https://www.motortrend.com/news/genesis-g70-2019-car-of-the-year/
Dang! Looks great! Especially in that red. Undercuts competition in price by thousands. People want SUVs now though and its hard for a new player to break the German stronghold in this market. But still. Long Hyundai warranty. And it offers a manual on the 4 cylinder and the 6 cylinder is wicked fast. This is awesome.
I like the G70, a lot, but I'm still skeptical. The new 3 series and C-class are right around the corner, as is a new Lexus IS and Infiniti Q50 (presumably). The base engine looks to be a bit of dog like I feared, which sucks. Reading between all the lines, seems to be this car is 3.3T or bust.
Incandescent blinkers = :facepalm:. Sure they can be jury-rigged for LEDs but such a thing portends of cheapness elsewhere, likely not easily detectable.
I find it odd they continually use the germans to compare it against when an Italian was already declared much better than them.
Quote from: r0tor on December 03, 2018, 11:29:14 AM
I find it odd they continually use the germans to compare it against when an Italian was already declared much better than them.
I can't figure out if they are trolling or what. This quote made me look at them sideways:
QuoteIt's more evolved and more luxurious than the original Infiniti G35 was, has an edge to it that a Mercedes-Benz C-Class lacks, and feels more alert than an Audi A4."
I mean they could have added that its more agile than a Ford F150, has more storage space than a Miata, and has better fuel economy than an Escalade.
I mean...its more evolved than a 15 year old car, has more of an edge than the smoothest of the luxury cars in the class, and feels more alert than the one car in the class that isn't RWD (and is known for completely numb steering). Oh golly, it must be great!
This is the same publication that has previously handed out CotY awards to the likes of the Chrysler Cirrus, PT Cruiser, 2002 ThunderTurd, and early 2000s Malibu, right? I rest my case.
Quote from: MX793 on December 03, 2018, 11:39:33 AM
This is the same publication that has previously handed out CotY awards to the likes of the Chrysler Cirrus, PT Cruiser, 2002 ThunderTurd, and early 2000s Malibu, right? I rest my case.
:lol:
I think I'm just chalking it up to there not being too many exciting new cars to choose from
Car magazines have always loved to pick cheaper competitors to industry standard models, which bumps their sales for a year or two until everyone realizes that they're really just a inferior product and wonders why they were popular to begin with.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 03, 2018, 09:27:44 AM
Incandescent blinkers = :facepalm:. Sure they can be jury-rigged for LEDs but such a thing portends of cheapness elsewhere, likely not easily detectable.
The brand new Escalade has incandescent blinkers. Blew my mind on a vehicle with such crazy fancy headlights. :confused:
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 03, 2018, 12:36:12 PM
The brand new Escalade has incandescent blinkers. Blew my mind on a vehicle with such crazy fancy headlights. :confused:
How about it being a $85,000 vehicle on a BOF chassis? There must be some fat profit margins on that beast.
Quote from: MX793 on December 03, 2018, 11:39:33 AM
This is the same publication that has previously handed out CotY awards to the likes of the Chrysler Cirrus, PT Cruiser, 2002 ThunderTurd, and early 2000s Malibu, right? I rest my case.
1983 Renault Alliance.
Quote from: Laconian on December 03, 2018, 12:43:19 PM
How about it being a $85,000 vehicle on a BOF chassis? There must be some fat profit margins on that beast.
For sure. Though to their credit, they aren't just Tahoes with leather, a few bits of chrome, and a different badge anymore.
Quote from: Laconian on December 03, 2018, 12:43:19 PM
How about it being a $85,000 vehicle on a BOF chassis? There must be some fat profit margins on that beast.
I really doubt there's any cost savings anymore to building BOF vehicles. It was true at one time, yes; but I doubt it still is.
Buick by another name.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 03, 2018, 12:36:12 PM
The brand new Escalade has incandescent blinkers. Blew my mind on a vehicle with such crazy fancy headlights. :confused:
There is some research to indicate the incandescent turn signals are safer, because that's what we're used to seeing, and that the square wave on-off pulse of LED signals actually sometime gets ignored.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 03, 2018, 12:54:55 PM
For sure. Though to their credit, they aren't just Tahoes with leather, a few bits of chrome, and a different badge anymore.
