks more like a TVR V8S.
(http://www.motorstown.com/images/tvr-v8s-08.jpg)
Still wish I would have picked up that tvr project a few years back. I love tvrs.
The limited edition Prima Edizione... sadly auto only.
(http://www.fiatusa.com/assets/images/2017/vehicles/spider/overview/promo/2017-FIAT-124-Spider-Prima-Edition.jpg)
Fiat USA has some more info up. The Classica is exactly what I want, and doesn't have what I don't want. AND, it has the LSD! The only thing missing is the tan leather trimmed interior of the Lusso, but I can live without it. Looks great in Grigio Argento. Hopefully that Blue Mica will be an option on the Classica soon.
http://www.fiatusa.com/en/spider/ (http://www.fiatusa.com/en/spider/)
I think what is killing this for me is the wheels. They need some old phone dial wheels or some BBS mesh style things. The more I see the body the more I am OK with it; particularly the front. But the wheels look like some shit they found on an old Chrysler Sebring. Just kills the car. For my money, new, or fuck it used too, still would rather do the ND. But I "get this". Hopefully this is an option at the rental counter. In fact that's probably where the bulk of these will end up
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 20, 2015, 07:20:19 PM
I think what is killing this for me is the wheels. They need some old phone dial wheels or some BBS mesh style things. The more I see the body the more I am OK with it; particularly the front. But the wheels look like some shit they found on an old Chrysler Sebring. Just kills the car. For my money, new, or fuck it used too, still would rather do the ND. But I "get this". Hopefully this is an option at the rental counter. In fact that's probably where the bulk of these will end up
It would look perfect with silver steelies.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 20, 2015, 07:20:19 PM
I think what is killing this for me is the wheels. They need some old phone dial wheels or some BBS mesh style things. The more I see the body the more I am OK with it; particularly the front. But the wheels look like some shit they found on an old Chrysler Sebring. Just kills the car.
:rolleyes: Have some cheese with that whine. "Ermagehrd teh wheelz are sooooooo much like a 2002 Chrysler Sebring's!!one!"
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 20, 2015, 07:20:19 PM
I think what is killing this for me is the wheels. They need some old phone dial wheels or some BBS mesh style things. The more I see the body the more I am OK with it; particularly the front. But the wheels look like some shit they found on an old Chrysler Sebring. Just kills the car. For my money, new, or fuck it used too, still would rather do the ND. But I "get this". Hopefully this is an option at the rental counter. In fact that's probably where the bulk of these will end up
The whole reason Fiat bought Chrysler was so that they could get their hands on the wheels used by the Sebring.
Quote from: 93JC on November 20, 2015, 09:44:43 PM
:rolleyes: Have some cheese with that whine. "Ermagehrd teh wheelz are sooooooo much like a 2002 Chrysler Sebring's!!one!"
+1
After seeing it in red, I love it. It's got all the right styling cues from the original, with better proportions than the Miata, IMHO.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-J1ec16lKx74/VkyZKU6jpgI/AAAAAAABPKM/ODsxzX6p-es/s1600/Fiat-Euro-124-Spider-3.jpg)
Should be a lot of tuning options for the turbo motor, and the sound it can make in Abarth form we already know is intoxicating. As for the wheels, who gives a rip about what the stock wheels look like. Maybe a nice set of Panasports or Campagnolos would fit it fine...
(http://vpstestbringatrailercom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/1978-Fiat-124-Spider.jpg)
(http://cdn.sparky.ch/auto/bilder/1600045-L-FIAT-124+Spider-Abarth+Rally.jpg)
This car is my new sports car obsession...
The styling is growing on me.
I agree, that the styling is growing on me, and the wheels are still pretty fugly. I still think the ND is better looking by a long shot, but I'm becoming OK with this
Quote from: ChrisV on November 21, 2015, 10:50:28 AM
This car is my new sports car obsession...
Mine too. The styling just keeps growing on me. I don't think I've been as excited as this about a new car for ten years.
I still would rather have the ND mostly because I don't trust Fiat anything to stay together.
Quote from: MX793 on November 21, 2015, 05:25:41 AM
The whole reason Fiat bought Chrysler was so that they could get their hands on the wheels used by the Sebring.
Lmao, that elicited a hearty belly laugh.
I suppose once these things are selling well under MSRP it won't be no thang to buy a set of decent looking wheels. Still detracts a lot from the car's looks and is extra money one would have to spend to make the car look decent.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 21, 2015, 12:17:46 PM
I still would rather have the ND mostly because I don't trust Fiat anything to stay together.
:facepalm:
It's built by Mazda
Quote from: mzziaz on November 21, 2015, 12:34:37 PM
:facepalm:
It's built by Mazda
....with a Fiat engine.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 21, 2015, 12:17:46 PM
I still would rather have the ND mostly because I don't trust Fiat anything to stay together.
Fiat engines have always done well. it's the electrical systems and bad Russian steel that got them int trouble in the '70s and '80s. Since this is mostly Miata, then there should be nothing to worry about.
Yeah, this Fiat reliability thing is tiresome. Their powertrains today as as good as anyone else's. As to the wheels, I'm not a fan of them either but those are probably the 17" on the Lusso models. In any case they are the easiest part of the car to customize and we probably haven't seen the basic 16" ones on the Classica yet, which is the car I'm most interested in.
Lol, I still love the Miata, but now it looks all weird and squinty-eyed.
IDK man, they still score pretty low in reliability tests, and I have a few friends who had Fiats that were total shitshows.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 20, 2015, 06:29:32 PM
The limited edition Prima Edizione... sadly auto only.
(http://www.fiatusa.com/assets/images/2017/vehicles/spider/overview/promo/2017-FIAT-124-Spider-Prima-Edition.jpg)
Fiat USA has some more info up. The Classica is exactly what I want, and doesn't have what I don't want. AND, it has the LSD! The only thing missing is the tan leather trimmed interior of the Lusso, but I can live without it. Looks great in Grigio Argento. Hopefully that Blue Mica will be an option on the Classica soon.
http://www.fiatusa.com/en/spider/ (http://www.fiatusa.com/en/spider/)
Wow, it looks great there.
Is there going to be an Alfa version too?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 21, 2015, 03:25:40 PM
Is there going to be an Alfa version too?
No. But an Abarth version is coming with the 4c's engine.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 21, 2015, 03:25:40 PM
Is there going to be an Alfa version too?
No, this is why the car is a Fiat.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 21, 2015, 03:51:39 PM
No. But an Abarth version is coming with the 4c's engine.
Interesting. I still think I would prefer a Miata with cams and coilovers.
Quote from: Raza on November 21, 2015, 02:57:00 PM
Wow, it looks great there.
Yeah, in that blue, I actually really like it. I still like the Miata better though.
The more I see, the more I like it. Oddly, this is one example where black is the worst color for a sports car (though perhaps it looks better in person in black than in photos).
Sadly I can see the abarth going over 40k, tough sell unless it's absolutely balls to the wall (performance wise).
Quote from: 2o6 on November 21, 2015, 01:55:01 PM
IDK man, they still score pretty low in reliability tests, and I have a few friends who had Fiats that were total shitshows.
Again, the engines tend to be quite good. I owned old Fiats and they were decent, other than the wonky electricals and rust. The friends I have with new Abarths love them.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 22, 2015, 08:45:01 AM
Again, the engines tend to be quite good. I owned old Fiats and they were decent, other than the wonky electricals and rust. The friends I have with new Abarths love them.
Go to any 500/Abarth Forum, or even CR or JDP, and there are plenty of complaints of engines blowing at <50K miles. 500s also seem to have transmission issues (not a problem with this car since it'll use a completely different trans).
Quote from: ChrisV on November 22, 2015, 08:45:01 AM
Again, the engines tend to be quite good. I owned old Fiats and they were decent, other than the wonky electricals and rust. The friends I have with new Abarths love them.
Fiat reliability from the 70s has absolutely nothing to do with their reliability today.
The 500 is a quality nightmare.
Fiat wont be around in 2020. They are circling the drain in the resale market in the same way Saab and other now defunct brands were before their respective demises.
That said a dirt cheap 124 Spider with coilovers/brakes/tires/bigger turbo/straight exhaust would be pretty damn cool.
Lime green for me. :ohyeah:
(http://s17.postimg.org/i7a9ijtxr/Unbenannt_1.jpg)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 22, 2015, 01:16:35 PM
Fiat wont be around in 2020. They are circling the drain in the resale market in the same way Saab and other now defunct brands were before their respective demises.
That said a dirt cheap 124 Spider with coilovers/brakes/tires/bigger turbo/straight exhaust would be pretty damn cool.
You're overestimating Fiat's dependance on the NA market. They're doing fine globally, and will continue to do so for a long time. I do think they're beating the 500 thing to death, but hopefully the 124 is the first of a long line of products beyond the 500 range.
Bunch of Debbie downers on this forum.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 22, 2015, 01:19:49 PM
Lime green for me. :ohyeah:
(http://s17.postimg.org/i7a9ijtxr/Unbenannt_1.jpg)
Ewww. No.
Nothing wrong with Fiat reliability. Most customer complaints are because they didn't realize they bought a small car with small car performance. :wanker:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/fiat/500/reliability (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/fiat/500/reliability)
As to all the supposed engine issues, there have been no more than any other marque. Go to any car forum... Chevy, Ford, even Toyota, and you'll find someone that is having powertrain issues.
Fiat's power train and quality issues are most definitely higher than average - there's no real disputing that fact.
I think it's a nifty car, though.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 22, 2015, 01:26:34 PM
Bunch of Debbie downers on this forum.
Of course. This whole forum is about never spending any money, but doing everything you can to make as much money as you can, and casting serious doubt that anything but the boring establishment cars can ever have any measure of success. In the future of CarSPIN, cars will be sold like cloth, by length only, and they will all be made by Toyota. But no one will buy them, because we'll all wait for them to hit the used market, but there won't be any used market anymore. Also, Infiniti, despite being owned by Toyota, will have taken over the world, and we'll all cling to our Subaru Outbacks while everyone sleeps in their automated cars on their way to work.
CarSPIN future will be like Mad Max, except sad. Sad Max. And everyone drives a Camry of different wheelbase length. The cars will all be the same color as the rope enthusiasts will use to hang themselves.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 22, 2015, 01:26:37 PM
Ewww. No.
I wouldn't buy it in that color, but I do think it actually kind of works for the shape. And the fact that it's "Italian" means it can get away with being a bit flashier.
Quote from: Raza on November 22, 2015, 03:46:36 PM
I wouldn't buy it in that color, but I do think it actually kind of works for the shape. And the fact that it's "Italian" means it can get away with being a bit flashier.
That's the colour that draws idiots to Chevy Sparks and Ford Fiestas like a bug zapper to brain-dead mosquitos.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 22, 2015, 04:16:43 PM
That's the colour that draws idiots to Chevy Sparks and Ford Fiestas like a bug zapper to brain-dead mosquitos.
Yeah, true. Those cars look horrible in that color.
Infiniti is owned by Nissan. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Rockraven on November 22, 2015, 01:25:53 PM
You're overestimating Fiat's dependance on the NA market. They're doing fine globally, and will continue to do so for a long time. I do think they're beating the 500 thing to death, but hopefully the 124 is the first of a long line of products beyond the 500 range.
I would like to see Fiat move away from being the Italian Mini in the US market.
Quote from: MX793 on November 22, 2015, 04:50:37 PM
I would like to see Fiat move away from being the Italian Mini in the US market.
They're not even good at being Mini
Say what you will, but a base Mini has refinement of a 320i.
A 500 feels like a Yaris
Quote from: MX793 on November 22, 2015, 04:50:37 PM
I would like to see Fiat move away from being the Italian Mini in the US market.
Yeah, the 500 lineup is ridiculous. I'd like to see the Panda, Punto, and a new X1/9 in the NA lineup.
Ohh a new x1/9, that would be sweet. A true affordable mid engined italian miata fighter.
Quote from: Raza on November 22, 2015, 03:45:42 PM
Of course. This whole forum is about never spending any money, but doing everything you can to make as much money as you can, and casting serious doubt that anything but the boring establishment cars can ever have any measure of success. In the future of CarSPIN, cars will be sold like cloth, by length only, and they will all be made by Toyota. But no one will buy them, because we'll all wait for them to hit the used market, but there won't be any used market anymore. Also, Infiniti, despite being owned by Toyota, will have taken over the world, and we'll all cling to our Subaru Outbacks while everyone sleeps in their automated cars on their way to work.
CarSPIN future will be like Mad Max, except sad. Sad Max. And everyone drives a Camry of different wheelbase length. The cars will all be the same color as the rope enthusiasts will use to hang themselves.
Everyone.
Speaking for myself, I just don't like how the Fiat looks from most angles that have been posted so far, especially the plasticky-looking front overhang. I hope to like it more in person, because I like the idea of it.
Quote from: Raza on November 22, 2015, 03:46:36 PM
I wouldn't buy it in that color, but I do think it actually kind of works for the shape. And the fact that it's "Italian" means it can get away with being a bit flashier.
Yeah I agree, but not that hideous green. Some different pastel shades might work... light blues, yellows, etc. I'd also like to see it in a deep scarlet red.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 22, 2015, 05:39:39 PM
Yeah, the 500 lineup is ridiculous. I'd like to see the Panda, Punto, and a new X1/9 in the NA lineup.
Panda is excellent if you are OK with driving something that looks like a clown car. With the 1.4T it would be a riot. I would buy one in a heartbeat.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 22, 2015, 04:16:43 PM
That's the colour that draws idiots to Chevy Sparks and Ford Fiestas like a bug zapper to brain-dead mosquitos.
Wild, bright/Lime greens like that can work on some cars. I actually liked that bright green color that the Mazda2 came in. At least on the Mazda2 (or similarly sized vehicles). Doesn't work so well on something like a Camry or Explorer, but on a small car it somehow kind of works. Not digging it on the Fiat, though. I think a darker green, maybe BRG or maybe more of an emerald or jade green would work.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 22, 2015, 06:22:06 PM
Ohh a new x1/9, that would be sweet. A true affordable mid engined italian miata fighter.
They already have a modern-day X-1/9. Problem is they forgot to make it affordable....
(http://roa.h-cdn.co/assets/15/03/980x490/landscape_nrm_1421071416-2015-alfa-romeo-4c-spider-15-1.jpg)
Quote from: Madman on November 22, 2015, 07:45:49 PM
They already have a modern-day X-1/9. Problem is they forgot to make it affordable....
(http://roa.h-cdn.co/assets/15/03/980x490/landscape_nrm_1421071416-2015-alfa-romeo-4c-spider-15-1.jpg)
Oh yeah. They also forgot the goddamn manual. :lockedup: I'm dreading the news that the Abarth Spider will be automatic only.
I've only seen 2 cars pull off a light green... the original Dodge Challenger, and this car:
(http://images.pistonheads.com/nimg/24244/Lamborghini%20Miura%201967.14.1-L.jpg)
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k524/ouvrie/Lada%20Niva%201978-02/latestlada-05.jpg)
I will say that sampling a forum's comments is *the worst* way to judge a car's reliability.
Quote from: Rupert on November 22, 2015, 08:34:29 PM
I will say that sampling a forum's comments is *the worst* way to judge a car's reliability.
Indeed. Especially these days where people create accounts on Internet Devices just so they can complain to somebody about whatever they bought and feel heard.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 22, 2015, 01:19:49 PM
Lime green for me. :ohyeah:
(http://s17.postimg.org/i7a9ijtxr/Unbenannt_1.jpg)
That's terrible. Reminds me of a jolly rancher.
Gimme one in blue or black.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 22, 2015, 08:08:09 PM
I've only seen 2 cars pull off a light green... the original Dodge Challenger, and this car:
(http://images.pistonheads.com/nimg/24244/Lamborghini%20Miura%201967.14.1-L.jpg)
Well that's terrible too. Lime green should never go on a car.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 22, 2015, 04:34:40 PM
Infiniti is owned by Nissan. :rolleyes:
Not in the future. All will be owned by Toyota.
(Of course I know Infiniti is owned by Nissan now--but I'm talking about a post-enthusiast apocalyptic future)
Quote from: Rockraven on November 22, 2015, 07:09:51 PM
Yeah I agree, but not that hideous green. Some different pastel shades might work... light blues, yellows, etc. I'd also like to see it in a deep scarlet red.
I mean, it looks okay in that color. I could never buy a green car, though, I don't think. I'm brown, I think I'd clash with a green car.
(http://www.zpost.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=363566&stc=1&d=1269710664)
factory color
That looks weird as hell, but I dig it
Hairball Green™
Quote from: 68_427 on November 22, 2015, 11:52:45 PM
(http://www.zpost.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=363566&stc=1&d=1269710664)
factory color
Built under contract for the German Quick Response Force. Even came with its own Kevlar helmet (as shown).
I bought a Fiat!! (hot wheels "Polizia" 500 in blue)
Quote from: Rockraven on November 23, 2015, 05:18:03 AM
Built under contract for the German Quick Response Force. Even came with its own Kevlar helmet (as shown).
:rockon: :lol:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 23, 2015, 06:09:43 AM
I bought a Fiat!! (hot wheels "Polizia" 500 in blue)
Little things are coming.
Quote from: 68_427 on November 22, 2015, 11:52:45 PM
(http://www.zpost.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=363566&stc=1&d=1269710664)
factory color
Yuck.
Quote from: 68_427 on November 22, 2015, 11:52:45 PM
(http://www.zpost.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=363566&stc=1&d=1269710664)
factory color
I posted a pic of one in that colour that I saw on my drive home from work one day. I thought it looked good, but I was alone in that feeling.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 22, 2015, 04:16:43 PM
That's the colour that draws idiots to Chevy Sparks and Ford Fiestas like a bug zapper to brain-dead mosquitos.
It's the only color I'd have a Spark EV in (and the color of the one I test drove). So STFU, man.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 23, 2015, 08:55:47 AM
It's the only color I'd have a Spark EV in (and the color of the one I test drove). So STFU, man.
:lol:
Quote from: Raza on November 22, 2015, 10:02:30 PM
Not in the future. All will be owned by Toyota.
(Of course I know Infiniti is owned by Nissan now--but I'm talking about a post-enthusiast apocalyptic future)
What a bright future that will be! :mask: :confused:
(http://s23.postimg.org/517dji7hn/1919.jpg)
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 23, 2015, 11:28:07 AM
What a bright future that will be! :mask: :confused:
(http://s23.postimg.org/517dji7hn/1919.jpg)
I love the rear wheel skirts. Why not on the front, too?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 23, 2015, 11:43:50 AM
I love the rear wheel skirts. Why not on the front, too?
That's obviously reserved for the BR-Z FE (Fuel Economy) model. :ohyeah:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 23, 2015, 11:49:46 AM
That's obviously reserved for the BR-Z FE (Fuel Economy) model. :ohyeah:
I thought Toyotas required high, pointy noses on which to mount their ever-growing badges. What happens in the future? Is there a problem with the Earth's gravitational pull?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 23, 2015, 12:03:04 PM
I thought Toyotas required high, pointy noses on which to mount their ever-growing badges. What happens in the future? Is there a problem with the Earth's gravitational pull?
Whoa, that question is way to technical for me!
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 23, 2015, 12:03:04 PM
I thought Toyotas required high, pointy noses on which to mount their ever-growing badges. What happens in the future? Is there a problem with the Earth's gravitational pull?
This is heavy.
Quote from: Raza on November 26, 2015, 10:24:59 AM
A bolt of lightning!
Wha—what the hell is a jiggawatt?!
Looks like the Abarth won't get the Alfa 4C 1.75t litre after all. Fiat Group wants Alfa engines to be exclusive to Alfas. The Abarth Spider will have a boosted 1.4t making some ~200 hp.
I'm ok with this. Better chance of it ending up in the mid-30k range instead of $40k+. Plus, I'm sure it'll sound like a proper screaming Italian sportscar.
Source?
I think I might have to start saving.
Quote from: mzziaz on November 29, 2015, 10:45:58 AM
Source?
I think I might have to start saving.
http://artofgears.com/2015/11/23/2017-abarth-124-spider-with-200-hp-and-hardtop-in-the-works/ (http://artofgears.com/2015/11/23/2017-abarth-124-spider-with-200-hp-and-hardtop-in-the-works/)
http://driving.ca/fiat/auto-news/news/fiat-to-expand-abarth-with-high-performance-124-spider-500x (http://driving.ca/fiat/auto-news/news/fiat-to-expand-abarth-with-high-performance-124-spider-500x)
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/abarth-will-inject-fiat-124-spider-200-hp-send-hardtop/ (http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/abarth-will-inject-fiat-124-spider-200-hp-send-hardtop/)
(http://icdn8.digitaltrends.com/image/abarth-124-render-2-970x0.jpg)
Offer it in mono deep red or light blue, keep the lower facia blacked out, delete the stripes, offer a manual, and this may be the last new car I'll ever buy.
(http://gtspirit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/2016-Abarth-124-Spider.jpg)
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t282/mystro07/1239788892_jizz-in-my-pants.gif)
(http://sf1.viepratique.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2015/11/01-ABARTH-124-SPIDER-750x410.jpg)
(http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201511/2018-fiat-124-spider-abar-2_800x0w.jpg)
This is my favourite render so far. I like the front end treatment with the fog lights relocated, and the black side sills. The first white render above is too fussy. Combine the scarlet red one with this, and we have a winner.
Yes... I'm obsessed. :mask:
I really want to like this more. I really do.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 29, 2015, 12:35:39 PM
I really want to like this more. I really do.
Everyone has different tastes and ideas of their perfect car. I know exactly what you mean because I know the new Mustang is a really good car and most people like it, but even after studying it at the dealership, I'm just not overly fond of it.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 29, 2015, 12:07:38 PM
(http://gtspirit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/2016-Abarth-124-Spider.jpg)
I LOVE that!
Abarth, it's a good thing there aren't any fiat dealers around here. I don't need another car.
I think those renders are too close to the standard 124. I've heard the body changes to the Abarth make it a much better looking car, and that it looks quite different.
Quote from: 68_427 on November 30, 2015, 12:15:13 AM
I think those renders are too close to the standard 124. I've heard the body changes to the Abarth make it a much better looking car, and that it looks quite different.
I can't imagine it'll be anything more than front/rear facias, side skirts, and interior treatments. It's a low volume car.
I'll try to find the quote, but IIRC every piece of sheet metal is changed.
Quote from: 68_427 on November 30, 2015, 05:27:10 AM
I'll try to find the quote, but IIRC every piece of sheet metal is changed.
That would be interesting, but makes me scared of the price. All they need to do is make it look like the red one above.
I'm afraid it's still 2+ years out and $40k+.
Quote from: MrH on November 30, 2015, 07:30:27 AM
I'm afraid it's still 2+ years out and $40k+.
The word is 1 year after the Fiat launch, so summer 2017. What scares me most is 1. price, 2. transmission options (no manual).
Wat? No manual?
Quote from: mzziaz on December 01, 2015, 12:16:55 PM
Wat? No manual?
Lol no no no... that's my fear. I'm fairly confident they'll offer one.
Quote from: mzziaz on December 01, 2015, 12:16:55 PM
Wat? No manual?
Not confirmed. However, the 4C is paddle shift only, so it's not too far fetched to expect the same here. Then again, the 500 Abarth comes with a real manual, so who knows?
Quote from: MX793 on December 01, 2015, 12:29:35 PM
Not confirmed. However, the 4C is paddle shift only, so it's not too far fetched to expect the same here. Then again, the 500 Abarth comes with a real manual, so who knows?
9 in 10 Abarth 500 sales are manuals, so it would be stupid not to offer it.
Quote from: MX793 on December 01, 2015, 12:29:35 PM
Not confirmed. However, the 4C is paddle shift only, so it's not too far fetched to expect the same here. Then again, the 500 Abarth comes with a real manual, so who knows?
Not only that, the Abarth was manual only for a time.
Quote from: Raza on December 01, 2015, 03:45:39 PM
Not only that, the Abarth was manual only for a time.
It still offers a manual... they introduced an automatic option to enhance sales. The stick Abarth still outsells the auto 9 to 1.
Road test of the new Spider. It's in Italian, and I wish the guy would STFU and kill the music so we could hear what it sounds like. Still, looks great and I really want one. :wub:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxJ6ouY5ZkA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxJ6ouY5ZkA)
And what's up with the different headlights? I prefer these...
(http://ramseyfiat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/17-spider-classico-red.jpg)
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/552c0f7fe4b04cd8bb087253/t/5651d778e4b0d031533ec6da/1448204154243/)
...over these.
(http://www.listadecarros.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Fiat-124-Spider-2017-1.jpg)
The more I look at it, the more I prefer the miata actually.
Front end is kind of busy. Split grille. Three different light fixtures on each side. Nothing really lines up with anything else.
Still a good looking vehicle, though.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 08, 2016, 11:23:07 AM
Front end is kind of busy. Split grille. Three different light fixtures on each side. Nothing really lines up with anything else.
Still a good looking vehicle, though.
The grilles are fine, but yeah the turn signal and fog lights could have been done better. I like the Classica because in basic form it eliminates the fog lights (red car above), and they look like intakes instead.
The grille is fine on its own, but add in the mishmash and weird lined-up-but-not-quite stuff on its sides and...meh. I'm just bein picky.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 08, 2016, 12:11:51 PM
The grille is fine on its own, but add in the mishmash and weird lined-up-but-not-quite stuff on its sides and...meh. I'm just bein picky.
No, I agree with you.
Quote from: Rockraven on January 30, 2016, 05:08:52 PM
And what's up with the different headlights? I prefer these...
(http://ramseyfiat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/17-spider-classico-red.jpg)
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/552c0f7fe4b04cd8bb087253/t/5651d778e4b0d031533ec6da/1448204154243/)
...over these.
(http://www.listadecarros.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Fiat-124-Spider-2017-1.jpg)
+1.
QuoteThe new Abarth 124 Spider aims at sweeping a new generation off their feet with its performance and technical DNA. It combines the authentic roadster experience packed with thrills, technology, safety and a touch of unmistakable Italian design. The car will be available in September 2016 with prices starting from € 40,000 for all Europe.
Performance DNA
The new Abarth 124 Spider combines the great sensorial experiences of excitement and driving fun that only a spider can give. Developed with input from the Abarth Racing Team, the car exemplifies at best the distinctive Abarth values: performance, craftsmanship and technical excellence. It is the car that will bring back the smile on the driver's face.
Rear-Wheel drive architecture with Mechanical Limited-Slip Differential
124 Spider is designed for thrills and performance and has all the qualities needed to satisfy even the most difficult-to-please drivers. For exceptional dynamism, the Abarth 124 Spider is equipped with a sports mechanical Limited-Slip differential as standard to secure drive and traction in the most critical situations and provide incomparable dynamic behavior.
Perfect weigh distribution and lightweight design
Abarth 124 Spider creates a new benchmark in the sporty roadster segment and this is confirmed in numbers. Much of the weight is concentrated between the axles and the engine is installed behind the front axle to guarantee agility and superior driving feel. Sophisticated mechanicals and the use of special materials have contained the weight to just 1,060 kilograms, which results in a weight-to-power ratio of 6.2 kg/HP, the best in its category, and perfect 50/50 weight distribution in running order, which translates in great agility and performance. Taking on board the lessons learned through the Abarth racing series, the weight obsession pushed Abarth to eliminate gram by gram all possible weight: For instance, an active bonnet system was developed in order to comply with the strict passenger collision standards without damaging the weight coefficient or balance of the car. By using sensors on the cross-member and two pyrotechnic loads in the engine compartment, the system recognises danger and deploys in a few milliseconds to guarantee a safety gap and attenuate the collision against the bonnet.
Supercar mechanics and suspensions scheme
The suspension of the 124 Spider has a high double-wishbone layout in front and a five-link set up in the rear, specifically tuned for greater braking and cornering stability. Steering ensures a great driving feeling with the use of a dual pinion electric power assist system.
The Abarth dynamic vehicle set-up ensures customers can get the most out of the rear-wheel drivetrain, always aiming for the true driving pleasure. Also the "Abarth by Bilstein" dampers, together with stiffened anti-roll bars, provide ultimate handling and driving comfort.
The Brembo braking system, with aluminum front callipers, guarantees very short braking distances and excellent resistance to brake fade, making the pedal always feel pleasant and safe.
Powerful engine and sporty gearboxes for an extraordinary driving experience
The Abarth 124 Spider offered in the EMEA region is equipped with a powerful, reliable four-cylinder 1.4-litre MultiAir Turbo engine. It delivers 170 HP (about 124 HP per litre) and 250 Nm of torque. It has a top speed of 230 km/h and goes from 0 to 100 km/h in 6.8-seconds. Furthermore, the sound of engine really matters in an Abarth car, so the Record Monza exhaust come equipped as standard, generating a beautiful growling sound.
The spider is available with a six-speed manual or the automatic Sequenziale Sportivo gearbox. The first is characterised by quick and accurate shifting with a short-throw, direct lever.
The Sequenziale Sportivo gearboxis the result of careful tuning to exploit all the engine torque and conveys genuine racing sensations. Using the lever orthe paddles behind the steering wheel, shifting is extremely fast and the performance of the car is boosted even further by setting "Sport" mode on the driving mode selector.
Throttle-steer driving style
The Abarth 124 Spider comes with state-of-the-art electronic devices and active safety featuresbut to ensure the Abarth provides a proper race car feeling when driving on track, the new 124 Spider lets the driver disengage the electronic controls to experience the perfect mechanical balance and linear engine response, the trademarks of a genuine rear-wheel drive sportscar.
Officine Abarth: high technology, hand-crafted care
Officine Abarth, based in Mirafiori, is where the 124 Spider emphasise the typical Italian art of driving.
The 124 receives a special treatment from Abarth technicians, who truly love cars. The Abarth people bring their values to an already great product, by fitting the Racing Anti-glare kit, a matt black treatment for bonnet and boot lid, the Racing Alcantara® Kit that contributes to elevate the overall interior quality, ensuring at the same time a proper sporting feel due to its dark finishing and grip.
The standard-fit Record Monza exhaust is also installed in Officine Abarth, to ensure outstanding engine performance and an unmistakable sound.
Each car is tested and certified by an Abarth technician who applies a metal plate showing the sequential number of each car to certify the exclusiveness of Abarth 124 Spider. A unique number for a unique client.
Design true to the Abarth DNA
The design of the Abarth 124 Spider reflects the superb mechanical layout of the car, a key element to achieve the perfect proportions for a sport car: A long bonnet to underline the importance of the engine and the powerful attitude of the car, reduced overhangs to emphasize its agile attitude, a cabin close to the rear axle to let the driver feel the road.
The passenger compartment-to-bonnet ratio is comparable to that of a racing car. A horizontal line rises from the front and stretches rearward to join with the rear line near the rear light cluster: this is an unmistakable reference to the classic 124 Spider.
The design is all about performance: both the front bumper, with its larger air intake, and the rear bumper's aerodynamic extractor were both shaped in the wind tunnel, as were the rear spoiler and wind stop which both contribute to improving air flow. The 17-inch alloy wheels, the windscreen surround and the roll bars are finished in "Forgiato Grey", a colour selected to underline the bold, technical inclination of the car.
The original headlights together with the front hexagonal grille contribute to reasserting the car's bold personality. The bonnet humps suggest the longitudinal position of the engine: this is a direct reference to the original 124 Spider. The exclusive LED headlights and rear lights add expressiveness to the car, both during the day and at night. An important detail are the rear light cluster inserts in matching body colour which form a luminous ring-shaped surface.
The rear end of Abarth 124 Spider is characterised by two elements: the swallow-tail section rear wings and the horizontal rear lights which pick up particular features of its classic predecessor. The shape of the rear bumpers with the upper surface jutting into the boot lid conveys a characteristic V-shape to the back of the car.
Five body colours are available: special solid "Turini 1975 White " and "Costa Brava 1972 Red, metallic "Isola d'Elba 1974 Blue", "Portogallo 1974 Grey" and "San Marino 1972 Black". The nomenclature is a clear tribute to its prestigious success in rallying.
Interior design
The Abarth DNA is also confirmed inside with an overall focus aimed at guaranteeing ideal ergonomics. The leather seats are supportive and very comfortable at the same time, and allow for a positive driving position as far back and as low as possible to better perceive any lateral movement of the car. Also, the controls are perfectly in tune with the car's sporty set-up: the position of the aluminium pedal board, the small-diameter steering wheel, the short gear lever and the start button on the dashboard all contribute to conveying a sporty driving experience. The instrument panel includes a large rev counter with red background arranged in central position.
Active and passive safety
The new Abarth 124 Spider is equipped with a host of state-of-the-art active and passive safety devices. In addition to the ABS, standard equipment includes the EBD, for adjusting front and rear brake force distribution so as to optimise braking distances and control in all load conditions of the car,
and ESC for increased control in all driving conditions. It is useful in critical situations, e.g. on corners and mixed surfaces in presence of snow, ice and gravel. The ESC applies selective braking and acts on the accelerator to bring the car back on line if a difference between the driver's action and trajectory is detected. The ERM is an extension of the ESC system and exploits the sensors to calculate whether the car is approaching a potentially dangerous condition at risk of rolling over. It corrects the risk by applying the brakes separately and modulating the accelerator position as needed. It can be fully disengaged for track driving to allow the driver exploit the Abarth 124 Spider's outstanding balance and dynamic abilities to the full.
The three-point seat belts employ Constant-Force Retractors (CFR) to control the degree of force applied by the belt and then gradually release it in controlled manner.
The LED adaptive headlights are available to guarantee driving pleasure even in poor visibility conditions. They can be equipped with rain sensor and dusk sensor on demand.
(http://cdn-6.motor1.com/p/static/img/mglr/600000/610000/614000/614500/614597/000.jpg)
(http://cdn-2.motor1.com/p/static/img/mglr/600000/610000/614000/614500/614593/000.jpg)
(http://cdn-1.motor1.com/p/static/img/mglr/600000/610000/614000/614500/614595/000.jpg)
(http://cdn-5.motor1.com/p/static/img/mglr/600000/610000/614000/614500/614596/000.jpg)
(http://cdn-6.motor1.com/p/static/img/mglr/600000/610000/614000/614500/614598/000.jpg)
(http://cdn-7.motor1.com/p/static/img/mglr/600000/610000/614000/614500/614594/000.jpg)
QuoteThe new Abarth 124 rally is a combination of pure technology and performance born from the experience of the Abarth Racing Team to bring back the Scorpion to the most glorious and demanding rally tracks, from the sticky sunburnt tarmac to the more slippery ice surfaces.
Forty years after its last official race, the 1976 Monte Carlo Rally, the Abarth 124 Rally is back with the same mission: to test road cars' technical solutions under extreme conditions and to guarantee all Abarth customers excellent performance and maximum reliability.
It is dedicated to all those who share the brand's sense of challenge and racing world values.
Under the bonnet, it fits the 1800 cm3 "bialbero" turbocharged direct injection engine. Thanks to the different selectable mappings, it provides power up to 300 HP at 6500 rpm and optimum torque curve, a key element to allow the driver steering and acceleration balance while oversteering. Performance is breath-taking; acceleration is scorching and marked with full, riveting sound. The project was developed to ensure reliability and performance, even in the extreme conditions typical of rallies: ice, dirt, dust, water, heat.
Even the transmission was designed to enhance performance: the engine is coupled to a quick 6-speed sequential gearbox with shift paddles and traction is assured by the mechanical limited slip differential.
Racing, for Abarth, is not only adrenaline, but also testing grounds to experiment with solutions that guarantee performance and excitement. To enhance the 124 rally's competitiveness, the Abarth Racing Team's engineers have worked with precise objectives: first of all, weight reduction and overall balance. For this reason, the engine is mounted behind the front axle; for the cockpit and the engine compartment, light, resistant materials were used, while the soft top was replaced by a fixed composite hard top. With these features, weight distribution leans slightly towards the rear axle, ensuring maximum traction even in low grip conditions. The centre of gravity was further lowered as compared to the road car to the advantage of road grip and straightforward performance.
The new Abarth 124 spider was born light and agile, and the rally edition was further refined to star in competitions. Homologation in the FIA R-GT category has required structural reinforcements to guarantee even greater stress resistance and the highest safety standards for the crew, and the body now has a safety roll cage. The whole design has been engineered for maximum efficiency and ergonomics, to ensure driver and co-driver not only superior performance, but also attention to every minute detail, such as the arrangement of interior controls and available space in the cockpit.
Rally cars undergo extreme stress; this is why the superb mechanical layout of the standard production car has been further developed: the high front-end double wishbone suspension and multi-link rear suspension have specific kinematic features with metal joints for maximum steering precision, ample control on corners, greater excursion for handling different road surfaces and adjustable dampers settings guarantee always superior grip in every situation.
In conclusion the project code, SE139, has a great deal of history that goes back directly to Karl Abarth. The SE stands for "Sports" and "Esperimental", a direct link to the Abarth values of craftsmanship and Technical Upgrade. While the 139 progressive number exemplifies that in 67 years of history, Abarth has managed to develop an average of two racing projects per year. A great accomplishment that only a few other car manufactures can be proud of.
A great team to bring back Abarth on the rally stage
Team Abarth has worked very hard to select best in class technical partners and sponsors.
Among these, Petronas Selenia that has always been at the forefront in developing technologically advanced and high performance lubricants and it has contributed in the engine development. While Adler Pelzer Group was greatly involved in making crafting composite components for the car and Michelin is the technical partner for tires development.
The Abarth 124 rally project is also a great showcase for a number of Italian companies which have been involved in racing for many years. As is the case for Sabelt, one of the most well-known brand in motorsport, which contributes with its bucket-seats, seatbelts and other safety equipment, and also for Kappa, the leading sportswear brand worn by the entire "Abarth Squadra Corse". For what concerns the mechanics of the car, LM Gianetti, a company born some 40 years ago and witnessed the development of the first Abarth 124 Rally, has closely worked with Abarth's Technical Team to reengineer completely the bodywork and the suspensions scheme. Whilst, EXT SHOX has contributed with its specific know-how in the development of 4-way adjustable dampers used for the first time in a Rally car.
BMC has supported the team in developing the air-intake system of the car, which it is crucial to allow constant and reliable engine performance. The lightweight, but at the same time robust racing wheels, have been developed and crafted by OZ, the legend in motorsport.
In conclusion, as for the road-going model, Alcantara® has completely revamped the interior of the car starting from the dashboard to the seats trimming, with 100% "Made in Italy" technology contributing to saving weight and reduce sun reflections towards the interior of the car, allowing no interferences for the driver enhancing the driver grip on the steering wheel.
The team has worked with great passion to revamp a rally icon as the Abarth 124 rally, a rear wheel drive transmission is synonym of great fun for the drivers, but also for the public. Surely, people will queue up to see pass by the new 124 Abarth rally and see it powerslide, which have become very rare today.
The new 124 rally developed with the best of technology available today, contributes to bring back sweet memories from the past of rallying in the 70's were competitions were more engaging and gathering massive crowds.
(http://cdn-1.motor1.com/p/static/img/mglr/600000/610000/614000/614500/614591/000.jpg)
(http://cdn-0.motor1.com/p/static/img/mglr/600000/610000/614000/614500/614592/000.jpg)
Sweet Jesus.
6 speed sequential w/paddle shifters? That looks like a manual in the pic (please please) and I can't see paddles behind the wheel.
300 powersliding horsepower and reduced weight ~2300 lbs. It's got to push close to $50,000, but even so holy hell I want it.
Edit: THERE'S 3 PEDALS IN THE PIC! :dance: :dance: :dance:
Quote from: Rockraven on March 01, 2016, 05:20:50 AM
Sweet Jesus.
6 speed sequential w/paddle shifters? That looks like a manual in the pic (please please) and I can't see paddles behind the wheel.
300 powersliding horsepower and reduced weight ~2300 lbs. It's got to push close to $50,000, but even so holy hell I want it.
My bad. I pasted the info for the rally car
Quote from: 68_427 on March 01, 2016, 05:22:01 AM
My bad. I pasted the info for the rally car
Ok, but is it the same engine? I'm ok if it's detuned somewhat and priced under $40k.
Quote from: Rockraven on March 01, 2016, 05:27:49 AM
Ok, but is it the same engine? I'm ok if it's detuned somewhat and priced under $40k.
The road car is 170hp
Quote from: 68_427 on March 01, 2016, 05:28:34 AM
The road car is 170hp
What? Got a link for that? The quad exhausts suggests otherwise.
Edit: found the Jalop article. Hmmm, claims 170 hp, but a 0-60 time of 6.8 seconds??? The base Miata does it in 5.9. Something's not right here.
From Car and Driver...
Going on sale this September in Europe, the Abarth 124 Spider is likely to come to the U.S. sometime later, after the Fiat-badged 124 Spider arrives. Each car will carry a serialized plaque, and just five colors will be offered: Turini 1975 White, Costa Brava 1972 Red, Isola d'Elba 1974 Blue, Portogallo 1974 Grey, and San Marino 1972 Black. For those with an eye for rally history, the paint-color names should be familiar: They're all references to European rally events. We appreciate the Abarth 124's nods to history without resorting to the kind of overt pleas of, say, a Mini Cooper or a Volkswagen Beetle. The turbocharged engine and aggressive styling contrast nicely with the Mazda MX-5 Miata's almost dainty comportment—and will bring some much-needed macho to Fiat showrooms overflowing with too-cute 500s and 500Xs, not to mention a friend for the lonely 500 Abarth and 500C Abarth hot hatchbacks.
If this is the Isola d'Elba 1974 Blue, well holy fuck. Done. I will have this car.
(http://www.lanciaflavia.it/public_old_foto/2img-1244543686.jpg)
Euro spec model is 170 hp. NA spec might be 200 hp, according to Road & Track. :vapors:
(http://roa.h-cdn.co/assets/16/09/768x426/gallery-1456843420-dsc-0454.JPG)
The red and black is fucking hot.