Really? Still same platform according to Wiki.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 03, 2018, 01:42:50 PM
Really? Still same platform according to Wiki.
Yes, same platform, but also much more differentiated than it used to be.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 03, 2018, 01:42:50 PM
Really? Still same platform according to Wiki.
The first gen Escalade was literally a Tahoe with a different grill, Cadillac badging, and a Bose surround sound system.
Quote from: MX793 on December 03, 2018, 11:39:33 AM
This is the same publication that has previously handed out CotY awards to the likes of the Chrysler Cirrus, PT Cruiser, 2002 ThunderTurd, and early 2000s Malibu, right? I rest my case.
COTY is supremely limited by the requirement that it must be "all new." Some COTY winners were 100% legit - '69 Road Runner, '86 Taurus, '03 G35, '16 Camaro, '17 Bolt, but owing to the artificial requirement, most winners are not legit. Thing is, a legit award would likely have the same car winning multiple years, greatly upsetting advertisers.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 03, 2018, 01:29:15 PM
There is some research to indicate the incandescent turn signals are safer, because that's what we're used to seeing, and that the square wave on-off pulse of LED signals actually sometime gets ignored.
Original implementations (DTS, B8 S4) suffered for that but new(er) LED turn signals seem to transition more softly, or are otherwise progressive (Mustang, new Audis).
It is suspect that the test happened at the Hyundai-Kia Motors California Proving Ground. I suspect they'll be invited for the next few years to keep testing cars here for free.
Escalade taillights are awful. They're retina searing.
Quote from: MrH on December 03, 2018, 02:43:10 PM
Escalade taillights are awful. They're retina searing.
They are; and something about how tall and thin they are messes with my focus; I constantly see two thin strips instead of one unless I actually look directly at them.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 03, 2018, 03:07:24 PM
They are; and something about how tall and thin they are messes with my focus; I constantly see two thin strips instead of one unless I actually look directly at them.
Never look directly at them. That's how they get you.
Quote from: MrH on December 03, 2018, 02:43:10 PM
Escalade taillights are awful. They're retina searing.
Everything about the Escalade is meant to be punishing to those outside the vehicle.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 03, 2018, 01:59:22 PM
Yes, same platform, but also much more differentiated than it used to be.
Quote from: Submariner on December 03, 2018, 02:16:56 PM
The first gen Escalade was literally a Tahoe with a different grill, Cadillac badging, and a Bose surround sound system.
Meh, is it really
that more differentiated than it has been since 2007 (third gen)? Even the 2nd gen (2002) was way more differentiated than the 1st gen. Sure, the center stack and gauge cluster are more different in the current gen, but I feel like that's giving Cadillac a lot of credit for a fairly minor change.
In other words, I guess you're not wrong, but it's not like Cadillac made some revolutionary change for the current generation - they're just keeping up with market trends. But ultimately, it's still a Tahoe with fancy bits - they're just fancier fancy bits.
Quote from: Laconian on December 03, 2018, 03:19:37 PM
Everything about the Escalade is meant to be punishing to those outside the vehicle.
The big weird jeep was still there, lurking peacefully under the trees and almost invisible in the mist and the hanging Spanish moss... It was huge, but it had no colour. It came from the factory with no paint – only a dull stainless steel finish that soon faded to a filthy shade of yellow and millions of tiny reddish pits all over the hood and doors and even the Panzer-style undercarriage.
"Theses holes are not rust," the pompous little factory rep assured me. "What you see here is priceless chemical development that was applied to the vehicle after fifty-five years of careful research at our secret Colour Lab in the Milanese Alps.. So you must be patient" he warned. "This process takes time. It involves the slow liberation of the Astro-Bacteria, which is frequently lethal to laymen. And which did, in fact, end the life of the tragic genius who first invented it, a man named Squane from Austria".
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 03, 2018, 01:42:50 PM
Really? Still same platform according to Wiki.
No shit. I mean besides that...the body/styling, the interior, virtually everything is different on an Escalade now compared to its chassis siblings. When they first came out, it was leather, a different grille, and different badges.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 03, 2018, 03:26:16 PM
Meh, is it really that more differentiated than it has been since 2007 (third gen)? Even the 2nd gen (2002) was way more differentiated than the 1st gen. Sure, the center stack and gauge cluster are more different in the current gen, but I feel like that's giving Cadillac a lot of credit for a fairly minor change.