I just soiled myself...
https://youtu.be/MXuz4QM2QCA
Looks like the journalists are spreading misinformation. They're claiming that the Abarth has just a 10 hp power bump over the standard Spider, 170 hp vs 160 hp, and some are bitching online. In reality, that's the Euro model, which is a power bump from 138 hp in the standard Spider, to 178 hp in the Abarth (according to Top Gear). Much more significant. The NA model debuts at the NY Auto Show, and should have a comparative power bump... 160 hp to ~200 hp.
:muffin:
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Qqz4S545--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ankrvb6bwoxeswwukxff.jpg)
Quote from: Rockraven on March 01, 2016, 08:45:14 PM
I just soiled myself...
https://youtu.be/MXuz4QM2QCA
All the fiat heritage shit is corny. It's a Mazda in drag! Show me some 787b instead.
Quote from: MrH on March 02, 2016, 07:34:30 AM
All the fiat heritage shit is corny. It's a Mazda in drag! Show me some 787b instead.
And your car was a Toyota in drag :wanker:. Actually, the Toyobaru twins were pretty much a badge change. At least the Fiat is its own design and powertrain.
Quote from: Rockraven on March 01, 2016, 08:45:14 PM
I just soiled myself...
https://youtu.be/MXuz4QM2QCA
You and me both, buddy.
I haven't been as exited about a new car since the 05 Mustang debuted.
Given a fair pricing, I might pull the trigger.
Mmmmm...perfect proportions for a roadster like sports car. I really like it. Classic design never goes out of style.
Quote from: Rockraven on March 02, 2016, 07:40:33 AM
And your car was a Toyota in drag :wanker:. Actually, the Toyobaru twins were pretty much a badge change. At least the Fiat is its own design and powertrain.
Subaru actually designed the thing. But they weren't jerking off in a commercial to a time they were once relevant either :lol:
Quote from: MrH on March 02, 2016, 08:41:02 AM
Subaru actually designed the thing. But they weren't jerking off in a commercial to a time they were once relevant either :lol:
C'mon man, Abarth has a rich and charming racing history. I love the Miata, but the Abarth exudes character, not to mention it sounds like it'll rip your face off and feed it to you.
Quote from: Rockraven on March 02, 2016, 09:02:07 AM
C'mon man, Abarth has a rich and charming racing history. I love the Miata, but the Abarth exudes character, not to mention it sounds like it'll rip your face off and feed it to you.
I know, I'm just giving you a hard time. I like the car actually.
I just think the big heritage play in the commercial is pretty disingenuous.
Quote from: MrH on March 02, 2016, 09:29:02 AM
I know, I'm just giving you a hard time. I like the car actually.
I just think the big heritage play in the commercial is pretty disingenuous.
Well, not everyone is aware of who Abarth is. The racing montage tells people they have a history.
Much like Maybach, Abarth is a revived marque. The original was dissolved 35 years ago. I get trying to play the H&H card, but I also find it a little sad when a company has to look back decades to point to something positive. Like the guy who was the star high school football player 20 years ago who never did anything else with his life and spends all his time talking about his high school glory days with his co-workers at Arby's.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2016, 10:04:08 AM
Much like Maybach, Abarth is a revived marque. The original was dissolved 35 years ago. I get trying to play the H&H card, but I also find it a little sad when a company has to look back decades to point to something positive. Like the guy who was the star high school football player 20 years ago who never did anything else with his life and spends all his time talking about his high school glory days with his co-workers at Arby's.
Why wouldn't they? There's lots of value in their history and it would be crazy not to capitalize on that. Your analogy is terrible.
Quote from: Rockraven on March 02, 2016, 10:20:20 AM
Why wouldn't they? There's lots of value in their history and it would be crazy not to capitalize on that. Your analogy is terrible.
The distant past is a poor gauge of the present or future, particularly when you're talking about a broken lineage. Abarth had a lot of success 40-60 years ago. The Abarth of today has little to do with that original entity, nor can it trace it's current state back through a progressive evolution to the original Abarth. The original Abarth group was dissolved in 1981. It was revived in 2007. There's no continuity or progression to link new Abarth to the original. As far as I'm concerned, the current Abarth group's H&H only goes back 9 years.
On some levels, that ad can be summed up as "Buy our new sports car. We can't point to anything in recent memory that we'd want to brag about, but 40+ years ago, we built some good ones so this one should be good too".
Quote from: Rockraven on March 02, 2016, 07:06:02 AM
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Qqz4S545--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ankrvb6bwoxeswwukxff.jpg)
That's the colour combo I would get.
Quote from: Rockraven on March 02, 2016, 10:20:20 AM
Why wouldn't they? There's lots of value in their history and it would be crazy not to capitalize on that. Your analogy is terrible.
From a marketing standpoint, there's no reason not to. But you have to admit that it's a little silly considering most of the car wasn't even designed by the same parent company.
The way I see it, it's no worse than some Chinese company scooping up the rights to the long-defunct Borgward name or Mercedes Benz trying to revive the pre-war Maybach marque. I also don't hear anyone complaining about Elon Musk co-opting Nikolai Tesla's surname and sticking it onto cars which the man himself had nothing whatsoever to do with creating.
In fact, I once opined on this very forum not long ago that there could be a viable business case to be made in selling dormant car manufacturing marques to Chinese start-ups desperate to give their wares a veneer of History & Heritage™, no matter how contrived it may be. Then again, the Chinese already own the legendary MG name and have no clue as to what to do with it, so maybe my theory is wrong?
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2016, 10:37:08 AM
The distant past is a poor gauge of the present or future, particularly when you're talking about a broken lineage. Abarth had a lot of success 40-60 years ago. The Abarth of today has little to do with that original entity, nor can it trace it's current state back through a progressive evolution to the original Abarth. The original Abarth group was dissolved in 1981. It was revived in 2007. There's no continuity or progression to link new Abarth to the original. As far as I'm concerned, the current Abarth group's H&H only goes back 9 years.
On some levels, that ad can be summed up as "Buy our new sports car. We can't point to anything in recent memory that we'd want to brag about, but 40+ years ago, we built some good ones so this one should be good too".
Are you telling me if you purchased and revived TVR, Austin Healey, or some other defunct brand, you wouldn't capitalize on its rich history to market your new products? Your argument makes zero sense. You're dumping on Abarth for making smart business decisions that brings excitement and interest to the brand.
Quote from: Rockraven on March 02, 2016, 11:11:03 AM
Are you telling me if you purchased and revived TVR, Austin Healey, or some other defunct brand, you wouldn't capitalize on its rich history to market your new products? Your argument makes zero sense. You're dumping on Abarth for making smart business decisions that brings excitement and interest to the brand.
I didn't say it was bad marketing strategy. What I'm saying is that the knowledgeable, and a bit cynical, consumer won't necessarily view the message the same way. I'd consider a 124 Abarth, but not because Fiat's marketing group flashed a bunch of photos and film reel clips from their glory days half a century ago at me.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2016, 11:22:20 AM
I didn't say it was bad marketing strategy. What I'm saying is that the knowledgeable, and a bit cynical, consumer won't necessarily view the message the same way. I'd consider a 124 Abarth, but not because Fiat's marketing group flashed a bunch of photos and film reel clips from their glory days half a century ago at me.
But it tells the public who they are, where they've been, and what they're doing now. It's a great video introducing their new product. They also plan to go racing again with the new rally version. If the purpose was the generate excitement, I think they succeeded.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2016, 11:22:20 AM
I didn't say it was bad marketing strategy. What I'm saying is that the knowledgeable, and a bit cynical, consumer won't necessarily view the message the same way. I'd consider a 124 Abarth, but not because Fiat's marketing group flashed a bunch of photos and film reel clips from their glory days half a century ago at me.
The Camaro was defunct for 7 years. Would you feel the same way about a similar video promoting the new Z28 or SS?
Quote from: Rockraven on March 02, 2016, 11:28:57 AM
But it tells the public who they are, where they've been, and what they're Mazda is doing now.
:lol:
You guys suck. :lol:
It's like getting a date with the hottest cheerleader in school, and then your buds tell you she fucked the football team.
LOL
Quote from: Rockraven on March 02, 2016, 11:40:50 AM
You guys suck. :lol:
It's like getting a date with the hottest cheerleader in school, and then your buds tell you she fucked the football team.
Meh, as long as she's clean of STDs, :huh:
:lol:
Quote from: Rockraven on March 02, 2016, 11:30:36 AM
The Camaro was defunct for 7 years. Would you feel the same way about a similar video promoting the new Z28 or SS?
If the ad had been clips and pics of the original 124 Spider and carried the message of "Remember the 124 Spider? It's back!", you would hear no criticism from me.
Basically, the cynic in me scoffs a bit when a brand does a brand-wide "heritage" montage and everything they have to flaunt was so long ago that any car they made at that point in time now qualifies as a "classic" automobile. It would be like Cadillac in the 90s, after the garbage they produced through the 80s, putting together a "brand heritage" ad that focused entirely on their pre-WWII lineup; back when they actually made cars that rivaled Rolls Royce. Great, so you made cars 50+ years ago that were top class. What have you done lately? It reminds me of the 40-year-old "peaked in high school" guy.
You also wouldn't hear any criticism from me if the ad, flaunting motorsport prowess/involvement, could depict a long-standing progression with representation from at least every decade up through the present. That at least demonstrates a continuous lineage of motorsport success, or at least motorsport participation/dedication, for the brand. Of course, Fiat can't claim that because the brand pulled out of motorsport in the early 80s and didn't return until after the millennium. Abarth, likewise, was dissolved in the early 80s and wasn't revived as a division/brand again until 2007.
And I'll say it again, I think it's a great marketing strategy to show the old heritage and if I were in charge of marketing, you're damned right I'd be leveraging the hell out of it. But the cynic in me sees a company that has to look back 40+ years because the answer to "what have you done lately?" is "Not much".
Disclaimer: The last sentence isn't actually correct, as Fiat had several good years in the European Rally Championship within the past decade. But their ad doesn't show that.
Configurator is up!
http://www.abarthcarconfigurator.com/en_UK/124spider/ (http://www.abarthcarconfigurator.com/en_UK/124spider/)
I'd have to see a better pic of the blue, but right now I think I prefer the red/black.
I'm afraid that Fiat may have fucked up the mechanicals of the Miata. I still want one though.
Quote from: Rockraven on March 02, 2016, 06:28:07 PM
Configurator is up!
http://www.abarthcarconfigurator.com/en_UK/124spider/ (http://www.abarthcarconfigurator.com/en_UK/124spider/)
I'd have to see a better pic of the blue, but right now I think I prefer the red/black.
God damn. I love that red/black combo. I think it's stupid that the black with red insert seats aren't available with the red exterior. That would look sick.
H&H nostalgia rings hollow when there isn't continuity.
Well, sometimes there's no helping negativity.
Elbows too pointy!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!
HERITAGE TOO OLD
I bet this thing doesn't even have dry sump oiling system. Racecar my ass
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on March 02, 2016, 06:36:46 PM
I'm afraid that Fiat may have fucked up the mechanicals of the Miata. I still want one though.
I just cant come up with a reason to buy this over a Miata. It's uglier, heavier, more expensive, probably less reliable, worse resale etc. A Miata with coilovers and some bolt ons will be fast enough and run circles around this dynamically for less $$$.
Quote from: Rupert on March 02, 2016, 08:16:07 PM
H&H nostalgia rings hollow when there isn't continuity.
It's not even that. H&H rings hollow when Mazda designs the fucking car! :lol:
Some thoughts on pricing...
The Abarth Spider in the UK starts at 29,565 BP, which converts to $41,365 US. However...
The Abarth 500 starts at 19,890 BP in the UK, which converts to $27,829 US. But the actual starting price in the US is $22,495.
If we use the same relative comparison, knowing evrything is priced more expensive in the UK and it's never as simple as a direct currency conversion, the Abarth 124 Spider in the US should come in at about $35,000.
In reality though, I expect stupid dealer markups for at least the first year, probably in the order of $40-42,000. I'm scared to see what it'll cost in Canada. Probably $48-52,000.
$42K!!!! That would build a sick ND... the Miata Global Cup Car is only $53K!!!
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 03, 2016, 08:21:16 AM
$42K!!!! That would build a sick ND... the Miata Global Cup Car is only $53K!!!
Yeah, but then you're stuck with a girly squinty-faced, 76hp/litre Miata. :devil:
Quote from: Rockraven on March 03, 2016, 07:49:18 AM
Some thoughts on pricing...
The Abarth Spider in the UK starts at 29,565 BP, which converts to $41,365 US. However...
The Abarth 500 starts at 19,890 BP in the UK, which converts to $27,829 US. But the actual starting price in the US is $22,495.
If we use the same relative comparison, knowing evrything is priced more expensive in the UK and it's never as simple as a direct currency conversion, the Abarth 124 Spider in the US should come in at about $35,000.
Aren't there 2 stages of 500 Abarth in Europe? The US version is equivalent to the higher tier model.
Quote from: MX793 on March 03, 2016, 09:05:03 AM
Aren't there 2 stages of 500 Abarth in Europe? The US version is equivalent to the higher tier model.
3 if you include the Biposto. I used the middle range one for comparison, which I believe is the closest to the NA model.
Quote from: Rockraven on March 03, 2016, 08:26:54 AM
Yeah, but then you're stuck with a girly squinty-faced, 76hp/litre Miata. :devil:
This thing is like a black and gold 280ZX vs an original 240Z
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 03, 2016, 10:09:32 AM
This thing is like a black and gold 280ZX vs an original 240Z
The 280ZX was the product of the malaise era tastes in "sportscars". Firechicken Trans Ams, King Cobras, etc. The Abarth, like the new 911R you love so much, pays homage to 70's era racecars. I do agree that the white/black/red Abarth is a little gaudy, but the red/black one looks fantastic. That being said, the Abarth is available in a monochromatic paint scheme for each colour.
Quote from: Rockraven on March 03, 2016, 12:56:47 PM
The 280ZX was the product of the malaise era tastes in "sportscars". Firechicken Trans Ams, King Cobras, etc. The Abarth, like the new 911R you love so much, pays homage to 70's era racecars. I do agree that the white/black/red Abarth is a little gaudy, but the red/black one looks fantastic. That being said, the Abarth is available in a monochromatic paint scheme for each colour.
What can you do, hater's gonna hate.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/hemi666/Stop%20Hating/2012-04-13110202.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/zcNbnN5.png)
Yuck. Did they install that backwards? Also, they couldn't give the top a wipe down before displaying their new option monstrosity?
The rack is positioned like that so luggage won't slide forward into the cockpit.
The Fiat rack was designed for practicality and safety. Not max Downforce like the Lumina's.
Those wheels are... interesting. I'd like to see them side-on.
(http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2016/01/1979-Fiat-124-Spider-rear-three-quarter-in-motion.jpg)
close enough
Quote from: Rockraven on March 09, 2016, 05:17:32 AM
Yuck. Did they install that backwards? Also, they couldn't give the top a wipe down before displaying their new option monstrosity?
The top doesn't even look tight.
Quote from: SVT666 on March 09, 2016, 11:15:39 AM
The top doesn't even look tight.
Fiat build quality at its best.
Quote from: MX793 on March 09, 2016, 11:18:50 AM
Fiat build quality at its best.
Except it's built by Mazda.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 03, 2016, 07:11:42 AM
I just cant come up with a reason to buy this over a Miata. It's uglier, heavier, more expensive, probably less reliable, worse resale etc. A Miata with coilovers and some bolt ons will be fast enough and run circles around this dynamically for less $$$.
I knew there was a reason I don't come round here that much anymore.
You have to mod a car to beat a stock example? Yeah, that's a fucking good argument. Especially since you can use it against your favorite cars, too. The Miata is the ugly sister here, and it has worse dynamics, and less power.
Quote from: ChrisV on March 21, 2016, 11:13:17 AM
I knew there was a reason I don't come round here that much anymore.
You have to mod a car to beat a stock example? Yeah, that's a fucking good argument. Especially since you can use it against your favorite cars, too. The Miata is the ugly sister here, and it has worse dynamics, and less power.
That's the reason though? Becvause honestly there are much, much better reasons IMHO. :lol:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on March 21, 2016, 11:19:31 AM
That's the reason though? Becvause honestly there are much, much better reasons IMHO. :lol:
lol! Yeah, well, both Sporty and Cougs started to make the place almost unbearable to read anymore. There's better places to get car news and talk with real enthusiasts than here these days, though I still like reading about individual projects and the like.
This thread is a perfect example of people jumping on a hate bandwagon to start with, even though the car is a good enthusiast car of a type that enthusiasts wish more were made (light, agile, RWD manual trans sports cars...). A lot have come around after later information and better pictures were posted, but a few still don't get it. It doesn't have to be a favorite, but the insulting way of denegrating cars here is tiresome anymore.
Quote from: ChrisV on March 21, 2016, 11:29:32 AM
lol! Yeah, well, both Sporty and Cougs started to make the place almost unbearable to read anymore. There's better places to get car news and talk with real enthusiasts than here these days, though I still like reading about individual projects and the like.
This thread is a perfect example of people jumping on a hate bandwagon to start with, even though the car is a good enthusiast car of a type that enthusiasts wish more were made (light, agile, RWD manual trans sports cars...). A lot have come around after later information and better pictures were posted, but a few still don't get it. It doesn't have to be a favorite, but the insulting way of denegrating cars here is tiresome anymore.
First drive in my Abarth Spider will be with the top down and my finger stuck in the air. :lol:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on March 21, 2016, 11:19:31 AM
That's the reason though? Becvause honestly there are much, much better reasons IMHO. :lol:
Haha, true that
Quote from: ChrisV on March 21, 2016, 11:29:32 AM
lol! Yeah, well, both Sporty and Cougs started to make the place almost unbearable to read anymore. There's better places to get car news and talk with real enthusiasts than here these days, though I still like reading about individual projects and the like.
This thread is a perfect example of people jumping on a hate bandwagon to start with, even though the car is a good enthusiast car of a type that enthusiasts wish more were made (light, agile, RWD manual trans sports cars...). A lot have come around after later information and better pictures were posted, but a few still don't get it. It doesn't have to be a favorite, but the insulting way of denegrating cars here is tiresome anymore.
Hey, don't let the door hit you on the way out............
Take me with you....PLEASE!!!
Hey, I'd love to host some of you guys if you were able to come to a Cars & Coffee here. There are a couple near me every Saturday, (but damn, do they start early in the morning!). Talking to people about their cars is a fun way to pass a Saturday morning.
Quote from: ChrisV on March 21, 2016, 01:40:11 PM
Hey, I'd love to host some of you guys if you were able to come to a Cars & Coffee here. There are a couple near me every Saturday, (but damn, do they start early in the morning!). Talking to people about their cars is a fun way to pass a Saturday morning.
Maybe in the not too distant future we'll have a Spider Club meet.
I'm still not keen on the styling, and I wish Fiat spent more $$$ on making it more different inside from the ND.
But FCA is hurting for cash, so they probably didn't have much $$$.
The 1.4T has a lumpy power delivery - it's endearing in the 500 Abarth, but not so much in the Renegade and Dart. I wonder how it will do in this application.
Quote from: 2o6 on March 21, 2016, 02:36:40 PM
I'm still not keen on the styling, and I wish Fiat spent more $$$ on making it more different inside from the ND.
But FCA is hurting for cash, so they probably didn't have much $$$.
The 1.4T has a lumpy power delivery - it's endearing in the 500 Abarth, but not so much in the Renegade and Dart. I wonder how it will do in this application.
God, stop it with that. Nobody has an issue with the BRZ-FRS collaboration, and that was little more than a BADGE SWAP. Fiat goes all out in the partnership with its OWN DESIGN, and its OWN POWERTRAIN. The Miata interior was already fantastic, so why waste money changing it? I've even heard morons who claim "Fiat ripped off the Miata interior". WTF???
As to part 2 of your epiphany, the Renegade is a CUV and the Dart is an economy car... yes the 1.4T is a little raucous for them. However, it's a perfect little engine for a SPORTS CAR. You say yourself it's endearing in the Abarth 500, so what's the issue?
Quote from: Rockraven on March 21, 2016, 02:48:40 PM
God, stop it with that. Nobody has an issue with the BRZ-FRS collaboration, and that was little more than a BADGE SWAP. Fiat goes all out in the partnership with its OWN DESIGN, and its OWN POWERTRAIN. The Miata interior was already fantastic, so why waste money changing it? I've even heard morons who claim "Fiat ripped off the Miata interior". WTF???
As to part 2 of your epiphany, the Renegade is a CUV and the Dart is an economy car... yes the 1.4T is a little raucous for them. However, it's a perfect little engine for a SPORTS CAR. You say yourself it's endearing in the Abarth 500, so what's the issue?
Ok Chris
(And I had issue with the Toyota Twins badge swap since day one)
Quote from: 2o6 on March 21, 2016, 03:10:13 PM
Ok Chris
(And I had issue with the Toyota Twins badge swap since day one)
Lol whatucallmebich? :lol:
But why take issue with these collaborations? It gives us the sportscars we want, in different flavours, no less. It's a great trend and I have zero problem with it.
The 124/MX5 collaboration was done more correctly than the Frisbee twins. Far more flavor differentiation in the former than the latter.
Quote from: MX793 on March 21, 2016, 03:17:44 PM
The 124/MX5 collaboration was done more correctly than the Frisbee twins. Far more flavor differentiation in the former than the latter.
Hallelujah!
The FRS/BRZ was a more joint effort I thought (chassis developed by Toyota, drivetrain developed by Subaru), and each brand got its own (very similar) car.
The ND was developed solely by Mazda and Fiat is just throwing their engine and nose on it. Not that I'm complaining (although I'm complaining about the looks since I can't tell if I like it or not).
Quote from: thecarnut on March 21, 2016, 03:33:42 PM
The FRS/BRZ was a more joint effort I thought (chassis developed by Toyota, drivetrain developed by Subaru), and each brand got its own (very similar) car.
The ND was developed sololy by Mazda and Fiat is just throwing their engine and nose on it. Not that I'm complaining (although I'm complaining about the looks since I can't tell if I like it or not).
... just throwing their engine and nose on it? How can you claim it was less of a collaboration (badge swap) than the Toyobaru? The FRS/BRZ share EVERYTHING. The Fiat/Mazda share interior design, basic platform, and wheel nut pattern, that's ALL.
Is Fiat using the same lug pattern or are they fitting their own hubs so they can use some oddball pattern that only they use and no aftermarket wheel maker supports (like the 500)?
Configured my new sig. The last new car I will ever buy. :wub:
Jesus fucking christ man your sig is giant.
Quote from: thecarnut on March 21, 2016, 04:05:39 PM
Jesus fucking christ man your sig is giant.
In your face, hater.
Quote from: Rockraven on March 21, 2016, 02:48:40 PM
God, stop it with that. Nobody has an issue with the BRZ-FRS collaboration, and that was little more than a BADGE SWAP. Fiat goes all out in the partnership with its OWN DESIGN, and its OWN POWERTRAIN. The Miata interior was already fantastic, so why waste money changing it? I've even heard morons who claim "Fiat ripped off the Miata interior". WTF???
As to part 2 of your epiphany, the Renegade is a CUV and the Dart is an economy car... yes the 1.4T is a little raucous for them. However, it's a perfect little engine for a SPORTS CAR. You say yourself it's endearing in the Abarth 500, so what's the issue?
Agreed.
There's nothing wrong with the Mazda's cabin, so why fix what isn't broken? Fiat has given the car enough of its own personality to set it apart from the Miata, so this is hardly just a straight rebadge. Besides, this is an affordable, rear-wheel-drive sports car! Who can possibly complain about having more choice in this severely under-served segment of the market?
Sheesh, some people are never happy! :rage:
Quote from: MX793 on March 21, 2016, 03:57:25 PM
Is Fiat using the same lug pattern or are they fitting their own hubs so they can use some oddball pattern that only they use and no aftermarket wheel maker supports (like the 500)?
Pretty sure it's the same as the Miata. Stupid if it isn't.
Fiat 124 is great. Silly rabbits.
OMG they took an awesome sports car, and made it faster and better looking! What assholes!
Less H&H with a non-Fiat platform like this, but whatever. There is no H&H anymore.
Disappointed that the US spec Abarth isn't even as powerful as the Euro spec... 160 hp. The good news is it's going to be priced on par with the Club spec Miata, around $29,000. I wonder if Mazda had some say in this. :hmm:
http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2017-fiat-124-spider-elaborazione-abarth-drops-top-new-york/ (http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2017-fiat-124-spider-elaborazione-abarth-drops-top-new-york/)
Weird.
However, a quick tune will fix that.
Any info on the weight increase over the miata?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 22, 2016, 10:46:57 AM
Any info on the weight increase over the miata?
The Abarth supposedly weighs about the same as the Miata. We'll see.
Has any official pricing been released on the 124, Abarth or otherwise?
Quote from: MX793 on March 22, 2016, 10:54:04 AM
Has any official pricing been released on the 124, Abarth or otherwise?
Nothing official yet, but R&T says it should be priced around the same as the Miata Club, which would be awesome if true.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/new-york-auto-show/news/a28545/2017-fiat-124-spider-elaborazione-abarth-us-specs-and-info/ (http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/new-york-auto-show/news/a28545/2017-fiat-124-spider-elaborazione-abarth-us-specs-and-info/)
Seems like a lot of sources are speculating that the standard 124 will start at a little over $30k, and I find it hard to believe the Abarth will be less than the regular one.
Quote from: MX793 on March 22, 2016, 11:09:50 AM
Seems like a lot of sources are speculating that the standard 124 will start at a little over $30k, and I find it hard to believe the Abarth will be less than the regular one.
And I've seen sources that say about $1000 more (26k) than the Miata. We should know for sure tomorrow.
Quote from: ChrisV on March 21, 2016, 11:13:17 AM
I knew there was a reason I don't come round here that much anymore.
You have to mod a car to beat a stock example? Yeah, that's a fucking good argument. Especially since you can use it against your favorite cars, too. The Miata is the ugly sister here, and it has worse dynamics, and less power.
O god. No, the bone stock Miata has a better performance base than this. Same power to weight ratio and the Miata will probably weigh 200-300lb less- a lot in a 2200lb car. 5HP more is a rounding error. On top of that, this is way uglier, with more overhang and ugly details. The Miata looks more Italian than this. And the Miata costs less, which is why I brought up mods. Why spend $40K+ on this, when you can get a lighter, better looking Miata, and spend a couple grand to sort out what little downsides it has and still come out ahead?
You guys are silly.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 22, 2016, 11:30:27 AM
O god. No, the bone stock Miata has a better performance base than this. Same power to weight ratio and the Miata will probably weigh 200-300lb less- a lot in a 2200lb car. 5HP more is a rounding error. On top of that, this is way uglier, with more overhang and ugly details. The Miata looks more Italian than this. And the Miata costs less, which is why I brought up mods. Why spend $40K+ on this, when you can get a lighter, better looking Miata, and spend a couple grand to sort out what little downsides it has and still come out ahead?
Do you spend a lot of time contributing to the comments sections at car sites? It sure sounds like you do, because you've really devolved to that level. Looks are subjective, and if you like the look of the Miata over the Spider, that's fine. But everything else you just said has been proven FALSE. The Abarth has been said to weigh about the same as the Miata Club. The price is now said to be the same as the Miata Club. The standard Spider is now said to be within $1000 of the base Miata. The Spider produces 30% more torque at a much lower RPM than the Miata. The Spider is a wonderful complement to the Miata, and gives us enthusiasts another choice where the choices are very slim. I really don't understand the venom thrown at this car, both here and in the comments section at other car sites.
So they added all that overhang and an iron block turbocharged engine at no weight or cost penalty? :wtf:
I'll believe it when I see the spec sheets.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 22, 2016, 12:17:07 PM
So they added all that overhang and an iron block turbocharged engine at no weight or cost penalty? :wtf:
I'll believe it when I see the spec sheets.
*sigh* It's already old news that yes, the Spider weighs some 150 lbs more than the Miata. It's also been revealed that the Abarth has shed some 100 lbs over the standard Spider, and weighs about the same as the Miata Club. There's much to be revealed yet over the next few days, so let's wait and see the real specs and hopefully a road test soon.
I don't see how the Abarth is going to cut 100 pounds off the standard car and still come in near the price of an ND Club.
Quote from: thecarnut on March 22, 2016, 12:28:12 PM
I don't see how the Abarth is going to cut 100 pounds off the standard car and still come in near the price of an ND Club.
Apparently that's the case, but wait and see.
Sounds too good to be true, but I would totally want one if they could pull it off. The ND has always looked too squinty in the front, and the LED running lights are ghastly. Plus the ass is too fat.
My main problem with the Fiat is the supposed weight. 2500 lb is way too much. If they can keep the Abarth under 2300 I would love it.
Quote from: thecarnut on March 22, 2016, 12:47:27 PM
Sounds too good to be true, but I would totally want one if they could pull it off. The ND has always looked too squinty in the front, and the LED running lights are ghastly. Plus the ass is too fat.
My main problem with the Fiat is the supposed weight. 2500 lb is way too much. If they can keep the Abarth under 2300 I would love it.
I had a good look at an ND on display the local mall, and the ass looks great. The bodywork is pulled taught all around the car and the proportions are excellent. Can't wait to see a Spider.
Yes, ND looks fantastic.
Was over at goodwin looking around, looks like mazda left some meat on the bones of this new mill. 25HP out of a tune and 20lb ft of torque. Looks possible, with additional exhaust intake work, to have a 200HP naturally aspirated ND.
Would be a hoot.
Haven't seen an ND in person yet, but in photos, the rear fascia and tail lamps do nothing for me.
I like the 124. The proportions, by virtue of its retro design cues, are more classic roadster.
It is better looking in person, what may stand out to you now is a bit more cohesive in the flesh.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 22, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
It is better looking in person, what may stand out to you now is a bit more cohesive in the flesh.
I didn't like the rear in pics either. Then I saw this one in the flesh and took a walk around. First thing you notice... it's tiny! Same size as an NA. The tail end design came together, and really looks great in a Jaguar kind of way. There's not a wasted surface on the whole car. The thing about criticisms of the Spider... the headlights, the overhangs etc, you have to remember this car is the same size. I bet in person everything will look right. Can't wait.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 22, 2016, 02:44:56 PM
Ass can never be too fat.
Remind me to argue about this when I get home. :lol:
Quote from: Rockraven on March 22, 2016, 03:45:39 PM
I didn't like the rear in pics either. Then I saw this one in the flesh and took a walk around. First thing you notice... it's tiny! Same size as an NA. The tail end design came together, and really looks great in a Jaguar kind of way. There's not a wasted surface on the whole car. The thing about criticisms of the Spider... the headlights, the overhangs etc, you have to remember this car is the same size. I bet in person everything will look right. Can't wait.
The way the rear fenders bulge up bothers me, and I don't like how the rear lamps are inset so far with the bumper bulging out so much. The rears of previous Miatas were much smoother and more subtle.
Quote from: thecarnut on March 22, 2016, 03:55:29 PM
Remind me to argue about this when I get home. :lol:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ca8_wngWEAEMYS3.jpg)
:lol:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 22, 2016, 03:35:48 PM
Yes, ND looks fantastic.
Was over at goodwin looking around, looks like mazda left some meat on the bones of this new mill. 25HP out of a tune and 20lb ft of torque. Looks possible, with additional exhaust intake work, to have a 200HP naturally aspirated ND.
Would be a hoot.
For sure. It would not take much at all. And that is not even getting into headwork/cams. Plus I'm certain the all aluminum Skyactiv engine is significantly lighter than the iron block Multair turbo + piping, helping with balance. Only problem with the Mazda 2.0 is it sounds pretty rough, at least in stock form. Multair has it beat on stock sound.
But yea I said it before, an ND with bolt ons + a tune will have the power to weight ratio of some awesome cars.... basically like a torquey Cayman/NA1 NSX. Perfect for the street.
car looks sweet, who cares about Miata vs. Spider, when really the answer is
Miata + Spider = more car options
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 28, 2016, 01:17:35 PM
car looks sweet, who cares about Miata vs. Spider, when really the answer is
Miata + Spider = more car options
Yes X 1000. Can't wait to decide between RF and Abarth, assuming they're close in price, and that price isn't stupid.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 28, 2016, 01:17:35 PM
car looks sweet, who cares about Miata vs. Spider, when really the answer is
Miata + Spider = more car options
NO. CARS ARE DUMB.
It's cheaper than the miata... :mask:
The Abarth is going to MSRP in the $28k's. Wait until next year and Fiat will probably be paying you take these off their lots :lol: Only a tune away from 210 whp & 240 wtq or so.
Quote from: MrH on April 29, 2016, 08:35:29 AM
It's cheaper than the miata... :mask:
The Abarth is going to MSRP in the $28k's. Wait until next year and Fiat will probably be paying you take these off their lots :lol: Only a tune away from 210 whp & 240 wtq or so.
Has an official price been released yet? I haven't seen it anywhere else.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 29, 2016, 08:48:55 AM
Has an official price been released yet? I haven't seen it anywhere else.
http://jalopnik.com/the-turbocharged-fiat-124-spider-is-actually-a-little-c-1773794415 (http://jalopnik.com/the-turbocharged-fiat-124-spider-is-actually-a-little-c-1773794415)
Out the gate rebates will help too. I still think the Miata is worth more
Wow, really surprised. Rockraven must be dancing a lively jig at the moment. :lol:
Rockraven is in Canada, and they often get weird-ass pricing on certain models for no reason.
With a wad of cash in hand yelling "take my money" outside the Fiat dealership
The Abarth gets all sorts of crazy stuff too. Quad exhausts, red side mirrors and seats, super loud exhaust. That's the steal of the century. I thought it was going to be like $40k.
I am not really in a car buying mode, but damn I will have to seriously take a look at the Abarth model.
I just want the regular one with a stick. I will probably wait a year or so for the initial hoopla to wind down and they get into Fiat discount mode.
With the way things are for Fiat, I wouldn't wait.
Wow, I need a raise.
If someone wants to pay $28k for my S2000, I'd consider it :lol:
:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:
As soon as my VA payout comes in, imma ordering the Abarth configured like my sig pic. Last new car I'll ever buy.
Oooooo, blue for sure? Black & red has to be tempting
Quote from: MrH on April 29, 2016, 08:35:29 AM
It's cheaper than the miata... :mask:
The Abarth is going to MSRP in the $28k's. Wait until next year and Fiat will probably be paying you take these off their lots :lol: Only a tune away from 210 whp & 240 wtq or so.
I read the engine ecu is purposely mapped to stay in line with the Miata per development agreement, and it's a quick re-map away from 200+hp.
Quote from: MrH on April 29, 2016, 01:55:12 PM
Oooooo, blue for sure? Black & red has to be tempting
It's nice for sure, but I like the more restrained blue. I think. Can't wait to see the colours in the flesh to decide for sure.
The downside of the blue is an all-black interior. So I'm also thinking solid red (no satin black hood) with yellow Abarth fender decals.
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--jB2gVBzw--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/brka9kottvpvupbo8v6p.jpg)
Quote from: Rockraven on April 29, 2016, 01:55:32 PM
I read the engine ecu is purposely mapped to stay in line with the Miata per development agreement, and it's a quick re-map away from 200+hp.
Got a link? I'm curious
Damn, looks better and is cheaper and more powerful too?
Only problem is the weight...
Quote from: Cookie Monster on April 29, 2016, 03:02:53 PM
Damn, looks better and is cheaper and more powerful too?
Only problem is the weight...
What about the weight?
Miata Base - 2332 lbs
Miata Club - 2324 lbs
Spider Base - est 2400 lbs
Spider Abarth - 2336 lbs
The biggest variable with these cars is the size/weight of the driver.
Quote from: Rockraven on April 29, 2016, 03:26:02 PM
What about the weight?
Miata Base - 2332 lbs
Miata Club - 2324 lbs
Spider Base - est 2400 lbs
Spider Abarth - 2336 lbs
The biggest variable with these cars is the size/weight of the driver.
They have those weights published? I thought the Fiat was going to be 2500+.
Damn, so why even buy the Miata then?
Those might be EU spec weights for the Fiat. Even still, I can't picture it being more than 150lbs heavier than the Miata, which is negligible
Quote from: Cookie Monster on April 29, 2016, 03:30:34 PM
They have those weights published? I thought the Fiat was going to be 2500+.
Damn, so why even buy the Miata then?
Because the Miata is a fantastic car in its own right, many prefer its style over the Fiat, and there's something to be said for Mazda reliability. Honestly, I plan to test both back to back.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 29, 2016, 03:32:31 PM
Those might be EU spec weights for the Fiat. Even still, I can't picture it being more than 150lbs heavier than the Miata, which is negligible
150 lb is a lot for a car like this.
Is it? I don't think Rock is on a track here. 150lbs is meh, especially since the 1.4T has stronger torque
Quote from: Cookie Monster on April 29, 2016, 03:33:27 PM
150 lb is a lot for a car like this.
Off the track, not really. In any case it doesn't appear to be that much variance between the cars.
Damn, this name change must really be confusing you guys.
You do know who I am, right? :lol:
Quote from: Cookie Monster on April 29, 2016, 03:38:15 PM
Damn, this name change must really be confusing you guys.
You do know who I am, right? :lol:
Ragsmiataricemonster.
Are you implying buying a new $30,000 sport car for the sole purpose of tracking it? I totally get the purpose of what you've done to your used NC, but a new ND or Spider?
Quote from: MrH on April 29, 2016, 02:19:00 PM
Got a link? I'm curious
If I find the statement again, I'll link it. Fairly common fact from the 500 and Abarth forums.
Quote from: Rockraven on April 29, 2016, 03:46:13 PM
Ragsmiataricemonster.
Are you implying buying a new $30,000 sport car for the sole purpose of tracking it? I totally get the purpose of what you've done to your used NC, but a new ND or Spider?
It wouldn't be the sole purpose but 150lb would sway me between two otherwise almost identical vehicles. :huh:
It'd definitely see some track time.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on April 29, 2016, 03:53:49 PM
It wouldn't be the sole purpose but 150lb would sway me between two otherwise almost identical vehicles. :huh:
It'd definitely see some track time.
I'd get the Abarth solely because, IMO, it's MUCH better looking than the Miata.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on April 29, 2016, 04:06:18 PM
I'd get the Abarth sololy because, IMO, it's MUCH better looking than the Miata.
Subjective, but I like the look better too. Biggest selling point for me is the torquier 1.4T, the sound, and the Italian "romance" of it. There's something cool to saying you own an Italian sportscar in Classica or Lusso trim, never mind the cool sounding colour options. The Abarth scorpion logos and soundtrack are icing on the cake.
Miata has the advantage of being available first and better dealer network.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 29, 2016, 04:14:25 PM
Miata has the advantage of being available first and better dealer network.
The Fiat/Chrysler dealer is actually closer to me than the Mazda dealer. (8 kms vs 18 kms). :lol:
There is a Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealer right around the corner from where I work. No idea if they sell Fiats though.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 29, 2016, 04:21:52 PM
There is a Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealer right around the corner from where I work. No idea if they sell Fiats though.
Not all do.
The Fiat dealer is actually closer to my house as well, now that I think of it. But they don't exist everywhere.
Quote from: MrH on April 29, 2016, 01:55:12 PM
Oooooo, blue for sure? Black & red has to be tempting
I'll give you 3K for the S2000. 4K if you put the snow tires on for me.
You can feel 150lbs for sure. I felt ~100lbs in my ~2900lb Accord when I took my amp and subs out.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 29, 2016, 06:08:39 PM
You can feel 150lbs for sure. I felt ~100lbs in my ~2900lb Accord when I took my amp and subs out.
No doubt you'll feel 100 lbs removed from your trunk, in any car.
In any case, the difference between the Miata and Spider doesn't appear to be that much.
I'll be interested in the road tests when they come out. They should be out soon right? It's on sale later this year.
I've read on miata.net that the 124 Abarf uses a different intercooler setup than the 500 Abarf, so the powerband might feel a little different.
I wonder if C&D or MotorTrend will do a comparo of the 2, and maybe throw in something else for the hell of it.
There have been comparos of the FR-S and BR-Z, and they're even more similar than these two. So I'd definitely expect to see plenty of similar reviews this time around.
Saw a red ND today. Want.
Would love one of these too, and 150lbs??... Doesn't sound much to me but then it's like 15%. So I guess.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on May 01, 2016, 05:17:37 PM
Saw a red ND today. Want.
Would love one of these too, and 150lbs??... Doesn't sound much to me but then it's like 15%. So I guess.
150 would be 15% of 1,000 pounds.
Where'd this 150 come from? :huh:
6.25%
Yeah. The fiat version was like 100 lbs heavier or so, but I thought the abarth version was about 100 lbs lighter and brought it back to Miata weight?
Quote from: ifcar on May 01, 2016, 05:29:51 PM
150 would be 15% of 1,000 pounds.
Sigh, my maths are lacking... so it's like 6%? I can't remember even hire to do percent.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 01, 2016, 06:00:08 PM
Where'd this 150 come from? :huh:
As best I can tell, it was a random estimate that Ohio Kevin came up with.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on May 02, 2016, 10:30:13 AM
As best I can tell, it was a random estimate that Ohio Kevin came up with.
Yeah it was a guess. :huh:
Quote from: 2o6 on May 02, 2016, 10:33:44 AM
Yeah it was a guess. :huh:
Well, if the Miata is 2350 lbs, that would put the Spider at 2500. Not likely.
I posted the curb weights for each model on the last page, and they're all within 68 lbs of each other. The weights were from different sources and I can't guarantee the accuracy. If anyone finds something different please post it.
Configurator is up. :dance:
http://www.fiatusa.com/hostc/bmo/CUX201707/models.do?sessionKey=2016-05-03%2000:18:19.069 (http://www.fiatusa.com/hostc/bmo/CUX201707/models.do?sessionKey=2016-05-03%2000:18:19.069)
Couple of interesting points...
- The Classica has a body colour windshield surround, the Lusso it's silver, and the Abarth it's gunmetal grey.
- The standard headlights are the better looking ones with the smaller halos. The bigger halo ones turn with steering and are part of the tech package.