In other words, I guess you're not wrong, but it's not like Cadillac made some revolutionary change for the current generation - they're just keeping up with market trends. But ultimately, it's still a Tahoe with fancy bits - they're just fancier fancy bits.
I think you need to go to a dealership and sit in a Tahoe and then go sit in an Escalade.
Fuck it, I have to ask. Do we really need another backwards looking sports sedan?
Another driver's car to drive. Where? Traffic? Way way way too fast on a back road? Track day? :lol:
New vs used is a little unfair, but enthusiasts don't give a fuck. $50K Hyundai, or M3, CTS-V, 911, etc, with less depreciation.............?
Meanwhile, still no sustainable revenue generating crossovers, and no show stopping high end EVs like that e-tron GT :wub:
How many times do we have to do the same thing over and over, and try to recreate a moment that's gone? The 2002 & 3 series succeeded because they were new ideas that were perfect for the time. Does this car jive with today? The whole exercise feels like a midlife crisis.
this thread is the reason why automakers don't make anything fun anymore.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 03, 2018, 03:42:11 PM
No shit. I mean besides that...the body/styling, the interior, virtually everything is different on an Escalade now compared to its chassis siblings. When they first came out, it was leather, a different grille, and different badges.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 03, 2018, 03:47:17 PM
I think you need to go to a dealership and sit in a Tahoe and then go sit in an Escalade.
I guess I just would have worded it differently. You're gonna need to give me a whole lot more than a few body panels and a few interior changes before I start considering an Escalade to be anything more than a Tahoe with fancy bits (not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that).
Yep. The interior is just new leather except for a new dashboard, instrument cluster, steering wheel, center stack, seats and door panels. All of those items except the seats require custom tooling that is dedicated to the Escalade.
Yeah, the interior is so different, it's essentially a totally different car from a development standpoint. Different instrument panel, substrates, manufacturing processes, everything.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 03, 2018, 04:40:30 PM
I guess I just would have worded it differently. You're gonna need to give me a whole lot more than a few body panels and a few interior changes before I start considering an Escalade to be anything more than a Tahoe with fancy bits (not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that).
So...virtually everything about the vehicle besides the frame and drivetrain is different...but that's not enough for you? I'm confused. You're putting way too much emphasis on the fact that they share underpinnings. All cars share underpinnings. Lincolns are Fords. Maybachs are Benzes. Audis are VWs. Lexuses are Toyotas. Acuras are Hondas. Cadillacs are, well, Chevies.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 04, 2018, 08:30:35 AM
So...virtually everything about the vehicle besides the frame and drivetrain is different...but that's not enough for you? I'm confused. You're putting way too much emphasis on the fact that they share underpinnings. All cars share underpinnings. Lincolns are Fords. Maybachs are Benzes. Audis are VWs. Lexuses are Toyotas. Acuras are Hondas. Cadillacs are, well, Chevies.
So you're saying that Lexus is nothing but a pimped up Toyota. :lol:
I tend to agree.
Pimping is good. My wife was not impressed by the Edge but loves her MKX. I don't think she realized they were the same car until a bit later.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 04, 2018, 08:42:15 AM
So you're saying that Lexus is nothing but a pimped up Toyota. :lol:
I tend to agree.
Yeah, but to write off a vehicle because it shares underpinnings is silly. Human beings all share underpinnings. But we're all entirely different. (Great analogy, righ?)
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 04, 2018, 08:52:29 AM
Yeah, but to write off a vehicle because it shares underpinnings is silly. Human beings all share underpinnings. But we're all entirely different. (Great analogy, righ?)
I agree. My Discovery Sport underpinnings were derived from the Ford D3/D4 platform originally derived from the Volvo P2 platform and is shared throughout many vehicles; some too embarrassed to admit it.
Quote from: giant_mtb on December 04, 2018, 08:30:35 AM
So...virtually everything about the vehicle besides the frame and drivetrain is different...but that's not enough for you? I'm confused. You're putting way too much emphasis on the fact that they share underpinnings. All cars share underpinnings. Lincolns are Fords. Maybachs are Benzes. Audis are VWs. Lexuses are Toyotas. Acuras are Hondas. Cadillacs are, well, Chevies.