- Satin black hoods don't appear to be available on the Abarth, and sadly neither is the blue colour.
I think the answer is Classica for $25,990, and then aftermarket exhaust and wheels. Of course, in Canada I'll be looking at about $30,000. To put things in context though, my 1991 BRG Edition Miata cost $19,900 new, which is over $36,000 in today money.
(http://www.fiatusa.com/mediaserver/iris?COSY-EU-100-1713uLDEMTV1r9s%25WBXaBKFmfKSLC9gIQALMc6UhVk7GBfM9IW2VRkr72kRYd9pMjwXGXQpMTV1rUJug6OQCckPquBhkcNR2oospb9iQcOm1dn4dCeMODU7%25AFfq&&pov=fronthero&width=668&height=386&bkgrnd=&resp=jpg&cut=)
Wow. You can actually get the luxury features with an LSD and all the sport options too. The option packages are better combined than the miata too :lol:
I'd go black Abarth with the red seats.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 02, 2016, 06:29:17 PM
Configurator is up. :dance:
http://www.fiatusa.com/hostc/bmo/CUX201707/models.do?sessionKey=2016-05-03%2000:18:19.069 (http://www.fiatusa.com/hostc/bmo/CUX201707/models.do?sessionKey=2016-05-03%2000:18:19.069)
Couple of interesting points...
- The Classica has a body colour windshield surround, the Lusso it's silver, and the Abarth it's gunmetal grey.
- The standard headlights are the better looking ones with the smaller halos. The bigger halo ones turn with steering and are part of the tech package.
- Satin black hoods don't appear to be available on the Abarth, and sadly neither is the blue colour.
Not really in love with the all black lower portions of the front end. The Lusso looks nicer.
Color choices...on the Lusso, there are 2 whites, 3 grays, a black, and a red. I thought these guys were Italian. What's with all the sober colors?
That's true. I want Ecto Cooler to be a choice.
Is the lack of blue an error on the website? The color swatch is blue, but tapping it causes the car to be kind of a silver.
Quote from: Rupert on May 03, 2016, 12:19:35 AM
Is the lack of blue an error on the website? The color swatch is blue, but tapping it causes the car to be kind of a silver.
I was thinking the same thing, but at least in the configurator, it's distinctly different than any other color.
Also, no tan or brown interiors? :(
Quote from: Raza on May 02, 2016, 09:57:52 PM
Not really in love with the all black lower portions of the front end. The Lusso looks nicer.
Color choices...on the Lusso, there are 2 whites, 3 grays, a black, and a red. I thought these guys were Italian. What's with all the sober colors?
Drunk American tastes. I assume new colours will be added later to keep interest up.
200 hp is $799 away. :ohyeah:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/02/58/95/025895b78aad38ec9498985b8bf3f8df.jpg)
Quote from: Raza on May 02, 2016, 09:57:52 PM
Not really in love with the all black lower portions of the front end. The Lusso looks nicer.
Color choices...on the Lusso, there are 2 whites, 3 grays, a black, and a red. I thought these guys were Italian. What's with all the sober colors?
Same color pallette as the Miata. Not surprising.
Quote from: MX793 on May 03, 2016, 06:33:34 AM
Same color pallette as the Miata. Not surprising.
There's no blue on the Miata? When did blue become so risqué? BMW has like four blues.
Quote from: Raza on May 03, 2016, 07:26:44 AM
There's no blue on the Miata? When did blue become so risqué? BMW has like four blues.
Looks like they added a blue for 2016. Not a very vibrant blue, more of a bluish silver. Last year it was white, black, silver, gray, or red. And red cost extra.
Quote from: MX793 on May 03, 2016, 07:41:18 AM
Looks like they added a blue for 2016. Not a very vibrant blue, more of a bluish silver. Last year it was white, black, silver, gray, or red. And red cost extra.
And I think it's only available on the Touring model.
Goddammit. About $3500 more than I was hoping. Not deterred though, but why does it start $2500 more than the Miata up here when it's actually cheaper in the US??? I can only assume we get semi-loaded cars.
Fiat has announced pricing for the new 2017 Fiat 124 Spider in Canada. MSRP will start at $33,495 for the base model Classica with a 160-horsepower MultiAir 1.4-litre.
That puts the Fiat-badged car's price just above that of the 2016 Mazda MX-5 on which it's based—the Japanese roadster retails for $31,900 here.
Related: The best and worst car company collaborations
Just above the Classica is the mid-grade Lusso, which will start at $36,495 Canadian; and the premium Abarth, which costs $37,995. All trims come standard with a six-speed manual transmission, and cost about $1,500 with the optional six-speed automatic.
To commemorate the model's re-launch, the first 124 units sold will be in the exclusive Prima Edizione Lusso trim, and cost $42,190. Those cars come with the six-speed auto, a full safety suite and GPS navigation, and come with special badging and Bronzo Magnetico bronze paint.
• See the new Fiat 124 Spider in photos here
For Canada, the Fiat 124 Spider with manual transmission has been rated at 9.0 L/100 km (31 mpg) city; 6.7 L/100 km (42 mpg) highway.
In the U.S., the Fiat 124 Spider starts at just $24,995, just $80 more than the base Mazda MX-5; in fact, certain trims are actually more affordable than comparable versions of the MX-5. The two cars share the same platform and underpinnings.
The 2017 Fiat 124 Spider will hit Canadian showrooms this summer.
Fiat must be selling at a loss, but looking to make it up in volume.
That tony, he's a crafty little meat-a-ball.
Volume projections from IHS has the Fiata:Miata take rate 40:60 or so
Quote from: MrH on May 03, 2016, 07:49:57 PM
Volume projections from IHS has the Fiata:Miata take rate 40:60 or so
That would be impressive for Fiat, considering the Miata has one extra model the Fiat doesn't... the RF.
Quote from: Rockraven on May 03, 2016, 07:56:59 PM
That would be impressive for Fiat, considering the Miata has one extra model the Fiat doesn't... the RF.
There's a Rat Fink Miata? I'll take one!
Quote from: Rockraven on May 03, 2016, 07:56:59 PM
That would be impressive for Fiat, considering the Miata has one extra model the Fiat doesn't... the RF.
It's a good ;looking car. I hope it sells better than the 500, 5,266 of which have been old the first 4 months of 2016 about half of what they sold the first 4 months of 2015.
With that jackass, Sergio, at the helm, I'd be very worried about future depreciation, reliability, and parts availability from the Fiat. I don't expect them to stay in the US.
For that reason, I'd have to go for the Miata.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on May 03, 2016, 08:50:53 PM
With that jackass, Sergio, at the helm, I'd be very worried about future depreciation, reliability, and parts availability from the Fiat. I don't expect them to stay in the US.
For that reason, I'd have to go for the Miata.
He runs Ferrari now
Quote from: 68_427 on May 03, 2016, 09:51:20 PM
He runs Ferrari now
So what? He didn't give up his job running FCA.
I meant that in he now ALSO runs Ferrari. That's my fault.
Ferrari is doomed.
Good riddance?
Quote from: 68_427 on May 03, 2016, 09:51:20 PM
He runs Ferrari now
Technically, he ran Ferrari before. And he's still running it.
Quote from: CLKid on May 03, 2016, 08:47:09 PM
It's a good ;looking car. I hope it sells better than the 500, 5,266 of which have been old the first 4 months of 2016 about half of what they sold the first 4 months of 2015.
It started out fairly strong. It just hasn't gotten meaningful updates recently.
Quote from: ifcar on May 04, 2016, 06:38:27 AM
It started out fairly strong. It just hasn't gotten meaningful updates recently.
I still want one.
Quote from: ifcar on May 04, 2016, 06:38:27 AM
It started out fairly strong. It just hasn't gotten meaningful updates recently.
I think the reason is it has poor rankings in surveys like JD Powers and there is a limited lineup. Bottom line; there are better cars out there for less money.
First drive reviews are out! :dance:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive-review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive-review)
http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive/ (http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive/)
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/10/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/10/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive/)
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1104401_2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive-review (http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1104401_2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive-review)
http://driving.ca/fiat/reviews/road-test/first-drive-2017-fiat-124-spider (http://driving.ca/fiat/reviews/road-test/first-drive-2017-fiat-124-spider)
http://www.motor1.com/reviews/63698/first-drive-2017-fiat-124-spider/ (http://www.motor1.com/reviews/63698/first-drive-2017-fiat-124-spider/)
http://jalopnik.com/the-2017-fiat-124-spider-really-is-better-than-the-miat-1781392740 (http://jalopnik.com/the-2017-fiat-124-spider-really-is-better-than-the-miat-1781392740)
From the Jalop review...
Which brings us to the Abarth.
I fucking love the Abarth.
I merely drove it on an autocross course, but even still. "Not enough power," the peasants moan. But you, dear peons of society, don't know what you're talking about. Want more power? Get a Mustang. This is about having fun. With a dollop of manic, guttural insanity on top.
First off, it sounds absolutely gorgeous, all rasp and moan and wail. Just listen to it:
That quad-tip exhaust adds an extra four horsepower, which you don't notice at all. But it's in the other bits that makes it so wonderful.
The stock dampers have been switched out for Bilstein units, and the brakes have been replaced by ones built by Brembo. The anti-roll and tower bars are beefier, for sturdier cornering. It's got a mechanical limited-slip differential. The tires have a bit more stick to them.
The end result is that it's a hilarious little monster. There's less of a tendency to understeer, and when it is there, it can be cured with God's medicine—an irresponsible heavy boot on the loud pedal, inducing oversteer. Push it too far and you will end up going backwards, but you'll have plenty of warning before you get there. And even if you do end up going backwards because you're a bit of a nut, that will still mean you've got your foot buried in the loud pedal, and the loud pedal sounds good.
Will it do 0-60 in less than two seconds? Probably not, but I don't care. Will it pull 19 Gs in a corner? No, but that would rip your face off anyway, and you have a wonderful face that you should work hard to preserve.
That sort of attitude carries over to the Mopar accessories list, too. I drove one car around the autocross circuit which had a new exhaust and blowoff valve kit, which, as far as I'm aware, do absolutely nothing for the power. But they make it sound even more Abarth-y.
It's got fat scorpions on the front and back, and it's got suede-feeling seats. It's got a sport button that supposedly brings out the full potential of the 184 torques, though I couldn't really tell the difference. At the end of the day, there's only one thing that matters.
It's the sort of car that looks good, sounds good, and makes you feel good. What the hell are you complaining about?
The Verdict
You've really got the best of a bunch of different worlds here. Engineered by Italians, partially built for the American market, and assembled by the Japanese, it's hard to find something not to like.
The interior on the base model is a bit cheap, but at $24,995 before destination charges, that's not that unusual. Spring for the Lusso model at $27,495, and you get gorgeous saddle-colored leather seats and everything's all very nice. Put an automatic in it, and it won't be the end of the world, you end up with just more of a grand touring-type car.
Let's be honest. What you really want is the Abarth, at a base price of $28,195, rasp and all. As I see it, the 124 Spider is slightly better than the Miata, and the Abarth is definitely better than the Miata.
It's the little things that make something that was already pretty damn good into something that's great. It's that little extra heft in the slightly beefier wheel. It's that slightly deeper engine noise. It's that more widely available torque. It's the way it tries to flatten itself out. It's the way it's ever-so-slightly better proportioned.
In Abarth guise, this is the Miata you always wanted. It's the Miata the world always wanted. And for the weirdos out there, there's still, always, the Miata.
But give me this instead.
The Abarth :wub:
Quote from: Rockraven on June 10, 2016, 07:36:27 AM
First drive reviews are out! :dance:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive-review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive-review)
http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive/ (http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive/)
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/10/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/10/2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive/)
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1104401_2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive-review (http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1104401_2017-fiat-124-spider-first-drive-review)
http://driving.ca/fiat/reviews/road-test/first-drive-2017-fiat-124-spider (http://driving.ca/fiat/reviews/road-test/first-drive-2017-fiat-124-spider)
http://www.motor1.com/reviews/63698/first-drive-2017-fiat-124-spider/ (http://www.motor1.com/reviews/63698/first-drive-2017-fiat-124-spider/)
http://jalopnik.com/the-2017-fiat-124-spider-really-is-better-than-the-miat-1781392740 (http://jalopnik.com/the-2017-fiat-124-spider-really-is-better-than-the-miat-1781392740)
If you click on the car and driver link and then click on the picture at the top of the article you get an album of 44 pictures, many showing a 1968-69 spider for comparison. The one shown is exactly like the one I had except previous owner removed the front bumper led nerf bars, which suited the front end perfectly
SWMBO took one look at the picture of the new one and remarked, "Oh, a new Fiat Spider".
(http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2017-Fiat-124-Spider-111-876x535.jpg)
Meh, after seeing what the ND Skyactiv can do with a $2.5k header and tune, I'd rather just have one of those. 186 whp and less weight.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on June 10, 2016, 12:01:28 PM
Meh, after seeing what the ND Skyactiv can do with a $2.5k header and tune, I'd rather just have one of those. 186 whp and less weight.
Link damnit! :lol:
Abarth can make 200 whp with just a tune. Much more torque though. And quad exhausts.
Quote from: MrH on June 10, 2016, 12:04:04 PM
Link damnit! :lol:
Abarth can make 200 whp with just a tune. Much more torque though. And quad exhausts.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=610631 (http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=610631)
He's still tinkering with the tune. Last update was 186 hp and 181 lb/ft of torque. I'd trust the Skyactiv much more than the 1.4T in the Fiat, and I prefer NA over turbo anyways.
Either way, these two cars are going to be fucking ridiculous once the aftermarket has its way with them. :mask:
Quote from: Cookie Monster on June 10, 2016, 12:01:28 PM
Meh, after seeing what the ND Skyactiv can do with a $2.5k header and tune, I'd rather just have one of those. 186 whp and less weight.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/02/58/95/025895b78aad38ec9498985b8bf3f8df.jpg)
$799, 200+hp. I'd take a Classica, this chipset (Magneti Marelli is owned by Fiat and installing this keeps your warranty), and the Monza exhaust.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on June 10, 2016, 12:07:31 PM
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=610631 (http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=610631)
He's still tinkering with the tune. Last update was 186 hp and 181 lb/ft of torque. I'd trust the Skyactiv much more than the 1.4T in the Fiat, and I prefer NA over turbo anyways.
Either way, these two cars are going to be fucking ridiculous once the aftermarket has its way with them. :mask:
At sub 6 second 0-60 I wouldn't dick around with aftermarket "improvements". But, to each his own.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on June 10, 2016, 12:07:31 PM
Either way, these two cars are going to be fucking ridiculous once the aftermarket has its way with them. :mask:
:rockon:
Quote from: Rockraven on June 10, 2016, 12:10:52 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/02/58/95/025895b78aad38ec9498985b8bf3f8df.jpg)
$799, 200+hp. I'd take a Classica, this chipset (Magneti Marelli is owned by Fiat and installing this keeps your warranty), and the Monza exhaust.
Again, less weight, probably more reliability.
Plus, I'm not hating on this car. I'm just totally sold on the ND after seeing what a few bolt ons can do.
Quote from: CLKid on June 10, 2016, 12:11:18 PM
At sub 6 second 0-60 I wouldn't dick around with aftermarket "improvements". But, to each his own.
Yeah that's a lot of dicking around versus a simple plug-n-play provided by the manufacturer.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on June 10, 2016, 12:13:46 PM
Again, less weight, probably more reliability.
Plus, I'm not hating on this car. I'm just totally sold on the ND after seeing what a few bolt ons can do.
Likewise, I still love the Miata. Having this choice is great. I can't wait to test drive them both back to back.
Idk man....those "factory tunes" usually ruin something somwehere as far as longevity. People were saying similar things about the trifecta tune for the GM 1.4T in the Sonic/Cruze/Trax, and reliability goes wayyyy down when that reflash is done.
Quote from: 2o6 on June 10, 2016, 12:23:03 PM
Idk man....those "factory tunes" usually ruin something somwehere as far as longevity. People were saying similar things about the trifecta tune for the GM 1.4T in the Sonic/Cruze/Trax, and reliability goes wayyyy down when that reflash is done.
As opposed to "I know a friend of a friend who does tuning in his garage"? I'd go for a factory tune that retains your warranty any day of the week. That being said, you have to modify your maintenance routine... 1000 mile oil changes, 5000 mile plug changes, etc. You can't mod an engine and keep the factory recommended service intervals. That's asking for trouble.
Yeah reading and watching reviews of the Abarth has changed my opinion. Give me a silver/gray one with no black please.
Quote from: Rockraven on June 10, 2016, 01:32:41 PM
1000 mile oil changes,
Wut
Is that just a random number you typed, or the recommended interval according to Magneti?
Fiats have a well documented history of falling apart, and I'm not just talking about the old ones.
I'm not sure there's enough Japanese engineering in there to hold it together.
I'm glad it's good. Fiat needs a hit. I'm with Ragz though. Get the weight down some more, get some as yet unreleased cams in the head.... torque, low weight, NA response. You can't go wrong either way though and I salute Fiat and Mazda for leveraging the hell out of this platform. Makes me shake my head at what could have been with the FR-S/BRZ
Quote from: CaminoRacer on June 10, 2016, 03:58:14 PM
Wut
Is that just a random number you typed, or the recommended interval according to Magneti?
Random. I just mean you should change your oil/plugs/filters more often with a tuned engine.
Quote from: Rockraven on June 10, 2016, 05:52:54 PM
Random. I just mean you should change your oil/plugs/filters more often with a tuned engine.
I don't think so.
The metal parts are either strong enough or they aren't. Abnormally short oil change internals are unlikely to help.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on June 10, 2016, 05:59:47 PM
I don't think so.
The metal parts are either strong enough or they aren't. Abnormally short oil change internals are unlikely to help.
1000 mile intervals would be overkill, but 3-4000 is not. It's common sense to change the oil in a turbo engine more frequently than a NA one, and moreso with a chipped engine that's mapped to run richer and hotter. I guess the GM 1.4T isn't strong enough for the factory tune.
Quote from: 2o6 on June 10, 2016, 12:23:03 PM
Idk man....those "factory tunes" usually ruin something somwehere as far as longevity. People were saying similar things about the trifecta tune for the GM 1.4T in the Sonic/Cruze/Trax, and reliability goes wayyyy down when that reflash is done.
The Trifecta tune isn't a "factory tune". It comes from an independent tuning company with no association with GM. The Fiat tune was developed and is distributed by Fiat, much like the Ford Racing tune that's available for some EcoBoost motors was developed by Ford. Some of the milder factory tunes keep the factory warranty intact.
The main problem with the Trifecta tune is the turbo blowing up. The block and engine itself is generally fine, but the tiny turbo wears out super quick the higher you turn the boost up.
Well, get a bigger turbo. Problem solved!
Quote from: 2o6 on June 11, 2016, 08:47:18 AM
The main problem with the Trifecta tune is the turbo blowing up. The block and engine itself is generally fine, but the tiny turbo wears out super quick the higher you turn the boost up.
Yes, and that's the risk you run with an aftermarket tune. Factory tunes are not aftermarket. They come from the people who designed the engines and understand the limitations of the hardware and just how much they can turn things up before they compromise longevity.
There must be a trade off. Maybe it's emissions or fuel economy.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on June 11, 2016, 09:02:12 AM
There must be a trade off. Maybe it's emissions or fuel economy.
There's absolutely a trade-off. I'd expect fuel economy at the least to be negatively affected. Emissions, maybe. Overall engine longevity may also be negatively affected to some degree, but it may be the difference between the motor lasting 200,000 miles and perhaps only making it to 150,000. But I would not expect a factory tune, particularly one that keeps the warranty intact, to result in a motor blowing up after 10 or 20 thousand miles, or less.
Quote from: 2o6 on June 11, 2016, 08:47:18 AM
The main problem with the Trifecta tune is the turbo blowing up. The block and engine itself is generally fine, but the tiny turbo wears out super quick the higher you turn the boost up.
Those little turbos are on a razor's edge out of the factory. It's not just these. For example the GTI makes ~14-18 PSI stock, depending on who you ask. Back in my day that was pressure reserved for built race motors. Now they are sending out little econo hatches under that kind of pressure. Not like the DSM days when they were working with like 8 psi.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=611571&page=6 (http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=611571&page=6)
photos from the press event here
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 11, 2016, 10:22:45 AM
Those little turbos are on a razor's edge out of the factory. It's not just these. For example the GTI makes ~14-18 PSI stock, depending on who you ask. Back in my day that was pressure reserved for built race motors. Now they are sending out little econo hatches under that kind of pressure. Not like the DSM days when they were working with like 8 psi.
Yep. My Sonic spools up about 12-16PSI depending on atmopshperic conditions.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 11, 2016, 10:22:45 AM
Those little turbos are on a razor's edge out of the factory. It's not just these. For example the GTI makes ~14-18 PSI stock, depending on who you ask. Back in my day that was pressure reserved for built race motors. Now they are sending out little econo hatches under that kind of pressure. Not like the DSM days when they were working with like 8 psi.