And I don't really feel any differently about most of those vehicles, at least the ones that directly translate across brands. It's just semantics... not that big of a deal. :huh:
An S2000 is just a sideways Civic!
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 03, 2018, 01:18:48 PM
I really doubt there's any cost savings anymore to building BOF vehicles. It was true at one time, yes; but I doubt it still is.
I'm betting there is cost savings. Thing is, with BOF, it's easier (cheaper) to change body design since it is separated from chassis design - see the height of the BoF design period (post WWII into the early '60s) whereby every car was different by the year. When things went unit body, design cycles shifted to the 5-10 year cycles we see today. What with ever increasing homogenized systems (esp. safety and electronic) the savings is probably less, but my bet is it's still there.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 04, 2018, 11:48:33 AM
An S2000 is just a sideways Civic!
You shut your mouth!!!!
Quote from: 2o6 on December 04, 2018, 11:48:33 AM
An S2000 is just a sideways Civic!
Is that Texan "sideways" which means f'd up?
What I find interesting is that the base version is available with a manual transmission.
I find this interesting because... well... WILL IT SELL?
BMW has canned the stick shift for the new 3er heading towards North America because "nobody is buying them." As far as I am aware Audi does not offer a stick in the A4 anymore. What Acura product competes here and does it still come with a stick? It seems that very few people in this class want to row their own gears and manufacturers are thus justified in removing a feature that does not sell to the majority of buyers and represents a profitability loss.
So why does Hyundai offer a stick in a car which is... or at least to me... seems to be more luxury focused than sport? Seems to me like a weird move, a money-losing move! I just can't imagine someone who used to buy BMW 3ers with a stick switching over to a Hyundai Genesis G70 just for the privilege of rowing their own gears. Admittedly I've not been keeping up with reviews about this car but "sport" and "handling" and "fun" are not exactly words that come to mind when you hear the words Hyundai/Genesis.
I can't really knock MT's choice here. As I understand it their COTY choice has to be brand new or significantly revised, and it has to be a car. I think they are only allowed to choose a car once too. My pick would have been the Accord but I'm certain that was on the list already
Otherwise I mostly agree. The conditions necessary to enjoy a car like this on a regular basis is a fantasy for most people.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 06, 2018, 02:53:24 PM
I can't really knock MT's choice here. As I understand it their COTY choice has to be brand new or significantly revised, and it has to be a car. I think they are only allowed to choose a car once too. My pick would have been the Accord but I'm certain that was on the list already
Otherwise I mostly agree. The conditions necessary to enjoy a car like this on a regular basis is a fantasy for most people.
Previous year's winner is also in.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on December 05, 2018, 04:08:40 PM
What I find interesting is that the base version is available with a manual transmission.
I find this interesting because... well... WILL IT SELL?
BMW has canned the stick shift for the new 3er heading towards North America because "nobody is buying them." As far as I am aware Audi does not offer a stick in the A4 anymore. What Acura product competes here and does it still come with a stick? It seems that very few people in this class want to row their own gears and manufacturers are thus justified in removing a feature that does not sell to the majority of buyers and represents a profitability loss.
So why does Hyundai offer a stick in a car which is... or at least to me... seems to be more luxury focused than sport? Seems to me like a weird move, a money-losing move! I just can't imagine someone who used to buy BMW 3ers with a stick switching over to a Hyundai Genesis G70 just for the privilege of rowing their own gears. Admittedly I've not been keeping up with reviews about this car but "sport" and "handling" and "fun" are not exactly words that come to mind when you hear the words Hyundai/Genesis.
I think someone who has previously owned a WRX/WRX STI or BRZ/Toyota 86 who wants more refinement/luxury, would be drawn to a manual Genesis. I doubt Hyundai thinks they'll sell a lot of the manual versions, but any way to differentiate themselves in a good way from the German/Japanese establishment is a good thing. There's a small market but still a market for manuals. Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, Wranglers, Civics, and a few others still have substantial manual sales.
I'd wager the manual option is there first and foremost for a cheaper entry price
Its not 1993.... manuals costs manufacturers money
Its probably the box from the Genesis coupe (do they make that anymore)... but they still have to emissions/fuel economy/crash test this and take on the risk of a variant nobody will buy
Quote from: r0tor on December 06, 2018, 06:50:57 PM
I'd wager the manual option is there first and foremost for a cheaper entry price
Well you'd be wrong. C'mon, these things take like 30 seconds to check.