Higher boost yes, but they aren't at the "razor's edge". Improvements in metallurgy, bearings, cooling, turbine and compressor design have allowed for higher boosts, but there's still a high redundancy factor engineered in to prevent failure.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 11, 2016, 10:22:45 AM
Those little turbos are on a razor's edge out of the factory. It's not just these. For example the GTI makes ~14-18 PSI stock, depending on who you ask. Back in my day that was pressure reserved for built race motors. Now they are sending out little econo hatches under that kind of pressure. Not like the DSM days when they were working with like 8 psi.
That's really not much. Turbo diesels run at way higher pressures and have for a long time. Pressure is also not just a function of compressor speed. IOW, an 18 psi turbo today isn't necessarily spinning way faster than a 10 psi compressor from 15-20 years ago. You can have two turbos making different boost at the same compressor RPM.
The lower pressures on petrol turbo cars of yore was not because a turbocharger couldn't handle more, but because the engine itself couldn't handle that much more before serious detonation issues would occur. Or you got a shit ton of turbo lag because a higher pressure turbo took a lot longer to spool up. Now you have better fueling systems (direct injection) which can keep the risk of detonation in check and permit much higher boost levels. More in line with diesels, which have had direct injection for decades.
Car and Driver was not a fan of the 124's acceleration or engine note, but likes the handling tweaks: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-fiat-124-spider-abarth-tested-review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-fiat-124-spider-abarth-tested-review)
Quote from: ifcar on July 02, 2016, 07:20:54 AM
Car and Driver was not a fan of the 124's acceleration or engine note, but likes the handling tweaks: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-fiat-124-spider-abarth-tested-review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-fiat-124-spider-abarth-tested-review)
I'm shocked that it's so much slower than the Miata. I get that it's a bit heavier, but I would have thought that with a fatter torque curve it would have been at worst a dead heat with the Mazda.
Quote from: ifcar on July 02, 2016, 07:20:54 AM
Car and Driver was not a fan of the 124's acceleration or engine note, but likes the handling tweaks: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-fiat-124-spider-abarth-tested-review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-fiat-124-spider-abarth-tested-review)
Is Huffman deaf? Every Youtube video I've seen the Abarth sounds fantastic. Overall disappointing review, but I'm leaning towards a base Classica anyways.
Quote from: Rockraven on July 02, 2016, 07:34:33 AM
Is Huffman deaf? Every Youtube video I've seen the Abarth sounds fantastic. Overall disappointing review, but I'm leaning towards a base Classica anyways.
"Actually, there is a nice resonant noise coming out of the four exhaust outlets. But it's still impossible to drive any car while standing behind it, so this bit of aural theater is lost on the driver."
Quote from: ifcar on July 02, 2016, 08:17:53 AM
"Actually, there is a nice resonant noise coming out of the four exhaust outlets. But it's still impossible to drive any car while standing behind it, so this bit of aural theater is lost on the driver."
Yeah I read that, but in the vids I saw, every tester commented on the awesome sound from the driver's seat. It's becoming more and more apparent that C&D has Miata bias. Still, the lacklustre 0-60 time is inexcusable, especially compared to the Miata.
Quote from: Rockraven on July 02, 2016, 08:32:02 AM
Yeah I read that, but in the vids I saw, every tester commented on the awesome sound from the driver's seat. It's becoming more and more apparent that C&D has Miata bias. Still, the lacklustre 0-60 time is inexcusable, especially compared to the Miata.
I also have a Miata bias, but I look forward to the Fiat trying to win me over. :lol:
Quote from: Rockraven on July 02, 2016, 08:32:02 AM
Yeah I read that, but in the vids I saw, every tester commented on the awesome sound from the driver's seat. It's becoming more and more apparent that C&D has Miata bias. Still, the lacklustre 0-60 time is inexcusable, especially compared to the Miata.
Could it be that the engine hadn't loosened up yet?
Quote from: MX793 on July 02, 2016, 07:30:34 AM
I'm shocked that it's so much slower than the Miata. I get that it's a bit heavier, but I would have thought that with a fatter torque curve it would have been at worst a dead heat with the Mazda.
The Miata is probably super underrated considering it makes 190 whp from a tune and header.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on July 02, 2016, 10:06:07 AM
The Miata is probably super underrated considering it makes 190 whp from a tune and header.
That or the one C&D tested was a ringer.
Quote from: MX793 on July 02, 2016, 10:11:44 AM
That or the one C&D tested was a ringer.
Yea, nobody else has been able to replicate those times.
It's also possible C&D did their test when the air was cooler + drier = denser. The difference in performance of the cars I've had between winter and summer furrows my brow.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 02, 2016, 10:37:19 AM
Yea, nobody else has been able to replicate those times.
It's also possible C&D did their test when the air was cooler + drier = denser. The difference in performance of the cars I've had between winter and summer furrows my brow.
The numbers I'm seeing are pretty similar -- Car and Driver's 0-60 was 5.9 seconds, Motor Trend 6.0, Road and Track 6.1.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 02, 2016, 10:37:19 AM
The difference in performance of the cars I've had between winter and summer furrows my brow.
That just means you need higher powered cars that will have lots of power no matter what :lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 02, 2016, 10:37:19 AM
Yea, nobody else has been able to replicate those times.
It's also possible C&D did their test when the air was cooler + drier = denser. The difference in performance of the cars I've had between winter and summer furrows my brow.
The flip side of that is that cooler temperatures mean reduced tire grip, especially with summer compound tires, which means you get a significantly worse launch.
Quote from: MX793 on July 02, 2016, 02:59:38 PM
The flip side of that is that cooler temperatures mean reduced tire grip, especially with summer compound tires, which means you get a significantly worse launch.
Depending on where they test, I'm not sure this matters much at these power levels. Though the summer compound thing is legit. The increase in power over comes that in my experience.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 02, 2016, 11:45:16 AM
That just means you need higher powered cars that will have lots of power no matter what :lol:
The bigger the horsepower the worse the heat soak.
Quote from: MX793 on July 02, 2016, 02:59:38 PM
The flip side of that is that cooler temperatures mean reduced tire grip, especially with summer compound tires, which means you get a significantly worse launch.
I see that you're back to the classic avatar. I like it.
I saw my first IRL 124 today. I didn't get a great look at it, but what I saw looked pretty good. It was in this color.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Fiat_124_Spider_-_LA_Auto_Show_2015_(23121899872)_(cropped).jpg/2176px-Fiat_124_Spider_-_LA_Auto_Show_2015_(23121899872)_(cropped).jpg)
I really want that car to be an inch and a half lower, at least from the pics.
they look really similar to the earlier version:
http://syracuse.craigslist.org/cto/5680033095.html (http://syracuse.craigslist.org/cto/5680033095.html)
Yes, remember I owned one. The original needed to be lower, too. :lol:
22 Spiders now in the local dealerships, all Lussos, all between $44 and $47,000. :facepalm:
I will not be buying this car new. Maybe in 2-3 years I'll look for a sub-$20K Classica.
noooooo
You can't order one?
Quote from: 68_427 on July 29, 2016, 05:56:42 AM
You can't order one?
I'm too annoyed that Fiat Canada priced the Spider $8000 over the US version, and then the dealers pile another $8000 on top of that. They can go fuck their hats.
I need a new sig picture. :lockedup:
If consumer perceptions of quality and value are anything like they are for the Fiat 500 buyers had better strike quickly because I wouldn't expect the brand to be available in the US too much longer.
Just finished the Road and track first drive of the spider. Bottom line: It's a nice car, worthy of praise until you compare it to the Miata. Then it becomes an exercise in how to turn a great car into a good car. Car and Driver was equally lukewarm in it's praise. R&T also said it looks better in pictures than in the flesh.
The 124 was in the latest episode of Ignition, as was the Miata. Summary was that in a normal commute the Miata is a more fun car, but on curvy roads the suspension tuning of the 124 is better and more confidence inspiring. They said the perfect car would be the engine from the NC, looks of the ND, and suspension tuning of the 124.
...:confused: what?
The NC engine wasn't great by any means. I think I like the ND more than the Fiata. Naturally aspirated and not a Fiat is more enticing :lol:
My hope and expectations were too high for the Spider. There's no justification for the Abarth to be almost an entire second slower 0-60 than the Club Sport. That being said, I still want a 2 yr old Classica with an MM chipset.
For long term ownership, I'd much rather have something naturally aspirated. I still need to test drive one of these. Maybe this weekend.
Fiata has like a 1500 RPM powerband. No thanks. I think the right bolt ons will make the Miata a 13 second car at sea level... can't beat that
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 09, 2016, 08:07:12 AM
Fiata has like a 1500 RPM powerband. No thanks. I think the right bolt ons will make the Miata a 13 second car at sea level... can't beat that
ECU flash can likely fix the turbo's power band.
Quote from: MX793 on August 09, 2016, 08:58:34 AM
ECU flash can likely fix the turbo's power band.
The MM chipset probably does that.
Quote from: MrH on August 09, 2016, 06:53:12 AM
...:confused: what?
The NC engine wasn't great by any means. I think I like the ND more than the Fiata. Naturally aspirated and not a Fiat is more enticing :lol:
The NC2 had updated valve train and other internal improvements and a header I think. It made better sounds and a more engaging powerband. Plus more power. I know the new one is quicker but the added power might be more noticeable on the highway.
Read/watched all that in some review of the ND
Quote from: MX793 on August 09, 2016, 08:58:34 AM
ECU flash can likely fix the turbo's power band.
I don't think so. Turbo doesn't spool until 3K RPM, and the cams begin to sign off at 5K:
(http://eurocompulsion.net/Intakedynos.jpg)
It would take a turbo upgrade and/or a cam upgrade to move that needle. These things need ~18PSI to make stock power... a tune would only add more boost and make the powerband that much more peaky. Remember we are only working with 1.4L here... these things are tapped
Cams don't sign off on boosted motors like NA. The power falls off because the controller is either cutting boost (opening bypass valve) or the compressor has maxed out. I would guess the former.
At 18 psi stock boost, I would guess the latter. A tiny cheapo journal bearing turbo boosting to 18 psi is not gonna be able to maintain that kind of pressure ratio across the rev range, even with this thing's intake VVL
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 09, 2016, 11:07:01 AM
At 18 psi stock boost, I would guess the latter. A tiny cheapo journal bearing turbo boosting to 18 psi is not gonna be able to maintain that kind of pressure ratio across the rev range, even with this thing's intake VVL
A tiny turbo would be spooled before 3000 rpm (see Ford Ecoboost engines).
18 psi is a peak value, that's not constant (nor is it bleeding edge for a production engine, Ford's turbo 4s run at 20+ peak). It makes 18 psi at one point (I suspect near peak torque). After that, the boost pressure is dropping as the engine RPMs climb. Program the bypass valve to bleed less air at higher RPMs so the boost pressure stays closer to peak at higher RPM and you'll fatten the band. I'm not talking about increasing peak boost.
Y'all mean "cam". It's SOHC with port injection. In head to head they said they got 10mpg worse real world than the Miata.
The latest C&D has a comparison between Miata and Fiata. Miata wins easily. Only thing going for the Fiata is looks (subjective). In exchange for those looks you get a noticeably heavier and slower car with poor throttle response and a higher price. Also most likely less reliable.
10 mpg worse in the real world, slower, and less reliable. Wow.
I actually like the looks of the miata better too.
Quote from: 68_427 on August 09, 2016, 11:41:37 AM
Y'all mean "cam". It's SOHC with port injection. In head to head they said they got 10mpg worse real world than the Miata.
Damn, that's a bad look for turbocharging :lol:
To be fair though, it would have to have all the Miata's engine tech (dual VVT and direct injection) to really be apples to apples. But it will be a cold day in hell before FCAb invests in its small car engines again :lol:
Quote from: MrH on August 09, 2016, 06:53:12 AM
...:confused: what?
The NC engine wasn't great by any means. I think I like the ND more than the Fiata. Naturally aspirated and not a Fiat is more enticing :lol:
NC engine is pretty damn stout if you get the NC2 with the forged stuff.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 09, 2016, 12:07:46 PM
NC engine is pretty damn stout if you get the NC2 with the forged stuff.
Yeah, I guess so.
Just seems weird to say "Damn! If only this car had the engine from an NC2!" :lol: Odd thing to lust for, and not that big of a difference from the sky active engine in the ND.
Except it redlines like 1000rpm later.
Quote from: MrH on August 09, 2016, 12:23:46 PM
Yeah, I guess so.
Just seems weird to say "Damn! If only this car had the engine from an NC2!" :lol: Odd thing to lust for, and not that big of a difference from the sky active engine in the ND.
The older MZR actually had a bit more low end grunt than the newer SkyActiv motor. At least in the previous generation Mazda3.
Quote from: MrH on August 09, 2016, 12:23:46 PM
Yeah, I guess so.
Just seems weird to say "Damn! If only this car had the engine from an NC2!" :lol: Odd thing to lust for, and not that big of a difference from the sky active engine in the ND.
Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have the ND SkyActiv since it makes 190 whp from simple bolt ons and a tune, but I just take exception to the fact that you say the MZR wasn't great by any means. :lol:
I think I'll go test drive one this weekend for the hell of it. The dealership 2 miles from my house has like 10 manual transmission club models sitting on the lot. They can't sell them to save their life.
Quote from: 68_427 on August 09, 2016, 11:41:37 AM
Y'all mean "cam". It's SOHC with port injection. In head to head they said they got 10mpg worse real world than the Miata.
HOLY SHIT
Quote from: MrH on August 09, 2016, 12:57:48 PM
I think I'll go test drive one this weekend for the hell of it. The dealership 2 miles from my house has like 10 manual transmission club models sitting on the lot. They can't sell them to save their life.
Good for making a deal, but sad overall for the segment.
What do you guys think has prompted the death of sports/sporty cars? It can't be money, with all the luxury cars and crossovers people are buying. Is it just people not having enough time? Was driving more fun and conducive to sporty cars before we hit this population saturation and ensuing traffic?
With the house, ironically, I have a commute that would make something like a sports car pretty fun. Side bar, my commute when we were in the apartment was awful- a big part of why I sold the Z. But yea, if I had a shitty commute, or lived up in frost heave craterville, I would definitely not do a sports car. I remember realizing how stiffly sprung the Z was when I was clunk clunking over all the craters and expansion joints when I took it up to NYC. Is that what it is? What exactly has changed?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 09, 2016, 02:33:01 PM
What do you guys think has prompted the death of sports/sporty cars? It can't be money, with all the luxury cars and crossovers people are buying. Is it just people not having enough time? Was driving more fun and conducive to sporty cars before we hit this population saturation and ensuing traffic?
With the house, ironically, I have a commute that would make something like a sports car pretty fun. Side bar, my commute when we were in the apartment was awful- a big part of why I sold the Z. But yea, if I had a shitty commute, or lived up in frost heave craterville, I would definitely not do a sports car. I remember realizing how stiffly sprung the Z was when I was clunk clunking over all the craters and expansion joints when I took it up to NYC. Is that what it is? What exactly has changed?
I think sports car I think LBCs and other two seaters, and high end exotics. Say sporty and I think of something like a Mustang.
Sports cars have always been a niche market. The exotic end is doing just fine, it's always been about low numbers. For the rest, today there are far more choices than there were from the 50s to the 70's. You can get very good performance without having to go two to the restrictions imposed by a two seater. Add to that the average 18-30 year old doesn't seem to be as interested in cars as anything but a mobility device with nice features and connectivity.
Sporty cars are doing just fine IMO. Back in the day no self respecting gear head would be caught dead in anything but a convertible or a two door hardtop (no B pillar). Four doors were for mom and pop. Today there are any number of exciting to drive 4 doors available. If you classify them as sporty cars that segment may larger than ever today.
I think it's just hard to justify spending $30-35k on a two seat sports car when you can get cars like the STI and Focus RS for not a whole lot more that deliver most of the performance and driving experience while being a whole lot more practical.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 09, 2016, 04:42:43 PM
I think it's just hard to justify spending $30-35k on a two seat sports car when you can get cars like the STI and Focus RS for not a whole lot more that deliver most of the performance and driving experience while being a whole lot more practical.
Or even a lower trim car that'll give you better performance than old sports cars while costing much less.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 09, 2016, 04:42:43 PM
I think it's just hard to justify spending $30-35k on a two seat sports car when you can get cars like the STI and Focus RS for not a whole lot more that deliver most of the performance and driving experience while being a whole lot more practical.
It's not most of the driving experience. You can get the spec sheet performance and a lot more practicality, but it's not close to the experience of a real sports car.
Quote from: Raza on August 09, 2016, 05:32:24 PM
It's not most of the driving experience. You can get the spec sheet performance and a lot more practicality, but it's not close to the experience of a real sports car.
You're still getting most of the driving experience, especially on the streets, while getting a huge boost in practicality. Sure, you can't go top down but other than that, for the way most people drive, a performance based hatch isn't giving up that much to a sports car.
Apparently NDs are having issues with the transmission grenading? Based on what I'm seeing on the Miata forums (which are just terrible, mind you) anywhere from 6-50 people have had their transmission explode :lol:
Always 2nd or 3rd hear, not even beating on it necessarily. No one knows what's going on, as Mazda hasn't rolled out a tsb or anything yet. Everyone is shaking in their boots though
Any details other than "explode"? It's not like they're complicated transmissions, must be a faulty batch of bearings or whatever.
Quote from: MrH on August 09, 2016, 08:51:37 PM
Apparently NDs are having issues with the transmission grenading? Based on what I'm seeing on the Miata forums (which are just terrible, mind you) anywhere from 6-50 people have had their transmission explode :lol:
Always 2nd or 3rd hear, not even beating on it necessarily. No one knows what's going on, as Mazda hasn't rolled out a tsb or anything yet. Everyone is shaking in their boots though
The Fiata uses the NC Gearbox which I've heard is more robust.
(http://i.imgur.com/bo0wHok.jpg)
The RF and Fiata both weigh 2400lbs, but the RF is 50.8/49.2 F/R and the Fiata is 54/46.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 09, 2016, 08:32:26 PM
You're still getting most of the driving experience, especially on the streets, while getting a huge boost in practicality. Sure, you can't go top down but other than that, for the way most people drive, a performance based hatch isn't giving up that much to a sports car.
Driving experience and performance capabilities are not the same thing. Things like exhaust note, cabin ambiance, and seating position play into the experience as much as the numbers.
I'm surprised that Cookie Monster posted that :lol: I think riding motorcycles has recalibrated his vehicular engagement scale. I know it has for me. On a scale of 1-10 of engagement.... I'd put a hot hatch at a ~3, a working man's convertible like the S2000 or Miata in the strong ~4 range, a Ferrari or something like that in the 5s and riding a motorcycle in anger probably up in the 8-9 range. If I'm gonna get a second vehicle for fun I'm going balls deep.... sacrificing damn near everything practical to get the most back in engagement + performance per dollar. Sports cars just occupy an uncomfortable middle ground where the value isn't quite there, at least to me.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 10, 2016, 06:27:33 AM
I'm surprised that Cookie Monster posted that :lol: I think riding motorcycles has recalibrated his vehicular engagement scale. I know it has for me. On a scale of 1-10 of engagement.... I'd put a hot hatch at a ~3, a working man's convertible like the S2000 or Miata in the strong ~4 range, a Ferrari or something like that in the 5s and riding a motorcycle in anger probably up in the 8-9 range. If I'm gonna get a second vehicle for fun I'm going balls deep.... sacrificing damn near everything practical to get the most back in engagement + performance per dollar. Sports cars just occupy an uncomfortable middle ground where the value isn't quite there, at least to me.
One would expect that something that has about 30 times the chance of getting you killed would be more exciting.
And I am not making up the 30X factor, I researched it when I was looking to get a bike.
Yeah, motorcycles are totally off limits for me. Just not worth it. Something like an Exocet I would do, but it has to have 4 wheels.
Something with a big V8, loud exhaust, good suspension, and sticky tires is just as fun as a motorcycle. Honestly, maybe even more fun since you can push the limits without risking your life as much.
Something like a Shelby Cobra 427, pro touring Camaros, V8 Miata, etc. Strip the car down, make it raw, make it perform.
Edit: after reading his post again, that may have been Sporty's point.
I'm disappointed in you guys.
No, it's not just as fun. It's totally different. People talk about the danger... you don't think about the danger when you ride. You can't, beyond just not making overly stupid decisions. There's too much going on- way more than driving a car fast.
Plus bikes are more fun at street speeds than super high horsepower cars like a Cobra 427 or w/e. Hell my Z didn't feel like it was stretching its legs out until like 90-100. Bike makes me giggle at half that speed. Only kind of car I could ditch motorcycles for would be something like an Atom or Exocet. Everything else is :zzz: And while something like an Exocet won't spit you off/out you'd probably be just as fucked in a crash with another vehicle.
It is what it is.... everything in life worth doing.... making money, having sex, bringing more life into this awful world, approaching any kind of physical limit, be it your own body or in some kind of vehicle.... comes with risk and a commensurate reward. For me there's nothing like bombing through sweepers on the bike.
In summary... see sig :praise:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 09, 2016, 08:55:13 PM
Any details other than "explode"? It's not like they're complicated transmissions, must be a faulty batch of bearings or whatever.