(https://i.imgur.com/AzmezPA.png)
Then it's just dumb... BMW has shown the actual demand for manuals is at the higher end of the performance range (ie finding the enthusiasts)
Who wants to trade a manual for 110hp... Lexus tried and epically failed with that in the IS
Quote from: r0tor on December 06, 2018, 07:17:31 PM
Then it's just dumb... BMW has shown the actual demand for manuals is at the higher end of the performance range (ie finding the enthusiasts)
Then when did they cancel the manual in the 340i?
We have to have facts. The manual is dying
Quote from: cawimmer430 on December 05, 2018, 04:08:40 PM
I just can’t imagine someone who used to buy BMW 3ers with a stick switching over to a Hyundai Genesis G70 just for the privilege of rowing their own gears. Admittedly I’ve not been keeping up with reviews about this car but “sport” and “handling” and “fun” are not exactly words that come to mind when you hear the words Hyundai/Genesis.
I've driven my friend's G70; "sport", "handling" and "fun" are pretty good descriptors. (Granted, his is a 3.3T.)
I
really liked the Audi A4 I rented for 10 days in October, but I can safely say the Genesis would have run circles around it and I doubt it's much of a stretch from Audi A4 to BMW 3-series.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 06, 2018, 08:27:59 PM
Then when did they cancel the manual in the 340i?
We have to have facts. The manual is dying
The manual is dying... Except for the small enthusiast population. Problem is that market doesn't want to pick between having a manual in an underpowered car and an automatic in a fast car - they will go elsewhere to find the manual in the fast car.
Even with the stick + big engine + available AWD the 3 series manual take was pathetic. You can get a decently equipped 340i 6MT for about what a loaded G7 3.3T costs... probably less with incentives... people still didn't jump. If BMW can't sell a 6 banger 6MT 3er for $55K to enough people to bring it back, what makes you think Hyundai can?
I'd wager for most enthusiasts, real life issues like bumper to bumper traffic trump the fantasies of rev matching a downshift + trail braking into a hair pin, and then getting the tail out on the way out. The daily commute is way shittier than it used to be for most people which renders the manual a no go
So if you are not going to offer a manual as a cheaper entry option - then why not offer it to the segment that *might* actually want it or just not offer it at all?
Not at all a suggestion that manuals should be brought back into the mainstream, but I just got back into the GTI after about a month of only driving automatics. I can now def say I will try my absolute hardest to stay in a manual car as long as I can. It's just more fun, even if it's objectively worse.
Quote from: CALL_911 on December 07, 2018, 07:30:21 AM
Not at all a suggestion that manuals should be brought back into the mainstream, but I just got back into the GTI after about a month of only driving automatics. I can now def say I will try my absolute hardest to stay in a manual car as long as I can. It's just more fun, even if it's objectively worse.
Yeah same for me. I know my 6MT is slower than an equivalent automatic but I enjoy it more. The occasional use of an automatic car always makes me appreciate getting back to a manual.
The traffic complaints mentioned by 12,000 RPM never really bothered me. I don't have much traffic now anyway, but even when I was living in Montreal, Toronto, and closer to Philly (where a ~12 mile commute could mean anywhere from ~45 to ~90 minutes) it never bother me either. using a clutch is so second nature that it feels weirder to me to drive an automatic.
Everyone has their preferences, but I think it really depends on the cars being compared. Going from a Golf R/GTI to a run of the mill rental car isn't really a 1:1 comparison. Plus some manuals are just not good. Every Nissan manual I've driven/owned was awful. So it's def case by case for me
Quote from: CALL_911 on December 07, 2018, 07:30:21 AM
Not at all a suggestion that manuals should be brought back into the mainstream, but I just got back into the GTI after about a month of only driving automatics. I can now def say I will try my absolute hardest to stay in a manual car as long as I can. It's just more fun, even if it's objectively worse.
I could see myself enjoying a
good shiftable automatic/DCT as much as a manual in a DD. I care more about being in the right gear at the right time than I do about about actually pressing the clutch and moving the shifter. That's most of my frustration with the auto in the Explorer - it's pretty smooth and shifts fairly quickly for a 12 year old automatic, but even after nearly four years, I still don't really like it's decision making.
The alfa is fun in manual mode but just has too many gears to really enjoy using manual mode in 90% of driving (especially since you can't skip gears).
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 07, 2018, 09:54:12 AM
I could see myself enjoying a good shiftable automatic/DCT as much as a manual in a DD. I care more about being in the right gear at the right time than I do about about actually pressing the clutch and moving the shifter. That's most of my frustration with the auto in the Explorer - it's pretty smooth and shifts fairly quickly for a 12 year old automatic, but even after nearly four years, I still don't really like it's decision making.
Yes.
I actually prefer torque converters, but I want to be in charge of the gear selection.
Quote from: r0tor on December 07, 2018, 10:16:03 AM
The alfa is fun in manual mode but just has too many gears to really enjoy using manual mode in 90% of driving (especially since you can't skip gears).
That's an 8 spd right? I remember driving my cousin's V6 TLX with a 9spd and while the first few gears were fun to use the paddles for, by the time you start getting into 5-9 you just get annoyed. You never remember what gear you're in and they are spaced so close that they feel the same half time so you have to drop down like 4 gear to get any sort of appreciable acceleration change but you can't skip so you space out as you just keep hitting the paddles and by the time you get the gear you want you've accelerated to a speed that needs a higher gear so back you go. Meh.
^ yea pretty much.
It's fine for when you find a good road and then are able to hold gears and only change a few. But cycling between 1-8 repeatedly? Yea no
The ZF 8 speed is a fantastic transmission. But if paired with a turbo engine with tons of torque, it would be even better as a 6 speed... But then that would lose the spec war
Quote from: Xer0 on December 07, 2018, 10:29:19 AM
That's an 8 spd right? I remember driving my cousin's V6 TLX with a 9spd and while the first few gears were fun to use the paddles for, by the time you start getting into 5-9 you just get annoyed. You never remember what gear you're in and they are spaced so close that they feel the same half time so you have to drop down like 4 gear to get any sort of appreciable acceleration change but you can't skip so you space out as you just keep hitting the paddles and by the time you get the gear you want you've accelerated to a speed that needs a higher gear so back you go. Meh.
I've never bothered with the paddles in my car. Just seems like a waste of time. Their only functional in sport mode and I haven't even bothered switching to sport mode. Why manufacturers think it's necessary to provide paddle shift in a SUV/CUV is beyond me.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 07, 2018, 10:25:51 AM
Yes.
I actually prefer torque converters, but I want to be in charge of the gear selection.
Me, too. I want a stick shift with a torque converter.
I like the manual mode in the Jeep for holding speed going down mountains and in shitty weather. That's really my only ever use for it.
Quote from: r0tor on December 07, 2018, 10:16:03 AM
The alfa is fun in manual mode but just has too many gears to really enjoy using manual mode in 90% of driving (especially since you can't skip gears).
Yeah, I could see that. Most of my experience with DCTs is my dad's A4 (7-speed), but I've mostly driven it around town, so I was mostly rowing through the lower gears.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 07, 2018, 10:37:55 AM
I've never bothered with the paddles in my car. Just seems like a waste of time. Their only functional in sport mode and I haven't even bothered switching to sport mode. Why manufacturers think it's necessary to provide paddle shift in a SUV/CUV is beyond me.
Most paddle shifters are infuriatingly disconnected from the act of shifting. Some just say screw you, human, I don't want to shift.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 07, 2018, 10:40:13 AM
Me, too. I want a stick shift with a torque converter.
Get yourself an old Chrysler fluid drive, circa early 50s.
A friend, way back then, had a Dodge with fluid drive and 3 on the tree. Weird setup. Leave it in 3rd gear and accelerate from a stop. Sort of like the Queen Mary leaving the dock.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 07, 2018, 10:44:36 AM
Get yourself an old Chrysler fluid drive, circa early 50s.
A friend, way back then, had a Dodge with fluid drive and 3 on the tree. Weird setup. Leave it in 3rd gear and accelerate from a stop. Sort of like the Queen Mary leaving the dock.
I've only read about them, but I think it would be sweet.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 07, 2018, 10:44:36 AM
Get yourself an old Chrysler fluid drive, circa early 50s.