I've only seen pictures of one, but it looks like the teeth on 2nd gear just shredded off. I don't know how close the design limits are with the standard output, and whether full exhaust + tune is putting it over the top or what. They're trying to track build date of the vehicles with exploding transmissions on the miata forum, but they're doing a poor job at it. Seems earlier build dates have the issue, and it's happening really randomly (not always a hard shift on a track that's causing it or anything like that). Leads me to believe it was a batch issue from the gear supplier.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 10, 2016, 07:24:26 AM
Something with a big V8, loud exhaust, good suspension, and sticky tires is just as fun as a motorcycle. Honestly, maybe even more fun since you can push the limits without risking your life as much.
Something like a Shelby Cobra 427, pro touring Camaros, V8 Miata, etc. Strip the car down, make it raw, make it perform.
Edit: after reading his post again, that may have been Sporty's point.
A car will never be as engaging as a motorcycle. Driver and machine operate more as one unit on a bike. They move together on a way you just don't get with a car. It's not about pushing limits. Even operating at 3/10s, a bike is more involving and engaging.
You guys must drive shitty cars :huh:
Any decent autox monster will be incredibly engaging, communicative, and fun to drive. My El Camino, my dad's Camaro, and all of the cars we race against are just as fun to autox as a bike is to ride through the twisties. If you disagree, you are wrong.
Notice: majority of the cars I've mentioned are not new cars with lots of sound deadening, electronics, or luxuries. Those aren't nearly as fun or engaging.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on August 10, 2016, 06:40:06 AM
One would expect that something that has about 30 times the chance of getting you killed would be more exciting terrifying.
I fixed that for you.
Quote from: MrH on August 10, 2016, 07:12:09 AM
Yeah, motorcycles are totally off limits for me. Just not worth it.
I'd still like to restore a 60's Honda 90. Just because.
You guys rant and rave about motorcycles on here, and then sporty crashes on a bi-annual basis and Rags just destroyed his ankle and hand. :lol: I'll take my slightly less exciting car and functioning body.
Quote from: MrH on August 10, 2016, 09:18:59 AM
You guys rant and rave about motorcycles on here, and then sporty crashes on a bi-annual basis and Rags just destroyed his ankle and hand. :lol: I'll take my slightly less exciting car and functioning body.
We used to have a saying in the dispensary. "Get your son a motorcycle for his last birthday."
I lost 2 friends in gruesome crashes last summer. Fuck motorcycles.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 10, 2016, 09:15:15 AM
You guys must drive shitty cars :huh:
Any decent autox monster will be incredibly engaging, communicative, and fun to drive. My El Camino, my dad's Camaro, and all of the cars we race against are just as fun to autox as a bike is to ride through the twisties. If you disagree, you are wrong.
I'm not saying that a car can't be engaging. I've driven auto-x prepped Miata's (you don't get much more engaging in a street car). I've never driven a car that provided the same connected experience that a bike does. A bike literally moves with you, and the controls require inputs that are so much more subtle. Turns, even sharp ones, are executed by mere pressure applied to the bars, not significant arm movements like a car. Gear changes are small flicks of fingers and feet. How you position yourself on the machine can significantly alter weight balance and how it behaves. You can literally throw a bike around with your body weight versus being strapped in place by belts/harnesses in a car. And none of this requires pushing a bike to super-legal speeds or to the limits of grip to experience. You can experience this engagement just tooling along a winding road like the BRP at 35 or 45 mph. A pro touring auto-x monster puttering along at those speeds will not be nearly as engaging.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 10, 2016, 07:39:46 AM
I'm disappointed in you guys.
No, it's not just as fun. It's totally different. People talk about the danger... you don't think about the danger when you ride. You can't, beyond just not making overly stupid decisions. There's too much going on- way more than driving a car fast.
Plus bikes are more fun at street speeds than super high horsepower cars like a Cobra 427 or w/e. Hell my Z didn't feel like it was stretching its legs out until like 90-100. Bike makes me giggle at half that speed. Only kind of car I could ditch motorcycles for would be something like an Atom or Exocet. Everything else is :zzz: And while something like an Exocet won't spit you off/out you'd probably be just as fucked in a crash with another vehicle.
It is what it is.... everything in life worth doing.... making money, having sex, bringing more life into this awful world, approaching any kind of physical limit, be it your own body or in some kind of vehicle.... comes with risk and a commensurate reward. For me there's nothing like bombing through sweepers on the bike.
In summary... see sig :praise:
As long as you're clear on the pleasure of riding being worth the 30X risk factor more power to you. I didn't find that equation working for me.
Autox is usually around 45 mph :huh:
I had fun blasting through a yellow turn arrow today. Second gear, full throttle and a little bit of rear end rotation.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 10, 2016, 09:51:39 AM
Autox is usually around 45 mph :huh:
I had fun blasting through a yellow turn arrow today. Second gear, full throttle and a little bit of rear end rotation.
45 on a course that is much tighter than any public roadway. 35-45 on the Blue Ridge doesn't generate .9g+ in cornering that an auto-x course does.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 10, 2016, 07:39:46 AM
I'm disappointed in you guys.
No, it's not just as fun. It's totally different. People talk about the danger... you don't think about the danger when you ride. You can't, beyond just not making overly stupid decisions. There's too much going on- way more than driving a car fast.
Look, everything's dangerous. You know how I like to drive; I like to push it. I'm well aware that one of these days it may not break my way.
But how many riders here on CarSPIN haven't been in an accident? How many drivers? You've been hurt, Rags, Gixxer. Might be more than that, but I can't remember. As a percentage, it's a lot more than the drivers who have been in accidents. I'm not taking down bikes or anything like that, but there's no way to spin it that it's not much more dangerous, and not just what's in your own hands; Rags was hit by a driver who just didn't see him. Whether it's worth it to you is a personal decision, and whether it's not, that's a personal decision too. It doesn't make anyone less or more by choosing one or the other.
As for the 350Z not being exciting, well, I warned you about that. You chose the wrong car; the 350Z is an indictment of spec-sheet shopping, not an indictment of four wheeled transportation in general. My car is a hundred times more exciting to drive than a 350Z, at any and every speed. I feel connected, I feel engaged, I feel happy, and I love the way a car feels. There's nothing out there that feel like a good shift, feeling that clutch under your sole, moving the gearstick quickly, but delicately and deftly, timing your right foot back on the throttle perfectly, pulling your foot off the clutch, and moving the steering wheel where it needs to go. It's all four limbs with every shift; a poem of kinetics, a body in motion and in perfect harmony. That's enough for me.
Quote from: Raza on August 10, 2016, 10:20:07 AM
Look, everything's dangerous. You know how I like to drive; I like to push it. I'm well aware that one of these days it may not break my way.
But how many riders here on CarSPIN haven't been in an accident? How many drivers? You've been hurt, Rags, Gixxer. Might be more than that, but I can't remember. As a percentage, it's a lot more than the drivers who have been in accidents. I'm not taking down bikes or anything like that, but there's no way to spin it that it's not much more dangerous, and not just what's in your own hands; Rags was hit by a driver who just didn't see him. Whether it's worth it to you is a personal decision, and whether it's not, that's a personal decision too. It doesn't make anyone less or more by choosing one or the other.
As for the 350Z not being exciting, well, I warned you about that. You chose the wrong car; the 350Z is an indictment of spec-sheet shopping, not an indictment of four wheeled transportation in general. My car is a hundred times more exciting to drive than a 350Z, at any and every speed. I feel connected, I feel engaged, I feel happy, and I love the way a car feels. There's nothing out there that feel like a good shift, feeling that clutch under your sole, moving the gearstick quickly, but delicately and deftly, timing your right foot back on the throttle perfectly, pulling your foot off the clutch, and moving the steering wheel where it needs to go. It's all four limbs with every shift; a poem of kinetics, a body in motion and in perfect harmony. That's enough for me.
+1
The 350Z was the wrong car if you're looking for engagement and driving excitement.
Quote from: Raza on August 10, 2016, 10:20:07 AM
Look, everything's dangerous. You know how I like to drive; I like to push it. I'm well aware that one of these days it may not break my way.
But how many riders here on CarSPIN haven't been in an accident? How many drivers? You've been hurt, Rags, Gixxer. Might be more than that, but I can't remember. As a percentage, it's a lot more than the drivers who have been in accidents. I'm not taking down bikes or anything like that, but there's no way to spin it that it's not much more dangerous, and not just what's in your own hands; Rags was hit by a driver who just didn't see him. Whether it's worth it to you is a personal decision, and whether it's not, that's a personal decision too. It doesn't make anyone less or more by choosing one or the other.
As for the 350Z not being exciting, well, I warned you about that. You chose the wrong car; the 350Z is an indictment of spec-sheet shopping, not an indictment of four wheeled transportation in general. My car is a hundred times more exciting to drive than a 350Z, at any and every speed. I feel connected, I feel engaged, I feel happy, and I love the way a car feels. There's nothing out there that feel like a good shift, feeling that clutch under your sole, moving the gearstick quickly, but delicately and deftly, timing your right foot back on the throttle perfectly, pulling your foot off the clutch, and moving the steering wheel where it needs to go. It's all four limbs with every shift; a poem of kinetics, a body in motion and in perfect harmony. That's enough for me.
+2.
Quote from: Raza on August 10, 2016, 10:20:07 AM
Look, everything's dangerous. You know how I like to drive; I like to push it. I'm well aware that one of these days it may not break my way.
But how many riders here on CarSPIN haven't been in an accident? How many drivers? You've been hurt, Rags, Gixxer. Might be more than that, but I can't remember. As a percentage, it's a lot more than the drivers who have been in accidents. I'm not taking down bikes or anything like that, but there's no way to spin it that it's not much more dangerous, and not just what's in your own hands; Rags was hit by a driver who just didn't see him. Whether it's worth it to you is a personal decision, and whether it's not, that's a personal decision too. It doesn't make anyone less or more by choosing one or the other.
As for the 350Z not being exciting, well, I warned you about that. You chose the wrong car; the 350Z is an indictment of spec-sheet shopping, not an indictment of four wheeled transportation in general. My car is a hundred times more exciting to drive than a 350Z, at any and every speed. I feel connected, I feel engaged, I feel happy, and I love the way a car feels. There's nothing out there that feel like a good shift, feeling that clutch under your sole, moving the gearstick quickly, but delicately and deftly, timing your right foot back on the throttle perfectly, pulling your foot off the clutch, and moving the steering wheel where it needs to go. It's all four limbs with every shift; a poem of kinetics, a body in motion and in perfect harmony. That's enough for me.
+3
My Miata, old and stock, was just a blast to drive. And no helmet, plus you can put some groceries in and take a date out. And air conditioning. And rain shield.
Quote from: MX793 on August 10, 2016, 05:48:54 AM
Driving experience and performance capabilities are not the same thing. Things like exhaust note, cabin ambiance, and seating position play into the experience as much as the numbers.
Again, on a day to day basis for most people. I would argue I have one of the mos extreme cars here (almost completely stripped out, racing seat, harness, R-comps, etc) and even I found driving my friend's mildy modified WRX to be a ton of fun on the streets. No, it doesn't touch my completely riced out car in terms of fun, but on the streets you can't touch those limits anyways without going to jail or worse. The WRX only had lowering springs and a cat-back exhaust. I can only imagine what a nicely set up STI or RS would feel like.
Point is, you get a high level of street-usable engagement and enjoyment, while having infinitely more practicality and space. The Miata has always been a 2nd or 3rd car, but at $35k it's getting to be a pretty expensive toy, especially when it's easy to just combine attributes of a practical and a fun car into one (see SJ_GTI's thread on why he won't get 2 cars).
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 10, 2016, 06:27:33 AM
I'm surprised that Cookie Monster posted that :lol: I think riding motorcycles has recalibrated his vehicular engagement scale. I know it has for me. On a scale of 1-10 of engagement.... I'd put a hot hatch at a ~3, a working man's convertible like the S2000 or Miata in the strong ~4 range, a Ferrari or something like that in the 5s and riding a motorcycle in anger probably up in the 8-9 range. If I'm gonna get a second vehicle for fun I'm going balls deep.... sacrificing damn near everything practical to get the most back in engagement + performance per dollar. Sports cars just occupy an uncomfortable middle ground where the value isn't quite there, at least to me.
Nah, if a motorcycle is 8-9 (which I agree with), I'd put my car at a solid 6. There's certain things I'm willing to do in a car that I won't do on a bike, like explore the limits of traction, get the car sliding, etc. Plus, certain things are more enjoyable/satisfying in a car, to me, like the perfect heel-toe shift. They're completely different experiences, and while I agree a motorcycle is more engaging, I think a properly built car isn't as far off as you say it is, at least IMO.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 10, 2016, 09:15:15 AM
You guys must drive shitty cars :huh:
Any decent autox monster will be incredibly engaging, communicative, and fun to drive. My El Camino, my dad's Camaro, and all of the cars we race against are just as fun to autox as a bike is to ride through the twisties. If you disagree, you are wrong.
Notice: majority of the cars I've mentioned are not new cars with lots of sound deadening, electronics, or luxuries. Those aren't nearly as fun or engaging.
LOL. "If you disagree you are wrong." :wtf:
You have access to nice cars but ride a shitty bike. You don't really have a good comparison. Go get on something with some decent HP, modern suspension and ergos, and drag knee on it around a track and tell me that it isn't more fun than your car on an autox (or even track) course.
I love tracking my car, but ultimately it doesn't compare to the experience of dragging knee on a bike around a track. I find both to be extremely enjoyable and rewarding, but the experience in a car does not compare in any way to a bike. There simply isn't the same amount of involvement as MX said.
Quote from: MrH on August 10, 2016, 09:18:59 AM
You guys rant and rave about motorcycles on here, and then sporty crashes on a bi-annual basis and Rags just destroyed his ankle and hand. :lol: I'll take my slightly less exciting car and functioning body.
Quote from: Raza on August 10, 2016, 10:20:07 AM
Look, everything's dangerous. You know how I like to drive; I like to push it. I'm well aware that one of these days it may not break my way.
But how many riders here on CarSPIN haven't been in an accident? How many drivers? You've been hurt, Rags, Gixxer. Might be more than that, but I can't remember. As a percentage, it's a lot more than the drivers who have been in accidents. I'm not taking down bikes or anything like that, but there's no way to spin it that it's not much more dangerous, and not just what's in your own hands; Rags was hit by a driver who just didn't see him. Whether it's worth it to you is a personal decision, and whether it's not, that's a personal decision too. It doesn't make anyone less or more by choosing one or the other.
As for the 350Z not being exciting, well, I warned you about that. You chose the wrong car; the 350Z is an indictment of spec-sheet shopping, not an indictment of four wheeled transportation in general. My car is a hundred times more exciting to drive than a 350Z, at any and every speed. I feel connected, I feel engaged, I feel happy, and I love the way a car feels. There's nothing out there that feel like a good shift, feeling that clutch under your sole, moving the gearstick quickly, but delicately and deftly, timing your right foot back on the throttle perfectly, pulling your foot off the clutch, and moving the steering wheel where it needs to go. It's all four limbs with every shift; a poem of kinetics, a body in motion and in perfect harmony. That's enough for me.
I completely respect your guys' opinion on not wanting to ride. I would never, ever push someone into getting a motorcycle. It's all about risk vs reward IMO and for me, the risk is worth the reward of the feeling I get while I ride. Even though I've had two accidents in the span of a month, it's still worth it for me and I'm counting down the days till I can ride again. Logically, I wish I could give up riding, just because being taken out for three months sucks and detracts from my other hobbies, but in my heart I know I can't.
Plus, my last crash was 100% my fault, so I wouldn't let that sway you against a bike if you were on the fence. I got pretty lucky in the grand scheme of things and it was a good reminder that bikes have a much smaller margin for error. I know what I need to do next time to improve as a rider, which is why it hasn't swayed my desire to go ride again.
Well, you seem to be fully aware of the risks (:lol:) and still choose to do it. I can respect that. There's just a lot of people that wouldn't take that risk regardless of how awesome it is.
That's one reason why I don't even want to try it. If I got a bike, I'd immediately want a faster and faster bike until I inevitably rammed it into a wall going 180 mph.
I worked with a bunch of motorcycle guys at Bilstein. They'd always ride each other's bikes to test them out. I watched a friend ride a CBR1000RR that was highly modified just to lunch with us. We were behind in a car. Someone pulled out in front of him and cut across three lanes, blocking him entirely. He had to cut over the double yellow to avoid and almost got in a huge wreck. That scared the shit out of me.
Yeah, there's only so much you can do to be safe. I just wear all my gear and try to be careful around cars. I got unlucky with the asshole who turned in front of me but I escaped that with no injury thankfully.
It's when there's no cars around that I end up riding like an idiot, and that's what did me in. The way I was riding, I was bound to crash at some point and I got lucky that the injuries were relatively minor.
I want my next bike to be a 27 hp supermoto so I'm not worried about going too fast. :lol:
I've ridden other bikes, not just mine. Although mine might be slightly more fun than some of the faster bikes, since I can listen to it scream in almost every gear without speeding too badly.
As for safety, you gotta develop a sixth sense for how drivers do stupid things. Usually you can predict it or at least avoid the lane positioning that would put you in the way of it. I do the same in my car (which has zero collision insurance) so I haven't had much trouble on bike. Of course I also try to avoid traffic in the first place, since my bike is a fun toy and traffic isn't a very fun place :lol:
I don't think any of us bikers have downplayed the dangers of riding. It is what it is.
But the significantly higher level of engagement is undeniable. The question is what you are willing to risk to feel it.
Quote from: MrH on August 10, 2016, 01:24:49 PM
If I got a bike, I'd immediately want a faster and faster bike until I inevitably rammed it into a wall going 180 mph.
By this logic you would have been in a Hellcat or 911 Turbo or something of the sort by now. And this comes back to a great thing about bikes. Like my bike.... it's slow for a motorcycle, but I really love its balance. I tried bigger more powerful bikes and I hated how heavy they felt and how they made me tip toe around their power. Given your car trajectory I don't think you would end up on a liter bike or something crazy like that.... you'd probably end up on something like Ragz' track bike with all Ohlins bits.
Re: Me and the Z... it fit the bill for what I wanted at the time I got it:
QuoteI am working from home for now but I still need a car for rainy days, interviews, the winter, going to the gym etc. I don't think this thing will see more than ~500 miles a month and I have the bike. So a lot of shit doesn't matter. Maintenance costs don't matter though I would like the thing to run. Gas mileage doesn't matter though I don't want the worst of both worlds (weak performance + shitty mileage). Practicality kind of doesn't matter either, it can be a 2 seater. Only real limitation is price and possibly insurance.
My heart is set on a 2.8-3.0L E36 but there are some interesting alternatives. Main things I want are RWD, ~mid 14 sec or less quarter mile, <3200lbs, <$10K price, and some level of long distance comfort
Z fit the bill to a tee, and until I started commuting it fit pretty much perfectly. What did it in for me was mainly going from driving it at my leisure for ~500 miles a month to commuting in it ~500 miles a week, often in bumper to bumper traffic. That is where its syrupy, heavy ass controls, out of control road noise and lack of practicality began to wear thin. There was nothing in my original parameters about engagement, largely because I had (and still have) the bike for that :huh:
Situations change and we all make mistakes or have changes in what we want. Look at Mr. H's car resume :lol: Abysmal gas mileage aside I'm pretty happy with my setup now... covers the whole spread of my needs. Ironically I think the only car that would have better fit my current needs would have been something like an E90 sedan, though my gas costs would be much worse. Maybe next time :)
But yea, the only question about bikes is the risk. The reward in regards to fun and engagement is higher, no question. I will say this though- some places are definitely more bike friendly than others. Knock on formica down here a lot of people ride so a lot of people have bikes in their consciousness. It's not super crowded either so people aren't all road ragey and crazy. If I lived somewhere like D.C. I would probably get a comfy ass CUV, a track bike + annual track day membership and a sick racing sim rig as there is zero fun to be had on any vehicle on those roads. But down here when the weather cooperates I can enjoy my bike as much as I want.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 10, 2016, 01:53:26 PM
I've ridden other bikes, not just mine. Although mine might be slightly more fun than some of the faster bikes, since I can listen to it scream in almost every gear without speeding too badly.
As for safety, you gotta develop a sixth sense for how drivers do stupid things. Usually you can predict it or at least avoid the lane positioning that would put you in the way of it. I do the same in my car (which has zero collision insurance) so I haven't had much trouble on bike. Of course I also try to avoid traffic in the first place, since my bike is a fun toy and traffic isn't a very fun place :lol:
Yea between learning to drive in NYC, commuting by bicycle in Manhattan and riding a motorcycle I gotta say very little surprises me on the road. If you are the kind of driver who is often surprised by what other drivers do I would not recommend a motorcycle.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 10, 2016, 02:01:55 PM
There was nothing in my original parameters about engagement, largely because I had (and still have) the bike for that :huh:
Then don't use it as an example in a discussion regarding driving engagement. :huh:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 10, 2016, 01:53:26 PM
I've ridden other bikes, not just mine. Although mine might be slightly more fun than some of the faster bikes, since I can listen to it scream in almost every gear without speeding too badly.