A friend, way back then, had a Dodge with fluid drive and 3 on the tree. Weird setup. Leave it in 3rd gear and accelerate from a stop. Sort of like the Queen Mary leaving the dock.
:lol:
I launched in 5th in my old Accord once or twice just to see what it'd feel like. "Sort of like the Queen Mary leaving the dock" is a great description, and I'm sure it's even more accurate for that old Dodge.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 07, 2018, 10:47:44 AM
:lol:
I launched in 5th in my old Accord once or twice just to see what it'd feel like. "Sort of like the Queen Mary leaving the dock" is a great description.
But the smell is different.
One time I had to launch my motorcycle in 6th gear, because a bolt had backed out and was blocking me from down-shifting. Luckily there was a gas station right there so I could put the bolt back in its place.
It was surprisingly not difficult to get it going. 6th is barely an overdrive gear, though. Like 0.97:1
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 07, 2018, 10:46:18 AM
I've only read about them, but I think it would be sweet.
Shift reprogramming kits and manual valve bodies are available for most old-school automatics.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 07, 2018, 12:28:06 PM
Shift reprogramming kits and manual valve bodies are available for most old-school automatics.
Auto-manual valve bodies is the best. You can leave it in D if you're lazy, or shift it yourself and it'll obediently hold the gears.
Combine that with a 383 SBC and a 3000-3500 stall converter and you have a damn fun car.
What is the downside to a high stall TC on a street car?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 07, 2018, 12:28:06 PM
Shift reprogramming kits and manual valve bodies are available for most old-school automatics.
I'll get a manual valve bodied 700R4 for my GMC, and anything that I happen to do an LS swap in.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 07, 2018, 12:35:08 PM
What is the downside to a high stall TC on a street car?
God dramn revving to 3000 RPM before the car starts moving? Fuel economy? Noise complaints?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 07, 2018, 12:35:08 PM
What is the downside to a high stall TC on a street car?
Below the stall speed you're mostly just churning ATF. Yeah, you'll move, but not as efficiently.
Buick had for a while two-speed stall converters and they're still somewhat popular amongst hot rodders.
I believe my JGC has a fairly high stall speed. It tends to use it as a cvt and unlocks the torque converter to handle more load before downshifting... Results in a smooth mushy throttle response
lock-up torque converters (so, all modern ones) tend to have higher stall speeds.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 07, 2018, 12:36:14 PM
God dramn revving to 3000 RPM before the car starts moving? Fuel economy? Noise complaints?
I consider all of those positives. :praise:
(a lock-up converter basically solves the fuel economy thing)
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 07, 2018, 02:28:33 PM
I consider all of those positives. :praise:
(a lock-up converter basically solves the fuel economy thing)
And I want a manual switch for the TCC on the shift knob. Manumatic. Fuck computers.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 07, 2018, 12:35:08 PM
What is the downside to a high stall TC on a street car?
Mostly durability. Below stall speed much of the engine power is put into the ATF as heat, and it can quickly overheat an AT, such as cruising on the freeway below stall speed.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 07, 2018, 02:50:24 PM
And I want a manual switch for the TCC on the shift knob. Manumatic. Fuck computers.
Its possible. Some people hack theirs to do that with the Ford AOD, because its sometimes wonky.
I did not know old TCs didn't have lock up. Learn something every day
Quote from: r0tor on December 07, 2018, 01:02:26 PM
I believe my JGC has a fairly high stall speed. It tends to use it as a cvt and unlocks the torque converter to handle more load before downshifting... Results in a smooth mushy throttle response
The Jetta is like that. In fact, when accelerating from a stop, it doesn't lock the torque converter until you hit roughly 30 mph (which is just before it shifts into 4th). The sensation is similar to an upshift, but if you watch the gear indicator in the dash, it doesn't change. Then a split second later you'll sense another "shift" when it actually engages 4th gear. I attribute the car's horrendous city fuel economy to the lack of lockup at city speeds.
Quote from: MX793 on December 07, 2018, 03:30:08 PM
The Jetta is like that. In fact, when accelerating from a stop, it doesn't lock the torque converter until you hit roughly 30 mph (which is just before it shifts into 4th). The sensation is similar to an upshift, but if you watch the gear indicator in the dash, it doesn't change. Then a split second later you'll sense another "shift" when it actually engages 4th gear. I attribute the car's horrendous city fuel economy to the lack of lockup at city speeds.