As for safety, you gotta develop a sixth sense for how drivers do stupid things. Usually you can predict it or at least avoid the lane positioning that would put you in the way of it. I do the same in my car (which has zero collision insurance) so I haven't had much trouble on bike. Of course I also try to avoid traffic in the first place, since my bike is a fun toy and traffic isn't a very fun place :lol:
I generally don't have many close calls because I can usually predict when people are going to do something. However, turning left across 4 lanes of traffic from the second to right lane on a 5 lane road without any warning was not something I was expecting, and given that this was in San Francisco during rush hour, you can't factor in every single "what-if" situation.
My lane positioning in that incident had me closer to the car that hit me, because I was in the right part of the lane to avoid a stopped line of cars to my left. I was expecting a car to pull out from the stopped line on my left, hence why I was towards the right part of my lane, but that ultimately made it harder for me to avoid the one guy who I wasn't expecting to pull a dumbass move and turn across so many lanes of traffic.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 10, 2016, 02:25:22 PM
I generally don't have many close calls because I can usually predict when people are going to do something. However, turning left across 4 lanes of traffic from the second to right lane on a 5 lane road without any warning was not something I was expecting, and given that this was in San Francisco during rush hour, you can't factor in every single "what-if" situation.
My lane positioning in that incident had me closer to the car that hit me, because I was in the right part of the lane to avoid a stopped line of cars to my left. I was expecting a car to pull out from the stopped line on my left, hence why I was towards the right part of my lane, but that ultimately made it harder for me to avoid the one guy who I wasn't expecting to pull a dumbass move and turn across so many lanes of traffic.
I get why you do it in SF traffic, but this is exactly why I wouldn't ride in a major city like that. There's no telling what kind of shenanigans someone will pull.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on August 10, 2016, 02:26:52 PM
I get why you do it in SF traffic, but this is exactly why I wouldn't ride in a major city like that. There's no telling what kind of shenanigans someone will pull.
I wasn't lane splitting or anything. It would've happened in a car, too (though not to the same extent).
Your mistake was not commuting in a giant yellow Hummer that day.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 10, 2016, 01:29:38 PM
Yeah, there's only so much you can do to be safe. I just wear all my gear and try to be careful around cars. I got unlucky with the asshole who turned in front of me but I escaped that with no injury thankfully.
It's when there's no cars around that I end up riding like an idiot, and that's what did me in. The way I was riding, I was bound to crash at some point and I got lucky that the injuries were relatively minor.
I want my next bike to be a 27 hp supermoto so I'm not worried about going too fast. :lol:
You crashed a second time? When was this and where posted?
Quote from: MX793 on August 10, 2016, 02:55:43 PM
You crashed a second time? When was this and where posted?
I didn't really post about it. It was in the beginning of July.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 10, 2016, 02:45:41 PM
I wasn't lane splitting or anything. It would've happened in a car, too (though not to the same extent).
Exactly. Cars protect you better, plus (without being there or knowing all the details) it's more likely that the person who hit you would've seen you in a car and not pulled out in the first place.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on August 10, 2016, 03:17:25 PM
Exactly. Cars protect you better, plus (without being there or knowing all the details) it's more likely that the person who hit you would've seen you in a car and not pulled out in the first place.
As if that person was in any way competent. :lol:
Quote from: BimmerM3 on August 10, 2016, 03:17:25 PM
Exactly. Cars protect you better, plus (without being there or knowing all the details) it's more likely that the person who hit you would've seen you in a car and not pulled out in the first place.
I doubt it. Dude was a fucking moron.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 10, 2016, 03:24:36 PM
As if that person was in any way competent. :lol:
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 10, 2016, 03:28:01 PM
I doubt it. Dude was a fucking moron.
Still though, people in general are more likely to see a car than a bike, and in general, cars will protect the driver better than a bike will.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on August 10, 2016, 03:43:27 PM
Still though, people in general are more likely to see a car than a bike, and in general, cars will protect the driver better than a bike will.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but in this particular instance, I don't think the guy would have seen anything. He was probably lost and turned in at the last second without looking at anything.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 09, 2016, 04:42:43 PM
I think it's just hard to justify spending $30-35k on a two seat sports car when you can get cars like the STI and Focus RS for not a whole lot more that deliver most of the performance and driving experience while being a whole lot more practical.
I can't imagine the STI and Focus RS delivering nearly as much driving enjoyment as a Miata in ordinary conditions. The beauty of the Miata has always been that it's so small and light that everything about it is joyful. An STI is about high performance limits that you rarely get opportunities to aproach.
Quote from: ifcar on August 10, 2016, 04:05:35 PM
I can't imagine the STI and Focus RS delivering nearly as much driving enjoyment as a Miata in ordinary conditions. The beauty of the Miata has always been that it's so small and light that everything about it is joyful. An STI is about high performance limits that you rarely get opportunities to aproach.
Some people would get more enjoyment out of an SUV or pickup than they would a Miata. Doesn't mean they are wrong, just means they have different expectations.
I enjoyed our Miata and enjoy the CLK that replaced it just as much. Each car does different things better and I appreciate the differences. Same goes for the E-type.
In fact, I still love driving my 07 Mazda6I sport. I've got cars that are faster, that corner better that do individual things better, but as a package I think that 6 strikes a great balance of economy, driving dynamics, cost to operate, comfort and utility.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 10, 2016, 01:00:48 PM
Again, on a day to day basis for most people. I would argue I have one of the mos extreme cars here (almost completely stripped out, racing seat, harness, R-comps, etc) and even I found driving my friend's mildy modified WRX to be a ton of fun on the streets. No, it doesn't touch my completely riced out car in terms of fun, but on the streets you can't touch those limits anyways without going to jail or worse. The WRX only had lowering springs and a cat-back exhaust. I can only imagine what a nicely set up STI or RS would feel like.
Before buying my last Mustang, I drove a range of different cars. Hot hatches, rally rockets, pony cars, and GT cars. The WRX I drove was the singularly most underwhelming and disappointing "performance" vehicle I've ever driven. Perhaps I was just expecting too much based on the reviews (and the fact that I'd wanted one since they came to the US in '02). When puttering along in traffic, it felt completely mundane. Like a regular Impreza. Nothing about the experience in "normal" (nowhere near the limit) felt special or engaging. Standard Impreza economy car interior, flacid "sport" seats, characterless exhaust note, tall "dining room chair" seating position. It was only when you were burying your foot into it that you had the least inkling that you weren't just driving a small, mainstream sedan. Meanwhile, the RX-8 I drove was loaded with character. Low, sporty seating position. Brapbraap engine sounds. Even tooling along at 25 mph through a school zone, it felt special. Even the V6 Mustang that I eventually settled on, with its floaty suspension and numb steering (not that the WRX's was anything to write home about) offered a better sensory experience. You felt like you were in a performance car. The WRX was likely faster than either car, but the experience when driving it slowly was uninspiring.
Quote from: ifcar on August 10, 2016, 04:05:35 PM
I can't imagine the STI and Focus RS delivering nearly as much driving enjoyment as a Miata in ordinary conditions. The beauty of the Miata has always been that it's so small and light that everything about it is joyful. An STI is about high performance limits that you rarely get opportunities to aproach.
An ordinary, stock Miata is not that fun to drive, between the nearly silent exhaust and rolly polly suspension. Yes, they're small and light, which is great, but stock I don't think the experience is anything to write home about. (This doesn't include the ND since I've never driven one).
Other than being able to drop the roof I don't think they're that amazing to drive stock. Or maybe I've been ruined by my ultra ricemobile. :huh:
Quote from: MX793 on August 10, 2016, 07:20:54 PM
Before buying my last Mustang, I drove a range of different cars. Hot hatches, rally rockets, pony cars, and GT cars. The WRX I drove was the singularly most underwhelming and disappointing "performance" vehicle I've ever driven. Perhaps I was just expecting too much based on the reviews (and the fact that I'd wanted one since they came to the US in '02). When puttering along in traffic, it felt completely mundane. Like a regular Impreza. Nothing about the experience in "normal" (nowhere near the limit) felt special or engaging. Standard Impreza economy car interior, flacid "sport" seats, characterless exhaust note, tall "dining room chair" seating position. It was only when you were burying your foot into it that you had the least inkling that you weren't just driving a small, mainstream sedan. Meanwhile, the RX-8 I drove was loaded with character. Low, sporty seating position. Brapbraap engine sounds. Even tooling along at 25 mph through a school zone, it felt special. Even the V6 Mustang that I eventually settled on, with its floaty suspension and numb steering (not that the WRX's was anything to write home about) offered a better sensory experience. You felt like you were in a performance car. The WRX was likely faster than either car, but the experience when driving it slowly was uninspiring.
I haven't driven a stock WRX but I thought my friend's WRX was a great DD/only car solution. Lots of practicality, decent steering/suspension (maybe it was the stiffer springs or wider tires), nice exhaust (again, modified), and the turbo was a ton of fun to play with. You didn't have to be going stupid fast to enjoy the turbo rush either.
After having a lot of modified cars a lot of stock cars do feel like trash. Only car I had that I was like "OK this is a pretty good OEM package" was the Z. I could def see how a stock WRX could feel like doo doo, but a mildly modded one could feel fun. It's very hard to get a cheap car just right.
Alot of the complaints here about the WRX are fixed with the STi. The old EJ has a more exciting character, way better exhaust sound, the STi has better steering, brakes, and even though it's limits and performance are higher, it makes you work harder for them. People complain about the higher boost threshold in the STi saying they wish it had the meatier power curve of the FA until they drive one and realize it's more fun to wring the thing out. It's a car that eggs you on, and actually feels special unlike the standard WRX nowadays.
Quote from: MX793 on August 10, 2016, 07:20:54 PM
Before buying my last Mustang, I drove a range of different cars. Hot hatches, rally rockets, pony cars, and GT cars. The WRX I drove was the singularly most underwhelming and disappointing "performance" vehicle I've ever driven. Perhaps I was just expecting too much based on the reviews (and the fact that I'd wanted one since they came to the US in '02). When puttering along in traffic, it felt completely mundane. Like a regular Impreza. Nothing about the experience in "normal" (nowhere near the limit) felt special or engaging. Standard Impreza economy car interior, flacid "sport" seats, characterless exhaust note, tall "dining room chair" seating position. It was only when you were burying your foot into it that you had the least inkling that you weren't just driving a small, mainstream sedan. Meanwhile, the RX-8 I drove was loaded with character. Low, sporty seating position. Brapbraap engine sounds. Even tooling along at 25 mph through a school zone, it felt special. Even the V6 Mustang that I eventually settled on, with its floaty suspension and numb steering (not that the WRX's was anything to write home about) offered a better sensory experience. You felt like you were in a performance car. The WRX was likely faster than either car, but the experience when driving it slowly was uninspiring.
WRXs and STIs haven't been exciting below the limit since the Hawkeye style. That age WRX was good, but the STI was blown out of the water by the Evo, which did feel very alive at low speeds.
Quote from: 68_427 on August 10, 2016, 09:35:11 PM
Alot of the complaints here about the WRX are fixed with the STi. The old EJ has a more exciting character, way better exhaust sound, the STi has better steering, brakes, and even though it's limits and performance are higher, it makes you work harder for them. People complain about the higher boost threshold in the STi saying they wish it had the meatier power curve of the FA until they drive one and realize it's more fun to wring the thing out. It's a car that eggs you on, and actually feels special unlike the standard WRX nowadays.
Even a kid I know who wasn't much into cars said he didn't really like the last gen WRX. He ended up with the MkVI GLI 6MT, and he said it was so much more fun just driving around.
Quote from: Raza on August 11, 2016, 04:51:06 AM
Even a kid I know who wasn't much into cars said he didn't really like the last gen WRX. He ended up with the MkVI GLI 6MT, and he said it was so much more fun just driving around.
He probably liked the Fender sound system
Quote from: Raza on August 11, 2016, 04:51:06 AM
Even a kid I know who wasn't much into cars said he didn't really like the last gen WRX. He ended up with the MkVI GLI 6MT, and he said it was so much more fun just driving around.
Yeah, I was talking previous generation car (still had the EJ).
If we're talking previous gen even the STi was definitely eh. Subaru tried making them a bit grown up but did it the wrong way by numbing them up and not making any improvements where they really needed it.
"Begs to be wound out" = shitty when you can't.
IDK. WRX/STI seem to be the result of making the most of a shitty situation. Base Impreza is not great so it's no surprise that hi po versions of it aren't the best driver's cars either. It is what it is. I would rock a WRX if I lived up north I think.
I see a bazillion WRX and STI here in upstate NY. But there are 3 bazillion Subarus, too.
The AWD is definitely a consideration for snow country. And young Soldiers looking to get "cool" and not just "normal" will probably throw the extra dough for the turbo.
Honestly I've always wanted a turbo Subie but after seeing a non-car guy get one just because it was the cool thing to do, and seeing the gas penalty just for some added speed in an economy car base, I've chilled on it.
Still looking for a Miata though.........! CHEAP reliable fun.
My friend has a 91 from Florida with nitrous
Paint is bad, buy has vinyl wrapped hood and trunk and engine was rebuilt less than 5k ago. Interior could use love too
Quote from: 68_427 on August 11, 2016, 06:45:11 AM
My friend has a 91 from Florida with nitrous
Paint is bad, buy has vinyl wrapped hood and trunk and engine was rebuilt less than 5k ago. Interior could use love too
Miata? Trying to sell?
I mostly shop for stock cars, not looking for a project but a dependable car; wife says she'll steal it from me from time to time so it needs to be respectable....
But it has a 70 shot
Quote from: 68_427 on August 11, 2016, 12:43:07 PM
But it has a 70 shot
Wife would get her license suspended in a very short time. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Trying to wrap my head around why somebody would put nitrous on an NA Miata.
Quote from: MX793 on August 11, 2016, 01:38:14 PM
Trying to wrap my head around why somebody would put nitrous on an NA Miata.
Why not?
Quote from: MX793 on August 11, 2016, 01:38:14 PM
Trying to wrap my head around why somebody would put nitrous on an NA Miata.
If anyone would, they would be 68_427's homie :lol:
Quote from: MX793 on August 11, 2016, 01:38:14 PM
Trying to wrap my head around why somebody would put nitrous on an NA Miata.
He got the entire NOS brand kit for $200. A 60% power gain from $200 is pretty dope.
Quote from: 68_427 on August 11, 2016, 09:44:07 PM
He got the entire NOS brand kit for $200. A 60% power gain from $200 is pretty dope.
60% power gain for like 2 seconds. Unless you're drag racing, NOs is pretty useless, and a Miata is a poor choice of vehicle if drag racing is your thing.
I'm sorry I don't see how it's useless. You can literally choose when you want an extra 70hp. Want to pass on a two lane or a highway? Have a stock NA Miata? Sorry better luck next time. Have NOS? No problem.
Just DON'T ASSPLODE MIATA
:lol:
(So seriously, is he looking to sell? how much? :mask: )
Quote from: 68_427 on August 12, 2016, 04:51:32 AM
I'm sorry I don't see how it's useless. You can literally choose when you want an extra 70hp. Want to pass on a two lane or a highway? Have a stock NA Miata? Sorry better luck next time. Have NOS? No problem.
After the 6th time replenishing the tank, you'll realize it's uselessness.
Y'all put gas in your cars. Beside it's not a big deal for a second or even third car. ITT people who would rather not have the option for extra on demand power? Suit yourselves :lol:
I would rather go turbo or engine swap to be honest. To do it right (stronger internals, tune) you are gonna go through about the same hassle and not spend much less money. Mite as well go balls deep widdit
The engine was already rebuilt with forged internals anyways. Nos is cheap and fun to use while the turbo parts get collected
Quote from: 68_427 on August 12, 2016, 02:23:09 PM
Y'all put gas in your cars. Beside it's not a big deal for a second or even third car. ITT people who would rather not have the option for extra on demand power? Suit yourselves :lol:
I have that option. I step on the accelerator pedal and I instantly have more power at my command. It's also 100% legal for street use in all 50 states, unlike NOS. FYI, simply having a NOS bottle hooked up in your car is grounds for a citation for engaging in racing or a contest of speed in NY.
Well that's cuz NY sucks :lol:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 12, 2016, 05:36:42 PM
Well that's cuz NY sucks :lol:
Having a bottle hooked up (let alone using it) on the streets is illegal in a lot of states.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 12, 2016, 02:32:07 PM
I would rather go turbo or engine swap to be honest. To do it right (stronger internals, tune) you are gonna go through about the same hassle and not spend much less money. Mite as well go balls deep widdit
Yeah, you're getting that turbo setup for $200 too, right? And no, you don't need stronger internals and a full tune until you start getting a bit nuts.
Nitrous is what it is, but it's not as bad as a lot of people seem to think.
Quote from: MX793 on August 12, 2016, 06:04:31 PM
Having a bottle hooked up (let alone using it) on the streets is illegal in a lot of states.
So is speeding.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 13, 2016, 01:30:08 AM
Yeah, you're getting that turbo setup for $200 too, right? And no, you don't need stronger internals and a full tune until you start getting a bit nuts.
Nitrous is what it is, but it's not as bad as a lot of people seem to think.
Show me a full nitrous setup that's $200
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 12, 2016, 05:36:42 PM
Well that's cuz NY sucks :lol:
They can't search a locked trunk so it's no big deal at all.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 13, 2016, 06:36:10 AM
Show me a full nitrous setup that's $200
I posted the only reason he bought it was because it was on sale from NOS for $200.
Unthusiast spin
Quote from: 68_427 on August 13, 2016, 07:12:34 AM
They can't search a locked trunk so it's no big deal at all.
If they pull you over and see/recognize NOS controls, they absolutely can search the trunk.
This isn't F&F with big red buttons
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/xhghjtvbfdtkf2n3oqfv.jpg)
Quote from: MX793 on August 13, 2016, 07:14:54 AM
If they pull you over and see/recognize NOS controls, they absolutely can search the trunk.
You'd have to be pretty dumb to have buttons that noticeable to a cop.
Quote from: MX793 on August 13, 2016, 07:14:54 AM
If they pull you over and see/recognize NOS controls, they absolutely can search the trunk.
I doubt it, but again it's a bit of a pointless conversation. Almost everything involving modifying cars comes afoul of the law in one way or another eventually.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 13, 2016, 06:36:10 AM
Show me a full nitrous setup that's $200
That's what the man said it cost, and on sale, or used it's completely possible. Should I be required to show receipts?
What would your beefed up internals, recammed tuner motor cost?
Anyone watch the motor trend comparison video? The Miata has a better power train by quite a bit. I didn't realize that turd in the Fiata is a single overhead cam and needs 21 PSI to make 5 more hp than the Miata.
Jason from Motor Trend had issues with the miata's suspension tuning, but he was driving the grand touring. He also commented about a lack of LSD, so I'm interested to see what he would think of the club version.
I watched it. I really like the rear of the 124, but the front ruins it. The Miata is the better, more cohesive body design.
Just about the only angle I prefer the 124:
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2667140.1465485171!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/2017-fiat-124-spider-lusso-silver-rear-quarter-right.jpg)
Quote from: MrH on September 14, 2016, 12:25:32 PM
Anyone watch the motor trend comparison video? The Miata has a better power train by quite a bit. I didn't realize that turd in the Fiata is a single overhead cam and needs 21 PSI to make 5 more hp than the Miata.
Jason from Motor Trend had issues with the miata's suspension tuning, but he was driving the grand touring. He also commented about a lack of LSD, so I'm interested to see what he would think of the club version.
I'm not sure if it was MT's or some other video that I saw, but yeah, it seems like the Miata's engine is way better from what I've seen/read. Too bad - I significantly prefer the looks of the 124.
Not that it really matters. As long as I have the S2000, it's pretty irrelevant to me.
Yeah, the Fiata crush is officially over for me. It doesn't look nearly as good as I had hoped and it's got a complete turd of an engine.
I still love the look, and may one day get a used Classica. But the Abarth is a major disappoint and no way will I buy any 124 new.
Long live the Miata! :wub:
Shocking news!!!! Mazda makes a better miata than fiat, never saw it coming.
I wonder if they'll let me order a Fiat with the Mazda 2.0 engine? :hmm:
NO
I would say you could swap it yourself, but at that point you can swap in a much better engine than the 2.0
Just get the better car, get the miata. It's got more heritage behind it and is a better car mechanically and visually.
The reviews I read indicated that the Miata gets a huge jump off the line but that the Fiat pulls on it at speed provided you do your gear work correctly. They also reported that the Mazda 2.0 was just all around more responsive and the better sounding of the two. I dunno I wouldn't mind wringing the piss out of a little faux-Italian sports car.
The 124 looks really really good in a TV commercial, sitting next to the other Fiats for sale.
Quote from: Tave on November 06, 2016, 07:38:57 AM
The reviews I read indicated that the Miata gets a huge jump off the line but that the Fiat pulls on it at speed provided you do your gear work correctly. They also reported that the Mazda 2.0 was just all around more responsive and the better sounding of the two. I dunno I wouldn't mind wringing the piss out of a little faux-Italian sports car.
But it's ugly. The Miata looks better and will be more reliable in the long run.