Does it not lock up based on load, as in locking up 3rd for example and then unlocking/shifting to 4th and then locking? I believe that is how my wife's/daughter's '09 Escape works. It's a 6 speed and seems to lock up in lower gears in slower traffic.
Quote from: r0tor on December 07, 2018, 01:02:26 PM
I believe my JGC has a fairly high stall speed. It tends to use it as a cvt and unlocks the torque converter to handle more load before downshifting... Results in a smooth mushy throttle response
G37 does the same thing, esp. with the most recent AT flash. Kinda annoying IMO.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 07, 2018, 03:22:50 PM
I did not know old TCs didn't have lock up. Learn something every day
Lockup TCs didn't hit the scent until the 4sp ATs of the '80s. Prior, high stall converters were always a huge trade off.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 07, 2018, 03:37:00 PM
Does it not lock up based on load, as in locking up 3rd for example and then unlocking/shifting to 4th and then locking? I believe that is how my wife's/daughter's '09 Escape works. It's a 6 speed and seems to lock up in lower gears in slower traffic.
It will lock up even later if I'm accelerating hard. In "normal" acceleration (which is probably a tick slower than the average car around here accelerates to 30 or 40 mph), it locks at around 28 mph, just before shifting into 4th gear. Seems like it will stay locked if I drop below 30 mph, but if I dip into the throttle very much at that speed, it immediately unlocks again.
Quote from: MX793 on December 07, 2018, 03:46:23 PM
It will lock up even later if I'm accelerating hard. In "normal" acceleration (which is probably a tick slower than the average car around here accelerates to 30 or 40 mph), it locks at around 28 mph, just before shifting into 4th gear. Seems like it will stay locked if I drop below 30 mph, but if I dip into the throttle very much at that speed, it immediately unlocks again.
But will it lock up in 3rd under mild acceleration?
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 07, 2018, 03:47:54 PM
But will it lock up in 3rd under mild acceleration?
Not that I've noticed. When I'm driving the parking lot roads at the business park where I work (15 mph speed limit, I go no more than 20, have to slow down to 10ish for speed bumps), I don't think it ever locks.
Quote from: MX793 on December 07, 2018, 04:26:45 PM
Not that I've noticed. When I'm driving the parking lot roads at the business park where I work (15 mph speed limit, I go no more than 20, have to slow down to 10ish for speed bumps), I don't think it ever locks.
I was puzzled by all the times that it seemed that the transmission was shifting on my wife's '09 Escape. It seemed to have more than 6 speeds. I haven't done any research, but after 4th, it seemed that the converter would lock. Maybe someone knows.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 07, 2018, 04:32:12 PM
I was puzzled by all the times that it seemed that the transmission was shifting on my wife's '09 Escape. It seemed to have more than 6 speeds. I haven't done any research, but after 4th, it seemed that the converter would lock. Maybe someone knows.
The locking/unlocking of a torque converter can feel like a gear change. Were it not for the gear indicator in the dash on my Jetta, I'd swear it upshifts 6 times when accelerating up to highway speeds.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 07, 2018, 03:37:00 PM
Does it not lock up based on load, as in locking up 3rd for example and then unlocking/shifting to 4th and then locking? I believe that is how my wife's/daughter's '09 Escape works. It's a 6 speed and seems to lock up in lower gears in slower traffic.
The way I understand it, it locks up based on the delta between the engine RPM and transmission input shaft being below a certain threshold.
I havent noticed the alfa ever unlocking the tc while driving... It definitely makes for more of a sporty and manual feel
Quote from: GoCougs on December 07, 2018, 03:41:04 PM
Lockup TCs didn't hit the scent until the 4sp ATs of the '80s. Prior, high stall converters were always a huge trade off.
No wonder manual got such better gas mileage. I don't recall the G being lazy with lockup though
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 08, 2018, 05:44:10 AM
No wonder manual got such better gas mileage. I don't recall the G being lazy with lockup though
Manuals usually had an extra gear too.
Good info. I've not kept up with reviews of this car and they're not sold in Europe as far as I am aware. Hyundai is definitely capable of building a sports sedan. Still interesting that they are offering a stick in this car in a class where manuals are dying out.